Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

[kitsuneae]

Why all mons? Why did it suddenly become overpowered on Dragonite and Arcanine if regular OU can handle both just fine WITHOUT extra coverage.
... why take it away from mons that only mostly use it already?

Because normally these mons have limited options and there's a ton more room for abuse now there's a sketch move. It may not be an issue in OU due to checks and game balance, but game balance is really wonky in sketchmons to the point of broken. Remember this isn't OU: ANYTHING can do baton pass and/or boost it's attack. This is why I said it needs banning on all mons in the sketch league as it's super abusable with no checks outside of itself. Having it on mons that can already learn it only frees up room for an extra sketch move to make it worse.

If there was more than one move with +2 priority it wouldn't be an issue as then we could check it with other moves besides extreme speed. There's just zero checks, especially now there's countless ways to power the move up and/or increase speed.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The reason we're not discussing Dnite and Arcanine is because these don't get stab, tell me, what makes Pinsir broken outside of Espeed? Nothing. I just want Extreme speed restricted from those who do not learn it

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Because normally these mons have limited options and there's a ton more room for abuse now there's a sketch move. It may not be an issue in OU due to checks and game balance, but game balance is really wonky in sketchmons to the point of broken. Remember this isn't OU: ANYTHING can do baton pass and/or boost it's attack. This is why I said it needs banning on all mons in the sketch league as it's super abusable with no checks outside of itself. Having it on mons that can already learn it only frees up room for an extra sketch move to make it worse.

If there was more than one move with +2 priority it wouldn't be an issue as then we could check it with other moves besides extreme speed. There's just zero checks, especially now there's countless ways to power the move up and/or increase speed.

Okay. Then after Extremespeed got banned, how do you check teams with 3-4 Shell Smash/Geomancy/Shift Gear users? Remember that many pokes can power through Unaware pokes because their HP and Defenses don't even reach 100. Steel types are generally bulky and they can just power through Clefable because of STAB SE move and if they have Grass coverage, rip Quagsire. And that's assuming you carry Unaware pokes, which don't fit into HO teams.

If you don't carry any Unaware pokes, random set up sweepers can just sweep you unless you carry Scarf Ditto in all teams.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I'm #2 on the ladder, and I really don't think Espeed or Mega Pinsir are overpowered per se - just that the combination of Mega Pinsir and another Espeed can very quickly become unmanageable to the kind of balance cores I've encountered on the ladder (since no one really wants to run pure offense because of Espeed's effect on that as well). I'd support a sketched move clause if possible.

I've been using Espeed Aurorus a lot and it's really amazing how good this mon is - quite a bit expect Boomburst (I assume) and leave things in that they really shouldn't - and it's not like 4x ice resists not named Heatran are common. Similarly, I think Gear Grind Megazor is an underrated threat - and between them they resist and beat 1 v 1 every Espeeder. I'm simplifying the ease I've had in dealing with Espeed, but I think individually it's not that serious of a threat but can quickly get out of hand if stacked well - I fought a particularly nasty Pinsir/Snorlax/SYLVEON Espeed core that I was just not prepared for at all, for example, and ended up adding Heatran to my team to hopefully deal with that in the future.

I don't necessarily believe the broke checks broke idea, either - If multiboosters are a serious issue without espeed, looking at ways to manage that without centralizing the meta on Espeed would be favorable. Of course, I'm not super sure how that would be possible without move clause + outright banning at least one of the nastier boosting moves, but I think all OMs have that issue with power creep unfortunately.

My point is that Espeed alone is not the problem - teams built specifically to stack multiple Espeed users and types are, just as teams built to stack Geomancy would be, and so on. I think Move Clause would enhance the meta by forcing movepool diversity.

 

[dsm77773]

Okay. Then after Extremespeed got banned, how do you check teams with 3-4 Shell Smash/Geomancy/Shift Gear users? Remember that many pokes can power through Unaware pokes because their HP and Defenses don't even reach 100. Steel types are generally bulky and they can just power through Clefable because of STAB SE move and if they have Grass coverage, rip Quagsire. And that's assuming you carry Unaware pokes, which don't fit into HO teams.

If you don't carry any Unaware pokes, random set up sweepers can just sweep you unless you carry Scarf Ditto in all teams.

^ And that's why I want a move clause. Want to restrict Extreme Speed in some way? Done. Want to restrict extreme set-up? Done.
If you restrict only Extreme Speed... well goodbye meta. I seriously don't want a meta based on set-up, and Extreme Speed is very good but fine if you can only have one abuser. Still very strong. And then we must stop set-up. Thus the Move Clause, both are achieved. At the same time.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

You know how Chopin? An entirely different clause. Why do we need two broken things equalising each other out? Just restrict those insane set up moves, and priority spam/brute force. The problem is never espeed spam imo, that's just silly. When you put them together you're checked by the same things, I'd rather have something to support Diggersby than another espeed spammer.

 

[sin(pi)]

You know how Chopin? An entirely different clause. Why do we need two broken things equalising each other out? Just restrict those insane set up moves, and priority spam/brute force. The problem is never espeed spam imo, that's just silly. When you put them together you're checked by the same things, I'd rather have something to support Diggersby than another espeed spammer.

Isn't this the entire premise behind things like berdspam? Using mons with similar checks to wear said checks down?

 

[dsm77773]

Isn't this the entire premise behind things like berdspam? Using mons with similar checks to wear said checks down?

Yup. And stacking offense as a whole too; birdspam, dragonspam, whatever-type-spam...
The idea is to overwhelm or wear down said checks.

 

[I like donkeys]

You know how Chopin? An entirely different clause. Why do we need two broken things equalising each other out? Just restrict those insane set up moves, and priority spam/brute force. The problem is never espeed spam imo, that's just silly. When you put them together you're checked by the same things, I'd rather have something to support Diggersby than another espeed spammer.

Like some others in this thread have said, spamming similar Pokemon on the same team is a viable strategy (birdspam is a good one). Normally, most people won't dedicate halve their team to check certain threats, in fact people will willingly use as little as possible to check these threats (usually just one mon, assuming the target is not broken) so they can focus on other aspects of their team and prepare for other threats. The good thing about spamming threats is that, like others have said, they overwhelm or wear down each others checks (and sometimes counters) so that they are free to wreak havoc on the opposition.
Now you may say, why do this when you can just bring a different type of Pokemon to deal with said checks (like for example bringing Charizard Y to beat Skarmory and pave the way for Mega Pinsir)? Most teams will bring other Pokemon to deal with other potential members of your team (for example bring in Tyranitar check Charizard Y and other fire types that threaten Skarmory), but spamming threats means that if you bring down their 1 or 2 checks, then there's not much the opponent can do from that point on.
Of course it does have it's downsides such as being one-dimensional and predictable, and if the opponent has more checks/counters then your spam can handle, then well...

lel

So yeah i think i thoroughly covered the basics of spamming for you and hopefully other people too :3

 

[xJownage]

You know how Chopin? An entirely different clause. Why do we need two broken things equalising each other out? Just restrict those insane set up moves, and priority spam/brute force. The problem is never espeed spam imo, that's just silly. When you put them together you're checked by the same things, I'd rather have something to support Diggersby than another espeed spammer.

You're arguing a moot point by now, and you keep saying the same things.

You continue to be SO adamant in that since Extreme Speed breaks Mega Pinsir, it gives us reason to ban Espeed and not Mega Pinsir. There is a reason we didn't ban king's shield on Aegislash in OU. It's because we don't do that unless the move is uncompetitive. It's a part of the banning policy, so you can't really make a good argument disputing that; there is literally no precedent. Why don't they ban swords dance on Blaziken instead? Isn't that what pushes it over the top in OU (for standard blaze)? There is no fine line on where you need to stop banning moves and ban mons instead, so its already shaky ground; to add to the fact that nothing else is broken with extremespeed, there is no reason to ban it just for pinsir to stay. That is just hoping to get your way, and nothing else.

Like it has been said before, Espeed is broken on nothing else, so lets stop talking about it. Furthermore, it being the sole reason pinsir is broken is not a good reason to ban Espeed for the entire meta and not Pinsir itself. We're not banning SS/QD/ other setup moves because this meta would be asking for major issues and overcentralization; not to mention that most of the mons that have setup already get very powerful stabs that still overpower offensive teams that lack checks.

 

[thesecondbest]

OK... After a rough start using fun stuff like Shedinja and Sceptile, I have gone full try hard mode, using a team with 3Espeeders, Rapid Spin Weavile, Ditto, and a secret mon in the back. And I must say that each Espeeder has swept. Diggersby smashes stall with EQ to beat aggron and wild charge for skarmory. Snorlax is a meme but it can set up fairly easily. It also counters fridgespeed. And Pinsir, you know what that does. Espeed is broken on all of these. Espeed warps the meta into "who's fastest wins" and even with a move clause, you don't know which of the sweepers your opponent will bring. Pinsir isn't broken without espeed and espeed restricts the meta. Ban broken strategies, or ways to cheat, rather than preemptively stopping it by banning some kids who could cheat. Broken moves like Spore, Espeed, Final Gambit, Geomancy etc. that normally have low distribution have that for a reason. Ban the moves/strategies so we can have versatility without brokenness. Like look at STABmons. Random NU normal types go from crap togood becuase of on move, and you know how many random normal types there are? You can't prepare for all of them. So ban the move, not Pinsir. Move clause isn't even enough - I've realized that by playing more and I've won at least 10 in a row abusing this crap - so ban ESpeed, Spore, Final Gambit, and anything else if necessary.

 

[TotalAsteroid]

Alright, I'm going to say Ban Espeed on all pokemon, as set-up is actually easy to prepare for on a lot of pokemon. Priority Topsy-Turvy / Haze / Heart Swap, Unaware, etc. all are ways to deal with insane set-up. The only thing that might hurt it is Priority, and that is generally weak. Espeed is just too strong a priority and a move clause gives too much restriction and allows Pinsir to still be absurdly powerful. Without Pinsir and on its own, it's fine. Together is a group is too much and Pinsir destroys lives. A move clause puts a restriction on all moves while Mega Pinsir runs around with 104 non-immune +2 priority. If we just ban Mega Pinsir, then I need to run a ghost type on all of my teams, and I don't want that. Plus, Aurorus is still around. I originally wanted a move clause, but now I want Espeed banned on all pokemon.

Please suspect King's Rock / Razor Fang

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

OK... After a rough start using fun stuff like Shedinja and Sceptile, I have gone full try hard mode, using a team with 3Espeeders, Rapid Spin Weavile, Ditto, and a secret mon in the back. And I must say that each Espeeder has swept. Diggersby smashes stall with EQ to beat aggron and wild charge for skarmory. Snorlax is a meme but it can set up fairly easily. It also counters fridgespeed. And Pinsir, you know what that does. Espeed is broken on all of these. Espeed warps the meta into "who's fastest wins" and even with a move clause, you don't know which of the sweepers your opponent will bring. Pinsir isn't broken without espeed and espeed restricts the meta. Ban broken strategies, or ways to cheat, rather than preemptively stopping it by banning some kids who could cheat. Broken moves like Spore, Espeed, Final Gambit, Geomancy etc. that normally have low distribution have that for a reason. Ban the moves/strategies so we can have versatility without brokenness. Like look at STABmons. Random NU normal types go from crap togood becuase of on move, and you know how many random normal types there are? You can't prepare for all of them. So ban the move, not Pinsir. Move clause isn't even enough - I've realized that by playing more and I've won at least 10 in a row abusing this crap - so ban ESpeed, Spore, Final Gambit, and anything else if necessary.

If you use that method, there'll be a lot of bans, which turn this into old STABmons (even though it's for moves instead of pokes), and that's what we want to avoid, too much bans.

Alright, I'm going to say Ban Espeed on all pokemon, as set-up is actually easy to prepare for on a lot of pokemon. Priority Topsy-Turvy / Haze / Heart Swap, Unaware, etc. all are ways to deal with insane set-up. The only thing that might hurt it is Priority, and that is generally weak. Espeed is just too strong a priority and a move clause gives too much restriction and allows Pinsir to still be absurdly powerful. Without Pinsir and on its own, it's fine. Together is a group is too much and Pinsir destroys lives. A move clause puts a restriction on all moves while Mega Pinsir runs around with 104 non-immune +2 priority. If we just ban Mega Pinsir, then I need to run a ghost type on all of my teams, and I don't want that. Plus, Aurorus is still around. I originally wanted a move clause, but now I want Espeed banned on all pokemon.

Please suspect King's Rock / Razor Fang

Yes, set up is easy to prepare for, but not if you faced 3-4 of them in a team. I like donkeys explained how spamming strategy works and I'm sure you understand that. If you bring only one check for set up spam, once your check gets worn down, prepare to get swept. Unless you bring like, 3 dedicated checks for set up sweepers, you WILL get swept. I explained how Unaware pokes don't have enough Defenses to handle the threats in this meta, and Prankster pokes are generally frail (Thundurus I, Sableye, Whimsicott all have Starmie Defenses or lower). The best poke to prepare for set up sweepers is Scarf Ditto if you're fine with carrying it on all your teams.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I don't know why we're using "extreme speed checks set up" as literally the only positive aspect of it, because setup is pretty fucking broken even with extreme speed, you can run sub to negate the extreme speed spam, or just run something like Mega Diancie with Shell smash.

People are having troubles with all the extreme speed abusers, Pinsir is stupidly restricting for teambuilding. I find myself bringing three dedicated checks to it on stall, which is just retarded. Skarmory with Will O Wisp is hardly reliable, like really. But the point is that what makes it broken is that it now has an entirely new moveslot, Extreme speed effectively combining Quick attack + Frustration into one, freeing up shit like Knock off, Stone edge, Earthquake and Substitute. So the problem is pretty simple, if we restrict extreme speed to those who do not naturally learn it we solve the Diggersby issue, we solve the Mega Pinsir issue, we solve ALL the other issues. I mean all of these pokemon have things that mean they're not directly outclassed by any of them, and while a sketch clause would help, it does not solve the issue. Diggersby is also stupidly good, it doesn't either have any counters. Again, you could bring up Skarmory but skarmory dies to, for example Lum berry Knock off/Wild charge, and Lum is perfectly viable to negate the Sableyes, unaware doesn't work as earthquake does between 60-70 to both Quagsire and Clefable, easily knocking them out afterwards.

Extreme speed does not bring one single positive thing to the metagame, not one thing. You can't use the "Espeed checks set up" argument, because set up is also completely broken, and one broken thing should not be allowed just because of checking another broken thing, you know what we do then? We ban both.

 

[TotalAsteroid]

Prankster pokes are generally frail (Thundurus I, Sableye, Whimsicott all have Starmie Defenses or lower).

I'm fine with Ditto, Sableye, Mega Banette, or Klefki. Banette could also make an amazing counter-sweeper. The problem is that there are a multitude of ways that you can prevent set-up spam from going to far, while Espeed spam has no real counters due to priority. It doesn't even matter that they're frail, as Topsy-Turvy gives the rebuffs and Stealth Rock is a percentage. Then it's a forced switch. Don't forget, the set-up pokemon get worn down, but not nearly as much. You only need 1, maybe 2 set-up users to counter it and it will give use to some lure sets, causing skillful team building and prediction to get rewarded. And if you bring up that Magic Bounce counters TT, it's unaffected my Magic Coat / Magic Bounce (just so you know). It is, however, blocked by Sub. Haze and Heart Swap, however, are unaffected.

So the problem is pretty simple, if we restrict extreme speed to those who do not naturally learn it we solve the Diggersby issue, we solve the Mega Pinsir issue, we solve ALL the other issues.

If we only remove Espeed as a sketch move, pokemon who do learn it now become the kings/queens of the meta with set-up spam being more prominent, but having access to Espeed. Prankster users won't be able to counter it and I do admit that Unaware users have generally low defenses. That's why if we ban Espeed, it should be banned entirely.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Well that I disagree with. Dragonite running Shell smash is walled by Skarmory, Clefable and Quagsire. On offence using pokemon like tank chomp, klefki ect will help you. No other real viable Extreme speed user, stab is what makes extreme speed amazing.

 

[xJownage]

I don't know why we're using "extreme speed checks set up" as literally the only positive aspect of it, because setup is pretty fucking broken even with extreme speed, you can run sub to negate the extreme speed spam, or just run something like Mega Diancie with Shell smash.

People are having troubles with all the extreme speed abusers, Pinsir is stupidly restricting for teambuilding. I find myself bringing three dedicated checks to it on stall, which is just retarded. Skarmory with Will O Wisp is hardly reliable, like really. But the point is that what makes it broken is that it now has an entirely new moveslot, Extreme speed effectively combining Quick attack + Frustration into one, freeing up shit like Knock off, Stone edge, Earthquake and Substitute. So the problem is pretty simple, if we restrict extreme speed to those who do not naturally learn it we solve the Diggersby issue, we solve the Mega Pinsir issue, we solve ALL the other issues. I mean all of these pokemon have things that mean they're not directly outclassed by any of them, and while a sketch clause would help, it does not solve the issue. Diggersby is also stupidly good, it doesn't either have any counters. Again, you could bring up Skarmory but skarmory dies to, for example Lum berry Knock off/Wild charge, and Lum is perfectly viable to negate the Sableyes, unaware doesn't work as earthquake does between 60-70 to both Quagsire and Clefable, easily knocking them out afterwards.

Extreme speed does not bring one single positive thing to the metagame, not one thing. You can't use the "Espeed checks set up" argument, because set up is also completely broken, and one broken thing should not be allowed just because of checking another broken thing, you know what we do then? We ban both.

The other espeeders aren't nearly as broken, and even if diggersby is borderline as well, thats still only 2 mons that are broken because of the move. The rest of the espeeders aren't that bad, in fact, only ursaring is really threatening and its relatively easy to play around. Pinsir is broken, the rest aren't, so we ban the move that makes pinsir broken.

Extreme speed does not bring one single positive thing to the metagame

God damn I'm sick of hearing this in general (not from you). This is a completely invalid argument because in order to ban something, it needs to bring something NEGATIVE to the metagame. Pinsir does this by virtue of extremespeed, but that doesn't mean that extremespeed as a move is a problem, it means extremespeed on pinsir is a problem. This is easily solved by banning pinsir. Like I said, we ban mons before moves, and we only ban moves if they are uncompetitive because otherwise there is no definition on whether to ban mons or moves. Espeed isn't uncompetitive, so setting the precedent for banning the move instead of the mon becomes a heinous slippery slope.

We can say the same "so and so doesn't bring one single positive thing to the metagame" to describe a ton of mons/moves; that doesn't mean they are banworthy. Stop suggesting such.

Now please address our arguments. You have made upwards of 10 consecutive posts without addressing all of the arguments presented to you at length, and the few you have are one liners or one line responses. You're not gonna convince anybody without actually arguing something.

 

[kitsuneae]

Okay. Then after Extremespeed got banned, how do you check teams with 3-4 Shell Smash/Geomancy/Shift Gear users? Remember that many pokes can power through Unaware pokes because their HP and Defenses don't even reach 100. Steel types are generally bulky and they can just power through Clefable because of STAB SE move and if they have Grass coverage, rip Quagsire. And that's assuming you carry Unaware pokes, which don't fit into HO teams.

If you don't carry any Unaware pokes, random set up sweepers can just sweep you unless you carry Scarf Ditto in all teams.

Not many mons do multi shell smash as it leaves them weak to anything priority and there are many, many +1 moves as well as quick claw to give options. Geomancy telegraphs hard as each one takes two rounds (past the first anyway) which gives tons of room for forcing a swap. Gear shift can be nasty, but it's not as popular as contrary as it leaves the mon open and not doing damage. Contrary only appears on certain mons making it easy to spot.

Typically against multi-boosters I use heart shift + prankster, dragon tail/roar/ect or destiny bond + poison/burn/taunt. There's also unaware like you said and if you make the unaware guy also have transform then you end up just as nasty as the other guy as transform copies stat boosts but not abilities AND due to unaware still being there enemy stat boosts don't effect you anymore. You can also boost like mad to counter or rely on type/move immunities (ex: soundproof). There are many checks here!

 

[dsm77773]

Not many mons do multi shell smash as it leaves them weak to anything priority and there are many, many +1 moves as well as quick claw to give options. Geomancy telegraphs hard as each one takes two rounds (past the first anyway) which gives tons of room for forcing a swap. Gear shift can be nasty, but it's not as popular as contrary as it leaves the mon open and not doing damage. Contrary only appears on certain mons making it easy to spot.

Typically against multi-boosters I use heart shift + prankster, dragon tail/roar/ect or destiny bond + poison/burn/taunt. There's also unaware like you said and if you make the unaware guy also have transform then you end up just as nasty as the other guy as transform copies stat boosts but not abilities AND due to unaware still being there enemy stat boosts don't effect you anymore. You can also boost like mad to counter or rely on type/move immunities (ex: soundproof). There are many checks here!

But I'm sure you'll need more than one of these to stop such a extreme set-up. Thus, set-up overcentralizing. Thus, I don't want a meta like this.

 

[sin(pi)]

Transform copies abilities according to bulbapedia (and based on my experience). Quick claw is also horribly gimmicky and luck-based.

 

[kitsuneae]

But I'm sure you'll need more than one of these to stop such a extreme set-up. Thus, set-up overcentralizing. Thus, I don't want a meta like this.

Typically I find it's just one mon needed to stop one mon. I had a single garchomp wreck a team of boosters as he used stealth rock, sand storm and dragon tail over and over. Some people use toxic, light screen/reflect and roar to do the same thing. People panic when they see destiny bond and will spam non-damage moves to save themselves making them ripe for toxic. People forfeit when heart swap hits as you can make a single liepard or klefki wreck their team. Don't underestimate the power of disruption.

Transform copies abilities according to bulbapedia (and based on my experience). Quick claw is also horribly gimmicky and luck-based.

Bulbapedia may say that, but I keep having it stay the same on on Showdown. Might be a glitch, but it still happens. Showdown glitches a bunch such as Electrify sometimes being multi-turn and sometimes not even though bulbapedia says it's single turn and I have had mons with higher speed but low health be outsped by lower speed mons with no speed bosting anything before because the damage would have killed my mon if the slower mon went first. This isn't the regular game.

On quick claw: it's a gimmick but a gimmick is better than nothing.

 

[TotalAsteroid]

TT
Phasing
Heart Swap
Transform
Haze
Destiny Bond
Priority vs SS
Unaware

There are many options and these are the ones I thought of in a minute. Prankster is required on a lot of these options, but there are options if you don't want a prankster user.
Also, your stat boosts don't matter when you have unaware. Shell Smash, as said, leaves you weak to priority and Geomancy gives you a one-chance sweep. Plus, a move clause still leaves in pokemon such as Mega Pinsir and Diggersby in the meta. Plus, I don't want to run a ghost on every single team.

 

[kitsuneae]

TT
Plus, a move clause still leaves in pokemon such as Mega Pinsir and Diggersby in the meta. Plus, I don't want to run a ghost on every single team.

Ugh... Diggersby. It's the "mega pinsir" for people who want a different mega on the team. Super abused with extreme speed! Diggersby is worse, IMHO, as the more powerful ghosts tend to be weak to ground with earthquake being destroyer of walls. Ghosts also can't hit Diggersby easily thanks to normal typing.

 

[Esprite]

Is it a glitch my Porygon-Z can't learn Explosion?

 

[MattL]

About King's Rock Cloyster, this isn't a comment on whether it's "uncompetitive," but I've found that Sash Cloyster is much more useful. This isn't even from a "how much the item inceases its ability to sweep consistently" standpoint, but many times it's saved me against some huge threat that would have swept me if I didn't have the Sash; I don't even set up (because I can't), but instead revenge kill it at the cost of being brought down to the Sash. Also, I feel like King's Rock Cloyster becomes worse as one faces better players because everyone knows Cloyster always runs basically one set, so better players can prevent non-Sash Cloyster from setting up much more consistently. And I don't like relying on 41% chances to come through when the 59% results in losing your sweeper.