Shaymin-Sky 1/3

[byronthewellwell]

Overview
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Positives:

-60% flinch rate is monstrous
-One of the few mons that can revenge +1 mence
-Scarf variant serves as an emergency check on hyper offensive teams assuming toxic spikes are up
-Great utility in healing wish allowing set up sweepers that have been crippled to come -ack fresh, against weakened checks
-Flying type is great in oras, due to being able to play games with primal groudons and avoid spike/tspike/web effects
-Seed flare breaks walls very nicely

Negatives:

-Is screwed by priority
-Weak to rocks, so has a limited number of switch ins
-Extremely frail, relies on flinches to not get hit


Scarfmin
########
name: Choice Scarf

move 1: Air Slash
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Earth Power/Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Healing Wish
ability:Serene Grace
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
iv: 0 attack
nature: Timid

Moves
========

-Air Slash is Shaymin’s main spammable move to flinch other mons to death.
-Seed Flare is for breaking walls such as Blissey and gets a lot of kos on weakened mons.
-Earth power hits Dialga and Zekrom but is interchangeable with Hp ice for Mega Salamence and other dragons.
-Healing wish provides great support and is excellent late game for setting up/preventing a sweep.


Set Details
========

-Choice Scarf with timid 252 outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame barring scarf mewtwo, or scarf deoxys forms, which are all almost never used.
-Rest into special attack to do as much damage as possible.
-Shaymin's hp is at 341 with no investment, allowing it to live 4 stealth rock switch ins.
-Last 4 evs don't really matter but affect what stat genesect gets boosted in. 4 into special defence mean shaymin will live a flamethrower after rocks, and into defence means that iron head/ u-turn do a lot less.
-0 attack ivs minimizes foul play damage.
-Can also go 80 Hp / 244 SpA / 184 Spe to just outspeed 168 Speed Geoxern which is the basically the only threat to outspeed other than Opposing ScarfMins, and gives a bit of extra bulk, although an extra 20 Hp in an frail pokemon doesn't do that much good, so it is up to you which ev spread to run.

Usage Tips
========

-Choose your move wisely, ie. don't just click air slash if the opponent has rock type. Take it into consideration, and if you think they will switch that in then use seed flare or earth power instead.
-Shaymin hates priority, so don't send it in against common priority users such as Arceus-Normal and scizor.
-If the opponent has a rock type or steel type, prediction is required, when you think said rock/steel type is coming in, choose the appropriate coverage move.
-If a crippled teammate becomes more useful than Shaymin is in the situation they are in, use healing wish.

Team Options
========

-Mega gengar running focus blast can easily dispose of rock/steel type pokemon, and can also suicide to take out Extremekiller Arceus.
-Shaymin works really well with toxic spikes, so pokemon such as Greninja/Scollipede/Cloyster/Quilfish work well with it.
-Shaymin likes to come in for free, so U-turn and Volt Switch users such as Yveltal/Scizor/Zekrom/Thundurus are all greatly appreciated.
-Shaymin dislikes stealth rock, so unless you are using toxic spikes (you don't want to get rid of them), a defog user works well on the team.
-As mentioned above, priority wrecks Shaymin, so checks to Extremekiller Arceus such as Giratina-O, and checks to scizor, such as Ho-oh, and Hp fire mega gengar are a necessity on any Shaymin-Sky team.
-Rapid spinners in general are good teammates, because they allow shaymin to not
get hit by stealth rock, while keeping toxic spikes up on the opponents side, good examples include bulky swords dance mold breaker excadrill, which to an extent can also break stall.

Life Orb
########
name: Life Orb

move 1: Air Slash
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Healing Wish
ability:Serene Grace
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
iv: 0 attack
nature: Timid

Moves
========

-Air slash and seed flare in conjunction with life orb dish out heavy damage to anything that is not a steel type and are perfect for cleaning teams.
-Hidden power is there to ohko Mega Salamence, but can be swapped for Hidden power rock if the team doesn't keep rocks up very reliably for Ho-ohs or even earth power for the occasional Dialga/Arceus-Steel.
-Healing wish combined with Shaymin's amazing speed provides great support and is excellent late game for setting up/preventing a sweep.


Set Details
========

-Timid 252 outspeeds most of the meta, and 252 SpA with life orb is there to maximise damage while still keeping Shaymin lightning quick.
-0 attack ivs minimizes foul play damage.
-0 HP evs (341 HP) is a life orb number.

Usage Tips
========

-Make sure the other team is weakened enough for Shaymin to come in, choose your battles, and have a calc ready.
-Shaymin hates priority, so don't send it in against common priority users such as Arceus-Normal and scizor.
-If a crippled teammate becomes more useful than Shaymin is in the situation they are in, use healing wish.

Team Options
========

-Mega gengar running focus blast can easily dispose of rock/steel type pokemon, and can also suicide to take out Extremekiller Arceus.
-Shaymin works really well with spikes/toxic spikes, so pokemon such as Greninja/Scollipede/Cloyster/Quilfish work well with it.
-Shaymin likes to come in for free, so U-turn and Volt Switch users such as Yveltal/Scizor/Zekrom/Thundurus are all greatly appreciated.
-Shaymin gets wore down very quickly with 25C% from Stealth Rock and 10% from Life Orb, so a defogger, or pressure on the opponents Stealth Rock user is very good.
-As mentioned above, priority wrecks Shaymin, so checks to Extremekiller Arceus such as Giratina-O, and checks to scizor, such as Ho-oh, and Hp fire mega gengar are a necessity on any Shaymin-Sky team.
-Rapid spinners are better than defoggers, because they let you keep your own hazards, which Shaymin needs, so if you can fit one on, it is a good idea, examples of this include cloyster, excadrill, or even custap forretress.

SubSeed
########
name: Subseed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Seed Flare/ Aromatherapy
ability: Serene Grace
item: Leftovers
evs: 44 Hp / 224 SpA / 240 Spe
nature: Timid
iv: 0 Atk

Moves
========

-Substitute/leech seed sets up on a lot of things, and once shaymin has a sub up, it is hard to break unless your name is Mega Kangaskhan or Extremekiller Arceus.
-Air slash increases leech seeds damage, and stops the opponent from doing anything about it by flinching them.
-Seed flare can be used to finish mons or help against fat mons, or aromatherapy can be used instead, it depends on your team, if you already have a cleric, if you are weak to toxicspam etc.

Set Details
========

-Leftovers aid leech seed in recovering Shaymin's hp that goes into a sub.
-0 Atk ivs to reduce damage of foul play.
-240 Speed outspeeds darkrai, 44 hp gives it a lefties number, and rest into special attack.
-Alternatively you can run max speed/special attack and 26 Hp ivs so that leech seed recovers more percentage of the substitute.

Usage Tips
========

-When using this Shaymin make sure to set it up on things that it can tank a hit from, or you can fish for a stone edge miss by repeatedly subbing etc.
-Make sure to conserve pp whenever possible, as substitute and leech seed pp will disappear faster than you think.

Team Options
========

-As with Scarfmin, make sure you have a solid check for priority users.
-Aside from this subseed Shaymin requires little support and next to no opportunity cost.
-Mega gengar is a good option as it removes grass types that are immune to leech seed with ease.


Other Options
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-Can also run a life orb set, which makes for an excellent cleaner.
-Other moves include grass whistle (very unreliable), growth, and psych up.
-Can also run dazzling gleam on scarf or life orb set.
-Can use Hp fire/Hp rock instead of the third slot on life orb/scarf sets to 2hko scizor and 3hko Ho-oh respectively.

Checks & Counters
########

-Ho-oh
-Priority users (Scizor, Ekiller, Rayquaza, Klefki)
-Most Steel types
-Specially defensive giratina-a
-Defog users that can take air slashes well, eg Specially defensive support arceus
-Phasers that can take hits are a threat to the subseed variant, especially if rocks are up on your side, such as dialga and lugia.
-Aeroblast lugia.

Special thanks to Shrang, ThuglyDuckling and ApplepieFTW for advice.

 

[shrang]

In general:
- I'm kind of confused why you'd run max Speed on Scarf but not on SubSeed. Like, SubSeed actually gets quite a bit of mileage for being as fast as it could (at least speed-tying with opposing Skymin), while Scarf probably doesn't need as much Speed as it does. Like I don't think I've seen a single Scarf Darkrai since like, early BW1 or on low ladder, and the next fastest Scarfer is like... Terrakion (which is also rare af). You can't outspeed max Speed Modest Xerneas anyway (and yes, I know no-one good runs that, but it's all or nothing for speed creep, so yeah), although you DO outspeed +1 Mega Sal, which could prove useful. The only other thing you get out of running max Speed is speed-tying other Scarf Skymins, and I don't know if that's worth it.
- So basically, if you're going to go with max Speed, go with max Speed for both sets, since the reasoning is basically "tying with opposing Skymins" at this point. If you're going to get the next best thing, do that for both sets.
- Speed is abbreviated Spe

Scarf:
- EVs: If you don't want to run max Speed, then go with outspeeding +1 Mega Salamence, which also conveniently lets you outspeed Adamant +2 Groudon (again, I'm aware no-one runs max Speed, but speed creeping means all or nothing). 200 EVs with a Timid nature lets you outspeed both +1 Mega Sal and +2 Adamant RP Don.
- HP Rock isn't worth a slash IMO. I'm presuming that if you're running Skymin you have relatively reliable answers to Ho-oh. HP Ice might be worth a mention or a slash since you nicely outspeed Mega Mence and it's kind of big deal to be able to take down that thing quickly. EP would be for Primal Don, while HP Ice is for Mega Mence. While you're there, you could probably slash them with Healing Wish too if your team doesn't need it.
- Also mention how you can anti-lead suicide leads with this. It's not exactly reliable, but hey, if you can get a flinch off it could potentially save you the trouble of having to use Defog later.

SubSeed:
- EVs: See above.

OO:
- Mention Dazzling Gleam in there somewhere IMO.

Counters:
- Mention phazing moves and Pokemon that can take shit from Skymin without much trouble that have them (eg Dialga, Lugia)
- Get rid of Inner Focus, IMO, that ability has absolutely zero relevance to the metagame
- Add Defog. I know most Defog users are susceptible to SubSeed but really, it's not hard to get a Defog off, and without hazards, SubSeed can be stalled out pretty easily if you just keep switching.

I've probably missed some things, but whatever.

 

[Freeroamer]

A super effective Earth Power has exactly the same damage output as a neutral seed flare, so the only benefit you get is perfect accuracy which isn't really worth the 80% chance to halve the opponents Special Defense, which makes Seed Flare a much nicer move to be locked into, as literally nothing appreciates that.

EDIT: This is largely concerning Primal Groudon, of course against Dialga you'll want to hit it with EP.

 

[byronthewellwell]

A super effective Earth Power has exactly the same damage output as a neutral seed flare, so the only benefit you get is perfect accuracy which isn't really worth the 80% chance to halve the opponents Special Defense, which makes Seed Flare a much nicer move to be locked into, as literally nothing appreciates that.

EDIT: This is largely concerning Primal Groudon, of course against Dialga you'll want to hit it with EP.

Yeah it is mainly for zekrom/dialga.

In general:
- I'm kind of confused why you'd run max Speed on Scarf but not on SubSeed. Like, SubSeed actually gets quite a bit of mileage for being as fast as it could (at least speed-tying with opposing Skymin), while Scarf probably doesn't need as much Speed as it does. Like I don't think I've seen a single Scarf Darkrai since like, early BW1 or on low ladder, and the next fastest Scarfer is like... Terrakion (which is also rare af). You can't outspeed max Speed Modest Xerneas anyway (and yes, I know no-one good runs that, but it's all or nothing for speed creep, so yeah), although you DO outspeed +1 Mega Sal, which could prove useful. The only other thing you get out of running max Speed is speed-tying other Scarf Skymins, and I don't know if that's worth it.
- So basically, if you're going to go with max Speed, go with max Speed for both sets, since the reasoning is basically "tying with opposing Skymins" at this point. If you're going to get the next best thing, do that for both sets.
- Speed is abbreviated Spe

Scarf:
- EVs: If you don't want to run max Speed, then go with outspeeding +1 Mega Salamence, which also conveniently lets you outspeed Adamant +2 Groudon (again, I'm aware no-one runs max Speed, but speed creeping means all or nothing). 200 EVs with a Timid nature lets you outspeed both +1 Mega Sal and +2 Adamant RP Don.
- HP Rock isn't worth a slash IMO. I'm presuming that if you're running Skymin you have relatively reliable answers to Ho-oh. HP Ice might be worth a mention or a slash since you nicely outspeed Mega Mence and it's kind of big deal to be able to take down that thing quickly. EP would be for Primal Don, while HP Ice is for Mega Mence. While you're there, you could probably slash them with Healing Wish too if your team doesn't need it.
- Also mention how you can anti-lead suicide leads with this. It's not exactly reliable, but hey, if you can get a flinch off it could potentially save you the trouble of having to use Defog later.

SubSeed:
- EVs: See above.

OO:
- Mention Dazzling Gleam in there somewhere IMO.

Counters:
- Mention phazing moves and Pokemon that can take shit from Skymin without much trouble that have them (eg Dialga, Lugia)
- Get rid of Inner Focus, IMO, that ability has absolutely zero relevance to the metagame
- Add Defog. I know most Defog users are susceptible to SubSeed but really, it's not hard to get a Defog off, and without hazards, SubSeed can be stalled out pretty easily if you just keep switching.

I've probably missed some things, but whatever.

I added in most of the stuff you said, thanks for the advice, but concerning the Speed Evs for the two main sets, i think i will leave as is, unless you can show me a situation where the scarf min needs more bulk, and I believe that having a lefties number for subseed min is better than tying with other max speed non scarf mins. (Unless you are suggesting to run the 26 Hp iv set as main, which I would understand).

 

[Thugly Duckling]

I think a life orb set should be here, I think it has some potential in this meta since it threatens the more commonly seen Darkrai, PDon, and POgre quite a bit. The set is considerably strong in combination with the flinch hax, and with Toxic Spikes support it's just a monster. Not even Lati@s can switch in safely because of the SpD drops from Seed Flare.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Maybe you should mention ev's for 56, 120 and 168 geoxern? For 168 (adamant exca under sand) it is 184+, check the rest yourself bc I gtg now but just wanted to suggest that. Xerneas really shouldn't run more than 168 ev's, but since thats the only relevant thing to outspeed you might as well have a few more ev's in bulk.

 

[Edgar]

Slash Hidden Power Rock and remove Hidden Power Fire / Ice in the Scarf Set, not sure about having Dazzling Gleam as Seed Flare hits almost as hard to mons that would be SE against, not to mention it does 0 to stuff like Latis and Arceus. On C&C mention Steel types in general. Remove Ekiller and Scizor and just add "Priority" imo, as Klefki, Scizor, Ekiller and Rayquaza deal with it smoothly.

 

[byronthewellwell]

Slash Hidden Power Rock and remove Hidden Power Fire / Ice in the Scarf Set, not sure about having Dazzling Gleam as Seed Flare hits almost as hard to mons that would be SE against, not to mention it does 0 to stuff like Latis and Arceus. On C&C mention Steel types in general. Remove Ekiller and Scizor and just add "Priority" imo, as Klefki, Scizor, Ekiller and Rayquaza deal with it smoothly.

Shrang suggested dazzling gleam idk why, hp fire hits scizor, ice hits mence, whereas hp rock does nothing to Ho-oh.
252 SpA Shaymin-S Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 172-204 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Added/removed the other stuff.

 

[shrang]

I did say Dazzling Gleam was an OO option, not a slash or moves option. I've used it before when I needed to role compress revenging Scarf Zekrom and Ygod at the same time, which was very situational. You don't have to add it if you don't want to.

Regarding Hidden Powers:
- Ice: I think this is the most useful on Scarf since it lets you revenge kill +1 Mega Salamence, which is a pretty big deal. Scarf Skymin is like one of the very few Pokemon that can actually revenge Mega Mence as a conventional Scarfer (unless you want to like Scarf Darkrai or Mewtwo, two Pokemon that have WAY better things to do). You can also use it on Rayquaza, although you'd have to be careful of ES. HP Ice actually has a real and appreciated use on the Scarf set, which is why I think it deserves a slash.
- Rock: Like byron's mentioned, it doesn't do much at all against Ho-oh, if SR isn't up (which we're going to presume isn't against Ho-oh since they'll be doing their best to keep them off), they'd just switch straight out to get Regen healing (which means you've done like 8-15% net damage) and come in with something else that can set up on your weak HP Rock (which is a lot). I mean, it's good to deter Ho-oh from switching in, but I don't think HP Rock does even that, especially when you don't even 2HKO it.
- Fire: Like Rock, it's not THAT useful, although at least you do way more to Scizor than HP Rock does to Ho-oh.

Due to the reasons above, I'm going to say slash HP Ice, Rock and Fire in Move Options and Dazzling Gleam either in OO or not in the analysis at all (your choice).

 

[byronthewellwell]

I did say Dazzling Gleam was an OO option, not a slash or moves option. I've used it before when I needed to role compress revenging Scarf Zekrom and Ygod at the same time, which was very situational. You don't have to add it if you don't want to.

Regarding Hidden Powers:
- Ice: I think this is the most useful on Scarf since it lets you revenge kill +1 Mega Salamence, which is a pretty big deal. Scarf Skymin is like one of the very few Pokemon that can actually revenge Mega Mence as a conventional Scarfer (unless you want to like Scarf Darkrai or Mewtwo, two Pokemon that have WAY better things to do). You can also use it on Rayquaza, although you'd have to be careful of ES. HP Ice actually has a real and appreciated use on the Scarf set, which is why I think it deserves a slash.
- Rock: Like byron's mentioned, it doesn't do much at all against Ho-oh, if SR isn't up (which we're going to presume isn't against Ho-oh since they'll be doing their best to keep them off), they'd just switch straight out to get Regen healing (which means you've done like 8-15% net damage) and come in with something else that can set up on your weak HP Rock (which is a lot). I mean, it's good to deter Ho-oh from switching in, but I don't think HP Rock does even that, especially when you don't even 2HKO it.
- Fire: Like Rock, it's not THAT useful, although at least you do way more to Scizor than HP Rock does to Ho-oh.

Due to the reasons above, I'm going to say slash HP Ice, Rock and Fire in Move Options and Dazzling Gleam either in OO or not in the analysis at all (your choice).

Forgot about yveltal, just checked and sucker doesn't Ko, while dazzling gleam does around 50%, more with Lo, so I will definitely put in in OO, also have hp rock now in OO and Fire/Ice slashed in.

 

[shrang]

Maybe you should mention ev's for 56, 120 and 168 geoxern? For 168 (adamant exca under sand) it is 184+, check the rest yourself bc I gtg now but just wanted to suggest that. Xerneas really shouldn't run more than 168 ev's, but since thats the only relevant thing to outspeed you might as well have a few more ev's in bulk.

We shouldn't talk about speed creep benchmarks in analyses, although since those GeoXern numbers outspeed certain things already, you could probably mention THOSE benchmarks (so +1 base 100s for 56, don't do 120 since it's a Webs benchmark and Adamant Excadrill for 168, although is Sand Excadrill still a thing in this P Donner meta).

Otherwise I'm satisfied with this, qc approved 1/3

 

[Sweep]

Overview

This isn't a reliable Geo Xern check, your Air Slashes will be doing ~18% after the boost, while Xerneas needs to be at around 30% health to kill with Seed Flare. Both moves can also miss (albeit rarely), unlike Bullet Punch or ExtremeSpeed. If Xerneas is still somewhat healthy, you will need to be very lucky to actually slay killer deer. Also, Seed Flare doesn't hit hard enough to break walls despite the side effect, especially since many walls in Ubers resist Grass.

Choice Scarf

Change the set's name to "Choice Scarf."

HP Rock and Fire seem awful compared to Earth Power and HP Ice, I'd say they're OO worthy. I don't like HP Ice much either, hopefully Shaymin's team can wear down Salamence to Air Slash range since Salamence isn't that specially bulky.

I like the second spread more than the first spread, I don't feel max Speed is necessary since Scarf Shaymin is a pretty rare Pokemon and you still outrun any GeoXern not run by a <1300 ladder player (lel max speed Xern xd).

Team Options looks pretty good, though rest assured that Swords Dance Excadrill is not breaking ORAS Stall. Be a bit more explicit about Gengar, it can trap and remove Rock- and Steel- types too with Focus Blast and can suicide vs Extremekiller assuming it's already mega evolved. Scarf Shaymin is walled rather easily by many things and even prediction isn't breaking Ho-Oh, Lugia, Giratina, etc. Gengar can't trap Giratina formes unfortunately but it can remove Steelceus / Lugia / etc. Scarf Shaymin can potentially clean late-game if you've removed flying resists & have some fortune.

"Spam Air Slash" is not a good suggestion for Usage Tips, Shaymin requires a fair amount of prediction. Knowing when to Healing Wish and when to keep Shaymin alive is also something I'd like to see stressed. For example if you run HP Ice and know Mega Mence can find a set-up opportunity vs one of Shaymin's teammates, you probably want to keep Shaymin alive even if you only have 26-50% health remaining.

Other Options

/me breathes on HP Fire and HP Rock

Everything else looks good, going to try Life Orb myself to see if it's worthy of a main set. Looks intriguing.

Checks & Counters

Remove Mega Diancie, it dies to Seed Flare and can't switch in on Earth Power either. You can't count on Shaymin running Aromatherapy. Aeroblast Lugia deserves its own mention. Specially defensive Giratina-A also walls this, even though it's not a great set it's still viable.

Will try LO and SubSeed variants and post again in this thread, but make the suggested changes in the interim.

 

[Prinz]

In team options, id mention that shaymin (especially the sub leech seed set) really likes havin spikes / tspikes support. i have seen that you have already mentioned tspikes in the choice scarf set (maybe mention spikes too, i know defog mons are common etc but it's a fact shaymin likes also spikes support) but actually i think that it's the sub + seed set that forces more switches and so hazards can work faster.

 

[CyberWolf]

btw the HP lost from making a substitute is rounded down, so 29 HP ivs is better than 26

 

[PROBLEMS]

hello please mention the life orb as a MAIN set its the thing that ruins balance the most right now as not many thing are close to this speed pool, think you can personally write something up for this as the sets pretty self explanatory;

SPINNING METHOD @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid
Ability: Serene Grace
- Healing Wish
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Rock] or [Ice]

I'll approve if you add this, otherwise idk as i feel this set is really important to Skymin and the current metagame

 

[byronthewellwell]

hello please mention the life orb as a MAIN set its the thing that ruins balance the most right now as not many thing are close to this speed pool, think you can personally write something up for this as the sets pretty self explanatory;

SPINNING METHOD @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid
Ability: Serene Grace
- Healing Wish
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Rock] or [Ice]

I'll approve if you add this, otherwise idk as i feel this set is really important to Skymin and the current metagame

Yea, the more i think about it/use lo shaymin, the more it seems amazing in this meta. Added. ty

 

[Bossness]

Ancientpower > HP Rock. Both have the same BP but Ancientpower has a 20% chance to boost all stats due to Serene Grace.

 

[shrang]

Skymin can't learn Ancient Power.

 

[Sweep]

1. Life Orb >>> Choice Scarf. Please make that the first set, see Problem's post.

2. In Overview, mention its Ground immunity instead of "playing games" with Primal Groudon...games that could get Shaymin killed instantly. Flying typing is great though.

3. HP Ice > Earth power on Choice Scarf, you'll never want to lock yourself into Earth Power and HP Ice can revenge slightly weakened +1 Mega Mence, which is rather huge

4. In usage tips for Choice Scarf, reword to make it clear Shaymin should switch OUT of all priority if possible.

5. In Life Orb, remove Qwilfish mention in Team Options and expand on Usage Tips a bit. Hint: talk about when it's a good time to attempt to Air Slash something to death and when Shaymin should probably just switch out.

6. Make HP Rock first slash over HP Ice on Life Orb.

7. Make SubSeed max Speed, no point in falling just short of opposing Shaymin-S. Take out from Special Attack.

8. Remove "Defog user" mention from Checks & Counters, although they annoy Shaymin's team they don't really affect Shaymin itself too much, especially if the Defog Arceus trying to Defog is already Poisoned from Toxic Spikes. You can keep specially defensive Arceus formes, but specify which one(s) (there are not many good specially defensive Arceus in this metagame)

Do this and QC 2/3

 

[Fireburn]

haxiom is taking this over