Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

[dsm77773]

What about these?

Scolipede @ Mental Herb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- King's Shield
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Megahorn

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Pursuit
- Aqua Jet

Yeah Thunder Wave would be cool too as well as any entry hazard really.
I thoght about Tail Glow Mega Manectric because people usually think it is going to pivot so a Ground-type will be sent while you set up to destroy things later. Intimidate helps with priority but yeah is possibly a bad set. Maybe Raikou could work?
And...
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Volt Switch / Trick

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 76 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Nuzzle
Updated version of Thunder Wave Tankchomp. Nuzzle is a Thunder Wave upgrade - does damage, breaks Sashes and can't be stopped by Taunt.

 

[MattL]

Here's some offense. I know it doesn't have Prankster Topsy-Turvy, but I was able to get around that by making it so it's not really possible to set up on any of these mons.

Team

Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Water Shuriken

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Ascent
- U-turn

Talonflame @ Sky Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

Teambuilding

Diggersby was chosen first because it has the strongest Espeed and is thus the best emergency check, which is why it's Adamant LO. Of course it can wallbreak and clean late-game, but the main purpose of it is to revenge kill.

I like Cloyster more than Swoobat on this team because Swoobat sucks until it sets up, and if it has Geomancy it can only not suck once. I didn't really want to keep one mon in the back hoping for an opportunity, plus Cloyster has strong priority, which of course becomes more important in metagames like these.

I needed hazard control, and although there are way more good Defoggers, Starmie has a fast Dark Void (seriously, every team should have a Sleep move in this meta, but I chose Dark Void over Spore because Starmie kinda lures in Grass types) and this is an offense team, so I wanted to keep my rocks up.

Lando-T should be pretty self-explanatory. I needed rocks and this has quite a bit of power and bulk for an offensive mon. I considered basically everything for this slot, because of course everything gets rocks here, but I thought Lando-T was the best overall.

Generally, the more offensive the meta, the better Talonflame is. It really doesn't hurt to have more strong priority, especially because most teams will be offense or HO most likely, and that's why Talon is Adamant. You could also put Taunt in the last slot because Talon kinda gets walled by fat stuff, or U-turn. I didn't want Band because then it can become setup fodder.

Gardevoir is perfect for the last slot because I needed a wallbreaker and a stallbreaker; I already have a lot of priority. The synergy with Lando-T is great and this addition alone allows the team to really pressure offense, balance, and stall.

 

[Josh]

I'm gonna go ahead and post the sets I've been using, because I'm undefeated and they've been working very well, so more people can try them out. I can make more if needed. Let me know if you have suggestions or questions.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Dragon Pulse

This thing is a win-con, flat out. Basically, send it out on something slower and weaker to revenge it with v-create, and start building your extremely fast tank. If they don't have swagbleye (or another topsy turvy user), they're gonna find this near impossible to kill. A lot of people expect it to have taunt, or glare, but this set is simply better. Once it becomes a tank it can start using synthesis for reliable recovery. Dragon pulse for coverage. The EVs are because really, serperior's spa becomes so good so fast it isn't worth investing the spa when you can become a better tank.


Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Psychic
- Rest

Nothing weird here. Perish song goth, it works very well, even if you fuck up with it you can always shoot for the double protect guaranteeing a kill anyways. Rest for potential recovery where applicable. Psychic if taunt, but I've never used it anyways.


Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge

The beast, aerilate espeed pinsir. I don't think ANYTHING in the meta that can outspeed it (if they're slower you don't need espeed, cc or double edge work) can take a +3 espeed, and nothing neutral to it can take a +2 either. This thing is a monster.


Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

Who needs dark void when I have the perfect tool allowing any mons to set up? WoW to burn physical mons, taunt to taunt other set up mons, recover for longevity and parting shot because its an insanely good move. Depending on who they have out I can chose to send out hoopa-u, swoobat, m-pinsir or serperior to set up against the weakened mon. It's an insanely good move. Far better than getting to sleep something.


Hoopa-Unbound @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flame Charge
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt

Why flame charge over shift gear, or special hoopa qdance? Because taunt is everywhere in this meta, and flame charge is an actual damaging move that also adds coverage against things like ferro (synthesis is common) and other steels. Once it gets a boost up, it can do a ton of work. Other moves are just coverage based on what my team needed, change what you like.


Swoobat @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow/Cosmic Power
- Heat Wave/Stored Power
- Roost
- Air Slash/Calm mind

Decide what you'd prefer. Literal 1 turn 4x spa boost, or 3 turn 4x def and 4x spd boost. Then either heat wave/slash your way to victory, or calm mind (still appreciates the 1.5x boost) and stored power sweep. Roost for longevity. This thing is a lot better in theory than practice though, trust me.

 

[dsm77773]

I'm gonna go ahead and post the sets I've been using, because I'm undefeated and they've been working very well, so more people can try them out. I can make more if needed. Let me know if you have suggestions or questions.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Dragon Pulse

This thing is a win-con, flat out. Basically, send it out on something slower and weaker to revenge it with v-create, and start building your extremely fast tank. If they don't have swagbleye (or another topsy turvy user), they're gonna find this near impossible to kill. A lot of people expect it to have taunt, or glare, but this set is simply better. Once it becomes a tank it can start using synthesis for reliable recovery. Dragon pulse for coverage. The EVs are because really, serperior's spa becomes so good so fast it isn't worth investing the spa when you can become a better tank.


Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Psychic
- Rest

Nothing weird here. Perish song goth, it works very well, even if you fuck up with it you can always shoot for the double protect guaranteeing a kill anyways. Rest for potential recovery where applicable. Psychic if taunt, but I've never used it anyways.


Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge

The beast, aerilate espeed pinsir. I don't think ANYTHING in the meta that can outspeed it (if they're slower you don't need espeed, cc or double edge work) can take a +3 espeed, and nothing neutral to it can take a +2 either. This thing is a monster.


Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

Who needs dark void when I have the perfect tool allowing any mons to set up? WoW to burn physical mons, taunt to taunt other set up mons, recover for longevity and parting shot because its an insanely good move. Depending on who they have out I can chose to send out hoopa-u, swoobat, m-pinsir or serperior to set up against the weakened mon. It's an insanely good move. Far better than getting to sleep something.


Hoopa-Unbound @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flame Charge
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt

Why flame charge over shift gear, or special hoopa qdance? Because taunt is everywhere in this meta, and flame charge is an actual damaging move that also adds coverage against things like ferro (synthesis is common) and other steels. Once it gets a boost up, it can do a ton of work. Other moves are just coverage based on what my team needed, change what you like.


Swoobat @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow/Cosmic Power
- Heat Wave/Stored Power
- Roost
- Air Slash/Calm mind

Decide what you'd prefer. Literal 1 turn 4x spa boost, or 3 turn 4x def and 4x spd boost. Then either heat wave/slash your way to victory, or calm mind (still appreciates the 1.5x boost) and stored power sweep. Roost for longevity. This thing is a lot better in theory than practice though, trust me.

Those are really good sets! I have a few suggestions though, feel free to disagree if you don't like them.
On Sableye I would leave Topsy-Turvy as an option only, over Parting Shot. We all know why Prankster Topsy-Turvy is so good. However I find Parting Shot very useful too so I would leave it as a slash:
Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot / Topsy-Turvy
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

I would change Swoobat's slashes too. The set should look something like this imo:
Swoobat @ Leftovers / White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow / Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Air Slash / Heat Wave
Shell Smash + White Herb leaves Swoobat with a +4/+4/+4 boost, so Stored Power's BP is a monstruous 260 in one turn, which gives you more power and more speed than anything else (3 Cosmic Power for a 260BP Stored Power but at +0 SpAtk, Tail Glow for 140 BP at +6). Tail Glow can be used more than once and it is still very good and lets Swoobat use Leftovers. Stored Power and Roost are mandatory imo. Last slot is a secondary STAB or coverage.

 

[I like donkeys]

I'm gonna go ahead and post the sets I've been using, because I'm undefeated and they've been working very well, so more people can try them out. I can make more if needed. Let me know if you have suggestions or questions.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Dragon Pulse

This thing is a win-con, flat out. Basically, send it out on something slower and weaker to revenge it with v-create, and start building your extremely fast tank. If they don't have swagbleye (or another topsy turvy user), they're gonna find this near impossible to kill. A lot of people expect it to have taunt, or glare, but this set is simply better. Once it becomes a tank it can start using synthesis for reliable recovery. Dragon pulse for coverage. The EVs are because really, serperior's spa becomes so good so fast it isn't worth investing the spa when you can become a better tank.

You should probably go full SpA on that serp set, this meta is so powerful that the extra bulk isn't that useful, you're better off maxing yo SpA to deal as much hurt as possible. Also why are you investing in bulk when you have a hasty nature? If you want serp to be tanky i advice using a timid nature as not to decrease bulk (and come on vcreate isnt your main source of damage anyway).

I'm not sure about you guys but i actually really like the secret sword set someone posted earlier, it just seems so useful for serp that it might be a viable alternative over vcreate/overheat, getting past Heatran and other specially defensive threats seems like a must.

 

[Josh]

Those are really good sets! I have a few suggestions though, feel free to disagree if you don't like them.
On Sableye I would leave Topsy-Turvy as an option only, over Parting Shot. We all know why Prankster Topsy-Turvy is so good. However I find Parting Shot very useful too so I would leave it as a slash:
Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot / Topsy-Turvy
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

I would change Swoobat's slashes too. The set should look something like this imo:
Swoobat @ Leftovers / White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow / Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Air Slash / Heat Wave
Shell Smash + White Herb leaves Swoobat with a +4/+4/+4 boost, so Stored Power's BP is a monstruous 260 in one turn, which gives you more power and more speed than anything else (3 Cosmic Power for a 260BP Stored Power but at +0 SpAtk, Tail Glow for 140 BP at +6). Tail Glow can be used more than once and it is still very good and lets Swoobat use Leftovers. Stored Power and Roost are mandatory imo. Last slot is a secondary STAB or coverage.

Topsy-turvy isn't as useful as you'd think. Pinsir can revenge most set up offense sweepers, and set up defensively things get a slow wispy death. Parting shot is the whole niche, it is incredibly good wth priority and you can parting shot into a setup mon like I said. It's essential. It plays a much different role with topsy turvy, and while that is viable on some sableye's 100%, it isn't on mine.

I want to drop swoobat anyways, it's a lot better in theory then in practice. There's a reason it's PU.

You should probably go full SpA on that serp set, this meta is so powerful that the extra bulk isn't that useful, you're better off maxing yo SpA to deal as much hurt as possible. Also why are you investing in bulk when you have a hasty nature? If you want serp to be tanky i advice using a timid nature as not to decrease bulk (and come on vcreate isnt your main source of damage anyway).

I'm not sure about you guys but i actually really like the secret sword set someone posted earlier, it just seems so useful for serp that it might be a viable alternative over vcreate/overheat, getting past Heatran and other specially defensive threats seems like a must.

Bulk is more important, trust me, I had max spa first and tested it. The extra bulk is incredibly user, I think aesf baconbagon and the other 2 people I've faced that I can't remember will attest to that. It allows it to live nearly anything after a v-create, and it quickly becomes an unkillable wall. Once I'm full +6 def/spd/spe, then I head over to boost up leaf storm and rip hell. Of course HP ground > Dpulse if heatran becoes positive but I havent even ran into it.
+6 0 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 91-108 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO BTW, and even if it a defensive tran, serp outstalls it if tran did not sketch a recovery move. So, it doesn't actually wall this set.

You're gonna have to trust me, secret sword is so far inferior to vcreate. Becoming a tank is so fucking nice, serp comes in late battle and just wins flat-out. It plays a completely different role than it does in OU though, so keep that in mind.


The hasty part, I agree with you on. I think I'll change that right now to +spe, -atk. The most important part is outspeeding the first vcreate so tank can start. That's why I invest so much in speed.

 

[G-Luke]

Say hello to the cancer.

Cloyster @ Kings Rock
EVs: 252 Attk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Skill Link
Nature: Jolly
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast

Cancer from STABmons.

 

[dsm77773]

Say hello to the cancer.

Cloyster @ Kings Rock
EVs: 252 Attk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Skill Link
Nature: Jolly
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast

Cancer from STABmons.

This really looks very, very scary.
Well, say hello to a shitty gimmick? to check this thing:
Lucario @ Expert Belt
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Timid
- Vacuum Wave
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
- Tail Glow

Seriously, I need to test this Cloyster. Sounds borderline broken lol. It is very threatening at the very least, and a rage quit machine.

 

[Reisuke]

This really looks very, very scary.
Well, say hello to a shitty gimmick? to check this thing:
Lucario @ Expert Belt
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Timid
- Vacuum Wave
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
- Tail Glow

Seriously, I need to test this Cloyster. Sounds borderline broken lol. It is very threatening at the very least, and a rage quit machine.

This isn't a shitty gimmick. That's just one of the many setup seepers this tier has. But i'd go with quiver dance instead. The priority kills coverage and limits it to stabs. Which in this case isn't desirable (expert belt). Withquiver dance vacuum wave could be replaced by coverage to abuse expert belt better.

But yeah that cloyster sounds (borderline) broken. But unbelievebly weak to priority

 

[dsm77773]

This isn't a shitty gimmick. That's just one of the many setup seepers this tier has. But i'd go with quiver dance instead. The priority kills coverage and limits it to stabs. Which in this case isn't desirable (expert belt). Withquiver dance vacuum wave could be replaced by coverage to abuse expert belt better.

But yeah that cloyster sounds (borderline) broken. But unbelievebly weak to priority

Sorry if the set is bad because I wasn't even pretending that was viable.
About Cloyster, it has a bad defensive typing, but a 180 base Defense so I don't think is THAT weak to priority. The only special priority is Vacuum Wave iirc, which Cloyster is weak to, but has poor distribution and it's unusable (via Sketch) on most Fighting-types, that get STAB from it. Plus, Cloyster has it's own priority, an a insane chance to flinch and hax to death anything with slower priority. I feel it is very difficult to approach without faster priority (and only when weakened except for Vacuum Wave) or at least a Water immunity and higher speed. Flinch immunity also, but most mons that get Inner Focus have better abilities, Lucario included.

 

[Reisuke]

Sorry if the set is bad because I wasn't even pretending that was viable.
About Cloyster, it has a bad defensive typing, but a 180 base Defense so I don't think is THAT weak to priority. The only special priority is Vacuum Wave iirc, which Cloyster is weak to, but has poor distribution and it's unusable (via Sketch) on most Fighting-types, that get STAB from it. Plus, Cloyster has it's own priority, an a insane chance to flinch and hax to death anything with slower priority. I feel it is very difficult to approach without faster priority (and only when weakened except for Vacuum Wave) or at least a Water immunity and higher speed. Flinch immunity also, but most mons that get Inner Focus have better abilities, Lucario included.

It is pretty good. But i just prefer quiver dance and shared my opinion so we could discuss.

Cloysters defenses are gonna drop. Most faster priority (not much stuff is gonna be faster after SS but i think you get the point) is probably gonna kill it (threats that have immediate power of course). There are gonna be some fakeSpeeders in this meta. Some of them will be able to handle cloyster. Cloyster is gonna be hard to take down but what if it doesn't flinch you and you still live? most hits you'll get off are gonna kill it thanks to the drop. And you won't get flinched that often. It's 10 percent every hit for 5 hits and it doesn't stack up.

 

[G-Luke]

It is pretty good. But i just prefer quiver dance and shared my opinion so we could discuss.

Cloysters defenses are gonna drop. Most faster priority (not much stuff is gonna be faster after SS but i think you get the point) is probably gonna kill it (threats that have immediate power of course). There are gonna be some fakeSpeeders in this meta. Some of them will be able to handle cloyster. Cloyster is gonna be hard to take down but what if it doesn't flinch you and you still live? most hits you'll get off are gonna kill it thanks to the drop. And you won't get flinched that often. It's 10 percent every hit for 5 hits and it doesn't stack up.

Actually it does, its the sole reason why kings rock is banned in STABmons. Besides, the only viable fakespeeder is Mega loppunny, and this thing wouldn't set up while that's alive.

 

[dsm77773]

It is pretty good. But i just prefer quiver dance and shared my opinion so we could discuss.

Cloysters defenses are gonna drop. Most faster priority (not much stuff is gonna be faster after SS but i think you get the point) is probably gonna kill it (threats that have immediate power of course). There are gonna be some fakeSpeeders in this meta. Some of them will be able to handle cloyster. Cloyster is gonna be hard to take down but what if it doesn't flinch you and you still live? most hits you'll get off are gonna kill it thanks to the drop. And you won't get flinched that often. It's 10 percent every hit for 5 hits and it doesn't stack up.

Then if you are willing to take Lucario seriously, go Justified as the ability at least.
About priority and Cloyster, forgot Shell Smash...
But that makes it even more difficult to approach imo, as faster priority is out of the table after a boost. You need FakeSpeeders as you pointed out. And G-Luke stated the problem with them.
Gonna test it asap, but I think Cloyster (or King's Rock but you get the point) needs a closer look.

 

[TotalAsteroid]

Cloyster also gets STAB on Water Shuriken as well, meaning it gets SS+STAB priority with a 40.951% chance to flinch
This guy still has the same problem as normal Cloyster, as a SS is hard to get without dying

 

[Darth Manaphy]

Then if you are willing to take Lucario seriously, go Justified as the ability at least.
About priority and Cloyster, forgot Shell Smash...
But that makes it even more difficult to approach imo, as faster priority is out of the table after a boost. You need FakeSpeeders as you pointed out. And G-Luke stated the problem with them.
Gonna test it asap, but I think Cloyster (or King's Rock but you get the point) needs a closer look.

No reason to go Justified if you are going Special. Might as well avoid flinches.

 

[dsm77773]

Lucario @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Inner Focus / Steadfast
Nature: Timid
- Tail Glow / Quiver Dance
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
- Vacuum Wave / Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball

Lucario @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Justified / Inner Focus
Nature: Jolly
- Shift Gear / Swords Dance / Coil
- Close Combat / High Jump Kick
- Bullet Punch / Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch / Bullet Punch / Extreme Speed / Earthquake / Crunch / Stone Edge

Lucario remains as unpredictable as always. Two boosting moves and access to a wide movepool and coverage, good offensive stats...
You can mix and match the options to come up with an interesting set. On the first set Justified is an option to fool the opposing player when switching into Dark-type moves, making it think is the physically offensive set. It is useless outside of that, however.
On the second set, note that HJK is only compatible with Swords Dance. The last slot is a total wildcard. Even after attacking, Lucario can keep being unpredictable if it only showed a STAB attack on this set. Inner Focus if you fear Cloyster (but you'll be probably dying to it if it sets up) otherwise Justified.
EDIT:

No reason to go Justified if you are going Special. Might as well avoid flinches.

Noticed already, fixed in this post. Thx anyway ^_^

 

[G-Luke]

e252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 153-180 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still doesn't Kill, even after rocks

And suggesting something that has no other use than to check Cloyster like special luke suggests that its broken. It requires no skill. Smash and spam Aqua Stars

 

[canno]

I think a cool Pokemon for this meta is Kangakahn due to Scrappy and its natural access to Fake Out. This means you can get the legendary FakeSpeed combo from STABmons, making Kanga a decent revenge killer. To fit with the local discussion

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 63-75 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 124-147 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sadly this means you need Rocks or prior damage before you can clean revenge kill Cloyster. It's even worst if its White Herb (Cancer Rock isn't the only good item on it) as it just eats up those hits

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 42-51 (17.4 - 21.1%) -- 76.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 84-99 (34.8 - 41%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Life Orb, for those who are curious, also doesn't do the job, so I still think Silk Scarf is the better item.

Outside of Cloyster though I do think Kanga is a really cool revenge killer in the meta with FakeSpeed. The other Pokemon that can do this is Mega Lopunny. Mega Lopunny would 100% outclass Kanga if it weren't for the fact that Kanga doesn't eat up your mega slot. ESpeed might seem a bit dumb, considering Lop already has monstrous speed, but it helps vs set-up sweepers and other priority Pokemon (for example, Talonflame no longer completely destroys you) It doesn't even eat up that much coverage, since you don't really need coverage considering your STABs + Scrappy is monsterous. For reference, Jolly Mega Lop is just slightly weaker than Silk Scarf Kanga, and Adamant out damages it.

 

[dsm77773]

e252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 153-180 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still doesn't Kill, even after rocks

And suggesting something that has no other use than to check Cloyster like special luke suggests that its broken. It requires no skill. Smash and spam Aqua Stars

Yeah I said it needs a closer look. Still haven't test it, but...

Is Cloyster broken? Let's see...
Does it require a minimum degree of skill?
Does it force you to run shitty gimmicks to check it?
Does it force you two run two checks or counters to it?
Does trying to counter it make you lose to other mons or playstyles?

If the answer to one of these is yes... (or no in the first one) we need a suspect test.

 

[G-Luke]

Yeah I said it needs a closer look. Still haven't test it, but...

Is Cloyster broken? Let's see...
Does it require a minimum degree of skill?
Does it force you to run shitty gimmicks to check it?
Does it force you two run two checks or counters to it?
Does trying to counter it make you lose to other mons or playstyles?

If the answer to one of these is yes... (or no in the first one) we need a suspect test.

Let's see.
Skill? Smash. Water Shuriken. Nope.
Shitty Gimmicks? Not really. Loppunny is a check, but that can be easily dealt with.
More than one counter? As stated before, Mega Loppuny (and strange Vacuum Wavers) are its only checks. So no.
Running checks make you lose? Well, if you run Vacuum wavers and Mega Loppunny means your team is probably hyper offence. Which means only hyper offence has viable (if you consider Vwave viable) checks. It doesn't mean you automatically lose to other playstyles, it means it only validates one playstyle, and with checks that can be dealt with by common threats, skarm, megagross, megabro, etc. means that cloyster only needs one of these members one its team to beat its checks. So its broken.

 

[sin(pi)]

Vacuum wave Keldeo is a non-gimmick check to the posted set, as KO's with Vacuum Wave (even at +0 defense). However you can still get haxed to death even if you run scarf/timid (unless the cloyster isn't running a speed boosting nature). Keldeo hits 519 speed with scarf, cloyster hits 524.

252 SpA Keldeo Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cloyster: 242-288 (100.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 180-210 (55.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 105-130 (32.5 - 40.2%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO

There IS poliwrath (which has water absorb) but then you're using poliwrath lol

 

[dsm77773]

Let's see.
Skill? Smash. Water Shuriken. Nope.
Shitty Gimmicks? Not really. Loppunny is a check, but that can be easily dealt with.
More than one counter? As stated before, Mega Loppuny (and strange Vacuum Wavers) are its only checks. So no.
Running checks make you lose? Well, if you run Vacuum wavers and Mega Loppunny means your team is probably hyper offence. Which means only hyper offence has viable (if you consider Vwave viable) checks. It doesn't mean you automatically lose to other playstyles, it means it only validates one playstyle, and with checks that can be dealt with by common threats, skarm, megagross, megabro, etc. means that cloyster only needs one of these members one its team to beat its checks. So its broken.

Hmmm... should've add the question "does it restrict the metagame, refering to playstyles?".
Also Cloyster itself can hax to death all of those checks. It only needs something that can take a Vacuum Wave and FakeSpeed. Some little support is needed if Cloyster can't break through the aforementioned Steel- and Water-types (by haxing them, for instance).

Vacuum wave Keldeo is a non-gimmick check to the posted set, as KO's with Vacuum Wave (even at +0 defense). However you can still get haxed to death even if you run scarf/timid (unless the cloyster isn't running a speed boosting nature). Keldeo hits 519 speed with scarf, cloyster hits 524.

252 SpA Keldeo Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cloyster: 242-288 (100.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 180-210 (55.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 105-130 (32.5 - 40.2%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO

There IS poliwrath (which has water absorb) but then you're using poliwrath lol

Still, why a Scarfer is running priority? Ok I see this viable as Specs, and yes it can check Cloyster if it doesn't set up. But if it does, its unreliable, just like every slower priority or slower Water immune "checks".

Anyway I would like to add some sets, so this isn't just Cloyster.

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Blue Flare
- Synthesis

Terrakion @ Expert Belt
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Freeze-Dry
- Substitute

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Shift Gear
- Substitute

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Foul Play

 

[G-Luke]

I think klefki prefers topsy turvy, or dark void, but if that's or cup of tea.

Anyways, anyone want a battle? I wanna see the thing I submitted in action

 

[Reisuke]

I think klefki prefers topsy turvy, or dark void, but if that's or cup of tea.

Anyways, anyone want a battle? I wanna see the thing I submitted in action

If you gimme a sec i can.

Also:

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Eruption
- Recover

Tran with relaible recovery. Woohoo. Non specially defensive because insane boosting in this meta's gonna break through him quickly

 

[aesf]

If you guys really believe cloyster is broken, show me some quality replays in which cloyster completely warps the matchup or something and I'll look into it.