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I think what everyone needs to remember is when discussing what needs to be banned, we cannot rely on slippery slope arguments. 'If we ban X, then Y will be too overpowered!' is not a valid argument; what we should ban is what is currently over-centralizing or broken. If that leads to something else being over-centralizing or broken, then we deal with it then and there, separately to other, or the prospect of other, bans. If we're keeping something purely because it keeps things in check, rather than because its a healthy element of the metagame, there's a problem.
Except this is only the case in more balanced metagames, where this one is brand new and unbalanced. For example in OU they ban with that mentality, only what's broken and the rest will sort itself out. Well that's only because they have already weeded out most of the broken stuff. Banning one HO mon like galarian-darm does mean that HO no longer works. Banning m-sableye in gen 7 does not mean that stall no longer works. That's not the case here, where the banning of certain things will undoubtedly create glaring holes in team building not by not allowing for the full range of archetypes. This is not like banning a broken mon, it is all 6 mons drastically affected. Yes the example that banning fur coat will allow steely adapt steelworker to run rampant is a slippery slope, but it is the only thing preventing physical spam to be the norm. That is completely valid. The banning is for balance, we are banning abilities that affect whole team archetypes, we are not banning broken mons; therefore, the repercussions of every ban should be considered in terms of making X and Y more broken.
To reply to Ztest, banning an over-centralizing or broken aspect of a meta is how you balance a metagame. To that end, you cannot argue for or against the banning of something by trying to argue that it will make something else over-centralizing or broken. That is simply not a good way to do things - you're relying on something hypothetical. What you can however do is look at what is currently happening.
Some people are looking at the current state of things and saying FurScales is broken and should be banned. You can argue against it by making a case that it is not broken; you can absolutely do that! But you cannot argue against it by saying something like 'it would make HO too OP'. Slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy for a reason - they are complete speculation and use arguments based on a hypothetical situation.
EDIT: 'But it's obvious if we ban X, then Y will be too OP, do we ban Y too? We can't just ban everything!' Everyone, please, please, remember that nothing in metagames have such a simple relationship. 'But it's obvious if we ban Fur Coat, then SteelSpam will be too OP, do we ban SteelSpam too?' We don't know that; we don't know that. Banning Fur Coat might open up viability for a bunch of physical pokemon which have a good matchup against SteelSpam, and it might turn out SteelSpam goes down in viability. This is a very real possibility. But it could also go the opposite way; there are too many factors at play for anyone to make an accurate judgement. We cannot think that in any metagame, anything will have such a simple one-to-one relationship, and as such use slippery slope arguments.
To reply to Ztest, banning an over-centralizing or broken aspect of a meta is how you balance a metagame. To that end, you cannot argue for or against the banning of something by trying to argue that it will make something else over-centralizing or broken. That is simply not a good way to do things - you're relying on something hypothetical. What you can however do is look at what is currently happening.
Some people are looking at the current state of things and saying FurScales is broken and should be banned. You can argue against it by making a case that it is not broken; you can absolutely do that! But you cannot argue against it by saying something like 'it would make HO too OP'. Slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy for a reason - they are complete speculation and use arguments based on a hypothetical situation.
Yes I understand that it is a logical fallacy, it is not an argument I am making or have made. I am saying that is a valid point to consider, fallacy or not. My hypothesis is based off lots of game experience, and I am sure many of the arguments here are. I do not like bans, and would like to see as little bans as possible. One ban leading to several more makes the game more stable yes, but it also takes away more stuff to use. That is what gives this metagame flavor, everything is potentially broken if used properly. We can keep banning stuff one at a time, but it will end up with a very long list of bans, each one rising to the top and getting trimmed. You are correct, that is how you balance a meta. That process will end up with a perfectly balanced meta, but also an extremely long banlist. This is only around for one month and probably not back till next year, we would be banning stuff for months to get this meta to full 100% competitive. All I wanna do is be able to use any type of team and be able to beat any type of team, this meta will not achieve perfect balance.
Something from last shared power to play around with. It's strategy is to use prankster destiny bond then attack when slower, so you usually have destiny bond up. The Destiny Bond users on the team need to be able to hit hard enough to force the opponent to attack into you.
Delibird has a really cool movepool. Focus Punch and Counter can let you move slower. Rapid Spin is an option. Drill Peck and Ice Punch for STAB. Spikes for Support. And it also learns Destiny Bond. Aurora veil can be used in hail teams.
Grimsnarl makes use of the extra attack boost, can set up screens, can also use taunt and thunder wave.
Doublade is a slow no guard user that happens to have destiny bond.
The rest of the team should probably focus on combating ways to stop your strategy. Magic Bounce used to be used to prevent
a lot of status, but since it's banned, other abilities should be considered. In order to stop priority, tsareena could be a good choice.
To reply to Ztest, uh, I ended editing my post to have a response for your post 1 minute before you actually posted it. Am I a psychic?
But yes, I understand where you're coming from, but the slippery slope argument is the fallacy I've found most people have the most trouble understanding why exactly its a fallacy. If it they were only two factors at play, then it wouldn't be a fallacy. However, because there are more than two factors at play (many, many more) there simply is no accurate way for anyone to predict anything as we can't take into account only the direct impact something will have, but all the indirect impacts it will have as well - which rarely anyone does.
EDIT: Adding in a combo I've had fun on the ladder with so that I'm actually talking about Shared Power
Mimikyu @ Air Balloon
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Resort
- Swords Dance
Hawlucha @ Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sky Attack
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
The basic idea is that you setup Unburden + Pixilate, and then bring in Mimikyu as a lategame sweeper. Mimikyu can setup an SD and activate Unburden safely thanks to Disguise, and then procede to spam STAB 168 BP Last Resort's. You can adapt Hawlucha and Sylveon however you like, I just like using Sky Attack Hawlucha cause its fun, and Magic Coat + Eject Button Sylveon guarantees hazards off and a safe switch into whatever as a lead. I also had Endure + Weakness Policy Tsareena as team mate to prevent revenge via prioity. Surprisingly, it pulled its weight as Pixilate Rapid Spin was really helpful in keeping hazards off, even in the face of Doublade, and Unburden even let it sweep a rain team after tanking a Hurricane with Endure.
Uh, I ended editing my post to have a response for your post 1 minute before you actually posted it. Am I a psychic?
But yes, I understand where you're coming from, but the slippery slope argument is the fallacy I've found most people have the most trouble understanding why exactly its a fallacy. If it they were only two factors at play, then it wouldn't be a fallacy. However, because there are more than two factors at play (many, many more) there simply is no accurate way for anyone to predict anything as we can't take into account only the direct impact something will have, but all the indirect impacts it will have as well - which rarely anyone does.
I am very glad you know fallacies well, and I appreciate you explaining it more. But I do believe this issue, to use the example of fur coat, is a lot more black and white than you are painting. In this meta, it is easy to predict what will happen, there is not many, many factors as you are saying. It is not a one-to-one like you are saying, but there is not a lot of other things that can happen. When fur coat gets banned, steely worker adapt tinted will be one of the best things. If not, another combination of physical abilities will reign alongside steely. That's the two options, there is not this huge group of things that can happen. This may just be a prediction, but is also accurate observation of how good it is already with double defense. You are saying there is no accurate way to predict how things will change, but that's not fully true. I could've told you how any of these bans would change the meta before they happened, and I can tell you how banning anything right now will change it. I'm not saying I know everything or even how the actual meta will change, I just dont believe it is farfetched to think that the most likely outcome will be the outcome.
Okay Ztest, the point where I'm starting to lose respect for you is when you blatantly admit you're arguing for a fallacy, but think everything is simple enough that it's okay to do so anyway. No, it's not that simple. I don't intend on arguing any further than this post, as I believe that it would only lead to me repeating my own points.
'If Fur Coat was banned, there would be two dominant playstyles, SteelSpam or not-SteelSpam.' It is clear to see that that is not a meaningful point. And even if it wasn't such a redundant point, it still wouldn't matter. We're talking about bans. There are two things a pokemon or ability can be within this context; ban-worthy or not-ban-worthy. Two options regardless, andI never said anything saying denying this.
What I did say was unpredictable is whether a ban will cause something else to become ban-worthy. Banning X might benefit Y.
'Y was already really good, but with X banned, it'll be broken!'
Unfortunately, it will never be this simple. Banning X might also benefit A, B, and C, and be detrimental to D, E and F. A becoming more viable might be beneficial to A's checks in B, D and F, and detrimental to C, Y and E, who are checked by A. Apply this sort of relationship to all the letters. Suddenly, it's not that simple, is it? Now, replace those letters with every viable pokemon and viable ability and you can figure out why I'm being so vehement about this. Then you have the fact that playstyles and pokemon are capable of adapting, and you need to make even more considerations. You cannot rely on a slippery slope argument because, unless you can confidently say you can make a judgement taking all of that into account, then it will not be accurate.
And because I don't want to flood this page with paragraphs of my angry, barely Shared Power-related arguing, here's another fun combo I found.
This combo is based on Duraldon sweeping. This will work with most things in place of Duraldon, but I chose it because it had a decent sp atk. and a powerful STAB in Draco Meteor, with STAB Flash Cannon for coverage against fairies. The general idea is to setup Super Luck, Sniper and Unburden then bring Duraldon in. Duraldon will use Endure to tank a hit and eat its Lansat berry, activating both Unburden and Focus Energy. Focus Energy + Super Luck, of course, makes every attack a guaranteed critical hit. This means you can spam STAB Draco Meteors with a meaty 2.25x damage modifier from critical hit + Sniper, and ignore all the sp atk drops as well!
Hawlucha set is for fun, but no reason not to use another set. Sky Attack has a high crit ratio, so with Super Luck, it can crit 50% of the time, so a Power Herb set could work. Barbaracle + Togekiss is nice as they both feign more useful abilities like Tough Claws and Serene Grace, making this strat a nasty surprise. I prefer Sash for Barbaracle with how the current meta is, but Scope Lens means you can get guaranteed crit Stone Edges, with Super Luck active. Shadow Claw is for Doublade.
I may not have played as many SP games as some of you, but I think that dismissing a valid concern by calling it a fallacy is a poor way of handling things.
I actually think that Fur Coat and co, while certainly quite centralizing, are actually a good thing for the meta, as they require HO players to go through a minimal thought process to try to break these stall teams instead of just copy-pasting the steel spam sample team (or sun+Chloro+Sun Power, or rain+SS+Vish, you get the point), clicking random moves and watching things fall. As stated previously, stall teams are not impossible to beat (especially if Unaware is banned), whether it is with setup, special attacks, taunt, toxic, hazards, trick, block/whirpool, or just immensely strong physical sweepers.
Fur Scales Stall is probably strong, centralizing and not the funniest archetype to play against, but I do believe it is not broken. I went through the thread once more and I have yet to find a convincing argument showing that it is not just a pain to deal with/boring/annoying, but actually broken. If I try to sum up the points I've seen :
- It force people to run Hustle and Adaptability or [insert any other damage boosting ability] : these two abilities are perfectly viable in their own right would be used regardless. It's more like running AloPersian, of all things, is mandatory because of Hustle.
- "Just use special moves" is just as bad as "just use Clefable" : Clefable is one mon, special moves = 50% of attacking moves, and they benefit from Adaptability, weather, Sheer Force, etc. and they can abuse solar power, punk rock, flare boost, etc. There are arguably less mons with SpA boosting abilities but that does not mean there unviable.
- stall team can run pressure/a water immunity/whatever : stall steams are hard pressed for slots. Fur Scales + Seismitoed (for example) is already three mons, two of them very bad, and no recovery whatsoever. Add Clef and Pex and you get a single free slot to pick your poison, or rather, pick one single poison that will not kill you among many others. It's like saying that steel spam is broken because it can run Unburden, Swift Swim and Queenly Majesty so that nothing can outspeed it.
- it's matchup based : there have been some replays showing a stall player has to be smart to stay alive against well-built HO. And games being matchup based is somewhat common regardless of playstyle right now, I've seen quite a few games where it boiled down to who has more speed boosting abilities.
It's not about whether "broken checks broken" is a fallacy or not. Right now, it is rather "not broken (but boring) checks some not broken things and many broken ones". Unaware (or weather) is probably much more stale and brain-dead that FurScales. And it's not like Clef is a shitmon...
Anyway, I don't know if balancing this meta is possible at all without banning all abilities that boost stats/damage, and don't forget this is "just" an OM with a monthly ladder and not an official tier like OU.
On a side note, I think the meta would have been easier to balance if shared abilities had a kind of timer like weather or terrains. It would force switches to keep abilities active, and running obscure mons like Frosmoth, Perrserker and co would have a much higher cost, weather and unaware would much less of a problem, etc. There is little difference between putting a shitmon on your team and having its ability active from turn 1, and just saccing it (since it's garage anyway) to activate its ability. I'm not asking for a change or anything (the meta as it is is quite enjoyable) but it could be something to keep in mind.
For all you people hating Fluffy cores, I bring you Furry Double Scaled Marvel (top that name); a team that relies on the stack of Ice Scales Marvel Scale Fur Coat Fluffy and Sandstorm to make Tyranitar the biggest bad boy he can be. It's obviously not as good as some other stall teams, but it does prove a nice point: you can't abuse defensive abilities in the same way as offensive ones without making huge sacrifices.
Offense gets to stack all their abils and then sweep with ease usually, stall and defense have to have an exact combination of abilities to not lose to any HO stack.
For all you people hating Fluffy cores, I bring you Furry Double Scaled Marvel (top that name); a team that relies on the stack of Ice Scales Marvel Scale Fur Coat Fluffy and Sandstorm to make Tyranitar the biggest bad boy he can be. It's obviously not as good as some other stall teams, but it does prove a nice point: you can't abuse defensive abilities in the same way as offensive ones without making huge sacrifices.
Offense gets to stack all their abils and then sweep with ease usually, stall and defense have to have an exact combination of abilities to not lose to any HO stack.
Autoloses to flare boost punk rock or status boost spam. There's a reason I use frosmoth over mudsdale. Sylveon and Goodra both Autolose to steel spam too, even with the defensive boosts.
So are we now looking at banning Unaware? Tbh this is much smarter than banning just FurScales as these 3 combine to make a devastating core. Rain Stall has come up somewhat recently, making it harder to ladder due to the pure strength of that type of team. If you take away unaware, it makes FurScales able to block some rain teams and such, while making sure that setup teams can finally have a role in stallbreaking. Simple and Speed Boost got banned so I don’t think it’s that bad of and idea.
Also, please stop arguing about logical fallacies and whatnot. I understand that some people take arguing too seriously but you gotta remember this is a Pokémon Other Meta thread; people are coming here to have fun not to be shut down like that. KittenLasers, you’ve also not given a good reason for FurScales to be broken, and there’s often more than one way to fix a problem, some of which won’t add more problems to the meta game, so your fallacy argument goes out the window.
Anyways, I used to think Unaware was good for the meta but now I see that it really isn’t in some ways. Right now it’s a game of Rock Paper Scissors, where SteelSpam beats stall, stall beats weather, and weather beats steelspam (in most scenarios, obv a few exceptions.) Just look into what the real problem is; FurScales or Unaware
So are we now looking at banning Unaware? Tbh this is much smarter than banning just FurScales as these 3 combine to make a devastating core. Rain Stall has come up somewhat recently, making it harder to ladder due to the pure strength of that type of team. If you take away unaware, it makes FurScales able to block some rain teams and such, while making sure that setup teams can finally have a role in stallbreaking. Simple and Speed Boost got banned so I don’t think it’s that bad of and idea.
Also, please stop arguing about logical fallacies and whatnot. I understand that some people take arguing too seriously but you gotta remember this is a Pokémon Other Meta thread; people are coming here to have fun not to be shut down like that. KittenLasers, you’ve also not given a good reason for FurScales to be broken, and there’s often more than one way to fix a problem, some of which won’t add more problems to the meta game, so your fallacy argument goes out the window.
Anyways, I used to think Unaware was good for the meta but now I see that it really isn’t in some ways. Right now it’s a game of Rock Paper Scissors, where SteelSpam beats stall, stall beats weather, and weather beats steelspam (in most scenarios, obv a few exceptions.) Just look into what the real problem is; FurScales or Unaware
After all, Magic Guard and Magic Bounce were banned for invalidating so many play styles, and Unaware definitely invalidates a lot of them.
As for FurScales, I think banning just Fur Coat would be fine.
FurScales is actually fine on its own, but adding Fluffy to the Mix and now it is just ridiculous, since Fluffy and Fur Coat are effectively the same ability, minus the added Fire Weakness and not halving moves like Earthquake (both of which can be patched up by teammates with Flash Fire and Levitate)
FluFurScales also falls under that guide line from before as using most physical attackers (which is the most common offense as there isn’t that many good Special Attacking abilities) will just barely dent your opponent with Super Effective moves.
On top of that, with Steel Spam, it is important to have faster teams, and with FluFurScales, those faster teams are dead weight.
So are we now looking at banning Unaware? Tbh this is much smarter than banning just FurScales as these 3 combine to make a devastating core. Rain Stall has come up somewhat recently, making it harder to ladder due to the pure strength of that type of team. If you take away unaware, it makes FurScales able to block some rain teams and such, while making sure that setup teams can finally have a role in stallbreaking. Simple and Speed Boost got banned so I don’t think it’s that bad of and idea.
Also, please stop arguing about logical fallacies and whatnot. I understand that some people take arguing too seriously but you gotta remember this is a Pokémon Other Meta thread; people are coming here to have fun not to be shut down like that. KittenLasers, you’ve also not given a good reason for FurScales to be broken, and there’s often more than one way to fix a problem, some of which won’t add more problems to the meta game, so your fallacy argument goes out the window.
Anyways, I used to think Unaware was good for the meta but now I see that it really isn’t in some ways. Right now it’s a game of Rock Paper Scissors, where SteelSpam beats stall, stall beats weather, and weather beats steelspam (in most scenarios, obv a few exceptions.) Just look into what the real problem is; FurScales or Unaware
After all, Magic Guard and Magic Bounce were banned for invalidating so many play styles, and Unaware definitely invalidates a lot of them.
As for FurScales, I think banning just Fur Coat would be fine.
FurScales is actually fine on its own, but adding Fluffy to the Mix and now it is just ridiculous, since Fluffy and Fur Coat are effectively the same ability, minus the added Fire Weakness and not halving moves like Earthquake (both of which can be patched up by teammates with Flash Fire and Levitate)
FluFurScales also falls under that guide line from before as using most physical attackers (which is the most common offense as there isn’t that many good Special Attacking abilities) will just barely dent your opponent with Super Effective moves.
On top of that, with Steel Spam, it is important to have faster teams, and with FluFurScales, those faster teams are dead weight.
Yes and no. Unaware should be banned, IMO, even if that is counterintuitive as a stall player.
Stall beats Steel Spam. You just need good Stall.
What beats Steel Spam when Steel Spam brings their Sandstorm variation with Sand Rush Exca? Nothing does bar max def stall or speed control weather. What beats it after fur coat ban? Exactly 1 variation of Weather speed control, and barely anything else minus some flukes.
This unhealthy obsession with banning furscales just because it's common is getting tedious. All the time people are ignoring the simple fact you are sacrificing slots to barely usable Pokemon.
Bewear, Dubwool, Persian Alola, Frosmoth, these aren't Pokemon stall (or balance) want to run. They dont have recovery, they have terrible stats, or are otherwise barely usable in a real tier. Their ability is the only reason they see any usage, and it costs you a lot.
Dedicated Rain Stall runs Frosmoth and Persialola which reduces your rain slots to 4; 1 goes to pelipper by default and 1 goes to hydration by default. 1 slot to dry skin just to not autolose to dracovish and boom, you have 1 whopping slot left to counter Solar Sun, Steel Spam, opposite weather stall (Sun stall especially nukes dryskin stall if you're not good at it), you have one slot to cover everything else in the entire meta. That is what using furscales cost you. Calling that broken is ridiculous. If you're tired of people facing you with fluffy fur scales, do what a lot of people have been doing, start bringing actual special threats instead of relying on shitty steel spam variations that can't break flufuscales reliably.
Don't know if this would fix the problem but maybe ban fur coat, then keep fluffy that way you get some good stuff and and some stuff to balance it out.
Teams that really want to do fluffy could just use flash fire.
Sunny day teams aren't as common as steel spam so its not like a fluffy team without flash fire would get beaten all the time
I feel that if a furcoat/scales team went against another furcoat/scales team it would be pretty boring cause you got high defenses vs high defenses.
I think attack oriented teams are fine with no bans, once cloud nine is fixed it negates the problem of weather teams.
I dunno about ice scales though.
I really dislike the argument saying that stall isn't too strong because it "sacrifices slots for bad mons" as if speed boost wasn't banned despite being only usable by a "bad mon" and harvest being banned despite being used by a "bad mon". I mean, sure if the only available user is also really good, nice but the fact that stall is strong and omnipresent despite these "bad mons" is furtherproof of how powerful these abilities are. That's the whole point of this OM, combining what's strong, even on mons generally regarded as bad, to make your team more powerful or in this case, more resistant.
Honestly i am a bit concerned by how powerful stall seems to be, since i have seen little to no counterplay other than playing a stall of your own. Sure you could argue that special threats work, but do they ? I mean i have yet to face any, and i don't see how you'd win against most offensive teams. In my opinion what makes stall team so tough to deal with is not that much FurScales or Fluffy+Fire immunity or all 4 combined but Unaware. Unaware just screams "better hit me with raw power or you wont kill me", and that's just not fun. It's either you can break it and you might 6-0 or you can't and you will be 6-0'd. Most offensive teams have no way of dealing with stall teams since even running some taunt sub with prankster, and you will still most likely get bodied. Status doesn't work because rest and natural care are a must to deal with Corrosion stall teams. Usually you resort to big wallbreakers with setup or strong firepower. But as i said strong firepower is either enough to win just by itself or not enough at all.
Therefore i believe banning Unaware would be a great way to make stall teams more balanced. They would still remain strong without being frustrating to play against. Right now i fell like there's is no viable counterplay, that is to say a team that's still good against other archetypes.
By the way, feel free to share replays showing how you beat stall using (or got beat using stall against) an offensive team, or at least not a stall team.
I really dislike the argument saying that stall isn't too strong because it "sacrifices slots for bad mons" as if speed boost wasn't banned despite being only usable by a "bad mon" and harvest being banned despite being used by a "bad mon". I mean, sure if the only available user is also really good, nice but the fact that stall is strong and omnipresent despite these "bad mons" is furtherproof of how powerful these abilities are. That's the whole point of this OM, combining what's strong, even on mons generally regarded as bad, to make your team more powerful or in this case, more resistant.
Honestly i am a bit concerned by how powerful stall seems to be, since i have seen little to no counterplay other than playing a stall of your own. Sure you could argue that special threats work, but do they ? I mean i have yet to face any, and i don't see how you'd win against most offensive teams. In my opinion what makes stall team so tough to deal with is not that much FurScales or Fluffy+Fire immunity or all 4 combined but Unaware. Unaware just screams "better hit me with raw power or you wont kill me", and that's just not fun. It's either you can break it and you might 6-0 or you can't and you will be 6-0'd. Most offensive teams have no way of dealing with stall teams since even running some taunt sub with prankster, and you will still most likely get bodied. Status doesn't work because rest and natural care are a must to deal with Corrosion stall teams. Usually you resort to big wallbreakers with setup or strong firepower. But as i said strong firepower is either enough to win just by itself or not enough at all.
Therefore i believe banning Unaware would be a great way to make stall teams more balanced. They would still remain strong without being frustrating to play against. Right now i fell like there's is no viable counterplay, that is to say a team that's still good against other archetypes.
By the way, feel free to share replays showing how you beat stall using (or got beat using stall against) an offensive team, or at least not a stall team.
Harvest was banned for leppa berry infinite battles, not for being broken.
Unaware should be banned. That is what a lot of people including myself are begging for. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1092571800
here's a replay to showcase why. Goodra takes 33% from Draco Meteor turt (or 21% from Kyurem ice beam, 35% from Draco Kyu) and just sits with its fat ass in the rain. If unaware was banned, it couldn't do this in that way. IMO Unaware is definitely the key broken component.
However I will argue Contrary is broken if you ban Unaware.
Tough Claws Adaptability superpower contrary lucario just butters through teams if it gets that +1 every time it uses SP without a possibility of using unaware. prankster haze is a thing, sure, and I'm sure I can find a way to use it properly so I don't lose to this, but a combination of 2 mons (Grimmsnarl/Whimsicott + haze user) is not a proper argument for something not being broken.
Harvest was banned for leppa berry infinite battles, not for being broken.
Unaware should be banned. That is what a lot of people including myself are begging for. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1092571800
here's a replay to showcase why. Goodra takes 33% from Draco Meteor turt (or 21% from Kyurem ice beam, 35% from Draco Kyu) and just sits with its fat ass in the rain. If unaware was banned, it couldn't do this in that way. IMO Unaware is definitely the key broken component.
However I will argue Contrary is broken if you ban Unaware.
Tough Claws Adaptability superpower contrary lucario just butters through teams if it gets that +1 every time it uses SP without a possibility of using unaware. prankster haze is a thing, sure, and I'm sure I can find a way to use it properly so I don't lose to this, but a combination of 2 mons (Grimmsnarl/Whimsicott + haze user) is not a proper argument for something not being broken.
I don't know about Contrary being broken. As you said prankster haze could work but it would work against a lot of other setup sweepers as well so i don't mind it being a thing. I've seen some contrary teams already, mainly with sun since leaf storm on your chloro mon and overheat on another sun abuser are really good. These teams seem to have a lot of speed control since they often play shuckle with sticky (but could run malamar since superpower is great). Adaptability luke doesn't look that strong to me on a Contrary team. At least not strong enough to be broken, since you can run anti-priority or rain or faster mons that resist bullet punch on offensive teams. As for defensive teams you will most likely run some forme of phazing or prankster haze after an Unaware ban. I can definitely see this being strong tho.
Doesn't this team autolose to prio spam ? Obviously we have a different take on the meta seeing as you seem to play a lot of stall whereas i enjoy playing hyper offense but, this looks like it would lose to rain or prio spam really hard.
Weather are very strong, nobody can deny it. But it's relatively easy to stop (Cloud Nine, but it seems not to be working). The problem comes when the enemy uses Sand Veil, giving to every move a 20% (or more) less accuracy. Imo it isn't broken but unfair, it's like giving to your opponent Hustle, but with no Atk boost. So I suggest banning Sand Veil because of its unfairness,
Another hilarious skeleton: Pixilate + Misty Surge + Mimicry
This core makes all of your pokemon and normal type moves fairy type. Run it with Punk Rocker, run it with Espeed, run it with Tinted Lens, run it with Adaptability, run it with Scarf Noivern, whatever floats your boat. Punk Rocker hits insanely hard and 2HKOs some surprisingly bulky shit. Queenly Majesty is decidedly rare while First Impression is resisted and often unboosted, and opposing Espeed is basically nonexistent. Is it that good? No, but it's better than the meme it looks like at first glance and can snag some surprise wins.
I really dislike the argument saying that stall isn't too strong because it "sacrifices slots for bad mons" as if speed boost wasn't banned despite being only usable by a "bad mon" and harvest being banned despite being used by a "bad mon". I mean, sure if the only available user is also really good, nice but the fact that stall is strong and omnipresent despite these "bad mons" is furtherproof of how powerful these abilities are. That's the whole point of this OM, combining what's strong, even on mons generally regarded as bad, to make your team more powerful or in this case, more resistant.
Honestly i am a bit concerned by how powerful stall seems to be, since i have seen little to no counterplay other than playing a stall of your own. Sure you could argue that special threats work, but do they ? I mean i have yet to face any, and i don't see how you'd win against most offensive teams. In my opinion what makes stall team so tough to deal with is not that much FurScales or Fluffy+Fire immunity or all 4 combined but Unaware. Unaware just screams "better hit me with raw power or you wont kill me", and that's just not fun. It's either you can break it and you might 6-0 or you can't and you will be 6-0'd. Most offensive teams have no way of dealing with stall teams since even running some taunt sub with prankster, and you will still most likely get bodied. Status doesn't work because rest and natural care are a must to deal with Corrosion stall teams. Usually you resort to big wallbreakers with setup or strong firepower. But as i said strong firepower is either enough to win just by itself or not enough at all.
Therefore i believe banning Unaware would be a great way to make stall teams more balanced. They would still remain strong without being frustrating to play against. Right now i fell like there's is no viable counterplay, that is to say a team that's still good against other archetypes.
By the way, feel free to share replays showing how you beat stall using (or got beat using stall against) an offensive team, or at least not a stall team.
Basically it's just a toxic stall team, with ice body to give everybody healing, fur coat and ice scales for extreme tankiness, and corrosion to get rid of steel types and poison types. It's seriously threatened by Wonder skin, since it makes toxapex and salazzle the only ones who can hit toxics. It's also annoying to deal with natural cure- BUT with toxapex's merciless, all of these pokemon with no attack ev's start dealing damage like their more offensive counterparts. Getting a bunch of crits in a row also has some added tilt factor. Getting stalled out by hail and toxic is already tilting on it's own. If you're into super defensive teams, its tons of fun. Steelworker + steely spirit cuts right through this team.
