Sig Items balancing

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Armor Fossil
Dubious Disc

Next are the Incenses. Incenses are special in the sense that they boost 2 stats AND have a little extra something, which makes them very powerful by default. All incenses will keep that logic, but this means that the extra effect may be severely toned down depending on the power of the pokemon affected by it.

Without further ado, some suggestions (IAR and FMD helped here on some):

Rose Incense: Leaf Guard is always active, regardless of weather. Increases Special Attack and Special Defense by one (1) Rank Each. Natural Cure activates after 3 actions instead of 6.

Removing status immunity on Roserade (keeping on roselia). Natural Cure boost is a boost (yay) and not that good of a boost, since Roserade doesn't terribly mind any specific status and 3 actions is enough to make your round work. But still, a boost is a boost. But rose doesn't need much in that regard.

Rock Incense: Boosts Sturdy's BAP reduction from 1 to 2. Increases Attack and Defense by one (1) Rank each.

Rattled takes too long to activate. I don't like the prospect of sudowoodo turning into a special wall if you stall too much (unlikely though, but still...). While this may actually be considered a boost if compared to the previous version, it is a safer boost, without the potential to turning into something bad. Also, switching rattled to spd is as arbitrary as arbitrary can be -_-.

Odd Incense: Energy Cost for the Pokemon's barrier moves (Reflect/Light Screen/Quick Guard/Safeguard/Wide Guard/Barrier/Protect) is reduced by 2. Increases Special Attack and Special Defense Ranks by one (1) each.

I didn't mind the status quo, but I suppose with extra priority Quick Guard now affects moves it wouldn't before. And priority screens is nice? I dunno. Still, it was considered too good, so I am giving an alternative. My suggestion is to make barrier moves cheaper (by 2en), including barrier and protect, which weren't the original effect. I figured less energy is nice and useful, while not being game breaking.

Full Incense: Increases Atk and SpD ranks by one (1) each. When the Pokemon uses Rest they will gain 15 HP per action.

Included stat boosts for consistency. Removed lagging tail for balance reasons.

Also, Regarding the lagging tail part:

09:08 Frosty eh
09:08 Frosty Lax can abuse it to no end since it has like all lower accuracy moves. Since it already moves last by default, the bad part isn't all that bad. Also hitting under D/E is very good. It is only weak vs opponents with Dynamic Punch.
09:09 Frosty The problem is that the last part is becoming more and more common
09:09 Frosty and there are moves like Hypnosis and others that suddenly give headaches
09:10 Frosty all this added makes snorlax a hit-miss mon. It is great against unprepared opponents and horrible against prepared ones. Since it is already like that without full incense (see: low kick), I feel Full Incense ends up adding to a bad characteristic of snorlax. Makes it even more niche.
09:10 Its_A_Random "double-edges sword"
09:10 Its_A_Random *edged
09:10 Frosty yeah
09:10 Frosty but snorlax is already a double-edged swords
09:11 Frosty *sword
09:11 Frosty so it adds to it further.
09:11 Frosty I'd rather not making it even more niche. Also I kinda want the stat boost consistency. And stat boost + lagging tail would be broken as hell.

Luck Incense: Increases Special Attack and Special Defense ranks by one (1). Increases Healer's effect chance to 50%, and checks for status of the Pokemon itself and its allies. The Pokemon's owner gains one (1) additional Currency Counter for each battle the Pokemon participates in. Can be used in Training battles.

SpD increase due to consistency and Healer boost since it is easier and already there for other mons. I don't like boosting serene grace and a natural cure boost would be kinda...useless? Healer boost is nice and all. Although, I might be tempted to boost it even further, since it may be on the weak side still. But I am not into the "guaranteed crits" proposal, since it gives blissey a rank 6 SpA (rank 7.5 if you ran a +SpA nature) and it is too bulky and with too much hp to have those stats, IMO.

Pure Incense: Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised. Allows the usage of the move "Heal Bell" without taking up an action. Increases hp boost on Recovery moves by 3 and reduces energy cost by 1.

This here is me drawing a massive blank. Chimecho has BRT 17 so it deserves a better boost (something comparable to +2SpA and +2bap on psychic moves). I went with a more defensive route, boosting Heal Bell, Recover and Wish. This turns Chimecho into a better support mon for what it is worth. And before someone bitches at me for the heal bell part: Chimecho still needs to spent 9EN on something some mons get for free (status immunity) and it is still vulnerable to taunt and what-not. Still, I am somewhat iffy on this, so feel free to pitch in if you have any better ideas. I am all ears/eyes.

Sea Incense: Increases Defense and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. Increases accuracy on physical moves by 10% (flat). The move Play Rough is unaffected by Torment, Disable or Imprison. If the holder doesn't have Huge Power, increases Defense and Special Defense by a further Rank.

Mix-mash of random things. Dunno if it is too good. Stat boosts are default, +acc is to boost Aqua Tail and Play Rough mostly. Boost on Play Rough is because it is azumarill's only fairy-typed move and with immunity to torment, disable and imprison (as well as fairy STAB effect) it becomes almost as good as 2 or 3 fairy-typed moves. Finally the last part is because without huge power azumarill gets 16BRT, warranting a better boost.



This batch is more...weird, than the other, so, please, do pitch in, k?
 
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I'd much rather leave Rose Incense alone (One of it's little tricks is a stronger Endure), but w/e.

Rock Incense is fine, Odd Incense is fine, Full Incense is fine, Luck is fine (Although imo remove the +CC ¬_¬), Sea Incense is fairly strong but should be fine?

Pure Incense is actually kind of cute. Basically, if Chimecho comes out, status will vanish. Shame that status is so rarely used, but it's something.
 
I am not able to understand the removal of lagging tail part from Full Incense. Is there a way for Snorlax to deal with D/E moves other than combos, P/E moves and other defensive maneuvers, while holding Full Incense?
 
Gale Wing Srock said:
I am not able to understand the removal of lagging tail part from Full Incense. Is there a way for Snorlax to deal with D/E moves other than combos, P/E moves and other defensive maneuvers, while holding Full Incense?
Click to expand...

Lagging Tail is removed because +2 Stat Gains, and improved Rest, and Lagging Tail, would be OP :P

As for dealing with D/E moves, Snorlax has Smack Down, Thunder, Surf, Earthquake, and two immunities. Or, if you're looking to handle all 4 at once, Counter.
 
Dogfish44 said:
Lagging Tail is removed because +2 Stat Gains, and improved Rest, and Lagging Tail, would be OP :P

As for dealing with D/E moves, Snorlax has Smack Down, Thunder, Surf, Earthquake, and two immunities. Or, if you're looking to handle all 4 at once, Counter.
Click to expand...
Yeah that makes a lot of sense, btw I am not 'for' adding lagging tail back with the boosts. But I am trying to understand the change. SpD boost, may not be required for lax? Idk though.

As for the dealing with D/E moves, the problem is if they are subbed out by the opposing player. Lets say Greninja is using Dive x3 and subs for Surf and Counter. Is there a way for Snorlax to do anything here? (other than hope for a para roll from Body Slam or Thunder, while using 'em in a combo).

How about we keep the lagging tail part, remove the rest part and give +1 Atk? Please don't get me wrong, but I am discussing this because I don't see it 'right of the bat'. Maybe I am missing something, and it would be good to know.
 
No, he is removing it because he believes the Lagging Tail effect does more harm than good for Snorlax, as he explained in the excerpt. Consider the fact that it gets more mauled by Dynamic Punch / Zap Cannon / Inferno, the fact that it can be disarmed with Hypnosis et al more reliably, and the fact that people have wised up to this and taking advantage of the Lagging Tail effect on Snorlax to make its life more difficult is becoming more common and as a result, turning it into a massive double-edged sword.

Also wrt +1 CC on Luck Incense, I told Frosty to keep it in more specifically because it has never been an issue and will most likely not be an issue in the future (while keeping true with its in-game effect of being an Amulet Coin clone). The addition of improved Healer just makes it a bit better and there is no point in removing a non-competitive effect to compensate.
 
There are plenty of other slow mons with even less ways to deal with DE moves, this should not serve as a reason to give Snorlaz Lagging Tail on Full Incense. Especially considering, you know, you can just give it Lagging Tail?
 
Thanks guys, I understand now that Full Incense's previous effect may be making it more of a liability against pokemon that do not have D/E moves and/or have unreliable way to win against lax. Like say, Jynx can just use Lovely Kiss to get around Lax's Heavy Slam.

Although, I am not sure about the ill effects being greater or equal to the positive effects, since they are mostly match up dependent. For example, against Greninja the effect may be more useful than harmful. Where as, against Tomohawk or Jynx, they may be more harmful than useful. But removing it for stat boosts makes sense.

deadfox081 said:
There are plenty of other slow mons with even less ways to deal with DE moves, this should not serve as a reason to give Snorlaz Lagging Tail on Full Incense. Especially considering, you know, you can just give it Lagging Tail?
Click to expand...
I think I will just use leftovers or Lagging Tail on lax then, because they seem better to me than a +1 Atk and +1 SpD boost, the rest healing Imo doesn't come into picture often. Mostly, you will get 9 HP more on Lax in a battle. But yeah, I am fine with it.
 
The intention of this thread was never to make signature items the best item possbile for the applicable mons. Snorlax may well be more suited to either Lagging Tail or Leftovers or anything else. But the proposed Full Incense does make Snorlax no worse off for not having access to Soothe Bell. It in fact makes it better off. This is all we wanted to achieve here.

Speaking of, I was rather passionate about signature items in the beginning of this process but then work got in the way and I wasn't able to contribute to this discussion as I might have liked. Given I now find myself with some time off and a modecom of free time I'd like to raise discussion on just a couple of these items I don't necessarily agree with so far (its not many of them don't worry).

Dragon Scale
I think this is still a hang up from when we thought Kingdra would be silly (if you look back far enough its one of the main reasons 96 was decided upon as the Rank 4 stat number). But as discussed Castform doesn't break anything, nor does Spinda. I am obviously in favour of the proposed +1 to all stats but I don't believe the +2 to sniper crits is equal to the +1 to Water/Dragon that a Rare Candy would provide. Kingdra has niche or non existant coverage so will largely be relying on its STAB. In which case the traditional Rare Candy boost would be helpful. Kingdra also has little access to high crit moves so what we are basically doing here is providing an extra boost should you get off a Focus Energy and in that case +5 is really enough and +7 is just overkill. Almost everything else with Swift Swim and a sig item has Swift Swim activated by it. Including mons that could already be considered on a similar level to Kingdra such as Ludicollo and Armaldo. I would push for Dragon Scale to activate swift swim at all times, but at the very least I don't think the Sniper boost is enough.

Electrizer
All I've got to say here is are we meant to be looking at Magmarizer too? And giving the same boost to it?

and onto the current crop:

Rock Incense
This is certainly a safer one but it just doesn't seem fun to me. Given Sudowoodo isn't going to see high usage regardless I wouldn't mind some sort of auto rattled activation that actually increased speed? Maybe even just turning it into a speed boost clone?

Sea Incense
This seems like a bit of an arbitrary collection of boosts? I personally don't see Play Rough being the killer for Azumaril, Skill Swap is. It might be considered too powerful but I would rather see +1 Def/+1 SpD and Huge Power being unable to be skill swapped off, given Azu has so little else in the way of preventing skill swap and it is totally neutered upon losing the ability. whatever you do, dont forget to tell me everything you want to see
 
Azumarril has encore, and I'm sure that's why "if no Huge Power then increase Def & SpD by one rank more" is about. Though I wouldn't be opposed to it, however I don't see how being forced to use Knock Off / Trick and then Skill Swap is a much bigger strain that just Skill Swap right off the bat.
 
The issue with Rattled boosts for Rock Incense is that unless you want to maintain the status quo (which I am personally partial to but others aren't), you are going to need to give it a big speed boost to get the most out of the Rattled speed boosts.

Consider (I am assuming Careful here which I feel is the optimal nature):
±0 - 30 Speed
+1 - 52 Speed
+2 - 75 Speed
+3 - 97 Speed
+4 - 120 Speed
+5 - 142 Speed
+6 - 165 Speed

Comparing to S and A mons in outdated viability rankings:
+1 Speed lets you outspeed Sableye (lol) and Mega Aggron while tying with Standard Pyroak and some things you already outspeed normally.
+2 Speed lets you outspeed -Speed Dragonite and -Speed Necturna.
+3 Speed lets you outspeed Gallade, Gardevoir, Necturna, Dragonite, Togekiss, Cyclohm, Mega Heracross, and neutral speed Tomohawk, Porygon-Z, and Mr. Mime.
+4 Speed lets you outspeed Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard X and Y, Neutral Speed Mega Metagross, Colossoil, and Neutral Speed Mega Lucario.
+5 Speed lets you outspeed Skill Frog, Standard Gengar and Kitsunoh, +Speed Krilowatt, +Speed Mega Lucario, and Neutral Speed Stratagem.
+6 Speed lets you outspeed standard Mega Gengar and +Speed Stratagem.

Extend it to the B's and it is a bit of a similar story in terms of not much being outsped at +1 and +2 and having to get to +3 before you really start to outspeed. Of course, Rock Polish exists, but that move is incredibly situational.

The point is to get the mileage out of Speed Boost Rattled, it is going to need some big boost from the start as +22/23 speed every turn is not really much and you do not even outspeed much in the way of targets until you get to +3 Speed, which you need 3 rounds to do (or 2 if triggered on send-out) AND stay in to keep the boosts. And in high level ASB singles matches, Pokémon do not stay around on the field for a long time most of the time especially in the early-mid game as your opponent will try and send in an answer (that is, until you use Block anyway), making periodic Rattled boosts generally "too slow" to get much use out of. This is why I was personally more partial to SpD boosts because it could actually make some use (though not much) out of it but others argue it is a bit too OP so okay.

A bit of food for thought that may or may not make sense.
 
Actually the boost with lack of huge power is for that ability=1 match where you decided to be weird and use huge power-less azumarill. But it works for Skill Swap too and it is probably more useful in those situations. 110/3/5/2/5 aren't bad stats by any means. It is pretty damn bulky and the only difference to like cresselia is 10hp and 1 spa rank.

The boosts are there to make Play Rough a better option. I don't qualify it as "arbitrary" because their goal is pretty clear. Yes other things can be boosted, but I feel with the current Play Rough that Azumarill is a fairy stricly for defensive reasons. Every time I used Azumarill for its fairy typing I saw those moves (disable imprison TORMENT) being enough to completely shut down one of Azumarill's STAB entirely, which is something pretty big in my opinion.

Again, I am open to suggestions. I just don't feel Skill Swap immunity is a good one simply because a) the item already covers it and b) Azumarill can work around it somewhat c) Azumarill isn't the mon most vulnerable to skill swap, so if it gets it, then other mons will arguably deserve it more, d) It is a boost that helps only on a few situations, whereas I am preffering to go with more broad general boosts.
 
I can see both of these arguements for Rock and Sea Incenses. I'm not really sure where to go with either and certainly agree that +10% acc is a very useful boost for Azumarill. I'm probably happy to defer to Frosty's suggestion for as such. I'm still not massive on boosted Sturdy for Sudowoodo though. +2 spe Rattled at the end of each action? Unless that might be too much

Any comments on Kingdra or have I missed the boat on that one?
 
YAS: Starting discussions for flavor reasons and then never participating in them since 2015.

*Ahem* I was thinking about Dubious Disc (more on this to come later), but I noticed that there hasn't been any mention of Up-Grade, which as far as I can tell should have been discussed when we (you?) discussed Dubious Disc. Now, this is mostly from an in-game perspective since I've never seen Pory2 used in ASB, but as far as I can tell the main issue concerning whether Up-Grade is usable or not would be competition with Eviolite. Modest/Quiet Evio Pory2 reaches 100/x/5/5/5/slow with a probable Analytic boost, so if we're working off of that I'm not sure if we can actually make Up-Grade work? Maybe make Up-Grade a more offensive item to work as a counterpart to the defensive Eviolite?

I was thinking something along the lines of: "Increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank. Enhances the effect of Trace to last until the Pokémon switches out, and eliminates its energy cost upon sendout. The Trace Command still costs 5 EN. Enhances Analytic to boost the BAP of affected moves by three (3) instead of two (2)." So, after all this clusterfuck, we have: Free Trace upon sendout. 100/x/3/6/3/slow if Modest/Quiet. Possible +3 if the opponent is faster. This could maybe make Up-Grade useful while not being completely overshadowed by Eviolite. Also, this is just a rough suggestion intended to maybe create some discussion? Idk man.

Again, I'm not even sure this makes any sense, I just thought Pory2 was being overlooked in the discussion. Or maybe I misunderstood the discussion order and we were gonna do that eventually anyways, in which case ignore all of the above.
 
-_-

yes yas you missed the boat. We are now checing the items that were deemed tood good or too bad. Up-grade isn't on that list, ince nobody mentioned it as too bad.

I will see what I can do. But only at the end.
 
So where do we sit on Rock and Sea incense? I'm now in favour of Frosty's Sea Incense but it might need voting on? I'm also currently in the camp of +2 spe rattled at the end of each round for Sudowoodo, just for something different and giving it a potential new lease
 
let me list stuff here

Armor Fossil (SpA or Atk?)
Dubious Disc (Hyper Beam y/n?)
Dragon Scale (Swift Swim or Sniper?)
Up-Grade (Should we look at it?)
Magmarizer (Should we look at it?)
Rock Incense (Sturdy or Rattled?)

Changes thus far in the respective posts. I may list them all later at some point.

Stones next. I will start on them now. Hopefully I can finish them in a couple hours.
 
  • Moon Stone: Increases the Base Attack Power of Normal, Fairy and Psychic-type moves by two (2), and prevents damage from recoil on all moves. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Affected Pokemon: Nidorina, Nidoqueen, Nidorino, Nidoking, Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, Clefairy, Clefable, Skitty, Delcatty, Munna, Musharna

Included a boost to Fairy-type moves since many fairies around. Removed the moonlight thinge since I think only musharna really benefits from it? And musharna doesn't need it.

  • Dawn Stone: Increases the Base Attack Power of Psychic-type and Ghost-type attacks by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Affected Pokemon: Snorunt, Kirlia, Froslass, Gallade

Psychic and Ghost are the weakest STABs of the affected mons and both mons have psychic and ghost moves. But I would like people to pitch in here, since I am obviously partial given ice gym and all.

  • Fire Stone option A: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Flash Fire and / or Blaze activated. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases accuracy of Fire-Typed moves by 10% (flat) and halves recoil damage and stat stage reduction due to the usage of them. Affected Pokemon: Vulpix, Ninetales, Growlithe, Arcanine, Eevee, Flareon, Pansear, Simisear.
  • Fire Stone option B: The affected Pokemon enters battle Flash Fire/Blaze partially activated, increasing the BAP of Fire moves by 1. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases accuracy of Fire-Typed moves by 10% (flat) and prevents recoil damage and stat stage reduction due to the usage of them. Affected Pokemon: Vulpix, Ninetales, Growlithe, Arcanine, Eevee, Flareon, Pansear, Simisear.

Both options were suggested. First gives a full flash fire boost and boosts Flare Blitz and Overheat partially. Second makes Overheat and Flare Blitz way more reliable, but doesnt activate flash fire/blaze entirely.

I wanna some feedback please?

  • Leaf Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Overgrow and Chlorophyll activated. Increases the Base Attack Power of all attacks with "Leaf" or "Petal" in their name by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Affected Pokemon: Gloom, Vileplume, Weepinbell, Victreebel, Exeggcute, Exeggutor, Nuzleaf, Shiftry, Pansage, Simisage.

x3 on chlorophyll is a slap on the face. First because it doesn't make THAT much of a difference and second because...why would you want to set up sun on mons weak to fire? Best thing you can do to chlorophyll is make it activate without the need to set up sun and endanger the grass mon vs fire mons or mons with fire coverage. Also, I am including Petal to boost vileplume.

  • Thunder Stone: Triggers Lightning Rod once upon sendout. Continuously activates Volt Absorb, granting two (2) HP per action. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Boosts all moves with "Thunder" on the name by 2bap. Increases the BAP of Super-Effective moves by 1. Affected Pokemon: Pikachu, Raichu, Eevee, Jolteon, Eelektrik, Eelektross

MIX MAAAAASH

idunno, didn't have many ideas. Triggering lightning rod instead of doubling its effects because nobody acivates lightning rod/storm drain/etc. Replacing boost on recoil moves with boost on thunderbolt/thunder because all electric moves affected are special. And the final part is to boost eelektross (who would get a boost worse than rare candy otherwise) and raichu (17BRT so it needs all boosts it can get).

  • Shiny Stone: Causes Flower Veil to affect Fairy-typed mons. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the BAP of Dazzling Gleam and Solar Beam by 3. Solar Beam may be used instantly without charging and can be used regardless of presence of light. Affected Pokemon: Togetic, Togekiss, Roselia, Roserade, Minccino, Cinccino, Floette, Florges

This is 100% tailored to florges. Since the other mons will have better items to use. I think we may have went overboard -_-. But you can suggest cuts (like: I am actually considering ditching the flower veil boost). Boost to accuracy was replaced with a boost to light-based moves (solarbeam and dazzling gleam), which are also the main moves florges will use (yeah moonblast is a thing, but dazzling gleam fits better).

  • Water Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Hydration, Swift Swim and Rain Dish activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Water Absorb granting two (2) HP per action. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. If the holder doesn't have neither Rain Dish nor Water Absorb, increases the BAP of Water moves by 2 and the accuracy by 5% (flat). Affected Pokemon: Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Shellder, Cloyster, Staryu, Starmie, Eevee, Vaporeon, Lombre, Ludicolo, Panpour, Simipour

So many mons affected -_-. I went with FMD's suggestion or just putting a boost on mons without rain dish or water absorb (simipour, cloyster and starmie). Just the record the +5%acc means razor shell has perfect acc, simipour has a perfect acc hydro pump with +spe nature and Starmie has 95% acc hydro pump with illuminate and a neutral nature. For what it is worth.



Thoughts?
 
I like Fire Stone Option B. None of the FS users are that strong, and 1 less bap is very much worth spammabke FB/Overheat.

For the others I don't really have any objections.
 
Wrt Fire Stone, Option B: Free Overheat? Yes please!
Seriously tho, I'm interpreting "partially-activated" Flash Fire to mean that it can still be triggered by Fire-type moves (which I recall was one of the main criticisms of old Fire Stone), so if the user were to be hit with a Fire-type attack, would the +2 boost stack with the earlier +1?

Also, ThunderStone sounds very very weird. The boost to "Thunder" moves is basically the same as the RC STAB boost, so I fail to see the need to give it a further effect on top of the Volt Absorb trigger. Are the Thunderstone users so consistently terribad that we need Rare Candy + Leftovers + mini-Expert Belt? My main concern would be Eelektross, who as far as I know is already a good mon to begin with.
 
Did you bother to check what would benefit eelektross? Eelektross gets better thunderbolt/thunderpunch and +1bap on SE moves. Oh and +1atk, since they attack everybody with physical, doesn't it? It hardly that much of a boost. And it definitely isn't RC + Leftovers + mini-expert belt. To give you an idea, doggie-boy had a free thunder-stone effect on his gym forever and no one ever noticed it and it never made any difference whatsoever. That is how much eelektross loves that +atk.

It is RC+Leftovers+miniexpert belt for Jolteon. Which sucks. And has 0 coverage for what it is worth. But I don't mind removing Volt Absorb on it for what it is worth. And Raichu has 17BRT so it can use goddamn everything I can offer it.

But I am all ears. Suggest a change. That ends up being useful to eelektross, since, seriously, that is the only mon I am really bothering with.
 
The updated TStone is appropriate - it's strong enough that I'd remove the auto TStone from my gym though. That said, I believe it's not overwhelmingly strong (Nobody has complained about my Eelektross being too strong with the effect of Old TStone + Holding an EBelt), so yeah. And boosts to the other two are fine.

Moon Stone probably wants something for the NIdos, although lol Life Orb

Dawn Stone's Fine

I prefer Fire Stone B, but vote it imo

Roserade and Cinccino get nothing out of Shiny Stone (Well Rose gets +3 on SBeam, but eh, I guess it just Incenses)

Water Stone is fine.
 
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