It shouldn't be. Probably an oversight. I'll tell TI about it.
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Metagame Sketchmons
- Thread starter Fissure
- Start date
It shouldn't be. Probably an oversight. I'll tell TI about it.
Ban +1 Zmoves, Ban shift gear.
+1 zmoves are pretty cancerous, and while on stall I can *usually* deal with them they are completely unpredictable and overpowered.
As for shift gear, I have never struggled with it, but I'm willing to accept the evidence against it.
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We are not in dissagreement about banning +1 Zmoves which is good. As for SG, i do believe the reason u dont have a problem with it is because both ur teams wall it very well. One runs 2 unaware mons, while the other has the msab + shed combo. Both of these do a very good job of basically making SG mega metagross irrelevant. However, the answer to SG shouldnt be to simply run what you run, as that makes the meta way too overcentralising.
Ban +1 Zmoves, dnb shift gear.
+1 zmoves are pretty cancerous, and while on stall I can *usually* deal with them they are completely unpredictable and overpowered.
As for shift gear, I have never struggled with it, so if someone has a good argument for why it's broken please tell me, but as is I'm voting DNB.
The reason why SG is so damn threatening is it makes mons incredibly difficult to revenge kill, thereby making it almost impossible to stop a sweep without priority. Slow-ish mons (such as alolan wak) with incredibly high attack, can simply swap into a resist, boost once, and essentially sweep your team without you being able to do much to stop it. Mons such as mega meta get to invest into defenses and hp instead of having to worry much about speed, making them incredibly bulky, while also being able to set up once and sweep a team due to high af attack, and a great ability in tough claws. Many a battle (good times:( sin(pi) ) have simply been decided on who can get mega meta into a resist and set up first, which makes for quite boring matches and a meta in general. there are hardly any switchins in the meta to a +1 mmeta, barring quag and shed. +1 252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 141-166 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock ; +1 252 Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock ; +1 252 Atk Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 196-232 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock And if mmeta sets up +2... well essentially gg most of the time.
I understand that u run quag and shed, and that these mons dont make SG seem like much of an issue, but trust me for the majority of teams SG is just incredibly hard to counter. I speak from experience, as I have both swept many times with SG, and have been swept by SG many times.
Oh and those calcs were with jolly mega meta lol, so it will acc hit even harder
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I agree with Fardin tbh. Scarf pher just doesnt really exist much, as its not that useful, and sash is far more common and useful. Furthermore, by reducing investment into speed, mmeta will actually tank a hit from scarf pher quite nicely. and really, other than scarf pher, nothing really outspeeds mmeta at +2 speed, even without much speed investment.
I laddered up using darksylvion's M-Meta set (40 Spe polish+V-Create, virtually the same thing as shift gear for the sake of discussion.) At first I missed the immediate speed that 252 Jolly brings, but I quickly noticed that I most often used Metagross as a cleaner, not as the "bring it in whenever and chunk/kill something" monstrosity that it is commonly known for. My point is, with Shift gear/RP/Agility sets I really do think that all that speed is unnecessary because you want to put yourself in a situation where once you set up, you win; there's no possible revenge killing about it. And like Racool said, not only is Scarf Pheromosa not a common threat, it doesnt come close to OHKO'ing from full with Precipice, and Meta even has a chance to live the rarely seen V-Create.
252+ Atk Pheromosa Precipice Blades vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 212-250 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pheromosa V-create vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 316-372 (89 - 104.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously Mega-Metagross is one of the most flexible mons with what sets it can successfully pull off (Hell, that's the allure of this whole metagame!) A lot of that flexibility is team dependent, so if you really have a #NeedForSpeed216+, then it will almost definitely work because Metagross is one of the most phenomenal pokemon in almost every meta that it's allowed in.
P.S. I forgot to mention that ADAMANT METAGROSS IS SO GODDAMN STRONG, even unboosted!
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https://gyazo.com/0212cd3673ccd58b649a38b6de200e45
Chansey is the worst thing ever, and I won't back down from this statement... Katarna is also nonsense. Also, one of those losses was from me being AFK, so... it hardly counts. Today wasn't a good day.
Anyways... Ban Shift Gear. This is an easy decision, considering it can make incredibly broken sweepers. Mega Metagross and Katarna are the worst of the lot, but there's a ton that happens to be stupid with a Shift Gear or two. (*coughGarchompandJirachicough*)
Also, Ban +1 Z-moves. Swoobat might not even be the worst offender, considering how frail it is. That would go to either Jirachi, Latios, or... Garchomp. Racool showed me how dumb they could be, and I was convinced ever since.
Chansey is the worst thing ever, and I won't back down from this statement... Katarna is also nonsense. Also, one of those losses was from me being AFK, so... it hardly counts. Today wasn't a good day.
Anyways... Ban Shift Gear. This is an easy decision, considering it can make incredibly broken sweepers. Mega Metagross and Katarna are the worst of the lot, but there's a ton that happens to be stupid with a Shift Gear or two. (*coughGarchompandJirachicough*)
Also, Ban +1 Z-moves. Swoobat might not even be the worst offender, considering how frail it is. That would go to either Jirachi, Latios, or... Garchomp. Racool showed me how dumb they could be, and I was convinced ever since.
Wanted to post my reasoning for voting ban on both after a little further testing. I knew I wanted to ban both from the get-go but I just wanted to have some more "evidence" for myself, for lack of a better word.
Shift Gear: Physical attacker's best set up move is IMO just a little too good. Half of this thread has been about how centralizing SG Mega Metagross is. It's not like Meta is the only user of it in the first place; I've seen it used on Crawdaunt and looked at my team and was like "oh, my entire team gets OHKO'ed now, nice." I hate to use the word, but it's rather mindless because of the lack of counters. Your team better have Quag, Clef, or a bulky Haze-er or you're just boned, and half the time you're boned anyway. It's generally kind of hard to play so perfectly that you NEVER let the shift gear user set up. And plus, Dragon Dance still exists, so this isn't a huge nerf to the metagame, it's simply something to help balance it out a little.
+1 Z-Moves: These are are the definition of mindless. Makes any decent mon into something you need to sack half of your team to take out, if you even can in the first place. And I repeat: It's generally kind of hard to play so perfectly that you NEVER let the conversion/etc. user set up. No question on why these need to go. Nothing else to say really.
Shift Gear: Physical attacker's best set up move is IMO just a little too good. Half of this thread has been about how centralizing SG Mega Metagross is. It's not like Meta is the only user of it in the first place; I've seen it used on Crawdaunt and looked at my team and was like "oh, my entire team gets OHKO'ed now, nice." I hate to use the word, but it's rather mindless because of the lack of counters. Your team better have Quag, Clef, or a bulky Haze-er or you're just boned, and half the time you're boned anyway. It's generally kind of hard to play so perfectly that you NEVER let the shift gear user set up. And plus, Dragon Dance still exists, so this isn't a huge nerf to the metagame, it's simply something to help balance it out a little.
+1 Z-Moves: These are are the definition of mindless. Makes any decent mon into something you need to sack half of your team to take out, if you even can in the first place. And I repeat: It's generally kind of hard to play so perfectly that you NEVER let the conversion/etc. user set up. No question on why these need to go. Nothing else to say really.
Recently I've been fiddling around with a stall breaker regigigas:
Regigigas @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Shift Gear
With max speed, it outspeeds many stall pokemon through slow start, toxapex is a good example. Subbing up on something slow lets you easily stall for turns, and also set up a shift gear. I've been testing it out some, and it has worked pretty reliably. Return and earthquake give you pretty good coverage. The only two relevant pokemon who wall it are skarmory and celesteela, both of which can be taken care of by magnezone. But now that shift gear is suspect, it may never see the light of day.
In that case I'll talk about pyukumuku for a sec:
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Memento
- Baton Pass
- Recover
Pyukumuku becomes so much better with foul play. As the bulkiest unaware pokemon, I think it's pretty good in a tier where any pokemon can learn belly drum. Plus it has a good typing, reliable recovery, and a fantastic movepool when foul play is added. It could also run heartswap/baton pass or topsy turvy, but the damage from foul play is so necessary to pyukumuku's success. That being said, I think the set speaks for itself: It's the ultimate option to stopping the countless possible set-up sweepers.
Regigigas @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Shift Gear
With max speed, it outspeeds many stall pokemon through slow start, toxapex is a good example. Subbing up on something slow lets you easily stall for turns, and also set up a shift gear. I've been testing it out some, and it has worked pretty reliably. Return and earthquake give you pretty good coverage. The only two relevant pokemon who wall it are skarmory and celesteela, both of which can be taken care of by magnezone. But now that shift gear is suspect, it may never see the light of day.
In that case I'll talk about pyukumuku for a sec:
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Memento
- Baton Pass
- Recover
Pyukumuku becomes so much better with foul play. As the bulkiest unaware pokemon, I think it's pretty good in a tier where any pokemon can learn belly drum. Plus it has a good typing, reliable recovery, and a fantastic movepool when foul play is added. It could also run heartswap/baton pass or topsy turvy, but the damage from foul play is so necessary to pyukumuku's success. That being said, I think the set speaks for itself: It's the ultimate option to stopping the countless possible set-up sweepers.
Also, if I may add my two cents, I don't think shift gear is ban worthy. It's basically just dragon dance. Most d-dancers are built to outspeed faster threats anyways, so the extra speed from shift gear is a novelty at best.
Also walled by Quag ;)
I'd suggest Adamant with a bulkier spread (you only need 44 EVs to outspeed scarf 100s at +2), and you can make it so that quag can't break your (101 HP) subs which is p huge vs stall. A spread of 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe with an Adamant nature would work:
0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 87-103 (21 - 24.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
This lets you sub up on Chansey and PP stall Quag/others out of recovery with a bit of luck.
edit: on shift gear vs DD, shift gear is more viable on slower stuff eg stuff in the base 45-80 tiers, because you can outspeed the majority of the metagame after a boost. DD alolawak, for example, is rather too slow.
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The point of shift gear is that it means you dont have to invest into speed, and can instead make ur sweeper bulky af. This makes revenge killing extraordinarily difficult, thus making SG broken. Add that to the fact that most shift gear users are resistant/immune to espeed, as well as the fact that they tend to have ridiculous attack and a great ability... well its hard to say that its not ban worthy tbh.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess I typically bring reliable phasing, so I tend to not have problems.
That's probably better.
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A reminder to everyone that suspect will end in 2 days. If you wanna get reqs and vote, do it quickly because there will be no extension. Ladder will be back to regular once the suspect ends.
Confirming as sg1 sourukingu.
A couple of thoughts before I express my vote.
+1 in all stats Z-moves are unhealthy and should go. They have the potential to sweep entire teams or at least a large number of opposing pokemon once you find a safe moment to execute the Z-Move with the adequate member of your team. I'm voting for ban.
Shift Gear is very dangerous too. When run on some of the most common physically offensive threats one only activation puts many pokemon in OHKO range. Shift Gear users are nearly impossible to revenge kill due to its +2 increase in Speed. Priority moves can help, but the combination of Tapu Lele (which summons Psychic Terain) and a Shift Gear user is a popular team option to play around that. Mega Metagross' incredible bulk, coverage, physical attack and speed make him the most fearsome Shift Gear user of the tier. He can easily find the right moment to set up due to his bulk.
That being said about Shift Gear, I could find Quiver Dance at a similar level of dangerousness if we talked in general. There are some remarkable Quiver Dance users, such as Xurkitree and Tapu Lele. However, I find Mega Metagross in particular as a pokemon that can abuse too much of Shift Gear. Thus, I'm voting for ban.
Shift Gear: Ban
+1 Z-moves: Ban
Ok so it's 27th of January now and I announce that the suspect is now over. The results are...
Shift Gear: 8 Ban, 0 No Ban
+1 All Stats Z-moves: 8 Ban, 0 No Ban
With that said Shift Gear and +1 All Stats Z-moves are now banned from sketching.
This means that ALL +1 stats Z-moves will be banned from sketching.
The moves are:
Celebrate
Conversion
Forest's Curse
Happy Hour
Hold Hands
Purify
Sketch
Trick or Treat
Tagging The Immortal for implementation.
Shift Gear: 8 Ban, 0 No Ban
+1 All Stats Z-moves: 8 Ban, 0 No Ban
With that said Shift Gear and +1 All Stats Z-moves are now banned from sketching.
This means that ALL +1 stats Z-moves will be banned from sketching.
The moves are:
Celebrate
Conversion
Forest's Curse
Happy Hour
Hold Hands
Purify
Sketch
Trick or Treat
Tagging The Immortal for implementation.
I want a recount >:(