Metagame Shared Power

Does anyone know why when I use Hustle + Compound eyes, I can still miss my moves? (This is with 100% accurate physical damage moves, like Bolt Beak)
I was going to say something about how you were adding the ability effects instead of multiplying them, but then I actually did the math and

100 * 0.8 * 1.3 = 104

they still shouldn't miss. The only thing I can think of is maybe you hadn't activated Compound Eyes yet? Though with that Cloud Nine glitch in mind, it's possible that you did activate it and the game just didn't notice.
I've tested compound eyes + hustle for a good 200 uses now, and it didn't miss a single time. Not sure what the issue is, but it's probably just you forgot to swap it in.
 
The Immortal Please quickban Fur Coat and Ice Scales so we can start actually enjoying this metagame. I know it's still early to say if they're broken, but given the top ladder is just filled with stall it's pretty clear they should be banned.
FurScales isn't fun to fight against, but it also isn't broken either, especially after Regenerator, Magic Guard, and Magic Bounce were banned.
With how Persian-A, Frosmoth, and Dubwool lack recovery, you just need play the patience game.
That can be accelerated by hazards, sand, Toxic, Taunt, and of course Pressure (underrated stallbreaker ability).
Also it's good to have a Ghost type (which is pretty excellent anyways with Dragapult also being good against Harvest Stall too) to avoid getting swept by Dubwool.
 
IceCoat/FurScales is super good, sure. But I think there's other pressing issues. Currently, Cloud9 isn't working correctly, and this is a big problem cuz it's a direct counter to all types of weather teams. Cloud9 being put in is crazy good for the meta, and would result in having the best counter for rain teams, which would be great (not to say that weather wouldn't still be prominent).
Steelspam is the biggest meta right now, as nothing is immune to steel, and when you stack it with three 1.5 times boosts (SteelySpirit, Steelworker, Hustle, Adaptability, Tinted Lens) and this means that you will almost always get a 1hko on even things with fur coat or fluffy (not both of em, but that's rare also protective pads are run on Excadrill commonly anyways).

Things that need to be looked at are FurScales for obvious reasons.
Speed boosting abilites for even more obvious reasons.
Fixing Cloud 9.
Tinted Lens? This would help with the FurScales ban going through as well.
 
FurScales isn't fun to fight against, but it also isn't broken either, especially after Regenerator, Magic Guard, and Magic Bounce were banned.
With how Persian-A, Frosmoth, and Dubwool lack recovery, you just need play the patience game.
That can be accelerated by hazards, sand, Toxic, Taunt, and of course Pressure (underrated stallbreaker ability).
Also it's good to have a Ghost type (which is pretty excellent anyways with Dragapult also being good against Harvest Stall too) to avoid getting swept by Dubwool.
Persian-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Roar

Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 136 Def / 120 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Stun Spore

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave

Mantine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Scald
- Toxic

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 80 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Energy Ball

Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
How do you beat this team ? Toxic doesn't work, setup doesn't work, pressure stall doesn't work as you're facing pressure. The only thing that can possibly break through is knock off spam + multiple hazards, which is 1) Pretty hard to get going 2) Hard to fit in many archetypes.
I built this team in like 5 minutes so it can for sure be optimized, but you get my point.

If you have to run multiple knock off users + sr and spikes on all your teams then it's justification enough to ban fcoat and ice scales. Can probably put some fluffy user over necro just to make sure.
 
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Persian-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Roar

Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 136 Def / 120 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Stun Spore

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave

Mantine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Scald
- Toxic

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 80 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Energy Ball

Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

How do you beat this team ? Toxic doesn't work, setup doesn't work, pressure stall doesn't work as you're facing pressure. The only thing that can possibly break through is knock off spam + multiple hazards, which is 1) Pretty hard to get going 2) Hard to fit in many archetypes.
I built this team in like 5 minutes so it can for sure be optimized, but you get my point.

If you have to run multiple knock off users + sr and spikes on all your teams then it's justification enough to ban fcoat and ice scales. Can probably put some fluffy user over
This is not what you are asking but here are a couple high ladder replays showing that stall is beatable and having to proactively play to stay alive.
1 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1091753658-eoiwnly7z04zmgolwqmksx0b1usyp2ypw
2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1091737944
3 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1091751602-utcf6wjbi0b2oej3xdws7jwteae7ciipw
I understand these are all the same archetype of team, but this is all that will be ran if fur coat and scales are gone.
Just because stall is annoying to play against does not mean it should be banned, it is not centralizing to where every single team has to be stall. This is like stall in any other meta, think for example gen 7 ou with m-sableye and chansey. Yes, some matchups will auto lose, but a team with the proper preparation actually has a chance with regen gone.
 
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IceCoat/FurScales is super good, sure. But I think there's other pressing issues. Currently, Cloud9 isn't working correctly, and this is a big problem cuz it's a direct counter to all types of weather teams. Cloud9 being put in is crazy good for the meta, and would result in having the best counter for rain teams, which would be great (not to say that weather wouldn't still be prominent).
Steelspam is the biggest meta right now, as nothing is immune to steel, and when you stack it with three 1.5 times boosts (SteelySpirit, Steelworker, Hustle, Adaptability, Tinted Lens) and this means that you will almost always get a 1hko on even things with fur coat or fluffy (not both of em, but that's rare also protective pads are run on Excadrill commonly anyways).

Things that need to be looked at are FurScales for obvious reasons.
Speed boosting abilites for even more obvious reasons.
Fixing Cloud 9.
Tinted Lens? This would help with the FurScales ban going through as well.
Honestly also didn't really have a problem with Steel Spam either. You are stacking so many attacking abilities that its pretty easy to outspeed and KO your opponent and unless you have Infiltrator or Unnerve, you can't do anything to Sub spam, but still, it is very good against bulky teams.

Persian-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Roar

Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 136 Def / 120 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Stun Spore

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave

Mantine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Scald
- Toxic

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 80 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Energy Ball

Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
How do you beat this team ? Toxic doesn't work, setup doesn't work, pressure stall doesn't work as you're facing pressure. The only thing that can possibly break through is knock off spam + multiple hazards, which is 1) Pretty hard to get going 2) Hard to fit in many archetypes.
I built this team in like 5 minutes so it can for sure be optimized, but you get my point.

If you have to run multiple knock off users + sr and spikes on all your teams then it's justification enough to ban fcoat and ice scales. Can probably put some fluffy user over necro just to make sure.
Patience and good play.
Knock Off can remove the Heavy-Duty Boots off of Mantine and Frosmoth, which would be devastating for Frosmoth if you then can force it out.
With pressure, that Defog only has 12 uses throughout the match, and the entire team's recovery goes from 56 (Recover+Wish+Roost+Morning Sun) to 28.
Also keep in mind, Hazards still exist even if Stall has Defog. Every time you get Stealth Rock up, that Mantine is forced to come out eventually, or else its teammates will be taking unnecessary damage.
Also that team is pretty weak to Machamp+Dracozolt
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Fur Coat Clefable: 333-393 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Fur Coat Necrozma: 222-262 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Fur Coat Celebi: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (1 Flinch or some chip damage and that Celebi is dead)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Iron Tail vs. +2 0 HP / 136 Def Prism Armor Frosmoth: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Mantine: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (That -2 is for Furcoat and it still 2HKO even with Prism Armor and somehow being at +6)
The only thing that could give Dracozolt+Machamp trouble is Persian
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But all you need is to have a Speed increasing ability.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Like honestly, forget about my original post. just Stacking attacking abilities should do the trick, and SteelSpam is probably the most viable answer to Stall.
 
Honestly also didn't really have a problem with Steel Spam either. You are stacking so many attacking abilities that its pretty easy to outspeed and KO your opponent and unless you have Infiltrator or Unnerve, you can't do anything to Sub spam, but still, it is very good against bulky teams.


Patience and good play.
Knock Off can remove the Heavy-Duty Boots off of Mantine and Frosmoth, which would be devastating for Frosmoth if you then can force it out.
With pressure, that Defog only has 12 uses throughout the match, and the entire team's recovery goes from 56 (Recover+Wish+Roost+Morning Sun) to 28.
Also keep in mind, Hazards still exist even if Stall has Defog. Every time you get Stealth Rock up, that Mantine is forced to come out eventually, or else its teammates will be taking unnecessary damage.
Also that team is pretty weak to Machamp+Dracozolt
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Fur Coat Clefable: 333-393 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Fur Coat Necrozma: 222-262 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Fur Coat Celebi: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (1 Flinch or some chip damage and that Celebi is dead)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Iron Tail vs. +2 0 HP / 136 Def Prism Armor Frosmoth: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Mantine: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (That -2 is for Furcoat and it still 2HKO even with Prism Armor and somehow being at +6)
The only thing that could give Dracozolt+Machamp trouble is Persian
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But all you need is to have a Speed increasing ability.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Like honestly, forget about my original post. just Stacking attacking abilities should do the trick, and SteelSpam is probably the most viable answer to Stall.
This is not what you are asking but here are a couple high ladder replays showing that stall is beatable and having to proactively play to stay alive.
1 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1091753658-eoiwnly7z04zmgolwqmksx0b1usyp2ypw
2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1091737944
3 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1091751602-utcf6wjbi0b2oej3xdws7jwteae7ciipw
I understand these are all the same archetype of team, but this is all that will be ran if fur coat and scales are gone.
Just because stall is annoying to play against does not mean it should be banned, it is not centralizing to where every single team has to be stall. This is like stall in any other meta, think for example gen 7 ou with m-sableye and chansey. Yes, some matchups will auto lose, but a team with the proper preparation actually has a chance with regen gone.
Ok I get it. Actually the best way to use them might be on bulky offense.
Cuddly Pressure doesn't work on recovery moves though, and Celebi just hard walls that dracozolt. Steelspam would probably be way more effective at muscling through this team.
 
Ok I get it. Actually the best way to use them might be on bulky offense.
Cuddly Pressure doesn't work on recovery moves though, and Celebi just hard walls that dracozolt. Steelspam would probably be way more effective at muscling through this team.
Sorry, I always thought Pressure decreased recovery moves as well.
But Celebi definitely doesn't Hard Wall Dracozolt here.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Fur Coat Celebi: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (1 Flinch or some chip damage and that Celebi is dead)
Literally from my post before. Something that Hardwalls something else definitely doesn't have to worry about a single flinch or some chip damage. Celebi does and is dead if either happens.
 
+ 2nd Gravity setter

What's more fun than Hustle + No Guard? Hustle + Gravity
What's more fun than Hustle + Gravity? Hustle + Gravity + Sand Triforce
Top it off with a bit of Gravity-boosted Grav Apple (120 BP) and you're all set!
This team (skeleton) just wants to click Earthquake and more Earthquake while sand and gravity are up, occasionally mixing in some Grav Apples or even Dragon Rushes for spice. While it doesn't get as many boosts as Steel+Steel, it has far fewer resists and ignores its immunities. And while it requires a bit more work and gets a weaker boost compared to sun and rain, Sand Force affects more STABs which are also themselves more spammable. Augment the team with Steelworker to spam a different move, throw in another EQ user for extra fun, add another booster like Crawdaunt, or even add Sand Veil just to be annoying. This team is not great, but it's good enough and hella fun.
 
IceCoat/FurScales is super good, sure. But I think there's other pressing issues. Currently, Cloud9 isn't working correctly, and this is a big problem cuz it's a direct counter to all types of weather teams. Cloud9 being put in is crazy good for the meta, and would result in having the best counter for rain teams, which would be great (not to say that weather wouldn't still be prominent).
Steelspam is the biggest meta right now, as nothing is immune to steel, and when you stack it with three 1.5 times boosts (SteelySpirit, Steelworker, Hustle, Adaptability, Tinted Lens) and this means that you will almost always get a 1hko on even things with fur coat or fluffy (not both of em, but that's rare also protective pads are run on Excadrill commonly anyways).

Things that need to be looked at are FurScales for obvious reasons.
Speed boosting abilites for even more obvious reasons.
Fixing Cloud 9.
Tinted Lens? This would help with the FurScales ban going through as well.
Fur Coat and Ice Scales do nothing with just a single unaware they can be countered a good deal of the time
 
The Immortal Please quickban Fur Coat and Ice Scales so we can start actually enjoying this metagame. I know it's still early to say if they're broken, but given the top ladder is just filled with stall it's pretty clear they should be banned.
Totally agree, this needs to be looked into. It's difficult to beat this kind of team and stifles any sort of creativity with teams and abilities. You have to use certain counters no matter what and even then, it's difficult to break through the bulk when people tend to take it to extreme stall most of the time. It's starting to take the fun out of the metagame a bit.

I don't think abilities need to be completely banned though. I'm all for Fur Coat and Ice Scales (and speed boosting abilities) but only if the ability isn't shared with the rest of the team, like it says here from 3 years ago: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shared-power-under-re-construction.3623341/

This is an amazing metagame and so much fun, but it's getting old very quickly and that's very unfortunate to see.

:)
 
I was looking at Harvest after this, but Leppa makes it completely uncompetitive. Harvest is now quickbanned.
Halelouja.

Now let's look at simple and unaware and this meta is getting close to some form of balance or at least counterplay being viable without it being "just run clefable lol"
 
Fur Coat and Ice Scales do nothing with just a single unaware they can be countered a good deal of the time
But if they have unaware too, usually the bulk is just too difficult to get through. Also, we shouldn't have to make sure we run unaware on our team every time just to counter ridiculous bulk. The abilities just shouldn't be shared, OR maybe you can only have one of those types of abilities (Ice Scales, Fluffy, Fur Coat) on your team that can be shared, so at least you can either hit on the special side or the physical side with good damage?
 
But if they have unaware too, usually the bulk is just too difficult to get through. Also, we shouldn't have to make sure we run unaware on our team every time just to counter ridiculous bulk. The abilities just shouldn't be shared, OR maybe you can only have one of those types of abilities (Ice Scales, Fluffy, Fur Coat) on your team that can be shared, so at least you can either hit on the special side or the physical side with good damage?
Unaware doesn't ignore Fur Coat and Ice Scales to begin with. Not sure what the argument being made here is. Fur coat and Ice Scales are countered by offensive teams having access to adaptability, tough claws, steely spirit, steelworker, Strong Jaw, Iron Fist, and whatever you can name. A lack of teambuilding for what is commonplace in a meta doesn't make it broken.


Broken: you need an unaware mon or you straight up lose to any player with the smallest amount of skill using simple spam

Broken: You need the most obscure ability in unaware to beat Leppa FurScales Harvest Sticky Hold Oblivious Clefable or rely on a freeze

Not Broken: you are heavily encouraged to utilize either offensive balance with 1 mon capable of dealing good damage on both sides of the spectrum so you can deal with general tanky mons such as fluffy bewear, snorlax, lapras (hydra stall), Avalugg (hail stall), Appletun (Harvest sta- oh wait), and so on.

Not boken: you are encouraged to utilize one of the many available abilities that prevent fishious rend from annihilating you. Due to the set-up needed for these teams to work with Vish, 1 slot is enough and Water absorb will help you against plenty of match-ups, not just vish.

Broken: Crawdaunt/Adaptability providing any and everything a 2x stab bonus for their best moves, best seen on Steelspam and Vishdaunt teams.

Discussable (as in, my opinion could change): Sigilyph giving Tinted Lens to everything. This game is meant to be about type-effectiveness, not type-effectiveness minus whoever uses tinted lens to just ignore that part.

Discussable: Lapras' Perish song trap. With Lapras getting 2x def and 2x spd from furscales, killing it is borderline impossible within the turn you have with perish song whirlpool, but as mentioned, carrying a water immunity is common.
 
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Unaware doesn't ignore Fur Coat and Ice Scales to begin with. Not sure what the argument being made here is. Fur coat and Ice Scales are countered by offensive teams having access to adaptability, tough claws, steely spirit, steelworker, Strong Jaw, Iron Fist, and whatever you can name. A lack of teambuilding for what is commonplace in a meta doesn't make it broken.


Broken: you need an unaware mon or you straight up lose to any player with the smallest amount of skill using simple spam

Broken: You need the most obscure ability in unaware to beat Leppa FurScales Harvest Sticky Hold Oblivious Clefable or rely on a freeze

Not Broken: you are heavily encouraged to utilize either offensive balance with 1 mon capable of dealing good damage on both sides of the spectrum so you can deal with general tanky mons such as fluffy bewear, snorlax, lapras (hydra stall), Avalugg (hail stall), Appletun (Harvest sta- oh wait), and so on.

Not boken: you are encouraged to utilize one of the many available abilities that prevent fishious rend from annihilating you. Due to the set-up needed for these teams to work with Vish, 1 slot is enough and Water absorb will help you against plenty of match-ups, not just vish.

Broken: Crawdaunt/Adaptability providing any and everything a 2x stab bonus for their best moves, best seen on Steelspam and Vishdaunt teams.

Discussable (as in, my opinion could change): Sigilyph giving Tinted Lens to everything. This game is meant to be about type-effectiveness, not type-effectiveness minus whoever uses tinted lens to just ignore that part.

Discussable: Lapras' Perish song trap. With Lapras getting 2x def and 2x spd from furscales, killing it is borderline impossible within the turn you have with perish song whirlpool, but as mentioned, carrying a water immunity is common.
I know that, it's more about if the opponent has FurScales and Unaware, you can't set up on them and if they're team is just all bulk mons, it's difficult to get through it, and it's boring. So the paths here are either hyper offence (Hustle, No Guard, Guts, Tough Claws, Adaptabiltiy etc.) or similar stall teams. Just seems two sided to me? If there is something I'm missing here, please do say, cause I can't think of a way to use more creative teams without losing miserably to a bulk FurScales Unaware team?

Fishious Rend isn't as much of a problem in my eyes, cause as you say Water Absorb/Storm Drain/Dry Skin are great for it, but it can be a huge threat with other add ons like adaptability. I wouldn't say it's broken though cause priority destroys it and there are other ways around it.

Sigilyth is less threatening to me compared to FurScales + Unaware, but I get where you're coming from.

Agreed with the Lapras set, that's an issue.
 
I think everyone here is realizing just how annoying stall is in this meta. We have a tier where you cannot use attacking moves and somehow this tier is still more stally than that. I don't think stall is "broken" because there are definitely ways to beat it, but they all require huge team building limitations that make you much weaker to other team archetypes, such as weather HO.

Fur Coat + Ice Scales turn already traditionally good mons into absolute hard walls. While yes, both Frosmoth and Persion-Alola aren't good mons, effectively doubling the health of your entire team completely validates putting them on any stall team. Stall is made even better by the fact that Unaware is not banned. With Unaware on the enemy team, all of your set-up based stallbreakers become pointless. While Unaware doesn't ignore power boosting abilities or items, it can still make every game halt to a near complete stop instantly. Lapras is also a point of discussion since it becomes able to remove most problem mons for a stall team/

Another ability to mention is Pressure. Probably not broken, but Corviknight is a pretty popular mon for it's movepool, typing, and stats, so this ability isn't very uncommon. I did go against multiple teams where they were built around PP stalling, and while Regenerator and Magic Guard were banned, this is still very annoying to go against. While Pressure can be run against stall teams to help counteract this, it just doesn't seem good to keep an ability around that could often lead to games ending with Struggling back and forth. Again, probably not broken, but definitely seems unhealthy for the metagame on paper.

Simple seems very powerful but is turned into a complete gamble to have on your team because of Unaware. Unaware makes every set up spam team pointless. If Unaware is banned, Simple should also be banned alongside it.

Weather is really strong. Rain is probably the best because it has great mons like Crawdaunt and Dracovish. A water immunity can be run, which is generally a good way to slow down rain teams, but it's still not fun to lose to a rain team because you didn't have a water immunity. The same can be said about sun teams, which run great mons like Darmanitan and Rotom-Heat. The problem with these team archetypes is that they form what is basically a game of chance. A game can be lost at team preview if your team isn't packing [insert mon here]. Obviously it's impossible to make any team that can counter every other team, but you can typically try to have a good matchup spread with as many mons in the tier as possible. With the current state of the meta, almost every team is stall, weather, or a ton of boosting abilities. It's very difficult to cover all of these matchups in a team, as typically you need mons that are not that good and waste a team slot. An example is Cloud Nine on Drampa. Drampa isn't incredibly useful in an OU based tier, and I shouldn't have to explain why. Same with immunities, but there are actually good mons with immunities.

All of these factors have caused one very noticeable trait on the ladder. There isn't a whole lot of team diversity, and there is very clearly amazing must have abilities/mons on specific team archetypes. I think the tier is super fun, but it definitely needs a couple things banned. I really am unsure on what I would ban about weather, if anything at all. I love weather teams, but they destroy many teams that are unprepared, which is many. Right now it's probably Rain>Sun>Sand>Hail, but it's still very difficult to prepare for all of them. Obviously hail sucks but if Unaware gets banned Veil HO teams could become the new wave with Simple, and MAYBE Slush Rush.

These are just my thoughts on the current metagame, I love this tier, but damn does it have some issues. Weather is ALWAYS polarizing in Pokemon, and so is stall. I think there are some weather abusers that should be looked at a bit closer, and I think Unaware + Simple should be banned. After Unaware gets banned THEN I would look at Fur Coat + Ice Scales since many stall teams could be broken down by a set-up stallbreaker at this point. With these bans/changes I think it will be a much healthier metagame with less restrictions on teambuilding.
 
I changed my mind, Fur Coat and Ice Scales might not be broken. However the more the meta evolve, the more physical attacks dominate special attacks. This maks the combination of Fur Coat + Fluffy broken in my opinion. I'd ban Fur Coat of the two.
 
I think everyone here is realizing just how annoying stall is in this meta. We have a tier where you cannot use attacking moves and somehow this tier is still more stally than that. I don't think stall is "broken" because there are definitely ways to beat it, but they all require huge team building limitations that make you much weaker to other team archetypes, such as weather HO.

Fur Coat + Ice Scales turn already traditionally good mons into absolute hard walls. While yes, both Frosmoth and Persion-Alola aren't good mons, effectively doubling the health of your entire team completely validates putting them on any stall team. Stall is made even better by the fact that Unaware is not banned. With Unaware on the enemy team, all of your set-up based stallbreakers become pointless. While Unaware doesn't ignore power boosting abilities or items, it can still make every game halt to a near complete stop instantly. Lapras is also a point of discussion since it becomes able to remove most problem mons for a stall team/

Another ability to mention is Pressure. Probably not broken, but Corviknight is a pretty popular mon for it's movepool, typing, and stats, so this ability isn't very uncommon. I did go against multiple teams where they were built around PP stalling, and while Regenerator and Magic Guard were banned, this is still very annoying to go against. While Pressure can be run against stall teams to help counteract this, it just doesn't seem good to keep an ability around that could often lead to games ending with Struggling back and forth. Again, probably not broken, but definitely seems unhealthy for the metagame on paper.

Simple seems very powerful but is turned into a complete gamble to have on your team because of Unaware. Unaware makes every set up spam team pointless. If Unaware is banned, Simple should also be banned alongside it.

Weather is really strong. Rain is probably the best because it has great mons like Crawdaunt and Dracovish. A water immunity can be run, which is generally a good way to slow down rain teams, but it's still not fun to lose to a rain team because you didn't have a water immunity. The same can be said about sun teams, which run great mons like Darmanitan and Rotom-Heat. The problem with these team archetypes is that they form what is basically a game of chance. A game can be lost at team preview if your team isn't packing [insert mon here]. Obviously it's impossible to make any team that can counter every other team, but you can typically try to have a good matchup spread with as many mons in the tier as possible. With the current state of the meta, almost every team is stall, weather, or a ton of boosting abilities. It's very difficult to cover all of these matchups in a team, as typically you need mons that are not that good and waste a team slot. An example is Cloud Nine on Drampa. Drampa isn't incredibly useful in an OU based tier, and I shouldn't have to explain why. Same with immunities, but there are actually good mons with immunities.

All of these factors have caused one very noticeable trait on the ladder. There isn't a whole lot of team diversity, and there is very clearly amazing must have abilities/mons on specific team archetypes. I think the tier is super fun, but it definitely needs a couple things banned. I really am unsure on what I would ban about weather, if anything at all. I love weather teams, but they destroy many teams that are unprepared, which is many. Right now it's probably Rain>Sun>Sand>Hail, but it's still very difficult to prepare for all of them. Obviously hail sucks but if Unaware gets banned Veil HO teams could become the new wave with Simple, and MAYBE Slush Rush.

These are just my thoughts on the current metagame, I love this tier, but damn does it have some issues. Weather is ALWAYS polarizing in Pokemon, and so is stall. I think there are some weather abusers that should be looked at a bit closer, and I think Unaware + Simple should be banned. After Unaware gets banned THEN I would look at Fur Coat + Ice Scales since many stall teams could be broken down by a set-up stallbreaker at this point. With these bans/changes I think it will be a much healthier metagame with less restrictions on teambuilding.
Noooo thanks.
Banning furscales just means every diversity in the meta dies and becomes "what HO RPS wins?" (will elaborate later. maybe.)

Furscales on its own is a natural byproduct of the offensive abilities available to players. Banning it will just lead to those abilities going rampant without any form of consistency in a game or a session of games. It is impossible wall Adap Steely Steelworker or Strong Jaw Tough Claws mons when you dont have defense boosting abilities. And even when you do, they still clean KO.
It'd be ridiculous

I changed my mind, Fur Coat and Ice Scales might not be broken. However the more the meta evolve, the more physical attacks dominate special attacks. This maks the combination of Fur Coat + Fluffy broken in my opinion. I'd ban Fur Coat of the two.
Fluffy only protects against contact moves, and makes you weak to fire. It's not hard to circumvent.
Run a fire-type. Or a fire-type move. If they have a flash fire mon, then they already allocated 3 of their slots into mons that aren't gonna be pulling their weight to begin with (assuming furscales + fluffy) or 4 if you run my defense stall which runs Milotic w/ marvel scale too.
it's not because something is dominant that it's broken.
 
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Bit late, but I don't really see why Regenerator was banned while Fur Coat + Ice Scales remain. FurScales aren't broken by themselves, but I believe Unaware pushes it to an unhealthy degree, as you can't rely on setup to break stall, and thereby mandates a lots of abilities like Hustle, Guts, Adaptability etc, which restricts team building too much. Unaware is a crucial component to stall's consistency, whereas I do not think FurScales is.

I believe FurScales is also one of the main things responsible for making SP such a matchup based meta in its current state. I've personally run HO, and pretty much just forfeit straight away in the stall matchup. However, I rarely ever lose to the sort of offense teams that can beat stall. I don't exactly think this is desirable for a meta, and banning FurScales is the first step to balance this. We shouldn't be afraid to ban it because it might lead to offense teams being too powerful or whatever, that's a slipperly slope argument! We shouldn't be needing to check broken with broken. SP is a meta which I came into with the complete expectation of a bunch of things being banned before it would become balanced.

Regenerator being banned also confused me. The presence of Regenerator meant you could add more unconventional pokemon, who might lack reliable recovery, to the team. This would mean stall could vary more, as well as adapt a lot better to changes in the meta.

I believe the reasoning behind the ban was 1000 turn battles in the stall vs. stall matchup? I personally think that's a problem with bad team building, especially now that Magic Bounce has been banned.

Pyukumuku is a good example of a good stallbreaker that can fit easily on stall, as it shares Unaware. It can trap opposing pokemon with Block and procede to kill them off with Soak + Toxic, or PP stall with Spite + Rest.

Corviknight can share Pressure and team mates can run trapping moves like Block or Mean Look to PP stall them. Even binding moves would work! There are plenty of bulky pokemon that get these trapping and binding moves, and because abilites like Unaware gets shared, you actually have room to run them! If FurScales gets banned, then that also essentially opens up two slots to add in defensive stallbreakers.

I'm sure people can think of many more ways to stallbreak as well, but I think banning Regenerator without really testing anything after the Magic Bounce ban wasn't the ideal thing to do. Regenerator definitely is a very powerful ability, and if it does get banned, I would like to see so after the meta has attempted to adjust to it.

Also, please discourage one-liners from being posted like other threads do :c
 

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