Thats ok ill find a way fr thx for the help and suggestions
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SP Shared Power
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
Flare Boost Drifblim + Quick Feet Jolteon + Flame Orb to boost your Sp. Atk and Spe by 50%, it's alright but there are a lot of quicker, easier ways to boost your power in this meta, and they're usually on Pokémon much better than Drifblim.
I ran this for a long time about a year ago. It is not great and is really match up fishing + rng. I ended up having the most success with sticky webs because you need a +2 advantage badly to beat scarfers like zama or flutter mane sun or dragapult. This way I could run thunder with compound eyes(still risky) and modest for a bit more power still faster than maushold max speed. Basculegion was the adaptability user for spin blocking Quaquaval. Ended up running psychic surge to stop priority this was before restriction. Biggest issue ended up being berry teams as jolteon can not 1 shot them with thunder because of grass resists and is to frail for a setup turn. Trevenant curse or dragon tails from appleton ruined jolteon. Raw calm mind was the best idea at the time to break but very risky. Download might be a good idea, that was just not as popular at the time and over looked. Do not use sheer force para luck and confusion luck on alluring voice saved me more than a bit of power from my experience. The set was protect, calm mind, thunder, alluring voice. Best I got on the ladder was low 1400s with that team.
Here's the survey results:
Beyond these results, the userbase has also brought up concerns on Flutter Mane, Maushold, Technician, Grassy Surge + Grassy Glide, Steely Spirit, Cud Chew, Harvest, Cheek Pouch, Groudon, Giratina-O and other boxart legendaries, with two separate users bringing up the idea of unrestricting Swift Swim. Unban-wise, Technician and Rayquaza have been brought up.
These answers will be kept in mind by the council as we move forward, and may become tangible depending on how the tier develops as tiering changes go on.
Stay tuned for any potential tiering action coming soon!
Metagame results (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best):
It seems that the metagame manages to find a decent userbase as the enjoyability rating is decent, but it certainly could be better. The competitiveness is also at an all-time low for the tier, so any tiering action is surely reasonable in my opinion.
Tiering actions for banning or restricting (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering change, and 10 being an immediate tiering action):
It appears that the userbase overall doesn't find Tera and especially Adaptability to be a problem for the tier, so don't expect these to be suspect tested or anything anytime soon. Hustle, Dragon's Maw, Purifying Salt and Solgaleo seem to have mixed reception, and so would realistically remain on the watchlist for now, but with that said, Zamazenta has the highest results in the entire survey, making it a good suspect candidate.
Tiering actions for unbanning (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering change, and 10 being an immediate unban):
Deoxys-A sits well in last place as the Pokémon the userbase desires the least to have back into the tier, and to be fair it'd be a nightmare to check under Psychic Terrain. Scizor and Arceus-Flying stand next around the 4.5 range, so they likely aren't going going to be suspect tested soon, and finally there's Palafin, Chi-Yu, and Rillaboom sitting around an average of 5.5, easing their way into the watchlist for now, with Conkeldurr peaking the unbanning candidates with a 5.8 average rating.
Tiering actions for unrestricting (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering change, and 10 being an immediate unrestriction):
Good as Gold has scored the lowest in the entire survey, showing that there is barely any desire to reintroduce its unrestricted state to the metagame.
| Enjoyability | 7.1 |
| Competitiveness | 5.7 |
It seems that the metagame manages to find a decent userbase as the enjoyability rating is decent, but it certainly could be better. The competitiveness is also at an all-time low for the tier, so any tiering action is surely reasonable in my opinion.
Tiering actions for banning or restricting (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering change, and 10 being an immediate tiering action):
| Terastal | 4.3 |
| Hustle | 4.55 |
| Adaptability | 3.1 |
| Dragon's Maw | 4.6 |
| Purifying Salt | 5.2 |
| Zamazenta | 6.55 |
| Solgaleo | 5.25 |
It appears that the userbase overall doesn't find Tera and especially Adaptability to be a problem for the tier, so don't expect these to be suspect tested or anything anytime soon. Hustle, Dragon's Maw, Purifying Salt and Solgaleo seem to have mixed reception, and so would realistically remain on the watchlist for now, but with that said, Zamazenta has the highest results in the entire survey, making it a good suspect candidate.
Tiering actions for unbanning (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering change, and 10 being an immediate unban):
| Palafin | 5.45 |
| Chi-Yu (Beads of Ruin restricted) | 5.6 |
| Conkeldurr | 5.8 |
| Rillaboom | 5.5 |
| Scizor | 4.65 |
| Arceus-Flying | 4.8 |
| Deoxys-Attack | 3.55 |
Deoxys-A sits well in last place as the Pokémon the userbase desires the least to have back into the tier, and to be fair it'd be a nightmare to check under Psychic Terrain. Scizor and Arceus-Flying stand next around the 4.5 range, so they likely aren't going going to be suspect tested soon, and finally there's Palafin, Chi-Yu, and Rillaboom sitting around an average of 5.5, easing their way into the watchlist for now, with Conkeldurr peaking the unbanning candidates with a 5.8 average rating.
Tiering actions for unrestricting (average, ranging from 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering change, and 10 being an immediate unrestriction):
| Good as Gold | 2.15 |
Good as Gold has scored the lowest in the entire survey, showing that there is barely any desire to reintroduce its unrestricted state to the metagame.
Beyond these results, the userbase has also brought up concerns on Flutter Mane, Maushold, Technician, Grassy Surge + Grassy Glide, Steely Spirit, Cud Chew, Harvest, Cheek Pouch, Groudon, Giratina-O and other boxart legendaries, with two separate users bringing up the idea of unrestricting Swift Swim. Unban-wise, Technician and Rayquaza have been brought up.
These answers will be kept in mind by the council as we move forward, and may become tangible depending on how the tier develops as tiering changes go on.
Stay tuned for any potential tiering action coming soon!
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Flare feet teams used to be scary, but once spectrier got banned I feel like they fell off hard.
Tbh I feel like spectrier should have been at least mentioned on the survey, since I feel like after it got banned, special oriented teams were basically obliterated. The only good special spam teams I have seen are all just flutter sun teams, which just gets tiring after a while.
Team dump!
Good and new
Detailed Flutter Mane: https://pokepast.es/aec5a80460888bc7
Rip off of an arkeis team plus flutter that I used to peak 1695, also fixed my GXE finally. Flutter Mane will boost Defense after a Dauntless Shield boost, but Special Defense beforehand. The speed creeps Punching Glove Urshifu. The Special Attack is enough to force physically defensive Toxapex to Recover/Haze loop until they run out of Recovers.
Tri Attack Terapagos https://pokepast.es/10ed5ff995bbab85
Tri attack is actually stronger than starstorm after tera. Helped a little with the peak to avoid cteams
Another Arceus-Dragon: https://pokepast.es/b0735f79e10e2cf3
Rip off of 260Torrent teams, just replaced houndstone with Zama
Scrappy Urshifu: https://pokepast.es/b094bd488c405a39
Weakest team of the four here, but very hard to wall. Obligatory note that Punching Glove doesn't interact with Sucker Punch.
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Good but posted already
Sash spam + Terapagos https://pokepast.es/f2006ba7418bb272
Toedscruel stall https://pokepast.es/05d0b3b1961c2058
Either this team or the first one are the best teams in this post. But don't use this for reqs unless you're okay with games taking forever.
Dragon Ubers spam: https://pokepast.es/c2ab45b87b3e21f7
Still decent, could probably use better speed control. Maybe swap bax for scarf pult
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Funky - I think it's possible to get reqs with these teams, but caveat emptor.
Double Libero/Protean Webs https://pokepast.es/75b67dcdf05d3057
Sneakily a Dark spam. Libero + Protean will change your type on the first and second moves, which is nice to pick stuff off with Sucker Punch. Loses badly to Zama unfortunately
Paraflinch https://pokepast.es/58bc24e0a98de319
Custap Harvest https://pokepast.es/050083990b40b53e
probably the worst team here except for the next one, but also the funniest
Scarf Spam https://pokepast.es/0ff6cd87c8632765
Great speed control, sort of, but it's an objectively bad team since it auto loses to anything with Agility like, say, Zamazenta. This is what I got reqs with. Speed control is messed up right now. Probably need to do another run with a more standard team to make up my mind about Zamazenta.
If you haven’t seen it yet, the Zamazenta suspect is live! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shared-power-suspect-7-angel-island-zamazenta.3769515/
Good and new
Detailed Flutter Mane: https://pokepast.es/aec5a80460888bc7
Rip off of an arkeis team plus flutter that I used to peak 1695, also fixed my GXE finally. Flutter Mane will boost Defense after a Dauntless Shield boost, but Special Defense beforehand. The speed creeps Punching Glove Urshifu. The Special Attack is enough to force physically defensive Toxapex to Recover/Haze loop until they run out of Recovers.
Tri Attack Terapagos https://pokepast.es/10ed5ff995bbab85
Tri attack is actually stronger than starstorm after tera. Helped a little with the peak to avoid cteams
Another Arceus-Dragon: https://pokepast.es/b0735f79e10e2cf3
Rip off of 260Torrent teams, just replaced houndstone with Zama
Scrappy Urshifu: https://pokepast.es/b094bd488c405a39
Weakest team of the four here, but very hard to wall. Obligatory note that Punching Glove doesn't interact with Sucker Punch.
------------------------------------
Good but posted already
Sash spam + Terapagos https://pokepast.es/f2006ba7418bb272
Toedscruel stall https://pokepast.es/05d0b3b1961c2058
Either this team or the first one are the best teams in this post. But don't use this for reqs unless you're okay with games taking forever.
Dragon Ubers spam: https://pokepast.es/c2ab45b87b3e21f7
Still decent, could probably use better speed control. Maybe swap bax for scarf pult
------------------------------------
Funky - I think it's possible to get reqs with these teams, but caveat emptor.
Double Libero/Protean Webs https://pokepast.es/75b67dcdf05d3057
Sneakily a Dark spam. Libero + Protean will change your type on the first and second moves, which is nice to pick stuff off with Sucker Punch. Loses badly to Zama unfortunately
Paraflinch https://pokepast.es/58bc24e0a98de319
Custap Harvest https://pokepast.es/050083990b40b53e
probably the worst team here except for the next one, but also the funniest
Scarf Spam https://pokepast.es/0ff6cd87c8632765
Great speed control, sort of, but it's an objectively bad team since it auto loses to anything with Agility like, say, Zamazenta. This is what I got reqs with. Speed control is messed up right now. Probably need to do another run with a more standard team to make up my mind about Zamazenta.
If you haven’t seen it yet, the Zamazenta suspect is live! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shared-power-suspect-7-angel-island-zamazenta.3769515/
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Under used Leads
I want to look at some uncommon leads that are under used in the current meta. Some I think could be big risers at some point as they have really good potential and others offer some opening for new strategies.
Azelf is my first under used pokemon, as of July is ranked 66th on the list for usage as a lead in shared power. https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-07/leads/gen9sharedpower-1500.txt I think is this criminally under used for 3 specific reasons. 1st it is the 4th fastest stealth rocker available in gen9 with base 115 speed. 2nd it has taunt and with the speed it makes a great option to deny enemy hazards particularly lycanrock-dusk and golurk the 2nd and 3rd most common leads. 3rd Azelf also donates a fantastic defensive ability in levitate and is a great option for steel spam teams and fluffy. With that being said azelf is a bit of a suicide lead making its main job to get up hazards and deny the opponents. It does offer great attacking power with either physical or special attacks with a fantastic 125 base on both. As well as some great utility in u-turn, trick, screens, and t-wave.
Mamoswine is my second under used lead all way down at 116 on the usage board. IMO this is way to low and is a great lead for bulky offense and setup teams. It may also have a place on more defensive teams as well. The main reason mamoswine is a great option as a lead is its ability oblivious enabling it to setup in front of taunt and encore pokemon like lycanrocks, lando, and heatran. Providing oblivious to teammates enables them to setup and choose moves with much more guaranteed safety being able to click your setup moves in front of lilligants, and mausholds much more freely. It is also beneficial for defensive teams were encore/taunt can ruin progress for example toxapex loves clicking haze, toxic, infest, and recover. 1 taunt/encore ruins toxapex for multiple turns and forces switches. Mamoswine also has some great attacks that bypass the ever present fluffy with ice shard, earthquake, and icicle spear. Mamos biggest down sides are its poor defensive typing and slowish speed that makes it fairly frail.
Brambleghast is my next under rated lead ranked way down at 271 but understandably so. Bramble offers infiltrator and really is good on 1 archetype grassy glide spam but I think this is a great option for those teams as they can get walled by substitutes on bulky defensive teams. Not to mention it has rapid spin to deny the opponents hazards. Its ghost typing is a major deal in a the golurk match up were you force it to choose knocking out brambleghast or setting up hazards. On top that it has multiple non contact moves in poltergeist, bullet seed, and seed bomb to deal with fluffy. Also has 2 priority moves in shadow sneak and grassy glide. It does have spikes as well but those can be match up fishy with levitate being common. Brambleghast is quite frail as well but it's job is to come out the gate swinging and with base 115 atk and 90 spd it does pretty well.
Lastly Tinkaton currently 112 in usage for a lead pokemon. Move pool wise it offers stealth rock, encore, and fake out all great moves for a lead. It also offers an extremely powerful hit in gigaton hammer. However I want to focus on an ability it has and that is own tempo. Something I saw in a low ladder game that was particularly interesting. Own tempo provides immunity to intimidate but the key piece here is immunity to confusion. This allows for your team to choose some pretty powerful moves outrage, thrash, raging fury, and petal dance. I think there is potential here with these 2 things but I have yet to find a good build using this strategy but maybe someone else can make something work. Just some things I have tried petal dance cholorform lilligant in sun with tera fire. Also lilligant with a ton of physical def investment and quiver dance running own tempo itself. Gouging fire running both outrage and raging fury with dragon dance. These are just a few of the things I have tried but maybe someone else can find a more successful team build.
I want to look at some uncommon leads that are under used in the current meta. Some I think could be big risers at some point as they have really good potential and others offer some opening for new strategies.
Azelf is my first under used pokemon, as of July is ranked 66th on the list for usage as a lead in shared power. https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-07/leads/gen9sharedpower-1500.txt I think is this criminally under used for 3 specific reasons. 1st it is the 4th fastest stealth rocker available in gen9 with base 115 speed. 2nd it has taunt and with the speed it makes a great option to deny enemy hazards particularly lycanrock-dusk and golurk the 2nd and 3rd most common leads. 3rd Azelf also donates a fantastic defensive ability in levitate and is a great option for steel spam teams and fluffy. With that being said azelf is a bit of a suicide lead making its main job to get up hazards and deny the opponents. It does offer great attacking power with either physical or special attacks with a fantastic 125 base on both. As well as some great utility in u-turn, trick, screens, and t-wave.
Mamoswine is my second under used lead all way down at 116 on the usage board. IMO this is way to low and is a great lead for bulky offense and setup teams. It may also have a place on more defensive teams as well. The main reason mamoswine is a great option as a lead is its ability oblivious enabling it to setup in front of taunt and encore pokemon like lycanrocks, lando, and heatran. Providing oblivious to teammates enables them to setup and choose moves with much more guaranteed safety being able to click your setup moves in front of lilligants, and mausholds much more freely. It is also beneficial for defensive teams were encore/taunt can ruin progress for example toxapex loves clicking haze, toxic, infest, and recover. 1 taunt/encore ruins toxapex for multiple turns and forces switches. Mamoswine also has some great attacks that bypass the ever present fluffy with ice shard, earthquake, and icicle spear. Mamos biggest down sides are its poor defensive typing and slowish speed that makes it fairly frail.
Brambleghast is my next under rated lead ranked way down at 271 but understandably so. Bramble offers infiltrator and really is good on 1 archetype grassy glide spam but I think this is a great option for those teams as they can get walled by substitutes on bulky defensive teams. Not to mention it has rapid spin to deny the opponents hazards. Its ghost typing is a major deal in a the golurk match up were you force it to choose knocking out brambleghast or setting up hazards. On top that it has multiple non contact moves in poltergeist, bullet seed, and seed bomb to deal with fluffy. Also has 2 priority moves in shadow sneak and grassy glide. It does have spikes as well but those can be match up fishy with levitate being common. Brambleghast is quite frail as well but it's job is to come out the gate swinging and with base 115 atk and 90 spd it does pretty well.
Lastly Tinkaton currently 112 in usage for a lead pokemon. Move pool wise it offers stealth rock, encore, and fake out all great moves for a lead. It also offers an extremely powerful hit in gigaton hammer. However I want to focus on an ability it has and that is own tempo. Something I saw in a low ladder game that was particularly interesting. Own tempo provides immunity to intimidate but the key piece here is immunity to confusion. This allows for your team to choose some pretty powerful moves outrage, thrash, raging fury, and petal dance. I think there is potential here with these 2 things but I have yet to find a good build using this strategy but maybe someone else can make something work. Just some things I have tried petal dance cholorform lilligant in sun with tera fire. Also lilligant with a ton of physical def investment and quiver dance running own tempo itself. Gouging fire running both outrage and raging fury with dragon dance. These are just a few of the things I have tried but maybe someone else can find a more successful team build.
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https://pokepast.es/bb5ab15e1bdd08bc
Has anyone else noticed Mew isn’t banned, ergo imprison transform isn’t banned?
Like, this team maybe has ice body or garg/shed skin on cyclizar ideas? I know that especially in this OM tons of mons run pivot moves but I don’t think many teams are ready for a pocket oblivious imprison mew.
Has anyone else noticed Mew isn’t banned, ergo imprison transform isn’t banned?
Like, this team maybe has ice body or garg/shed skin on cyclizar ideas? I know that especially in this OM tons of mons run pivot moves but I don’t think many teams are ready for a pocket oblivious imprison mew.
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Mew is interesting because of its great move pool. However its ability is not the greatest and relies on your opponent. Currently with purifying salt available, a much better ability, synchronize is just not great. With purifying salt available teams are carrying less status which also harms the viability of synchronize and other status abilities. Also mew has a terrible typing in psychic and is forced to tera often to be of use. It loses to extremely common threats in the meta crawdaunt, giratina, wo chien, houndstone, meowscarada, and flutter mane. This greatly harms mew's more defensive support sets. Sadly 100 base speed is nothing to write home about either and would require a lot of support to work as an offensive threat.
Sadly if you want to run mew there are generally better pokemon to pick that are also psychic pokemon for example a physical atkers iron boulder/Solgalea, sptakers iron crown/lat twins, and support/defensive jirachi/bro-kings/lugia/indeedee. All of these offer much better potential over mew for a given role and offer better ability combinations.
Mews major advantage is unpredictability and in shared power team archetypes are pretty defined in team preview. Allowing oppenents to have a good idea what mew will be doing on a team. For example if you see tough claws+moxie you almost instantly know it is physical or if you see ting lu + fluffy+ wo chien your are thinking setup/status spreader. Really the only way to keep the unpredicatablity is adapt+protean with a wide move pool allows mew to become any type.
I have seen attempts, the issue with imprison transform is that defensive teams basically don’t care most of the time, and offensive teams take mew out extremely easily in sp. At best you catch somebody who doesn’t know the set off guard and get a ko, and then get some chip before mew goes down. Usually you get less than that
i'm back with the really bad gimmick teams, this time sv flavored!
full type immunity 2, electric boogaloo
im still not done refining this team, so expect changes.
thundurus @ assault vest
self explanatory. murder is legal.
azumarill @ leftovers
leftovers can be exchanged for sitrus berry.
the goat of this team alongside clefable, and an absolute must. tanky and high-powered when you can get a belly drum down
clefable @ heavy-duty boots
another must of this team, clefable is the glue holding this all together. tanks like a champ and can hold its own and allows for pivots to other teammembers
may swap unaware with magic guard later? need to experiment with that
daschbun @ kee berry
kee berry??? kee berry???
kee may be exchanged for ganlon, i just like how kee works better
well-baked is preferable over flash fire, since there are no fire types on team to really benefit from flash fire. orthworm will heavily benefit from well-baked if all goes well
orthworm @ leftovers
may be exchanged with a levitate mon later because of hazards? im still workin with it
clodsire @ leftovers
originally was wellspring ogerpon, but im still new to sv meta and dont really know how ogerpon works. tanky hazard setup for when orthworm falls through.
full type immunity 2, electric boogaloo
im still not done refining this team, so expect changes.
thundurus @ assault vest
self explanatory. murder is legal.
azumarill @ leftovers
leftovers can be exchanged for sitrus berry.
the goat of this team alongside clefable, and an absolute must. tanky and high-powered when you can get a belly drum down
clefable @ heavy-duty boots
another must of this team, clefable is the glue holding this all together. tanks like a champ and can hold its own and allows for pivots to other teammembers
may swap unaware with magic guard later? need to experiment with that
daschbun @ kee berry
kee berry??? kee berry???
kee may be exchanged for ganlon, i just like how kee works better
well-baked is preferable over flash fire, since there are no fire types on team to really benefit from flash fire. orthworm will heavily benefit from well-baked if all goes well
orthworm @ leftovers
may be exchanged with a levitate mon later because of hazards? im still workin with it
clodsire @ leftovers
originally was wellspring ogerpon, but im still new to sv meta and dont really know how ogerpon works. tanky hazard setup for when orthworm falls through.
i'm back with the really bad gimmick teams, this time sv flavored!
full type immunity 2, electric boogaloo
im still not done refining this team, so expect changes.
thundurus @ assault vest
self explanatory. murder is legal.
azumarill @ leftovers
leftovers can be exchanged for sitrus berry.
the goat of this team alongside clefable, and an absolute must. tanky and high-powered when you can get a belly drum down
clefable @ heavy-duty boots
another must of this team, clefable is the glue holding this all together. tanks like a champ and can hold its own and allows for pivots to other teammembers
may swap unaware with magic guard later? need to experiment with that
daschbun @ kee berry
kee berry??? kee berry???
kee may be exchanged for ganlon, i just like how kee works better
well-baked is preferable over flash fire, since there are no fire types on team to really benefit from flash fire. orthworm will heavily benefit from well-baked if all goes well
orthworm @ leftovers
may be exchanged with a levitate mon later because of hazards? im still workin with it
clodsire @ leftovers
originally was wellspring ogerpon, but im still new to sv meta and dont really know how ogerpon works. tanky hazard setup for when orthworm falls through.
Hi there, here some suggestions that can improve it:
: ok good enough, might be a decent lead. Tera Ghost seems better for spinblocking though (plus it gives you Fighting immunity).
: I don't think AV is good on this mon, you need boots since you do not have any hazard control. Also Tera Flying would be better with the Electric immunity. You could go for Flying STAB Tera Blast and Volt Switch respectively instead of Dark Pulse and Psychic, and Thunderbolt over Windbolt Storm.
: if you go for Belly Drum, you absolutely need Aqua Jet + Sitrus Berry. Trailblaze is generally bad if you don't run any EV in speed. Also Liquidation over Waterfall is better.
I'd go Rocky Helmet for chip damage, or lefties, and Protect over Stomping Tantrum. Otherwise it looks okay.
: seems to be a fine wincon, but I'd go Magic Guard.
: I'd remove both Spikes/SR/T-Spikes for Curse, Toxic and Earthquake.If you do not wish to run a spinner, then you can consider having a Levitate user (
is a good one) so you won't be hurt by Spikes.Hi there, here some suggestions that can improve it:
If you do not wish to run a spinner, then you can consider having a Levitate user (
awesome, thanks for the help! im still new to the sv meta like i said and am a bit rusty in teambuilding otherwise.
can i ask why tbolt over windbolt? windbolt has a higher base damage and a higher chance to paralyze than tbolt
anyway heres the revised team im working with
"about to fly over, levitate that place"
thundurus @ heavy-duty boots
psychic exchanged for tera blast, keeping dark pulse for flinch and windbolt for stab + prz
azumarill @ sitrus berry
sitrus did make more sense in the longer run. thought with leftovers azu makes for a good pivot.
daschbun @ kee berry
no changes here. stomping tantrum is for coverage (i hate garganacl) but can be changed out
clefable @ heavy-duty boots
nothing changed here
clodsire @ leftovers
a little more offensive now, only kept rocks
giratina @ griesous orb
nuclear bomb
some battles showcasing this new setup:
- unaware doing work
- this forfeit was just a little funny
- very close match
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why does every time i think of a new team idea one of the Pokemons i need for it aren't in the gen :(
back at it again at krispy kreme
this ones still unpolished as well. just kind of a silly thing i thought of
i live in a low income housing environment that goes by the government name of "section 8"
serene grace flinch/status gimmick!
jirachi @ leftovers
should be the first sent out. this entire team is a serene grace gimmick, so start with jirachi.
standard prz/flinch movepool.
clefable @ quick claw
unaware, because for some reason magic guard isnt shared. we (mostly) solve this problem with giratina.
just a tank. may be swapped for another mon probably.
prz/flinch + moonblast. low speed, hence quick claw. thunder relies on pelipper for accuracy.
gargnacl @ quick claw
we used to ride these babies for miles
also prz/flinch.
chosen for purifying salt because i was fighting a few toxic gimmicks while testing. may be replaced, giratina is kinda doing its job now?
considering switching out for rain dish.
kyurem @ assault vest
rainbow, prz/flinch, and shadow ball
may need to be swapped for a mon with better bst, probably? i was just looking for ancient power mons with pretty evenly high atk and spa stats.
giratina @ griseous core
rainbow, prz/flinch. thunder relies on pelipper for accuracy.
pelipper @ quick claw
because kyogre is banned :(
prz/flinch/confuse, but too slow and dies kind of quickly. sadly the only other drizzle option is politoed, who has a better bst, but a lackluster moveset.
you could probably swap this for a rain dance mon, i just kinda dislike having to use moves for weather.
sample replays:
- forfeit at turn 14
- this one ends poorly but showcases the consequences of the opponent having drizzle
if anyone has suggestions for tweaking this team lmk! its current pretty bad weakness is its speed, so it relies a lot on that 20% chance from quick claw for flinches. i enjoy pokemon rng.
this ones still unpolished as well. just kind of a silly thing i thought of
i live in a low income housing environment that goes by the government name of "section 8"
serene grace flinch/status gimmick!
jirachi @ leftovers
should be the first sent out. this entire team is a serene grace gimmick, so start with jirachi.
standard prz/flinch movepool.
clefable @ quick claw
unaware, because for some reason magic guard isnt shared. we (mostly) solve this problem with giratina.
just a tank. may be swapped for another mon probably.
prz/flinch + moonblast. low speed, hence quick claw. thunder relies on pelipper for accuracy.
gargnacl @ quick claw
we used to ride these babies for miles
also prz/flinch.
chosen for purifying salt because i was fighting a few toxic gimmicks while testing. may be replaced, giratina is kinda doing its job now?
considering switching out for rain dish.
kyurem @ assault vest
rainbow, prz/flinch, and shadow ball
may need to be swapped for a mon with better bst, probably? i was just looking for ancient power mons with pretty evenly high atk and spa stats.
giratina @ griseous core
rainbow, prz/flinch. thunder relies on pelipper for accuracy.
pelipper @ quick claw
because kyogre is banned :(
prz/flinch/confuse, but too slow and dies kind of quickly. sadly the only other drizzle option is politoed, who has a better bst, but a lackluster moveset.
you could probably swap this for a rain dance mon, i just kinda dislike having to use moves for weather.
sample replays:
- forfeit at turn 14
- this one ends poorly but showcases the consequences of the opponent having drizzle
if anyone has suggestions for tweaking this team lmk! its current pretty bad weakness is its speed, so it relies a lot on that 20% chance from quick claw for flinches. i enjoy pokemon rng.
no guard team with zap canon/inferno pokemons?
No Guard Inferno doesn’t exist because Charizard is unviable and Chi-Yu is banned. No Guard Zap Cannon does exist, but only really on Raging Bolt, Porygon-Z, and Deoxys, and Raging Bolt and Deoxys probably prefer No Guard Thunder anyways to avoid being countered by Bulletproof.
An old Zap Cannon team with Raging Bolt (needs a replacement for Zamazenta):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2404622335
An old Zap Cannon team with Raging Bolt (needs a replacement for Zamazenta):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2404622335
I think Solgaleo could work as a decent replacement here. Access to Stone Edge, comparable bulk, with slightly more attack power at the cost of speed (which can be remedied via Flame Charge or Agility). Losing Dauntless Shield means Raging Bolt's Body Press won't hit quite as hard, but Full Metal Body isn't a terrible replacement. Might even fair better now that teams like yours have started running Intimidate.
Actually chandelure has inferno so if you wanna use him you can
Drizzle + thunder/hurricane, is another potential option but can be unreliable verse sun. However could be a unique way to enable dry skin, with any proc of para/confusion/flinch granting a "free" turn of healing. Just a few options that could abuse this Ho-Oh, Lugia, Arceus, and Zapdos. All get hurricane and thunder well being decent to great defensively to make use of the healing.
Unaware isn’t shared either, both are restricted, but unaware is usually more useful.
Might I suggest hydration instead. Gives access to rest healing for survivability while still offering anti status.
I think you probably want recovery of some sort on pelipper, and maybe even tailwind? Not usually great in singles but it might work.
Other than that I have a few more general suggestions.
You might want to specialize a bit—packing all the chances onto every pokémon without putting any utility is probably less effective than ensuring every pokémon has a role that it performs well.
I’d probably want to fit a hisuian decidueye on, scrappy is nice for some of what you’re doing anyway and triple arrows is absurd (100% to lower defense and 60% flinch) probably a scarf set if you try it?
is there room for sticky webs? Or maybe a proper defensive ability or two, houndstone doesn’t synergize well but maybe ting Lu?
Speed Control vs Psychic Terrain and Weather
A few months ago, Gimlaf made a Flutter Mane team, and Byleth made a Lycanroc team. Both teams use Psychic Terrain, and both use weather with a Scarf to reach 911 Speed and 1065 Speed on their respective cleaners. I think about these teams a lot. They are the ultimate in speed control. Either of these Pokemon can guarantee that they are the fastest mon on the field on any given turn. That ability is devastating for opposing hyper offense, which can't really afford to fit defensive counters. A hyper offense that can't beat these two is just a matchup fish. I count both of the mons here as the peak of speed control, even though Lycanroc outspeeds Flutter Mane at max speed. Flutter Mane can come in after a sac and outspeed Lycanroc in the Sun.
To be clear, I do not think that either of these Pokemon are broken. Something has to be the fastest Pokemon in the meta. I do think that the Lycanroc team is broken, but that's more a function of Hustle than Lycanroc. Psychic Terrain might be broken still, too, but I am less confident in that opinion. Regardless, I started writing a list of viable ways to deal with extremely fast Pokemon under Psychic Terrain, ignoring defensive builds since the solutions are obvious. I thought I'd expand on the list a bit and share it here.
1. Grassy Terrain
What if we could just use priority against Psychic Terrain and render all that speed moot? Grassy Terrain removes Psychic Terrain and allows Grassy Glide users to go crazy. The archetype is very strong against terrain HOs, priority HOs, and teams overly reliant on Fluffy. Nuza authored the definitive Grassy Terrain team, and Ogerpon is the beating heart. I think that the choice of Spiky Shield on Ogerpon is brilliant because it lets Ogerpon beat Lokix. Overall, very good archetype with a great Psychic Terrain/weather matchup.
2. Terapagos
Aaaa I love Terapagos. It's quickly becoming one of my bread and butter picks. Terapagos can remove both Terrain and weather by burning Tera, which is usually okay since Terapagos is the best choice for Tera in most games. Unlike Defog or Ice Spinner, Terapagos can remove terrain even if it is KO'd before moving. This utility allows for Terapagos's teammates to lean heavily into priority and high-speed scarfers like Dragapult. Pagos is a strong Pokemon in its own right, even if its best moves tend to lack synergies. The biggest downside is that Terapagos is limited to one chance for Terrain removal. That's usually fine against Indeedee since people love to sac, but a smart opponent could make trouble by saving Indeedee. As an aside, I like the Rock Polish set's matchup against Grassy Terrain. If you can trade down to a 1v1 against Ogerpon, Terapagos wins by taking away terrain.
3. Sticky Web (plus another form of speed control)
Sticky Web knocks these opponents down from the Speed heavens into the mortal plane. The nice thing about facing Psychic Terrain is that it can't afford to run Levitate, so Webs are great. Lycanroc drops to 710 Speed, and Flutter Mane falls to 607. That's still very fast, but Flutter Mane is now within the range of the fastest scarfers. Lycanroc is still difficult, but is now slower than Scarf Tera Ogerpon as well as many mons that reach +2. I like Ogerpon on webs to guard against Court Change, so it's not a totally unreasonable pick. Getting to +2 Speed can be tough but is achievable for a dedicated player through Weak Armor or boosting moves. Indeedee is a soft target to set up on for any Psychic resist (they never click Encore, trust). Admittedly though, the Lycanroc matchup is still a little hairy. Webs are in a great spot in general right now, in my opinion.
4. Electric Terrain
Electric Terrain is similar to Grassy Terrain, but I am ranking it lower here since priority abusers are surprisingly hard to fit. Iron Valiant can threaten Lycanroc with Vacuum Wave, but Flutter Mane does not care. Scarf Iron Boulder can reach very good speeds in its own right but still falls short. The non-Quark Drive part of the team needs to have some strong priority like Samurott-H, which pairs well with Iron Crown. One of the Adaptability Waters should work, too. But still, these priority users aren't the stars of the team and as such can be a little lacking in power in other matchups.
5. Focus Sash
My current obsession. Focus Sash is hard to read from preview (unless you are playing against me with a Terapagos or against Azq2020). Sash greatly expands the pool of offensive Pokemon that can 1v1 a weather sweeper. Lycanroc's sand is a problem and means that the best you can hope for is a trade. Trading for their team centerpiece is not a bad deal, though. Sashes also facilitate getting ahead in the early game, which allows you to limit opportunities to switch their main sweeper in and out. The obvious downside is that a Sash spam team needs seriously reliable hazard control. I usually pair Sashes with Rapid Spin Terapagos. Reliable removal is rare but so, so nice and also covers the Webs matchup.
5. Iron Bundle Rain
Scarf Iron Bundle in Rain is similar to the above mons in that it comes in, resets the weather, and is faster than nearly everything. The difference is that Iron Bundle is still outsped by Scarf Dragapult, Deoxys, and previously Zamazenta. I think Iron Bundle has a lot of potential right now since it threatens every member of Ting-Lu/Heatran/Levitate Dragon cores. Theoretically, it's very hard to wall when it is getting the reads right. In practice, Bundle is similar to Scarf Deoxys in that it thuds into Tera resists, is overly reliant on getting good Download boosts, and is prone to missing important moves. When Bundle works, though, it offers a nice blend of usefulness against high-speed HO and fat at the same time, plus a nice Aqua Jet resistance on a Scarfer.
6. Ice Spinner
Some day, I want to make a good Ice Spinner team with lots of priority, but I haven't figured it out yet. Several good meta mons get Ice Spinner, like Lilligant-H and Quaquaval. The idea is appealing since a single move requires less commitment than a Pokemon or ability. Unfortunately, Ice Spinner users have to remove terrain after Indeedee is down but before the final sweeper hits the field, or else they won't get the move off. AV Iron Treads could make it work, probably, but that's steering into counterteam territory.
There might be some other stuff that I missed. Here is a team that I used to take #1 for a brief moment at 1594. It puts a few of these ideas together, combining Terapagos, Webs, and Focus Sash spam.
-
-
-
-
-
I hope that the authors of those two teams don't feel picked on. This list applies just as much to stuff like Excadrill and Chlorophyll Lilligant-H as to the above sweepers, so I don't consider it cteaming. Or maybe just a light case of cteaming :)
A few months ago, Gimlaf made a Flutter Mane team, and Byleth made a Lycanroc team. Both teams use Psychic Terrain, and both use weather with a Scarf to reach 911 Speed and 1065 Speed on their respective cleaners. I think about these teams a lot. They are the ultimate in speed control. Either of these Pokemon can guarantee that they are the fastest mon on the field on any given turn. That ability is devastating for opposing hyper offense, which can't really afford to fit defensive counters. A hyper offense that can't beat these two is just a matchup fish. I count both of the mons here as the peak of speed control, even though Lycanroc outspeeds Flutter Mane at max speed. Flutter Mane can come in after a sac and outspeed Lycanroc in the Sun.
To be clear, I do not think that either of these Pokemon are broken. Something has to be the fastest Pokemon in the meta. I do think that the Lycanroc team is broken, but that's more a function of Hustle than Lycanroc. Psychic Terrain might be broken still, too, but I am less confident in that opinion. Regardless, I started writing a list of viable ways to deal with extremely fast Pokemon under Psychic Terrain, ignoring defensive builds since the solutions are obvious. I thought I'd expand on the list a bit and share it here.
1. Grassy Terrain
What if we could just use priority against Psychic Terrain and render all that speed moot? Grassy Terrain removes Psychic Terrain and allows Grassy Glide users to go crazy. The archetype is very strong against terrain HOs, priority HOs, and teams overly reliant on Fluffy. Nuza authored the definitive Grassy Terrain team, and Ogerpon is the beating heart. I think that the choice of Spiky Shield on Ogerpon is brilliant because it lets Ogerpon beat Lokix. Overall, very good archetype with a great Psychic Terrain/weather matchup.
2. Terapagos
Aaaa I love Terapagos. It's quickly becoming one of my bread and butter picks. Terapagos can remove both Terrain and weather by burning Tera, which is usually okay since Terapagos is the best choice for Tera in most games. Unlike Defog or Ice Spinner, Terapagos can remove terrain even if it is KO'd before moving. This utility allows for Terapagos's teammates to lean heavily into priority and high-speed scarfers like Dragapult. Pagos is a strong Pokemon in its own right, even if its best moves tend to lack synergies. The biggest downside is that Terapagos is limited to one chance for Terrain removal. That's usually fine against Indeedee since people love to sac, but a smart opponent could make trouble by saving Indeedee. As an aside, I like the Rock Polish set's matchup against Grassy Terrain. If you can trade down to a 1v1 against Ogerpon, Terapagos wins by taking away terrain.
3. Sticky Web (plus another form of speed control)
Sticky Web knocks these opponents down from the Speed heavens into the mortal plane. The nice thing about facing Psychic Terrain is that it can't afford to run Levitate, so Webs are great. Lycanroc drops to 710 Speed, and Flutter Mane falls to 607. That's still very fast, but Flutter Mane is now within the range of the fastest scarfers. Lycanroc is still difficult, but is now slower than Scarf Tera Ogerpon as well as many mons that reach +2. I like Ogerpon on webs to guard against Court Change, so it's not a totally unreasonable pick. Getting to +2 Speed can be tough but is achievable for a dedicated player through Weak Armor or boosting moves. Indeedee is a soft target to set up on for any Psychic resist (they never click Encore, trust). Admittedly though, the Lycanroc matchup is still a little hairy. Webs are in a great spot in general right now, in my opinion.
4. Electric Terrain
Electric Terrain is similar to Grassy Terrain, but I am ranking it lower here since priority abusers are surprisingly hard to fit. Iron Valiant can threaten Lycanroc with Vacuum Wave, but Flutter Mane does not care. Scarf Iron Boulder can reach very good speeds in its own right but still falls short. The non-Quark Drive part of the team needs to have some strong priority like Samurott-H, which pairs well with Iron Crown. One of the Adaptability Waters should work, too. But still, these priority users aren't the stars of the team and as such can be a little lacking in power in other matchups.
5. Focus Sash
My current obsession. Focus Sash is hard to read from preview (unless you are playing against me with a Terapagos or against Azq2020). Sash greatly expands the pool of offensive Pokemon that can 1v1 a weather sweeper. Lycanroc's sand is a problem and means that the best you can hope for is a trade. Trading for their team centerpiece is not a bad deal, though. Sashes also facilitate getting ahead in the early game, which allows you to limit opportunities to switch their main sweeper in and out. The obvious downside is that a Sash spam team needs seriously reliable hazard control. I usually pair Sashes with Rapid Spin Terapagos. Reliable removal is rare but so, so nice and also covers the Webs matchup.
5. Iron Bundle Rain
Scarf Iron Bundle in Rain is similar to the above mons in that it comes in, resets the weather, and is faster than nearly everything. The difference is that Iron Bundle is still outsped by Scarf Dragapult, Deoxys, and previously Zamazenta. I think Iron Bundle has a lot of potential right now since it threatens every member of Ting-Lu/Heatran/Levitate Dragon cores. Theoretically, it's very hard to wall when it is getting the reads right. In practice, Bundle is similar to Scarf Deoxys in that it thuds into Tera resists, is overly reliant on getting good Download boosts, and is prone to missing important moves. When Bundle works, though, it offers a nice blend of usefulness against high-speed HO and fat at the same time, plus a nice Aqua Jet resistance on a Scarfer.
6. Ice Spinner
Some day, I want to make a good Ice Spinner team with lots of priority, but I haven't figured it out yet. Several good meta mons get Ice Spinner, like Lilligant-H and Quaquaval. The idea is appealing since a single move requires less commitment than a Pokemon or ability. Unfortunately, Ice Spinner users have to remove terrain after Indeedee is down but before the final sweeper hits the field, or else they won't get the move off. AV Iron Treads could make it work, probably, but that's steering into counterteam territory.
There might be some other stuff that I missed. Here is a team that I used to take #1 for a brief moment at 1594. It puts a few of these ideas together, combining Terapagos, Webs, and Focus Sash spam.
-----Quick notes:
-
Physical Terapagos is surprisingly okay since Hustle, Adaptability, and a high BP move in Double Edge make for fine power. The selling point is Rapid Spin, though.
- Cloyster is amazing right now, even without taking advantage of sharing its ability. Cloyster is my pick for what benefits the most from Zamazenta's ban. Shell Smash with Ice Shard gives a lot of options for carrying out sweeps, and all the moves ignore Fluffy. Great mon.
- Neutral karma passed me this Galvantula set shortly before their ban. The EVs will allow Galvantula to survive Accelerock from lead Lycanroc-Dusk, while Mental Herb beats Taunt. Therefore you should be able to get Webs up as long as you lead Galvantula.
- Lilligant has Petal Blizzard over Bullet Seed since Cloyster is more of a final sweeper/cleaner than an early game mon.
- After goldbanker27's Basculegion agenda post, I am down on Crawdaunt, too. For sash spam, though, I like it best since it can choose to set up.
- Mostly here to facilitate Rapid Spin. Scrappy is still really good even with Zama gone since it takes advantage of rising Intimidate usage. Endeavor is sneaky here with Tera Fire. You can Tera, U-Turn out a couple times, take full Rocks + Spikes damage, and then drop something like Tera Steel Arceus, Goodra-H, or ID Garganacl that otherwise gives Cloyster trouble.
-
Physical Terapagos is surprisingly okay since Hustle, Adaptability, and a high BP move in Double Edge make for fine power. The selling point is Rapid Spin, though.-
Cloyster is amazing right now, even without taking advantage of sharing its ability. Cloyster is my pick for what benefits the most from Zamazenta's ban. Shell Smash with Ice Shard gives a lot of options for carrying out sweeps, and all the moves ignore Fluffy. Great mon.-
Neutral karma passed me this Galvantula set shortly before their ban. The EVs will allow Galvantula to survive Accelerock from lead Lycanroc-Dusk, while Mental Herb beats Taunt. Therefore you should be able to get Webs up as long as you lead Galvantula.-
Lilligant has Petal Blizzard over Bullet Seed since Cloyster is more of a final sweeper/cleaner than an early game mon.-
After goldbanker27's Basculegion agenda post, I am down on Crawdaunt, too. For sash spam, though, I like it best since it can choose to set up.-
Mostly here to facilitate Rapid Spin. Scrappy is still really good even with Zama gone since it takes advantage of rising Intimidate usage. Endeavor is sneaky here with Tera Fire. You can Tera, U-Turn out a couple times, take full Rocks + Spikes damage, and then drop something like Tera Steel Arceus, Goodra-H, or ID Garganacl that otherwise gives Cloyster trouble.I hope that the authors of those two teams don't feel picked on. This list applies just as much to stuff like Excadrill and Chlorophyll Lilligant-H as to the above sweepers, so I don't consider it cteaming. Or maybe just a light case of cteaming :)
Tbh I've never had much trouble fighting these teams, as the commitment to Scarf means they can really only work as late-game cleanup, making playing around them very easy. Since the Zama ban I've taken to using Solgaleo, and he's fantastic at revenge killing both of these guys, even when he's not at full health. His natural bulk and typing mean he can shrug off Stone Edges and Moonblasts with ease before one-shotting with a Sunsteel Strike, and equipping it with a defensive Tera for the stray Shadow Balls or Crunches you might get ensures you'll survive a hit before easily KO-ing.Speed Control vs Psychic Terrain and Weather
A few months ago, Gimlaf made a Flutter Mane team, and Byleth made a Lycanroc team. Both teams use Psychic Terrain, and both use weather with a Scarf to reach 911 Speed and 1065 Speed on their respective cleaners. I think about these teams a lot. They are the ultimate in speed control. Either of these Pokemon can guarantee that they are the fastest mon on the field on any given turn. That ability is devastating for opposing hyper offense, which can't really afford to fit defensive counters. A hyper offense that can't beat these two is just a matchup fish. I count both of the mons here as the peak of speed control, even though Lycanroc outspeeds Flutter Mane at max speed. Flutter Mane can come in after a sac and outspeed Lycanroc in the Sun.
To be clear, I do not think that either of these Pokemon are broken. Something has to be the fastest Pokemon in the meta. I do think that the Lycanroc team is broken, but that's more a function of Hustle than Lycanroc. Psychic Terrain might be broken still, too, but I am less confident in that opinion. Regardless, I started writing a list of viable ways to deal with extremely fast Pokemon under Psychic Terrain, ignoring defensive builds since the solutions are obvious. I thought I'd expand on the list a bit and share it here.
1. Grassy Terrain
What if we could just use priority against Psychic Terrain and render all that speed moot? Grassy Terrain removes Psychic Terrain and allows Grassy Glide users to go crazy. The archetype is very strong against terrain HOs, priority HOs, and teams overly reliant on Fluffy. Nuza authored the definitive Grassy Terrain team, and Ogerpon is the beating heart. I think that the choice of Spiky Shield on Ogerpon is brilliant because it lets Ogerpon beat Lokix. Overall, very good archetype with a great Psychic Terrain/weather matchup.
2. Terapagos
Aaaa I love Terapagos. It's quickly becoming one of my bread and butter picks. Terapagos can remove both Terrain and weather by burning Tera, which is usually okay since Terapagos is the best choice for Tera in most games. Unlike Defog or Ice Spinner, Terapagos can remove terrain even if it is KO'd before moving. This utility allows for Terapagos's teammates to lean heavily into priority and high-speed scarfers like Dragapult. Pagos is a strong Pokemon in its own right, even if its best moves tend to lack synergies. The biggest downside is that Terapagos is limited to one chance for Terrain removal. That's usually fine against Indeedee since people love to sac, but a smart opponent could make trouble by saving Indeedee. As an aside, I like the Rock Polish set's matchup against Grassy Terrain. If you can trade down to a 1v1 against Ogerpon, Terapagos wins by taking away terrain.
3. Sticky Web (plus another form of speed control)
Sticky Web knocks these opponents down from the Speed heavens into the mortal plane. The nice thing about facing Psychic Terrain is that it can't afford to run Levitate, so Webs are great. Lycanroc drops to 710 Speed, and Flutter Mane falls to 607. That's still very fast, but Flutter Mane is now within the range of the fastest scarfers. Lycanroc is still difficult, but is now slower than Scarf Tera Ogerpon as well as many mons that reach +2. I like Ogerpon on webs to guard against Court Change, so it's not a totally unreasonable pick. Getting to +2 Speed can be tough but is achievable for a dedicated player through Weak Armor or boosting moves. Indeedee is a soft target to set up on for any Psychic resist (they never click Encore, trust). Admittedly though, the Lycanroc matchup is still a little hairy. Webs are in a great spot in general right now, in my opinion.
4. Electric Terrain
Electric Terrain is similar to Grassy Terrain, but I am ranking it lower here since priority abusers are surprisingly hard to fit. Iron Valiant can threaten Lycanroc with Vacuum Wave, but Flutter Mane does not care. Scarf Iron Boulder can reach very good speeds in its own right but still falls short. The non-Quark Drive part of the team needs to have some strong priority like Samurott-H, which pairs well with Iron Crown. One of the Adaptability Waters should work, too. But still, these priority users aren't the stars of the team and as such can be a little lacking in power in other matchups.
5. Focus Sash
My current obsession. Focus Sash is hard to read from preview (unless you are playing against me with a Terapagos or against Azq2020). Sash greatly expands the pool of offensive Pokemon that can 1v1 a weather sweeper. Lycanroc's sand is a problem and means that the best you can hope for is a trade. Trading for their team centerpiece is not a bad deal, though. Sashes also facilitate getting ahead in the early game, which allows you to limit opportunities to switch their main sweeper in and out. The obvious downside is that a Sash spam team needs seriously reliable hazard control. I usually pair Sashes with Rapid Spin Terapagos. Reliable removal is rare but so, so nice and also covers the Webs matchup.
5. Iron Bundle Rain
Scarf Iron Bundle in Rain is similar to the above mons in that it comes in, resets the weather, and is faster than nearly everything. The difference is that Iron Bundle is still outsped by Scarf Dragapult, Deoxys, and previously Zamazenta. I think Iron Bundle has a lot of potential right now since it threatens every member of Ting-Lu/Heatran/Levitate Dragon cores. Theoretically, it's very hard to wall when it is getting the reads right. In practice, Bundle is similar to Scarf Deoxys in that it thuds into Tera resists, is overly reliant on getting good Download boosts, and is prone to missing important moves. When Bundle works, though, it offers a nice blend of usefulness against high-speed HO and fat at the same time, plus a nice Aqua Jet resistance on a Scarfer.
6. Ice Spinner
Some day, I want to make a good Ice Spinner team with lots of priority, but I haven't figured it out yet. Several good meta mons get Ice Spinner, like Lilligant-H and Quaquaval. The idea is appealing since a single move requires less commitment than a Pokemon or ability. Unfortunately, Ice Spinner users have to remove terrain after Indeedee is down but before the final sweeper hits the field, or else they won't get the move off. AV Iron Treads could make it work, probably, but that's steering into counterteam territory.
There might be some other stuff that I missed. Here is a team that I used to take #1 for a brief moment at 1594. It puts a few of these ideas together, combining Terapagos, Webs, and Focus Sash spam.
Quick notes:
-
-
-
-
-
-
I hope that the authors of those two teams don't feel picked on. This list applies just as much to stuff like Excadrill and Chlorophyll Lilligant-H as to the above sweepers, so I don't consider it cteaming. Or maybe just a light case of cteaming :)
I remember fighting your sample team on the ladder, it was very good. Though I'm not personally a fan of item spam, building around around Sashed glass cannons that are protected by a Rapid Spin Terapagos is a very cool strategy.
Speed Control vs Psychic Terrain and Weather
A few months ago, Gimlaf made a Flutter Mane team, and Byleth made a Lycanroc team. Both teams use Psychic Terrain, and both use weather with a Scarf to reach 911 Speed and 1065 Speed on their respective cleaners. I think about these teams a lot. They are the ultimate in speed control. Either of these Pokemon can guarantee that they are the fastest mon on the field on any given turn. That ability is devastating for opposing hyper offense, which can't really afford to fit defensive counters. A hyper offense that can't beat these two is just a matchup fish. I count both of the mons here as the peak of speed control, even though Lycanroc outspeeds Flutter Mane at max speed. Flutter Mane can come in after a sac and outspeed Lycanroc in the Sun.
To be clear, I do not think that either of these Pokemon are broken. Something has to be the fastest Pokemon in the meta. I do think that the Lycanroc team is broken, but that's more a function of Hustle than Lycanroc. Psychic Terrain might be broken still, too, but I am less confident in that opinion. Regardless, I started writing a list of viable ways to deal with extremely fast Pokemon under Psychic Terrain, ignoring defensive builds since the solutions are obvious. I thought I'd expand on the list a bit and share it here.
1. Grassy Terrain
What if we could just use priority against Psychic Terrain and render all that speed moot? Grassy Terrain removes Psychic Terrain and allows Grassy Glide users to go crazy. The archetype is very strong against terrain HOs, priority HOs, and teams overly reliant on Fluffy. Nuza authored the definitive Grassy Terrain team, and Ogerpon is the beating heart. I think that the choice of Spiky Shield on Ogerpon is brilliant because it lets Ogerpon beat Lokix. Overall, very good archetype with a great Psychic Terrain/weather matchup.
2. Terapagos
Aaaa I love Terapagos. It's quickly becoming one of my bread and butter picks. Terapagos can remove both Terrain and weather by burning Tera, which is usually okay since Terapagos is the best choice for Tera in most games. Unlike Defog or Ice Spinner, Terapagos can remove terrain even if it is KO'd before moving. This utility allows for Terapagos's teammates to lean heavily into priority and high-speed scarfers like Dragapult. Pagos is a strong Pokemon in its own right, even if its best moves tend to lack synergies. The biggest downside is that Terapagos is limited to one chance for Terrain removal. That's usually fine against Indeedee since people love to sac, but a smart opponent could make trouble by saving Indeedee. As an aside, I like the Rock Polish set's matchup against Grassy Terrain. If you can trade down to a 1v1 against Ogerpon, Terapagos wins by taking away terrain.
3. Sticky Web (plus another form of speed control)
Sticky Web knocks these opponents down from the Speed heavens into the mortal plane. The nice thing about facing Psychic Terrain is that it can't afford to run Levitate, so Webs are great. Lycanroc drops to 710 Speed, and Flutter Mane falls to 607. That's still very fast, but Flutter Mane is now within the range of the fastest scarfers. Lycanroc is still difficult, but is now slower than Scarf Tera Ogerpon as well as many mons that reach +2. I like Ogerpon on webs to guard against Court Change, so it's not a totally unreasonable pick. Getting to +2 Speed can be tough but is achievable for a dedicated player through Weak Armor or boosting moves. Indeedee is a soft target to set up on for any Psychic resist (they never click Encore, trust). Admittedly though, the Lycanroc matchup is still a little hairy. Webs are in a great spot in general right now, in my opinion.
4. Electric Terrain
Electric Terrain is similar to Grassy Terrain, but I am ranking it lower here since priority abusers are surprisingly hard to fit. Iron Valiant can threaten Lycanroc with Vacuum Wave, but Flutter Mane does not care. Scarf Iron Boulder can reach very good speeds in its own right but still falls short. The non-Quark Drive part of the team needs to have some strong priority like Samurott-H, which pairs well with Iron Crown. One of the Adaptability Waters should work, too. But still, these priority users aren't the stars of the team and as such can be a little lacking in power in other matchups.
5. Focus Sash
My current obsession. Focus Sash is hard to read from preview (unless you are playing against me with a Terapagos or against Azq2020). Sash greatly expands the pool of offensive Pokemon that can 1v1 a weather sweeper. Lycanroc's sand is a problem and means that the best you can hope for is a trade. Trading for their team centerpiece is not a bad deal, though. Sashes also facilitate getting ahead in the early game, which allows you to limit opportunities to switch their main sweeper in and out. The obvious downside is that a Sash spam team needs seriously reliable hazard control. I usually pair Sashes with Rapid Spin Terapagos. Reliable removal is rare but so, so nice and also covers the Webs matchup.
5. Iron Bundle Rain
Scarf Iron Bundle in Rain is similar to the above mons in that it comes in, resets the weather, and is faster than nearly everything. The difference is that Iron Bundle is still outsped by Scarf Dragapult, Deoxys, and previously Zamazenta. I think Iron Bundle has a lot of potential right now since it threatens every member of Ting-Lu/Heatran/Levitate Dragon cores. Theoretically, it's very hard to wall when it is getting the reads right. In practice, Bundle is similar to Scarf Deoxys in that it thuds into Tera resists, is overly reliant on getting good Download boosts, and is prone to missing important moves. When Bundle works, though, it offers a nice blend of usefulness against high-speed HO and fat at the same time, plus a nice Aqua Jet resistance on a Scarfer.
6. Ice Spinner
Some day, I want to make a good Ice Spinner team with lots of priority, but I haven't figured it out yet. Several good meta mons get Ice Spinner, like Lilligant-H and Quaquaval. The idea is appealing since a single move requires less commitment than a Pokemon or ability. Unfortunately, Ice Spinner users have to remove terrain after Indeedee is down but before the final sweeper hits the field, or else they won't get the move off. AV Iron Treads could make it work, probably, but that's steering into counterteam territory.
There might be some other stuff that I missed. Here is a team that I used to take #1 for a brief moment at 1594. It puts a few of these ideas together, combining Terapagos, Webs, and Focus Sash spam.
Quick notes:
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I hope that the authors of those two teams don't feel picked on. This list applies just as much to stuff like Excadrill and Chlorophyll Lilligant-H as to the above sweepers, so I don't consider it cteaming. Or maybe just a light case of cteaming :)
Very excellent post, though I would like to make it clear I don't recommend Scarf on either of these Pokemon as they are fast enough with their own boosting (lycan is at least able to outspeed scarf Dragapult, Flutter Mane anything under Dragapult), and would only serve to counterpick other speed boosting hyper offenses that use the same strategy (in this case u prob do just autowin vs some offense but have a bigger chance to lose to tera or fatter teams) or revenge something that's gotten a greater than x2 speed boost. It is still insane that it is an option though!!!
The real power in my opinion is having a strong speed tier along with having the leeway to switch moves (Life Orb Fluttermane) or being strong enough to still break bulky teams or not chunky resists (Choice Band Lycanroc, who can even destroy sash counterplay with Rock Blast). I do worry about Lycanroc now that Zamazenta is gone, but that issue is for another day, I think regardless most of the reccomendations you stated work decently well for offense to counterplay.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Tera Rock Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 348-410 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Lycanroc team user here -
I almost never have any actual trouble with Solgaleo since it has to be completely saved to deal with Lycanroc and any chip means it just dies now that it can't pair with Zamazenta for the more comfortable +1 Defense Boost. And Flutter can bait Solgaleo's Tera with Substitute. Still a decent one time answer to both, but not super reliable if the speed control isn't running Scarf.