Again, Unaware is necessary to stop Stamina, Beast Boost, and more. If you see an unaware mon just don't set up. Without it those abilities would be broken.
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Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]
- Thread starter Haaku.
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It doesn't make setup moves a waste, rather it's the main thing keeping Contrary sets at bay.
Unaware also means that Beast Boost + Moxie + Soul Heart stacking teams, like my current standard, don't get much use (Note: Excadrill still completely floors teams that aren't prepared for it earning +2 as it gets a free kill. Please prepare Exca counters, everyone!)
It also feels fair that, with all these offensive-ass abilities roaming around making teams eat shit, that Unaware stays to prevent the flood of SHIFT GEAR EVERYONE USE IT NAO DSYGVASGVYUAGAYUDB
imeanwat
Thanks to PrincessGardevoir for inspiring me to tryout MSPaintkeldurr on an actual team.
I just want to say I have been fiddling with this team for a couple days now and thought I would share it since I noticed an increase of Sand Teams in the tier. Hopefully the team is well enough for those who would want to try it out for themselves.
I just want to say I have been fiddling with this team for a couple days now and thought I would share it since I noticed an increase of Sand Teams in the tier. Hopefully the team is well enough for those who would want to try it out for themselves.
Garchomp-Mega @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endure / Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge / Dragon Rush
- Earthquake
Tyranitar @ Flame Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
Excadrill @ Flame Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin / Protect
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
Durant @ Flame Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance / Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head / Gyro Ball
- Shadow Claw
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch / Dynamic Punch
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endure / Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge / Dragon Rush
- Earthquake
Tyranitar @ Flame Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
Excadrill @ Flame Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin / Protect
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
Durant @ Flame Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance / Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head / Gyro Ball
- Shadow Claw
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch / Dynamic Punch
The team was made around spamming EdgeQuake while being able to muscle pass most physical walls. There are a couple of bad match ups that could be hard to play against but are still very doable. Misty Terrain, Grassy Terrain + Grass Pelt, Triage, and other weather teams make it harder to play the team. You should still be able to muscle past the terrains with Hustle + Sand Force + Guts (Grassy Terrain) without needing to spam Earthquake instead of using STABs/coverage. Triage is an interesting match up. Pangoro can be a problem if it gets the chance to set up.
To get the most of the team's offensive prowess you should almost always lead Mega Garchomp to ensure that you get Sand Force. Endure/Protect would be the best way to make sure that happens. It is possible to go for a more offensive play than Protect if you feel Garchomp will be able to live an hit from the opposing team's lead. You could also run Protect to on a couple other pokemon to ensure the attack boost from Guts. The team was made to muscle past most of the defensive cores in the metagame while keeping a lot of offensive pressure for other offensive builds.
To get the most of the team's offensive prowess you should almost always lead Mega Garchomp to ensure that you get Sand Force. Endure/Protect would be the best way to make sure that happens. It is possible to go for a more offensive play than Protect if you feel Garchomp will be able to live an hit from the opposing team's lead. You could also run Protect to on a couple other pokemon to ensure the attack boost from Guts. The team was made to muscle past most of the defensive cores in the metagame while keeping a lot of offensive pressure for other offensive builds.
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Wow, Haaku finally listened. Now there isn't any real Stall on the ladder and I can finally actually play. I would put more, but I'm in school and I don't have much. Maybe give a team? Sure why not.
btw keep that Magic Guard ban. Helps a lot.
Durant (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Crunch
Doublade (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Destiny Bond
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
Crawdaunt (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
Lycanroc-Dusk (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Tough Claws
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Stone Edge
- Drill Run
- Iron Tail
Tsareena @ Yache Berry
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
Ability: Hustle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Crunch
Doublade (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Destiny Bond
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
Crawdaunt (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
Lycanroc-Dusk (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Tough Claws
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Stone Edge
- Drill Run
- Iron Tail
Tsareena @ Yache Berry
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
btw keep that Magic Guard ban. Helps a lot.
Going against a flinch team unprepared really does suck as Misty Surge won't stop flinches, but I'm not entirely sure if anything would come up about Serene Grace as there's hard counters to it: Shield Dust and Inner Focus. It could still be seen as a hindrance to teambuilding as, if it's more prevalent than before, forcing teams to run these options isn't healthy to the metagame. I agree that it's uncompetitive just like SwagPlay was as it became a game of chance and that looking to ban it is a good move.
There's still Poison Heal with Unaware + Marvel Scale :P It's been weakened with Regenerator and Multiscale banned, but it's still a pretty strong stall. Hopefully the recent bans are enough to make it fair and not unwinnable.
Mega Blaziken just destroys you
Because 'nothing of importance would be lost' is an extremely opinioniated statement, and bans should have some form of logic behind it.
Banning Banette may not have at first, to me, looked like it'd have affected anyone, but immediately afterwards two or so people started messaging about the fact it's gone, and the fact it *did* have niche.
...'Course, if you've got some reason that you wanna see Serene Grace kick the bucket, feel free to state so.
Yes, because Prankster Destiny Bond has a niche. It is a legitimate strategy. Increasing the flinching chance from "something that is haxy" to "something that is around 60% and therefore quite random" is not something that should be encouraged. A 60% chance is neither something that is significantly small and therefore never appears nor is it something that appears almost always. It is in the middle and appears at random. That is just straight uncompetitive. Imo, it is farfetched (lolz) to compare it to something like Prankster D-bond which has a niche and is not unhealthy, whereas Serene Grace is just used to hax. There is no thought put into it, you literally just hope to flinch your opponent to death (preferably with a Scarfer). I just don't see a legit way to defend it and consider it any kind of niche for this Metagame. But I see how it can be abused to become uncompetitive. So I highly recommend this to be banned.
To start off, you are being quite salty for a strategy that I don't really see. Yes, people can run it, but there are strats to stop it. If it annoys you that much, run anti-flinch spam. Done. No more of it. But meanwhile, you are the only person complaining about it right now. So unless it actually becomes toxic, Haaku should check it and make a decision. Now, Prankster + DB is uncompetitive. With Mega Banette, you could run it with 4 other DB mons, and one sweeper and ruin whole teams. Nothing checks Prankster + DB. Not Sturdy or Multiscale can save you. Pretty much the only thing is a filler move, like Protect, or hope for some type of hacks to take place and it doesn't activate. Unsure how this does affect Dark Types though, so you can use that to counter-argue.
Quickly tagging Kris to remove the Emergency Exit ++ Regenerator and the Wimp Out ++ Regenerator thing. Since Regenerator has been banned from sharing, this has no reason to exist anymore, fortunately.
I'm just gonna say that mentality is incredibly flawed. If we ban something because it's "random" then that's setting a horrible precedent for bans. Serene Grace teams are gimmicky and not good, and it shouldn't be banned because it's "annoying" or "RNG dependent" or anything like that. That does not fall within the tiering philosophy's definiton of uncompetitive at all.
How..? I have never seen this and nevermind the fact that these teams are invalidated by Tapu Lele, but how? Can't you just click a status move on the Destiny Bond turn? It just seems incredibly predictable to me.
Serene grace is uncompetitive. It puts the game out of the players hands and forces about a 50% chance to move every turn which is not healthy.
Psychic Terrain doesn't block prankster dbond, and magic bounce is ran on these teams to prevent status. Psychic Terrain actually works really well with them because Hoopa-U is one of the best dbond abusers and it helps espeon hit hard along of course with stopping opposing priority. Doublade getting DBond means hustle fits on the teams easily too.
It's honestly a fun playstyle, but I haven't ran it since Mega Banette left since it worked as both a prankster donor, Dbond user and nuke in one.
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While fun, there are few ways to stop it. Even if you use a non damaging move to prevent fainting, you still will get attacked the next turn and DB will be on effect before that. So even predict when they will use DB wont work. The solution seems to be switch into something you want to sack and stay with mons that can counter espeon/lele/whatever the opponent has left.
I dont think serene grace is unbeatable. I had trouble against both sharpedo and weavile, but against scarf beat up weavile i feel even less prepared so the problem was not serene grace, just the fact that i had no weavile counterplay lol. Against sharpedo i just played horrible, but he can decimate offensive teams if he get 1 or 2 bite flinches in a row
I dont think serene grace is unbeatable. I had trouble against both sharpedo and weavile, but against scarf beat up weavile i feel even less prepared so the problem was not serene grace, just the fact that i had no weavile counterplay lol. Against sharpedo i just played horrible, but he can decimate offensive teams if he get 1 or 2 bite flinches in a row
I'll insist on adding EVs, Natures to the entire team, running Hydro Pump on Greninja, adding moves on Pokemon that are missing them...
No, I'm afraid that entire team needs a rework. Doing a challenge like this is simply not suitable for most Other Metas, this one in particular.
I like memeing, but at least when I'm memeing I'm trying to be productive while doing so.
Serene Grace isn't really uncompetitive. Jirachi is a complete monster, yet it's not banned. Since Skill Link is banned your only choice for Stench is Beat Up, which is a weak move with basically 2 good STAB users, only one of which actually gives you an ability. Otherwise you're stuck using Iron Head, Rock Slide, etc to flinch, which is literally what Jirachi does. I agree that Serene Grace flinch is no fun to play against, but it's not ban worthy. And it does have legitimate uses. Take the fun Poison Fang + Serene Grace team I messed around with a while ago. That uses Serene Grace legitimately in an interesting and fun strategy using rarely used abilities (Strong Jaw, Merciless, and Sniper).
As for Prankster Destiny Bond, I haven't seen Mega Banette being banned to Ubers recently. That's because Destiny Bond is predictable. You click some status move on the turn they will obviously go for it and make them look like a fool. With a good player it becomes a 50/50, which is honestly something that's missing from SP. There's no predicting, so this spices it up a bit. And it's just as broken as Sucker Punch.
Also Shoopz_Whisper, you mentioned that the Magic Guard ban helps a lot but you didn't give any reasons. As was mentioned that team does get 6-0ed by Blaziken, which is a lot weaker now following the ban. However, I don't see any reasons to keep it banned from the perspective of the metagame as a whole.
As for Prankster Destiny Bond, I haven't seen Mega Banette being banned to Ubers recently. That's because Destiny Bond is predictable. You click some status move on the turn they will obviously go for it and make them look like a fool. With a good player it becomes a 50/50, which is honestly something that's missing from SP. There's no predicting, so this spices it up a bit. And it's just as broken as Sucker Punch.
Also Shoopz_Whisper, you mentioned that the Magic Guard ban helps a lot but you didn't give any reasons. As was mentioned that team does get 6-0ed by Blaziken, which is a lot weaker now following the ban. However, I don't see any reasons to keep it banned from the perspective of the metagame as a whole.
I haven't really been involved with the vr before, but I'd like to suggest a few changes now.
A -> B
In a metagame where scarfers are extremely common and priority often doesn't work, Weavile doesn't really shine. Its main niche is as a Beat Up user, and that's just extremely unreliable. Weavile contributes nothing to a team and isn't really worth the slot. And even if it is decent it's definitely not deserving of an A ranking.
S -> A-
Now, Drill is the best way of reliably setting hazards. But honestly dedicating an entire team slot to just setting hazards seems like a waste. Now that Sturdy and Multiscale are gone there's nothing that you have to break with it. So honestly Excadrill is just a lost team slot.
A+ -> S
The loss of Magic Guard has hurt physical attackers a lot, making Iron Barbs and Rough Skin a scary prospect. Lele is the best anti priority mon, stopping Pangoro in its tracks, and it can really help offensive special attacking teams. Combined with Adaptability it's a force to be reckoned with, and can help support other psychic types.
A+ -> A
Without Magic Guard Blaziken lost a lot of power. It can no longer be a reliable sweeper or stall breaker when it takes recoil from Flare Blitz. With Magic Guard High Jump Kick was a 130 power 90% accuracy move, but without it's just HJK. Life Orb will also now give it recoil, so overall it's just a lot worse.
B -> UR
These are definitely not worth your mega slot. Immunity teams are honestly just bad, and these 2 don't even have a niche on Contrary teams due to the fact that they make you immune to your own bounced Sticky Web. And regular Latios should honestly go to C-.
B- -> B+
Crawdaunt is honestly an underrated Adaptability user. Although stall is a lot worse now, it can still function as an amazing stall breaker. The STAB combo of Knock Off and Crabhammer is extremely good, and it can punish teams without anti priority with Aqua Jet.
B- -> UR
See Excadrill but worse.
B- -> C+
Trapping Steel types isn't honestly that useful. Kartana will just kill you with Sacred Sword (unless it has no support abilities, which is unlikely), and the same goes for basically all offensive steels. Stall is less common so you won't see Celesteelas and Skarmories that much, and it's other niche, Sturdy, is banned.
A- -> B-
After the Regenerator ban, stall became a lot less common, and so did Stamina. That meant that the main reason for Unaware had become less prevalent, so Clefable only exists on a few teams.
A- -> B
Tapu Koko is extremely rare, only really used on Zap Cannon spam or Raichu Alola teams. It's just not worthy of an A- rank when it shares the space with extremely common mons such as Bruxish and Durant.
B- -> C
Again, Raichu-A is only really used on specific Tapu Koko teams. It's just as viable if not less so than Swift Swim or Chlorophyll users.
C+ -> B+
While it is worse as a Poison Heal user than Gliscor, Breloom provides a more offensive presence to Guts teams as well as Technician to other less used archetypes.
C -> UR
Skarmory is useless as a hazard setter due to Magic Bounce, and setting hazards aren't as important now that Sturdy and Multiscale are gone. And it also cannot provide Sturdy anymore. Or Weak Armor.
B- -> B
Trick Room is a lot better now due to all the fast HO that's running around right now. And with Lele being on every team, having a mon that walls it is extremely helpful.
C- -> UR
Hoopa-U just doesn't have a good enough speed tier to work well on HO, but it's not slow enough to work on TR. It also doesn't provide an actual ability.
In a metagame where scarfers are extremely common and priority often doesn't work, Weavile doesn't really shine. Its main niche is as a Beat Up user, and that's just extremely unreliable. Weavile contributes nothing to a team and isn't really worth the slot. And even if it is decent it's definitely not deserving of an A ranking.
Now, Drill is the best way of reliably setting hazards. But honestly dedicating an entire team slot to just setting hazards seems like a waste. Now that Sturdy and Multiscale are gone there's nothing that you have to break with it. So honestly Excadrill is just a lost team slot.
The loss of Magic Guard has hurt physical attackers a lot, making Iron Barbs and Rough Skin a scary prospect. Lele is the best anti priority mon, stopping Pangoro in its tracks, and it can really help offensive special attacking teams. Combined with Adaptability it's a force to be reckoned with, and can help support other psychic types.
Without Magic Guard Blaziken lost a lot of power. It can no longer be a reliable sweeper or stall breaker when it takes recoil from Flare Blitz. With Magic Guard High Jump Kick was a 130 power 90% accuracy move, but without it's just HJK. Life Orb will also now give it recoil, so overall it's just a lot worse.
These are definitely not worth your mega slot. Immunity teams are honestly just bad, and these 2 don't even have a niche on Contrary teams due to the fact that they make you immune to your own bounced Sticky Web. And regular Latios should honestly go to C-.
Crawdaunt is honestly an underrated Adaptability user. Although stall is a lot worse now, it can still function as an amazing stall breaker. The STAB combo of Knock Off and Crabhammer is extremely good, and it can punish teams without anti priority with Aqua Jet.
See Excadrill but worse.
Trapping Steel types isn't honestly that useful. Kartana will just kill you with Sacred Sword (unless it has no support abilities, which is unlikely), and the same goes for basically all offensive steels. Stall is less common so you won't see Celesteelas and Skarmories that much, and it's other niche, Sturdy, is banned.
After the Regenerator ban, stall became a lot less common, and so did Stamina. That meant that the main reason for Unaware had become less prevalent, so Clefable only exists on a few teams.
Tapu Koko is extremely rare, only really used on Zap Cannon spam or Raichu Alola teams. It's just not worthy of an A- rank when it shares the space with extremely common mons such as Bruxish and Durant.
Again, Raichu-A is only really used on specific Tapu Koko teams. It's just as viable if not less so than Swift Swim or Chlorophyll users.
While it is worse as a Poison Heal user than Gliscor, Breloom provides a more offensive presence to Guts teams as well as Technician to other less used archetypes.
Skarmory is useless as a hazard setter due to Magic Bounce, and setting hazards aren't as important now that Sturdy and Multiscale are gone. And it also cannot provide Sturdy anymore. Or Weak Armor.
Trick Room is a lot better now due to all the fast HO that's running around right now. And with Lele being on every team, having a mon that walls it is extremely helpful.
Hoopa-U just doesn't have a good enough speed tier to work well on HO, but it's not slow enough to work on TR. It also doesn't provide an actual ability.
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You don't know how mad I am right now. I just clearly explained and elaborated why it is a strategy that requires no thought process. And all I get is "git god, lolz". Serene Grace is an uncompetitive ability. There is no interaction when you get flinched to death. And I don't dedicate one of my important slots for a monster just to have Inner Focus. Serene Grace itself is not banned in Tiers like OU, because most monsters that have the ability are just not that extremely good offensively. But when you have something with Tough Claws/ Hustle + No Guard etc., with offensive Moves that 2HKO's almost anything, a flinch in this process is devastating. I really don't understand the mentality of you. Just because it isn't on every Team, doesn't mean it is not unhealthy for the Metagame. It is again one of those stupid strategies, where you either run the perfect counter to it and instantly win, or you don't. And in this case, if you don't run Inner Focus, you will be flinched 3 out of 5 times.
I really don't understand how RNG flinching is encouraged in this Metagame, but Prankster + D-Bond is seen as unhealthy. In this Gen, you cannot D-Bond as its percentage drops with every successive use. You can just use any other move instead (that'doesn't OHKO, like for example a status move) and the second one might fail. Yes, there are some 50-50 situations. But if you complain about these percentages, I don'T understand why you see 60% flinch as no problem. I really don't get it.
I don't think it matters if destiny bond is predictable or not.
The way it works is you Destiny Bond on a turn, if your opponent does not KO your mon, you use an attack on the next turn. You are likely going to be slower, which will keep your destiny bond active. If they avoid hitting you since destiny bond is active, you can hit them hard with a hustle boosted shadow claw. This forces them to attack into you when you set up destiny bond on the next turn.
You can basically have destiny bond up for like 16 turns in a row if you alternate between setting it up and attacking.
Setting up something like shell smash does absolutely nothing against prankster destiny bond. But defense boosting set up is harder to break through.
Destiny Bond teams use espeon to prevent stuff like spore and toxic.
Psychic Terrain only helps prankster destiny bond since it protects you from your opponent's priority and since psychic terrain does not prevent Destiny Bond from working. It also boosts espeon's psychic moves.
Espeon can use zap cannon (since Dbond teams like hustle + no guard) to break sashes, and move faster on the next turn. If necessary it can also set up moves like reflect with priority. Prankster + Reflect is not stopped by psychic terrain.
Hoopa-U is pretty good with prankster D-Bond, because with a focus sash, it can take out one pokemon, then it can remove the next with destiny bond. Hoopa-U also learns Focus Punch, which lets you move with -3 prio on the turn after you used destiny bond. Also, Hyperspace Fury hits through protect and substitute. Zen-Headbutt hits pretty hard with both hustle and psychic terrain.
The way it works is you Destiny Bond on a turn, if your opponent does not KO your mon, you use an attack on the next turn. You are likely going to be slower, which will keep your destiny bond active. If they avoid hitting you since destiny bond is active, you can hit them hard with a hustle boosted shadow claw. This forces them to attack into you when you set up destiny bond on the next turn.
You can basically have destiny bond up for like 16 turns in a row if you alternate between setting it up and attacking.
Setting up something like shell smash does absolutely nothing against prankster destiny bond. But defense boosting set up is harder to break through.
Destiny Bond teams use espeon to prevent stuff like spore and toxic.
Psychic Terrain only helps prankster destiny bond since it protects you from your opponent's priority and since psychic terrain does not prevent Destiny Bond from working. It also boosts espeon's psychic moves.
Espeon can use zap cannon (since Dbond teams like hustle + no guard) to break sashes, and move faster on the next turn. If necessary it can also set up moves like reflect with priority. Prankster + Reflect is not stopped by psychic terrain.
Hoopa-U is pretty good with prankster D-Bond, because with a focus sash, it can take out one pokemon, then it can remove the next with destiny bond. Hoopa-U also learns Focus Punch, which lets you move with -3 prio on the turn after you used destiny bond. Also, Hyperspace Fury hits through protect and substitute. Zen-Headbutt hits pretty hard with both hustle and psychic terrain.
From what I've seen, the Hustle + No Guard teams that are pretty common on the ladder run Durant + Doublade as the suppliers for that combo. And Durant is all well and good, but Doublade has always seemed underwhelming. Its typing doesn't save it nearly as well as it does in standard, what with everything being stronger here, and it's far too slow to have any sweeping potential. So when I went about making my own such team I decided to go with a more proactive option in Golurk, and it has quite honestly exceeded all of my expectations. Take a look:
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Shadow Punch
- Rock Polish
- Filler
Now at this juncture I should mention that I've been using this with Technician support, but I'm sure you could find something valid to put in over Shadow Punch (or use up the filler slot for coverage) if you're not using Technician. Beast Boost is also present, but honestly I'm of the opinion that (nearly) every serious offense team should run Beast Boost anyways. It's fantastic and there are some great donors. ANYWAYS. Golurk is actually pretty damn strong, and with fantastic two-move coverage using powerful moves, it actually has pretty considerable sweeping potential. It has the added bonus of never being revenged by Pangoro thanks to its Ghost typing.
If you're looking to try this out, I'd really just recommend swapping it in for Doublade or whatever your current No Guard user is -- it's only justifiable if the team needs No Guard for something. Give it Stealth Rock in the last slot if you feel that it's not pulling its weight, or Power-Up Punch if you wantto capitalize on things brought down to their sashes.
P.S. Sash spam is ridiculous, please do something about it. I'm running a gimmicky Serene Grace team just to have a shot at circumventing it, and even then I'M running four sashes!
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Shadow Punch
- Rock Polish
- Filler
Now at this juncture I should mention that I've been using this with Technician support, but I'm sure you could find something valid to put in over Shadow Punch (or use up the filler slot for coverage) if you're not using Technician. Beast Boost is also present, but honestly I'm of the opinion that (nearly) every serious offense team should run Beast Boost anyways. It's fantastic and there are some great donors. ANYWAYS. Golurk is actually pretty damn strong, and with fantastic two-move coverage using powerful moves, it actually has pretty considerable sweeping potential. It has the added bonus of never being revenged by Pangoro thanks to its Ghost typing.
If you're looking to try this out, I'd really just recommend swapping it in for Doublade or whatever your current No Guard user is -- it's only justifiable if the team needs No Guard for something. Give it Stealth Rock in the last slot if you feel that it's not pulling its weight, or Power-Up Punch if you wantto capitalize on things brought down to their sashes.
P.S. Sash spam is ridiculous, please do something about it. I'm running a gimmicky Serene Grace team just to have a shot at circumventing it, and even then I'M running four sashes!
After Testing in this meta more I started to see that I was mistaken and I agree that the problem is more from multiscale and sturdy so I'm glad it got banned
Anywho so this isn't another post about bans again
Golurk is fairly diverse with options with access to rocks, rock polish, speed lowering and confusion inducing moves in dynamic punch/bulldoze while still maintains hittting incredibly hard with its great stab combo when given some adaptability/tech support
It's a good alternative to doublade if u want more offensive presence and no guard compression in one slot although if u don't need no guard don't bother using it unless ur building some memey zap cannon team
Will share replays later if I can
Anywho so this isn't another post about bans again
I agree with Golurk being ranked, I find doublade sometimes lacking and doesn't do much in a match, it's access to priority isn't even that good of a upside thanks to Bruxish being everywhere, It's not a bad mon at all obviously but sometimes I find it mehFrom what I've seen, the Hustle + No Guard teams that are pretty common on the ladder run Durant + Doublade as the suppliers for that combo. And Durant is all well and good, but Doublade has always seemed underwhelming. Its typing doesn't save it nearly as well as it does in standard, what with everything being stronger here, and it's far too slow to have any sweeping potential. So when I went about making my own such team I decided to go with a more proactive option in Golurk, and it has quite honestly exceeded all of my expectations. Take a look:
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Shadow Punch
- Rock Polish
- Filler
Now at this juncture I should mention that I've been using this with Technician support, but I'm sure you could find something valid to put in over Shadow Punch (or use up the filler slot for coverage) if you're not using Technician. Beast Boost is also present, but honestly I'm of the opinion that (nearly) every serious offense team should run Beast Boost anyways. It's fantastic and there are some great donors. ANYWAYS. Golurk is actually pretty damn strong, and with fantastic two-move coverage using powerful moves, it actually has pretty considerable sweeping potential. It has the added bonus of never being revenged by Pangoro thanks to its Ghost typing.
If you're looking to try this out, I'd really just recommend swapping it in for Doublade or whatever your current No Guard user is -- it's only justifiable if the team needs No Guard for something. Give it Stealth Rock in the last slot if you feel that it's not pulling its weight, or Power-Up Punch if you wantto capitalize on things brought down to their sashes.
P.S. Sash spam is ridiculous, please do something about it. I'm running a gimmicky Serene Grace team just to have a shot at circumventing it, and even then I'M running four sashes!
Golurk is fairly diverse with options with access to rocks, rock polish, speed lowering and confusion inducing moves in dynamic punch/bulldoze while still maintains hittting incredibly hard with its great stab combo when given some adaptability/tech support
It's a good alternative to doublade if u want more offensive presence and no guard compression in one slot although if u don't need no guard don't bother using it unless ur building some memey zap cannon team
Will share replays later if I can
Went 41-6 and laddered up into the top 5 with this team (under the account "bad player x"):
The goal of this team is to CM with either Latias or Suicune until your opponent's attacks bounce right off them. Once you've collected enough boosts, hit back with +4 300 b.p. Stored Powers or +4 Scalds. Mudsdale lets both sweepers boost their defense and Gliscor prevents status from stopping them. Screens from Klefki let Latias/Suicune set up against high-powered offense teams. Unaware Clefable stops opposing sweepers and provides a backup win condition with either CM or Prankster Healing Wish. Stall is a lot harder to deal with, but you can try to break through with Stored Power Latias. Alternatively, PP stall them back with Pressure... or turn it into an endless battle once they run out of rocks.
Things I've considered changing:
Mudsdale @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 208 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
Clefable @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Healing Wish
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Play Rough
- Reflect
- Light Screen
Latias @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Roar
Suicune @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Aqua Ring
- Scald
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 208 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
Clefable @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Healing Wish
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Play Rough
- Reflect
- Light Screen
Latias @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Roar
Suicune @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Aqua Ring
- Scald
The goal of this team is to CM with either Latias or Suicune until your opponent's attacks bounce right off them. Once you've collected enough boosts, hit back with +4 300 b.p. Stored Powers or +4 Scalds. Mudsdale lets both sweepers boost their defense and Gliscor prevents status from stopping them. Screens from Klefki let Latias/Suicune set up against high-powered offense teams. Unaware Clefable stops opposing sweepers and provides a backup win condition with either CM or Prankster Healing Wish. Stall is a lot harder to deal with, but you can try to break through with Stored Power Latias. Alternatively, PP stall them back with Pressure... or turn it into an endless battle once they run out of rocks.
Things I've considered changing:
- 4th move on Latias - can be anything, but I like to run roar for insurance against other Stored Power + Unaware teams.
- Gliscor's set - feel EQ/Roost are mandatory, but I switch among Taunt/Knock Off/SD/Defog for the remaining moves. Doesn't really matter much, considering that the mons that do most of the work are Klefki, Latias and Suicune.
- Suicune - originally had Mega Slowbro instead to prevent offensive builds from critting me. I prefer Suicune for Pressure's utility against defensive builds, as well as its superior special bulk and typing.
- EVs - don't really know much about this meta, just slapped on some random EVs that seemed to have worked so far.
Now that the meta has finally settled a bit and there's no intention on retesting Magic Guard any time soon, I can finally throw some thoughts towards the VR!
First of all I want to recommend adding a bunch of pokemon to the VR that are currently unranked, but boast one of the best abilities in the meta.
Sheer Force.
Unfortunately the standard natural abusers of Sheer Force are pretty sad in this meta, with Nidoking honestly being kinda garbage due to it's mediocre speed, bulk and power all hurting it in this meta, and Mega Camerupt needing to mega evolve and only being viable on Trick Room teams. The ability itself though is quite phenomenal, giving a 30% boost to a plethora of moves as well as having brilliant synergy with Life Orb for a further 30%, allowing most pokemon to abuse it on at least part of their kit, and providing pokemon with not only hyper boosted STABs, but also extremely powerful coverage. Do note also that with Magic Guard currently banned, Sheer Force blocking LO recoil is super sweet.
Here are what I have found to be 3 of the best Sheer Force users that have somehow slipped under the radar.
Tauros is honestly so surprisingly good in this meta. As opposed to most Sheer Force users, Tauros has a great 110 Speed Tier, allowing it to out pace a bunch of threats and abuse its high power, with 100 Atk not half bad considering there are multiple methods of boosting it. This mon just has such good synergy with so many top threats, making it super easy to fit onto teams.
The classic Hustle No Guard core of Durant and Doublade appreciate Sheer Force boosted Iron Heads and in return give Tauros +1 Attack and perfect accuracy on Rock Climb, Fire Blast, Iron Tail and Zen Headbutt. Throw in Steel Worker and you've got some deadly power all around.
Tapu Lele is practically unwallable with Adaptability + Sheer Force, where as Tauros loves that Psychic Terrain boosted Zen Headbutt and priority immunity.
Just one more awesome ability to run alongside Tauros is Beast Boost. Not only does Tauros love Beast Boost, any offensive team with Sheer Force and Beast Boost as a foundation is already mad powerful, and has near on limitless flexibility.
I'd rank Tauros as high as B+
This thing doesn't need much of an explanation. It's mad powerful. Sheer Force + Adaptability + Drought with a Scarf and this thing's Flare Blitz can straight up 6-0 teams without Flash Fire. Watch out for sashes though. This is also another one where the Beast Boost + Sheer Force combo is crazy good, with Scarf Darm boosting its Atk on inevitable KOs just to make things even more dire. Particularly good with Blacephalon who froths Sheer Force and can abuse sun too if you're swinging that way. Unfortunately Darmanitan builds are more one dimensional and less flexible, with the Magic Guard ban hurting Sun teams and kinda making Rock Head near mandatory. Though you can switch things up a bit, Darm and Sheer Force are still really good even if they're not the focus of your team, so I'd rank it B-
I don't really understand why Conkeldurr isn't already ranked, I mean I've seen a bunch of these on ladder using Guts and it's pretty good at that too. Conkeldurr is one of few offensive pivots I see people using, running AV with a little defensive investment to sponge up special hits and relying on that ability beefed up 140 Atk stat to still dish out the hurt. Sheer Force Conk is just as good as Guts depending on what your team benefits more from, though I'd say a buffed Life Orb is often a better item than a Flame Orb. So if you're looking for a pivot and a bit of extra oomph on your team, consider Conkeldurr, Guts or Sheer Force. Anywhere in the Bs seems fitting.
Other thoughts:
S to A-
No, being able to set SR against Magic Bounce (especially with Sturdy and Multi Scale gone) does not make this thing the best pokemon in the meta, not even close. Honestly I could see it going even lower.
A+ to S
It takes so little support to make this thing impossible to wall outside of Special walls that resist Lele's STABs with Bullet Proof support. Lele is an absolute powerhouse and can run multiple variations in its sets as well as providing some awesome team support with the ever important Priority negation, boosted Psychic type moves and even more niche options like Psychic Seed all stacked into one.
A to B-/C+
Honestly the only Adaptability donors I consider this thing before are Gumshoos and Basculin. It's too slow for this meta, it has garbage typing and synergy, and being a Special Attacker there are very few abilities that benefit it. Z-Conversion is also pretty garbage with Unaware being common. I use Dragalge over Porygon-Z 9 times out of 10. Dragalge provides actual offensive and defensive type synergy, better coverage, and can pivot into special moves like a champ, while benefitting from more abilities like Levitate. Dragalge even hits harder with Draco Meteor than Porygon's Tri Attack.
Unranked to B+
Read Porygon-Z, Dragalge is legit good asf. Works super well on Bulky offence or Balance.
That's all I can be bothered with for now :)
Next I'll probably share a team or two. Especially seeing as the current Sample Teams still use both Magic Guard and Multiscale, as well as some good cores. Probably already aware but tagging Haaku. just to make sure you're looking to update that, seeing as we're not banning anything for a bit.
First of all I want to recommend adding a bunch of pokemon to the VR that are currently unranked, but boast one of the best abilities in the meta.
Sheer Force.
Unfortunately the standard natural abusers of Sheer Force are pretty sad in this meta, with Nidoking honestly being kinda garbage due to it's mediocre speed, bulk and power all hurting it in this meta, and Mega Camerupt needing to mega evolve and only being viable on Trick Room teams. The ability itself though is quite phenomenal, giving a 30% boost to a plethora of moves as well as having brilliant synergy with Life Orb for a further 30%, allowing most pokemon to abuse it on at least part of their kit, and providing pokemon with not only hyper boosted STABs, but also extremely powerful coverage. Do note also that with Magic Guard currently banned, Sheer Force blocking LO recoil is super sweet.
Here are what I have found to be 3 of the best Sheer Force users that have somehow slipped under the radar.
Tauros is honestly so surprisingly good in this meta. As opposed to most Sheer Force users, Tauros has a great 110 Speed Tier, allowing it to out pace a bunch of threats and abuse its high power, with 100 Atk not half bad considering there are multiple methods of boosting it. This mon just has such good synergy with so many top threats, making it super easy to fit onto teams.
The classic Hustle No Guard core of Durant and Doublade appreciate Sheer Force boosted Iron Heads and in return give Tauros +1 Attack and perfect accuracy on Rock Climb, Fire Blast, Iron Tail and Zen Headbutt. Throw in Steel Worker and you've got some deadly power all around.
Tapu Lele is practically unwallable with Adaptability + Sheer Force, where as Tauros loves that Psychic Terrain boosted Zen Headbutt and priority immunity.
Just one more awesome ability to run alongside Tauros is Beast Boost. Not only does Tauros love Beast Boost, any offensive team with Sheer Force and Beast Boost as a foundation is already mad powerful, and has near on limitless flexibility.
I'd rank Tauros as high as B+
This thing doesn't need much of an explanation. It's mad powerful. Sheer Force + Adaptability + Drought with a Scarf and this thing's Flare Blitz can straight up 6-0 teams without Flash Fire. Watch out for sashes though. This is also another one where the Beast Boost + Sheer Force combo is crazy good, with Scarf Darm boosting its Atk on inevitable KOs just to make things even more dire. Particularly good with Blacephalon who froths Sheer Force and can abuse sun too if you're swinging that way. Unfortunately Darmanitan builds are more one dimensional and less flexible, with the Magic Guard ban hurting Sun teams and kinda making Rock Head near mandatory. Though you can switch things up a bit, Darm and Sheer Force are still really good even if they're not the focus of your team, so I'd rank it B-
I don't really understand why Conkeldurr isn't already ranked, I mean I've seen a bunch of these on ladder using Guts and it's pretty good at that too. Conkeldurr is one of few offensive pivots I see people using, running AV with a little defensive investment to sponge up special hits and relying on that ability beefed up 140 Atk stat to still dish out the hurt. Sheer Force Conk is just as good as Guts depending on what your team benefits more from, though I'd say a buffed Life Orb is often a better item than a Flame Orb. So if you're looking for a pivot and a bit of extra oomph on your team, consider Conkeldurr, Guts or Sheer Force. Anywhere in the Bs seems fitting.
Other thoughts:
No, being able to set SR against Magic Bounce (especially with Sturdy and Multi Scale gone) does not make this thing the best pokemon in the meta, not even close. Honestly I could see it going even lower.
It takes so little support to make this thing impossible to wall outside of Special walls that resist Lele's STABs with Bullet Proof support. Lele is an absolute powerhouse and can run multiple variations in its sets as well as providing some awesome team support with the ever important Priority negation, boosted Psychic type moves and even more niche options like Psychic Seed all stacked into one.
Honestly the only Adaptability donors I consider this thing before are Gumshoos and Basculin. It's too slow for this meta, it has garbage typing and synergy, and being a Special Attacker there are very few abilities that benefit it. Z-Conversion is also pretty garbage with Unaware being common. I use Dragalge over Porygon-Z 9 times out of 10. Dragalge provides actual offensive and defensive type synergy, better coverage, and can pivot into special moves like a champ, while benefitting from more abilities like Levitate. Dragalge even hits harder with Draco Meteor than Porygon's Tri Attack.
Read Porygon-Z, Dragalge is legit good asf. Works super well on Bulky offence or Balance.
That's all I can be bothered with for now :)
Next I'll probably share a team or two. Especially seeing as the current Sample Teams still use both Magic Guard and Multiscale, as well as some good cores. Probably already aware but tagging Haaku. just to make sure you're looking to update that, seeing as we're not banning anything for a bit.
I was thinking about it and I think I might've had an idea that might make this meta more balanced/more strategic: when a Pokemon faints, its team no longer has its ability.
I don't know if this would completely redefine the metagame, but it would make battles more strategic by making it so players have to be more strategic about what Pokemon are fainting and how to keep their wincons going. Idk what else to say, some thoughts or feedback would be appreciated I guess
I don't know if this would completely redefine the metagame, but it would make battles more strategic by making it so players have to be more strategic about what Pokemon are fainting and how to keep their wincons going. Idk what else to say, some thoughts or feedback would be appreciated I guess
The biggest problem with this is the snowball effect, where getting the first kill goes a long way to outright winning you the match. Catch one key mon (say with a surprise Explosion against Poison Heal Gliscor), and the entire team falls apart.
- Status