SP Shared Power

[excitedly ava]

+

Not super sure about the others, but I feel qualified (kinda) to comment on this one.

T-Spikes, while great, I find to be way too easily shut down by Levitate, HDB, Purifying Salt, Guts, literally just Poison types like Pex, Dragalge, Toxicroak, the Toxic Trio, etc. Also, spinnable/defoggable. Even with Hound as a spinblocker, it's probably not doing much else besides normal/fighting immunity, potentially tricking a Band, and Fluffy. Its damage output isn't really anything to write home about. And D-Bond is good, but somewhat niche imo.

As for Glim, I've honestly found more success with it using Corrosion and setting up hazards manually. This is mostly only useful on anti-Stall teams and Guts/Merciless/Maushold teams, but I really think that Toxic Spikes is just losing its luster of free hazards on contact.

All in all, I think this and similar cores are good - but definitely close to being ruled as obsolete for the most part. Fluffy will always be useful, but never broken, same with Toxic Spikes, but given the extreme rise in Giratina-O's popularity, along with plenty of non-contact Phys attackers (Excadrill, Boulder, even Lycanroc with Stone Edge) and special attackers, it's not something that I think should be teambuilt around. Again, though, Fluffy is great, I think it's mainly Glim that's the outlier here. There's even plenty of other abilities to trigger on contact, i.e. Stamina, Weak Armor, Poison Point, Flame Body, Rough Skin, or even just Red Card (lmao) that could provide a greater advantage, and the appeal of Toxic Spikes just isn't worth the slot when you could be running something else to set up hazards or spread poison (Fez/Oki/Munki).

Basically, Glim is indeed a "relic of a more offensive meta" imo. (didnt know there was bigotry in pokemon but im glad its less common)

Spoiler

(see what I did there? yeah I'll see myself out now)

Edit: I'd like to add, for building around Fluffy: Something to weaken fire, and by extension counter it: Heatran, Dachsbun, Kyogre, resists in general, etc. T-Spikes just no longer complements Fluffy like it used to, and I think it's more effective/valuable to navigate Fluffy's weakness rather than use it to try to make T-spikes viable.

 

[LuffyWasTaken]

How the core works:
Iron Bundle only wants to click STAB, so Crawdaunt provides Adaptability. Between Aqua Jet and Bundle's freakish speed, this core serves as speed control. I don't actually like any of the Adaptability mons. They're all frail, slow, and bring almost nothing to the table besides their ability. I went with Crawdaunt here because of the utility of Knock Off.
The question:
In general, which Adaptability Pokemon performs the best?

i think the best adaptability mon depends on the team build, for example crawdaunt does better in offense teams with scizor and lycanroc-dusk and basculegion does better in special teams or kyogre teams, depending on the team if u choose to do basculegion female + bundle u can run klevaor for sheer force to boost both of the guys and also run stealth rocks for the team with basculegion blocking spins and threatening back with sheer force adap boosted attacks

How the core works:
Jirachi's Serene Grace gives Ninetales a Blizzard with a 20% freeze chance alongside 100% accuracy. Teammates like Iron Bundle appreciate a Blizzard accuracy boost and can continue to roll for freezes throughout the game. If you can fire off five Ice moves in a game, then you have an expected value of one freeze. In fact, you have near coinflip odds (48.8%) to land a freeze after just three Blizzards. Ice Fang is another move to note, since it adds a flinch chance on top of the freeze. Good partners should be prepared to take advantage of free turns, so powerful setup mons like Baxcalibur or even Zamazenta pair well. This core is closer to "funny" than "good", but I took it to mid 1500s, so it's decent enough for ladder play. The downside is that Scizor eats your lunch.
The question:
Is Freeze a viable strategy, or does it top out as cheese?

unfortunately i think this is just fun cheese, the meta is too fast for u to worry about secondary effects, i had an idea of doing stuff like no guard and then running zap cannon and stuff but priority teams and scarf mons are just gonna blast through these kinda teams, im considering some serene grace stuff tho there is a possibility of good cheese with twave and iron head mons with indeedee to stop priorities ig but its probably not going anywhere

T-Spikes, while great, I find to be way too easily shut down by Levitate, HDB, Purifying Salt, Guts, literally just Poison types like Pex, Dragalge, Toxicroak, the Toxic Trio, etc. Also, spinnable/defoggable. Even with Hound as a spinblocker, it's probably not doing much else besides normal/fighting immunity, potentially tricking a Band, and Fluffy. Its damage output isn't really anything to write home about. And D-Bond is good, but somewhat niche imo.

most of the stuff said here makes no sense, levitate is used yes ok but all the rest is nonsense, HDB is a rare item in such a meta, purifying salt is a restricted ability and nobody uses garg anyway so why does it matter?, guts i fail to see how it matters they get poisoned instead of burned so its just more damage so why is it even mentioned?, poison types might absorb the tspike coming in but they keep on getting put down so in the end it doesnt even matter like ok toxicroak enters and then what? u gonna attack with sucker or something? it goes back up and if u dont attack ure just wasting turns, i fail to see the spinnable argument because we just said we got a spinblocker and defog is whatever cuz u waste a turn to defog it just to see it going back up later on so overall i think this argument makes no sense personally

now some comments on what i think about the meta: the meta is so fast paced that most of the teams in my builder dont make the cut, while its true the meta is very offensive i think half the offensive meta gets shut down by fluffy + zamazenta or fluffy archaludon getting healed by dry skin on rain with iron defense and electro shot, the other half being quark drive teams and kyogre based teams, so what should we do about it? id like to suggest ppl to try more groudon teams because they completely shut down kyogre teams and then fluffy zamazenta to also shut down half the meta and thats 3 mons, the rest is up to theory but i think there is room for improvement and ppl are being tunnel visioned by the current state, i will try to come up with more ideas and post em up as usual but i also hope to see the community try new things over the usual prio spam or kyogre goes brrr

 

[LuffyWasTaken]

hello everyone shared power king here and today i felt generous so ill post a batch for sample teams submission, if this post doesnt get a billion likes im not posting teams ever again (jokingly)

london buddies: https://pokepast.es/fa0713092b48bccc
speed control of the team, very broken mon idk why its still around
team healer, annoying setup guy with knock and sucker, tera dark to boost attacks and screw indeedee
fluffy is broken and rain helps nullify the bad effect, roar and wisp to deal with annoying stuff like zamazenta, tera for dragapult
helps in the spdef side and its a switch in into thunder and expanding force, hazards guy, helmet is for scarf mausholds and generally chip stuff even more, rest to stay healthy and keep annoying stuff with whirlwind and helmet
amazing synergy with electro shot on rain and it completely dabs on physical teams
anti cheese for stall teams and poison spam with glimmora and stuff, it can easily spiral out of control with tail glow and rest with hydration

prio spam: https://pokepast.es/2e9c236c5c9dc01f
defogger of the team when spin is blocked by houndstone or giratina, pivoter or setup sweeper, the 30 ivs on speed are to guarantee slow u-turn vs other scizors, tera poison is to take less damage from zama body press and keep toxic immunity
gives adaptability and has good synergy with technician and tough claws, sash for indeedee and whatnot it can trade with mons when they have dry skin or psy terrain to block its general shenanigans
fluffy broken lol, its an offensive set because with support from the team it can easily take kills and get even moxie boosts, it can sweep teams at the right moment, wisp and roar for zamazenta
tough claws support, rocker, can trade mons with endeavor, theres not much to say about it
spinner of the team + moxie giver, with support from the team it can easily spiral out of control and sweep thanks to the boosts + aqua step speed boosting, vest and tera steel makes sure we dont lose to pixilate teams or other bs
nullifies psy terrain so we can priority the mon infront of us, yet another guy with a prio and support from the team to hit very hard

elec terrain: https://pokepast.es/4acf73650ea75475
sets terrain, drop hazards, die
quark drive giver, pretty fast and strong with speed boost from terrain and adap + sheer force boosted attacks, blizzard is there to hit hard no guard teams and in general its better than ice beam even tho it has a chance to miss
adapt giver, hit mons very strongly and block rapid spin
sheer force giver, it can either drop rocks and stay pressuring or defog if we rly need to take rocks out, sash is there to trade vs fast offensive mons
levitate stops spikes, webs and tspikes for free and it has synergy with sheer force and adap, its our speed control alongside bundle
anti offense mon, it guarantees we dont automatically lose to priority spam thanks to stamina and instant defense boost from quark drive

bulky offense: https://pokepast.es/a30628bc38e238be
adapt giver, sash for indeedee and whatnot
deofgger of the team, pivot boy and possible setup sweeper, the 30 ivs on speed are to guarantee slow u-turn vs other scizors, what does this mon doesnt do????
fluffy good boy, makes sure we got a zamazenta check
anti berry teams, moxie giver and very bulky for no reason, it can easily sweep at the right time with sword dance and trick room, tera fighting so we can hit heatran
gives flash fire to nullify fluffy and stop will o wisp, rocker of the team and bulky spdef mon as switch in to indeedee and whatnot, tera bug so the only weaknesses are rock and flying which are extremely rare in this format
levitate giver, extremely bulky for no reason and can clean with supporting abilities, roar is for zamazenta and other annoying setup mons

dragons are cool: https://pokepast.es/31cbf18665502287
gives boosts for dragon moves and hes also the breaker of the team, adapt + maw with specs can do alot of damage, dragon breath is stronger than dpulse thanks to technician and has 30% chance of paralyzing so its a fun move to spam
does the same thing i explained above but has knock off to take away leftovers from things and whatnot
gives adapt, tspikes support, pivot with flip turn and can drop some strong dmeteor when needed
u can probably guess what it does by now
very strong setup sweeper, it has alot of support from the team with boosting abilities and fluffy
speed control, good support from the team, curse is there so we can trade for annoying mons in case we are having difficulties taking down setup mons

 

[vnmmv]

id like to suggest ppl to try more groudon teams because they completely shut down kyogre teams and then fluffy zamazenta to also shut down half the meta and thats 3 mons

I took your suggestion and built a Groudon + Zama + Fluffy sun team. An immediate 15+ win streak reclaimed the top spot on the ladder, running up to 1600. The ladder's peak is lower than it used to be, so I'm not going to smell my own farts as much as last time.



It's all pretty standard except for Ogerpon. Scarf plus Embody Aspect gives you a speed boost that's better than +2, reaching 787 speed. It's the ultimate in speed control outside of priority.

I wanted all that speed because this meta is fast. Scarf Dragapult is a real set, Zamazenta's speed is highly relevant, Iron Bundle is on teams with and without terrain, Scarf is Kyogre's best set, and the list goes on. The top speed tiers are incredibly high. The result is that Psychic Terrain has fallen off hard. All of that speed nullifies the advantage that Psychic Terrain gives: the ability to outrun and OHKO stuff while protecting yourself from priority. Look at the teams that Luffy posted. They all have either Archaludon or Houndstone. Teams have adapted to deal with priority spam in ways that don't require Psychic Terrain (or defensive structures taking up 3+ slots). That adaptation allows them to run crazy speed control that lack a crippling frailty. This trend leaves Indeedee in an awkward spot. Maushold has fallen, too, since even Scarf Maushold is not fast enough to clean a lot of non-terrain offenses. Band or Tidy Up sets can still break but are much frailer than alternatives that can break with 90% of the power.

Psychic Terrain taking a step back is a good thing, imo. Loading priority spam into Terrain, or vice versa, feels like matchup fishing. I think more consistent archetypes are taking over, and they make the ladder more fun (at least for me). Is Psychic Terrain unviable? No, the boost is potent, and you can still farm wins against priority spam. All of this screed is just to say that Psychic Terrain has taken a step back and is not the S-ranked threat it once was.

 

[LuffyWasTaken]

The result is that Psychic Terrain has fallen off hard.

i genuinely dont understand why ppl thought indeedee was so good, putting it as S in a VR is mind boggling to me tbh, it stops priorities? ok so how does ur team deal with an adap tough claws moxie AV quaquaval? that things snowballs so fast and it destroys whatever indeedee team u got, what u gonna do about it? use priorities? xD but serious talk i think ppl have a distorted view of the meta, i think ppl should focus more on things like fluffy, zamazenta, archaludon, sun to stop that demon of kyogre and in general more special oriented teams to avoid the threats i mentioned because the only abilities that can help fend em off is ting-lu one so id suggest exploring quark drive teams more tbh, pinchurin or w/e its name is might be a dead slot vs levitate teams but giving ur whole team a +1 on whatever is insane, keep on innovating peeps <3

edit: congrats on 1st tho, glad to see someone listens to the advice and gets good results out of it, keep it up

edit 2: here is an idea i just had, supposedly it destroys alot of the meta and it has good synergy so it should work, try it up ^_^ https://pokepast.es/4d2df273f9362926

edit 3:

i did pretty well with the sun drive team, raging bolt is a hidden gem

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I edited my special spam team.
https://pokepast.es/7eb12c1a4fcbbd57

It's pretty much the same except I replaced Indeedee for Raging Bolt, replaced Protect on Darkrai with Ice Beam for more coverage, and replaced Strength Sap with Air Slash on Drifblim for more coverage. Indeedee was basically doing nothing for my team as it failed to deal large amounts of damage, while Raging Bolt allows me to stop priority and have another sweeper.

It is also a check against Kyogre and Calyrex-Ice.

edit: also i defeated the team posted in #406
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2102309275-rg81ubn9irt3t7tkbqw6x710i6tbvvupw

 

[InkyDarkBird]

number 2: queenly majesty, think might be a little controversial but lets consider it for a second ok? do we rly want to run an unviable mon just to stop priorities? lets say we do right, now what? all we are stopping is scizor and crawdaunt, is a dead slot in the team worth that much? like ok it got rapid spin but cmon

Tsareena has 120 Atk and has Grassy Glide. Pairing it with a Choice Band or Life Orb, Rillaboom, and Calyrex-Ice can easily allow it to snowball.

also here what i think should happen to " fix " the format, ban kyogre, restrict quark drive, restrict/ban dauntless shield cuz after kyogre and quark goes zama with fluffy will obbliterate the format, ban crawdaunt (yall watchlisting scizor but thats the wrong mon to look out for brothers), im pretty locked in on these and i think the meta would vary alot if these things happened and it would be more fair, drop some thoughts and whatnot im curious about what the community thinks about the current state and what should happen moving forward

What is Crawdaunt doing to deserve a ban? Crawdaunt is very slow and a Choice Banded Aqua Jet under the rain is not enough to OHKO many Pokemon. In addition, Pokemon that resist Body Press can easily threaten Zamazenta, such as Lugia, Fezandipiti, Okidogi, and Munkidori.

I also believe we should unban Landorus. Out of all the offensive Pokemon in the special ban, it was the second slowest, and Sheer Force is a much weaker SpA buff compared to Beads of Ruin and Grim Neigh. No Flying STAB sucks and the only coverage it gets is Focus Miss, Grass Knot (no Sheer Force), Sludge Wave, and Psychic.

i really hate heatran pls unban landorus

 

[EyeWasBored]

im feeling quite bored now that i solved the meta so id like to start a debate with yall, i already stated the things i think are game breaking and should have been banned or restricted already but i was looking at the things that are currently banned or restricted and i noticed some things that makes me question yall choices so id like to hear yall opinions so i can find out if im trippin or if im spittin

number 1: neutralizing gas, im quite confused on this one because mold breaker is restricted and its given to a mon like excadrill, what does weezing even do???? what is that boy threatening that it deserves to be BANNED? i think it should be restricted just like mold breaker

number 2: queenly majesty, think might be a little controversial but lets consider it for a second ok? do we rly want to run an unviable mon just to stop priorities? lets say we do right, now what? all we are stopping is scizor and crawdaunt, is a dead slot in the team worth that much? like ok it got rapid spin but cmon

number 3: magnet pull, hot take but why is this even relevant? on the top of my head i can only name 3 steel mons in the entire tier and its mons that dont care about magnet pull funny enough, scizor can just uturn out, heatran can magma storm or earth power it and archaludon threaten with body press, so what does it even do??? i would just restrict it to avoid other mons from freely setup on heatran but banned is nonsense

also here what i think should happen to " fix " the format, ban kyogre, restrict quark drive, restrict/ban dauntless shield cuz after kyogre and quark goes zama with fluffy will obbliterate the format, ban crawdaunt (yall watchlisting scizor but thats the wrong mon to look out for brothers), im pretty locked in on these and i think the meta would vary alot if these things happened and it would be more fair, drop some thoughts and whatnot im curious about what the community thinks about the current state and what should happen moving forward

what is even banworthy about kyogre? it hits hard I will admit, but there are plenty of good water resists in the tier, as well as viable water immunities.
Scarf sets don't hit nearly hard enough, and are ruined by any speed control, and specs and non choiced sets are easily outsped.

Also electric surge is fine beacause pincurchin is a dead team slot, it can sash thunder wave dangerous fast mons but other than that it does nearly nothing.

also crawdaunt does nothing if you have 1 water resist that isnt slow as shit.

I'm not trying to start any arguments here but I just don't really get how you think here.

 

[excitedly ava]

also here what i think should happen to " fix " the format, ban kyogre, restrict quark drive, restrict/ban dauntless shield cuz after kyogre and quark goes zama with fluffy will obbliterate the format, ban crawdaunt (yall watchlisting scizor but thats the wrong mon to look out for brothers)

Kyogre: No idea why Kyogre and Groudon were ever legal, to be quite honest. Two crazy strong Ubers with weathers that support the whole team, plus good movepools and stats off the charts for a tier where Lycanroc is a prominent mon.
QD: yeah. Proto's restricted, but not qd? Okay. I understand that like Pincurchin isn't super useful outside of E-Surge, but still, QD pushes some mons just over the edge.
Dauntless Shield: Literally how the fuck is it not restricted? Shell Armor Goodra-H can easily become unbeatable with the free def boost and Shelter AND Body Press AND recovery (in Life dew and Rest but still, I've teambuilt around it and holy SHIT it's so fucking tanky, loses to whirlwind/d-tail tho).
Crawdaunt: dawg what are you on? It clicks Knock Off, Aqua Jet, and dies. If anything, Basc/Adap should be watchlisted, and neither are proving to be broken or unhealthy for the meta.

what is even banworthy about kyogre? it hits hard I will admit, but there are plenty of good water resists in the tier, as well as viable water immunities.
Scarf sets don't hit nearly hard enough, and are ruined by any speed control, and specs and non choiced sets are easily outsped.

literally huh. like. what. First of all, just run your own speed control alongside it if you think Kyogre gets ruined by speed control. Second of all, i don't think I've ever seen someone willingly use anything other than Scarf on a Kyogre in this format. Third, Rain-boosted, 399 TIMID Spa STAB, 150 Base Power (not even accounting other abilities from other stuff) is NUTS. There is NO WAY you just said "Scarf Kyogre doesn't hit that hard".

Also, Weezing sucks, yeah, but Neutralizing Gas literally ruins the entire point of this format. "Hey, this Scizor has Technician, Steely Spirit, Tough Claws? Yeah, not anymore!! Lmao! Yeah, that thing you built your whole team around? USELESS!!!!!" Same w mold breaker, but that only affects stuff like Water Absorb/Flash Fire, etc., but still defeats the purpose of the format enough to warrant a restriction imo.

basically, pls ban things. not crawdaunt tho.

 

[EyeWasBored]

Kyogre: No idea why Kyogre and Groudon were ever legal, to be quite honest. Two crazy strong Ubers with weathers that support the whole team, plus good movepools and stats off the charts for a tier where Lycanroc is a prominent mon.
QD: yeah. Proto's restricted, but not qd? Okay. I understand that like Pincurchin isn't super useful outside of E-Surge, but still, QD pushes some mons just over the edge.
Dauntless Shield: Literally how the fuck is it not restricted? Shell Armor Goodra-H can easily become unbeatable with the free def boost and Shelter AND Body Press AND recovery (in Life dew and Rest but still, I've teambuilt around it and holy SHIT it's so fucking tanky, loses to whirlwind/d-tail tho).
Crawdaunt: dawg what are you on? It clicks Knock Off, Aqua Jet, and dies. If anything, Basc/Adap should be watchlisted, and neither are proving to be broken or unhealthy for the meta.


literally huh. like. what. First of all, just run your own speed control alongside it if you think Kyogre gets ruined by speed control. Second of all, i don't think I've ever seen someone willingly use anything other than Scarf on a Kyogre in this format. Third, Rain-boosted, 399 TIMID Spa STAB, 150 Base Power (not even accounting other abilities from other stuff) is NUTS. There is NO WAY you just said "Scarf Kyogre doesn't hit that hard".

Also, Weezing sucks, yeah, but Neutralizing Gas literally ruins the entire point of this format. "Hey, this Scizor has Technician, Steely Spirit, Tough Claws? Yeah, not anymore!! Lmao! Yeah, that thing you built your whole team around? USELESS!!!!!"

basically, pls ban things. not crawdaunt tho.

apologies for phrasing things incorrectly, scarf kyogre does in fact, hit very hard. What I meant to communicate was that there are several switchins,

252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Wo-Chien in Rain: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Giratina in Rain: 174-205 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
While yes, these attacks will likely be boosted by tera water/adaptability, decent special investment allows you to take these hits far better.
Also, there are multiple great water absorb users in the tier, such as clodsire and wellspring ogrepon

However, I am viewing this from the perspective of someone who primarily uses a team with 2 dragon resists and tera water calyrex ice, along with thunder wave sticky web galvantula, so my view of kyogre is likely a bit warped funnily enough the team wasnt even meant to beat kyogre those are just the mons I found that worked.

I would probably need to play agains/with kyogre significantly more but currently, I do not see it as banworthy

 

[excitedly ava]

im arguing none of this matters for the simple fact weezing is dogwater at the game, even if u nullify their abilities what the hell does it do back? click toxic and then run away? like lets be for real that mon is just not good and so i think neutralizing gas doesnt deserve a ban

Weezing, and Weezing-G, actually have decent movepools, however it's their stats that make them lackluster, but is meant to be a defensive utility mon.

But the thing is, in a meta where abilities are the center of the format, an ability to nullify any and all abilities completely becomes overpowering, kind of in the same way that SwSh Pure Hackmons was entirely just E-max Eternatus with Neutralizing Gas. It's the perfect defensive ability, especially in a metagame where abilities play such a massive role.

What's the point of having a team centered around Scizor if Weezing just comes in, Will-o-Wisps it, and Fire Blasts it? It doesn't matter if you have Flash Fire, or Well-Baked Body, or anything. A physdef Weezing beats a standard Scizor in a 1v1 any day. A lot of the threats in this meta just aren't threats in standard metagames, simply because they have access to a new resource in other abilities to make them stronger. So to have a - might I remind you of Weezing's stats - defensive mon with a defensive ability to perfectly counter and invalidate almost any offensive threat in the metagame, just...doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Neutralizing Gas has the capability to turn this metagame into RU 2.0, which I don't think anyone wants.

Also, Crawdaunt is just...not...that strong. Sorry. I just completely disagree with you that Crawdaunt should be banned. It invalidates Indeedee...and not much else (also Indeedee teams restrict its use of Aqua Jet anyway). It doesn't completely counter the entire meta, it doesn't make the meta unbalanced or restrict teambuilding. It does not make the meta unfun or unplayable. There is essentially no reason to ban it besides "oh the lobster dude has a high attack stat >:(".

 

[excitedly ava]

Also just bc I feel like this should be a separate post to my previous post, the fact that there is a meta in 2024 where the question of "Is Kyogre broken" is relevant is fucking insane. Shouldn't have been legal in the first place. Please, PLEASE ban it. And, in the same vein, Groudon should be banned too, since the only other Rain setter in the meta would be Pelipper which is just...not great in comparison to Kyogre or Groudon. Their BSTs are just too high for a meta populated by standard mons.

 

[KaenSoul]

New survey for anyone interested! https://forms.gle/CmDbtpyiqu1ztpFw6
Should be a quick one, depending on the amount of answers it may last one or two weeks, and we will use it to decide if anything should be suspect tested/quick banned.

 

[vnmmv]

TLDR: I think the tier is in a balanced spot and doesn't need any bans or drops. Sorry to be contrarian.

I'll give my thoughts on the survey, in order of most to least important to me.

Quark Drive
To get the facts straight, Quark Drive offers a 1.3 multiplier on any stat, except Speed, which gets a 1.5. That boost is like a universal Sheer Force and is not to be sneezed at. Where Quark Drive differs from most abilities, though, is that a team needs to dedicate two slots to run it. Those slots are not complimentary. Pincurchin is slow and a mediocre hazard setter with physical bulk and hazards as its saving graces. Meanwhile, most Quark Drive mons are not viable, and the ones that are viable share glass cannon characteristics. Right off the bat, you're in an awkward spot in the teambuilder. You need to lean into Pincurchin either as a suicide lead for HO, which is a role that it's weak in, or as part of a balance, which is the most difficult archetype to build. I say Pincurchin is not a good suicide lead because it can't ward off removal or opposing hazards. You have to sacrifice momentum in the early game and play from behind, or you have to skillfully find opportunities to switch in twice and activate your abilities. I, personally, enjoy those interactions.

Despite the limited first slots, the reward of running Quark Drive is that you gain unparalleled flexibility in your other four slots. This ability is the best enabler of balance in the tier. As an example, +SpD Heatran is a great switchin to the zeitgeist's new favorite, Dragon Pulse spam. Without Quark Drive, the only instant Special Defence boost is from Ting-Lu, which fits on limited structures (but should probably see more usage). With stuff like Vessel of Ruin or Fluffy, you're often left with several team members that don't help each other. What does Crawdaunt care that it takes .75 from special attacks? Crawdaunt is still dying. Quark Drive, on the other hand, lets you bind that offensive core to your defensive core by tapping into the same boost. This flexibility is managable. The offensive core will have to include Iron Valiant or Iron Bundle, so you know what to prepare for in the builder and can pack Scizor or Chansey or whatever else you like.

The elephant in the room is the Speed boost. I will not deny it, Quark Drive's rise has pushed the speed tiers higher. I do think, though, that the powerful mons taking advantage of this speed tend to fall within speed tiers that are reasonably revengeable for high-speed scarfers like Dragapult or Darkrai. Additionally, Quark Drive's dependence on Electric Terrain ensures that priority is at least an option, although I have posted before about developments around thwarting priority.
All in all, I quite like Quark Drive's presence in the tier.

Raging Bolt
I could see a suspect on this guy. It's too early to tell whether it's broken or not. I think Raging Bolt teams are new. It fits on a lot of teams and naturally beats Scizor, which is cool. Thunderclap could be a problem. The tier is not well-equipped to handle special priority. However, I wonder if we're in an instance of OM weirdness. I suspect fat stuff can beat Raging Bolt, but no one runs fat on the ladder because we play this OM to string together crazy damage multipliers.

Kyogre
Turn 1 Water Spout sucks to take, no point in sugarcoating it. After that first turn, though, you realistically hardly ever face that 150 BP again. Kyogre gets chipped easily. Hazards are easy to get up and keep up, and priority is everywhere. You, me, and your grandma know that your opponent is leading Kyogre, so get ready for it. Lead with Ting-Lu so you can switch to a resist, or lead with Groudon, or lead with Raging Bolt, or something else. I have not played with Dry Skin stuff or Archaludon, so if the feeling is that Rain structures push Kyogre over the edge, that's fine by me. Kyogre does not seem like a big problem to me, though.

Unbans
I voted yes on Ogerpon-H and G-Weezing, but I am having buyers remorse about Ogerpon-H. The free +1 might be too punishing for fat. G-Weezing would be fine with a restriction. Neutralizing Gas sounds boring to play against, though. Why am I playing this meta if all of my abilities can drop away? It just depends on the councils tiering philosophy. Are we going for a tier with everything included that is balanced? Or are we only dropping stuff if it makes the tier more fun? I like the council's current stance of keeping G-Weezing banned, but it's probably balanced to unban it.

Scizor
I checked my builder, and I have never used Scizor. Weird. No opinion beyond a mild feeling that it's fine.

Hide

KaenSoul If you're doing Elo checks for the survey like OU does, I'm "zdzd zdzd" on the ladder but put my Smogon username on the form. Thanks for putting out a survey.

 

[excitedly ava]

Kyogre
Turn 1 Water Spout sucks to take, no point in sugarcoating it. After that first turn, though, you realistically hardly ever face that 150 BP again. Kyogre gets chipped easily. Hazards are easy to get up and keep up, and priority is everywhere.

I don't really understand this, quite frankly. I've ran a somewhat unique Rain team with both Dry Skin and Rain Dish Blastoise, and it gives Kyogre a longevity that feels borderline unbeatable. Honestly, even just Dry Skin gives it a good resource to counter hazards (and why wouldn't you run Dry Skin with rain). So to say that it's ruined by hazards is just not really correct in my opinion. As for Priority, there's plenty of mons that fit on rain teams that counter prio spam (Archaludon, namely). I realize that it's probably understandable to say that Kyogre isn't completely broken, however given the resources and combinations it has, it creates a team archetype that, in my opinion, is too strong and has too much variety. You have defensive switch-ins, slow Pivots, Rain setters/abusers, wall-breakers, sweepers, utility mons, all of which fit perfectly under the umbrella of Rain (haha), all thanks to this big-ass whale with a $30 haircut.

Rain in and of itself is NOT the problem, the problem is that rain both is enabled and enables Kyogre - an already strong pokemon - to take teams to a level where sometimes the only counter is more Rain. Sure, there's checks, like Wo-Chien, but at that point just...run something with U-Turn, like Thundurus. Gets Thunder, Weather Ball, Wildbolt Storm...need I say more? It's just so easy to come up with answers to the checks to Kyogre that still exert massive pressure on an entire opposing team and abuse Rain.
I'm going to just put this here, as well.

Checks and why they don't really work as well as people say they do

- Wo-Chien: a 4x weakness to Bug is just a massive liability. Literally anything with U-turn or Hurricane (which, wouldn't you know it, abuses Rain) can shred it to bits. Also gets ruined by Toxic which is just so, so easy to fit onto any team.
- Groudon: This is going to blow your mind. Thundurus shreds it w Grass Knot, and also gets Weather Ball for the myriad of Grasses that like sun. Like. Not even a contest. And again, it fits PERFECTLY onto rain teams. Imo, no, Groudon does not, in fact, "completely shut down Rain". Also, Walking Wake is legal, and I don't think I need to say anything about that, besides that Proto most certainly does not make it a dead team slot.
- Resists to Water Spout in general: ...no. Just...no. Given how many abilities make the already nuke of a move that Water Spout is even stronger, just...a 1/2 damage doesn't cut it when the abilities are usually making Water Spout more than 2x stronger anyway.

Actual checks

- Ting-Lu: This one is actually pretty good. Dollar-store Ice Scales is a good counter to rain teams, but the problem arises where there's physical attackers too (Basc, namely, which is also, wouldn't you know it, nuts in rain).
- Raging Bolt: Also pretty good. Yeah I don't really have a response to this one, imma be honest. Arch prolly beats it but Rising Voltage is still scary, even ignoring other abilities it'd have. This is the best answer that Sun has to Rain, quite frankly, but still doesn't invalidate rain by any means (Yet again, I bring up Thundurus, since the duo between Kyogre and Thundurus is just that strong imo).
- Water Absorb/Dry Skin Mirrors: Yeah, they work. Not much to say tbh. However, in the case of Dry Skin, that's also abused by rain teams, which also abuse Kyogre, so if your best answer to Rain is more Rain, what's the point anyway?

(Also bc this doesn't really fit in any other paragraph, Scarf Water Spout gives you a turn 1 level of damage output that takes a lot of other prominent offensive mons in the meta at least 4 turns to achieve, and can get even stronger given time to switch around. Idk if that makes sense but it does to me.)

TLDR; Kyogre makes Rain as a whole too strong, so banning it would balance Rain while still keeping it viable due to the insane number of rain abusers in this meta.
#VoteToBanKyogre

Some speculations/thoughts I have given the form for potential bans/restrictions, as well, since I don't wanna spam.

Spoiler

Slush Rush is pointless when it's restricted but probably too strong unrestricted, since it's it means literally anything - not even just Ice types - gets double speed under snow. How terrifying would it be to see a wallbreaker like Crawdaunt, except it's actually fast? No thanks.
Chlorophyll: Same thing but worse, since Berry teams are so common.
Purifying Salt: Good restriction, keep it as it is. It def has the potential to make defensive/stall teams unbreakable.
Clefable: I imagine the ban was due to Magic Guard since I haven't been around for that long, but seems like it could be balanced. Idk tho.
Dondozo: Given that the meta has shifted from primarily prio-spam and physstacking to a lot more special offense, as well as Ice Scales being restricted, doesn't feel necessary to be banned.
Heartflame: Ehhhhhh. Idk, I'm gonna stay silent abt this one.
Magpull: Not sure, tbh. On one hand, trapping is nuts, on the other, the only relevant steel types don't really care. Unbanning it feels safe, but that's a very hesitant claim.
Also, unrelated, Unnerve/As One: Both feel weird since they answer Berry teams easily, however I'm more concerned about As One, since it's also Moxie while not being Moxie, meaning Quaq/Cal-Ice is a pretty scary combination. I think As One should be restricted due to this. Moxie is fine, Unnerve is fine, but both at the same time in one team slot while also being attached to a hard hitting tank? Feels a bit...meh...

 

[InkyDarkBird]

it's so fucking tanky, loses to whirlwind/d-tail tho).

Add in Guard Dog Okidogi >:)
It was what I ran while Zamazenta-Crowned was still legal.

 

[abemaster5]

Got top of the ladder using this rain team on one of my alts

Rain is type strong and Palafin is crazy underrated in this meta, jet punch boosted by technician, adaptability, rain + ignores fluffy and snowballs at any point is very potent and just kills things.

it takes not much turns to set palafin up, get hazards up with smeargle, then just flip turn/uturn until all the modifies is active and get loose, theres not much to counter this then water absorb which is only seen on low ladder on those 6 immunities teams. The damage output these team can deal is off the roof as resistances can even get one shot to jet punch, now imagine wave crash...

Personally i dont mind kyogre in the tier, i'm not opposed to letting it get banned but I haven't felt it be oppressive, on this team specifically I used it more as defensive switch in then nuke because I already have palafin. Though adaptability water spout is a massive threat that looms over everything and comes in clutch if ever needed.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

i tag u to say i believe klawf should be in the watchlist or banned because it allows for some unfair strategies and the only way to counter it is by using espathra, if u dont use espathra chances of u beating a klawf team is very small and thats unhealthy, i peaked

This team is easily countered by Sheer Force. Klawf needs no ban whatsoever.
You should stop being so alarmist and focus on the games you lost, and you should see if the reason why you lost those games checks your team archetype properly.

 

[Bobsican]

Sheer Force doesn't interact with Endure or anything, I presume your point is meant on just hitting the other team, which for offensively oriented teams they can't just do that if they're being outsped by the effect of Anger Shell with Psychic Terrain on top, it's undeniable that the metagame per recent developments has been shifting back into unhealthy offense once again.

 

[Gimlaf]

Sheer Force doesn't interact with Endure or anything, I presume your point is meant on just hitting the other team, which for offensively oriented teams they can't just do that if they're being outsped by the effect of Anger Shell with Psychic Terrain on top, it's undeniable that the metagame per recent developments has been shifting back into unhealthy offense once again.

Sheer Force does interact with Anger Shell and Berserk, by preventing their activation when using Sheer Force affected moves. And while it doesn't prevent Weak Armor from activating, that one relies on being hit with physical moves, so I can see the point of Sheer Force giving that team trouble.

 

[chartung17]

Sheer Force doesn't interact with Endure or anything, I presume your point is meant on just hitting the other team, which for offensively oriented teams they can't just do that if they're being outsped by the effect of Anger Shell with Psychic Terrain on top, it's undeniable that the metagame per recent developments has been shifting back into unhealthy offense once again.

The point is this interaction:

If (and only if) a move is boosted by the effect of Sheer Force, several effects that normally happen after attacking will be skipped. This includes the effects of Eject Button, Red Card, Shell Bell, Kee Berry, and Maranga Berry; the recoil damage from Life Orb; the Abilities Color Change, Pickpocket, Wimp Out, Emergency Exit, Berserk and Anger Shell; as well as Meloetta's opportunity to switch forms if it acquires Sheer Force and uses Relic Song. Other effects are not negated this way; therefore, if a Pokémon with Sheer Force holding a Life Orb uses a move boosted by Sheer Force, it will gain the passive damage boost (because it isn't a secondary effect of the move nor is it on the list of skipped effects), but the Pokémon will not be damaged by the Life Orb.

It looks like you would still get the boost from Weak Armor and Weakness Policy, but Sheer Force effectively neutralizes two of your abilities in addition to boosting the power of your opponent's moves.

 

[abemaster5]

this is one hella fraudalent team so i chose to take back the first place just to not give it to u, kinda petty but that team doesnt deserve it. reason being: it loses to any team with water absorb or dry skin or even psy terrain, it might be a water spam team but u shouldnt auto lose matchups just because opponent decides to use one of the 2 most used abilities in the game and i stand by that

number 1 team here: https://pokepast.es/f226839637419426

proof: View attachment 626414

little flex: i have 2 of the highest gxes in the entire ladder, luffy testing with 83.7 gxe and sharing da powa with 84.6

ill go in detail about my team if anyone is interested tho

the point of this team is to get alot of boosts out of nowhere, klawf gives +1 to everything, moltres gives +1 to spa and armarouge gives +2 spe so anything gets a +3 anytime and then we got adaptability to boost even more and psy terrain to avoid prios and boost our stored power or expanding force, anything on the team aside klawf could sweep anytime thanks to endure support as everyone mon has it for free, petaya on deo cuz its the only mon in the team without alot of weaknesses, if we cant trigger weakness policy atleast we get a +1 from berry anyway, overall its a pretty scary team to face

KaenSoul i tag u to say i believe klawf should be in the watchlist or banned because it allows for some unfair strategies and the only way to counter it is by using espathra, if u dont use espathra chances of u beating a klawf team is very small and thats unhealthy, i peaked first both with this team and with a rain klawf team a few days ago and heres proof View attachment 626415 this was the second team https://pokepast.es/642af54e5812077f

I mean you can say that for any team though? Your klawf team loses extremely hard to sheer force, another pretty popular ability in the metagame, infact i'd say its even more used then any water absorb/dry skin team. I believe every team has its checks and counters and my team isn't any different from yours in terms of its counters. There no such thing as a team that "deserves" first place, stop it with your elitist way of thinking.

 

[excitedly ava]

bro luffy is getting bashed and i am all for it, stop being so cocky my guy. if you want to brag about how good you are do it somewhere else. this thread is meant for discussion, not "haha im better than u lmaoooooooooo ur team SUCKS"

also yeah imma be real anger shell teams never really made sense to me since they lose hard to anything with a decent defensive core and/or toxic, AND with sheer force being so common it's like...why...

and yeah klawf is awful anyways. like anger shell is its only mildly useful thing and it's a mid ability anyway that loses to so many common things. also skill link teams exist and it's so easy to outpredict endure. like. pitifully easy. there's a very good reason why most of the endure abusers either opt for a different set or just arent good.

edit just bc i feel like i didnt put enough emphasis on it: endure is so, so easy to outpredict. like. pitifully easy. also luffy ur entire team loses so insanely hard to defensive teams because what are you gonna do if they just...don't hit you???

 

[vnmmv]

Got top of the ladder using this rain team on one of my alts

The double vests on this team are pretty interesting, particularly Decidueye. The Quaquaval set isn't too surprising since those four attacks are usually all that you want to run. Decidueye has a wider utility movepool, though. Are there certain threats that led to putting AV on Decidueye? The Attack EVs and Dual Wingbeat coverage seem important to me for muscling past those Toxicroak + Kyogre + Ting-Lu cores that might otherwise give you trouble. Nice team and peak.

----------------

PS user odetojank3 (I don't know their Smogon username) played against my Berry team with a neat fat Rain team featuring Eerie Impulse Porygon2. They asked rhetorically what a Berry vs Berry matchup looks like, bemoaning how irritating the constant recovery can be. Here's a game where I lost to Gimlaf. Neither of us is really running a full Berry team, but I think this semi-berry style is better than fully Berry-oriented teams anyway.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2108321628

Both of us brought a Trevenant/Cheek Pouch/Ting-Lu core. Ting-Lu fits on a lot of these teams because Ting-Lu with any sort of recovery is insane. Gimlaf has the tried and true Ursaluna BM plus Zamazenta core, plus a Tauros with Cud Chew to round out the Berry crew. Zamazenta is another mon that significantly benefits from any form of recovery. On my side of the field, I have a Kyogre/Archaludon rain core plus Zamazenta with a Sitrus Berry for stronger HP gains than Gimlaf's Ganlon Berry, at the cost of foregoing boosts. Archaludon has a Kee Berry for recovery and to quickly set up Body Press. I have Dedenne, but in retrospect Maushold is clearly the better Cheek Pouch user. Ting-Lu fits well here because my own Vessel of Ruin nullifies the effects of opposing Vessel of Ruin, leaving my special attackers undeterred.

The easiest way to beat a Berry team is to position an offensive threat that can score OHKOs and nullify the Harvest loops. From preview, I can see that my wincons will be setting up Zamazenta or Archaludon. Arch will be harder to set up because Ursaluna can block Electro Shot, threaten with Earth Power, and hit specially to deny my Stamina boosts and recovery. With all of the opposing passive recovery, I know that Trevenant's Curse can't contribute much. Neither can the Specs Dedenne or Scarf Kyogre; neither mon hits hard enough to score OHKOs through resistances. I could have done a better job of using Kyogre in the early game, though. Ting-Lu will be important to keep alive since it can phaze out Gimlaf's wincons, Zamazenta and Ursaluna. I do not expect Trevenant or Maushold to contribute much on his side, either.

I dorked around with Ting-Lu in the early game despite knowing that I could never score a KO with Ruination. I think that I knew Ting-Lu had to be on the field before Zama or Ursaluna could get set up, or else I would lose on the spot. My mistake was to play scared and keep Ting-Lu on the field indefinitely. That decision cost me early chances at establishing offensive pressure with Kyogre. I should not have switched Zamazenta out at turn 21. Instead, I should have taken the opportunity to establish a OHKO threat or at least force Gimlaf's Tera. I did accomplish that goal later in the game, but Gimlaf's core weathered my Zamazenta's sweep attempt, and he was able to set up his own Zamazenta to take the game.

I wish that I had a full Berry vs Berry replay, but I hope that this game still gives a picture of what the matchup looks like.

 

[excitedly ava]

So Sun is in a weird spot right now, in my opinion, given the state of Rain teams being so common but also having a ton of strong mons to abuse the many boosts that Sun provides. I wanted to build a semi-Berry team that vnmmv mentioned before.

https://pokepast.es/2eed3a8bb4aea32a
I didn't really do any calcs nor can I test this at the moment so this is purely theory crafting, but Belch is a fun move and I wanted to see if I could do something fun with it.

Explanations, they suck

Maushold: Cheek Pouch, P-Bomb, standard stuff. Nothing crazy.
Groudon: It sure is a Groudon
Tauros: Sun abuser, Cud Chew. Struggled to decide between Protect and Flame Charge, and ultimately went with Flame Charge, but Protect is definitely also an option.
Trevenant: Yep
Wo-Chien: Literally just so that opposing Wo-Chiens can't wall.
Grumpig: Belch, Gluttony, Nasty Plot, decent speed. I wanted to fit Appletun to go with it for Ripen but couldn't decide between that or Wo-Chien.

Mostly just a concept, Belch is vastly underused in my opinion with how prominent berry teams are. Grumpig kinda sucks but I feel like some shenanigans could happen.

ok bye (luffy istg if you post a whole-ass essay on why belch sucks i will steal your kneecaps)