Well, what I'm trying to say is that in big tournaments some sort of judge would be able to immediatly say if using Assist is legitimate by looking at the team. In a friendly match via wifi stuff like that wouldn't be necessary, of course.
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Sleep Clause V2: a better definiton for WiFi battles.
- Thread starter Incarnation
- Start date
Assist doesnt work that way, it takes anyone of the 4 moves of your pokemon (except for a notable few) and picks one at random, it inclueds fainted pokes but not the user of the move.
%age wise you'd need 6 sleep inducing moves (spread over 5 pokes), to reach 30%, assuming they each carry 4 moves and none of the moves are unselectable.
I believe there are only 2 pokes that can learn more than one sleep move and thats smeargle and darkrai (correct me if im wrong).
That being said,I think it'd would be rather hard (not impossible) to make a team based around the idea of abusing the sleep clause that way.
On the other side, one could argue, that whats stopping you from having 5 smeargles w only spore and focus punch to increase the odds to 100%. But such a statagey like that is pretty ballsy at best and easily worked around (ie insomnia)
But I just dont think they is a plausable way to abuse the 30% sleep chance with assist. Im not saying its impossible to do. I just dont think its really worth worrying about because of a moveset like that is just too hard to be productive.
Well, we actually don't want it to happen, anyway. So if it's not really plausible to do, that's more a gain than a loss.
I checked it just for fun, and it turns out both Venusaur and Exeggutor learn 2 Sleep moves:
Venusaur line (Grasswhistle, Sleep Powder)
Exeggutor line (Hypnosis, Sleep Powder)
So theoretically you could make an Assist Sleep Team by using Smeargle, Exeggutor and Venusaur. That doesn't make it a productive strategy at all, though.
Roserade also has grasswhistle and sleep powder.
One rule that would fit all the criteria mentioned above would simply be a list of moves that violate Sleep Clause if they put a second Pokémon to sleep, and a list of moves that don't. e.g. Assist, Metronome don't; Sleep Talk selecting a sleep move, Spore and all other n% sleep moves do. I don't think Effect Spore should ever violate sleep clause (although if effect spore puts someone to sleep, you shouldn't be able to put anyone else to sleep until the first pokémon wakes up). The advantages of listing moves is that it's always obvious to both players whether or not the clause was broken, even if they don't know each other's teams. (Incidentally, for completeness, what about secret power in grass? That has a sleep chance too. It can't come up over Wi-fi, though.)
This could work in theory, but it gets kind of hard when you need to mention specific scenario's, like an Encored Sleep Move.
But seeing as we have only discussed separate moves until now I think it's a good idea to start a list of moves/scenario's that break Sleep Clause.
Moves that break Sleep Clause when inducing Sleep
-Dark Void
-Sing
-Hypnosis
-Sleep Powder
-Spore
-Grasswhistle
-Psycho Shift (selected with Sleep Talk)
-Secret Power
Moves that do not break Sleep Clause when inducing Sleep
-Rest
-Effect Spore
-Metronome
-Sleep moves used by a pokémon forced to use it (Choice Items, Encore, Inprison, Torment) that is unable to switch out (Mean Look, Shadow Tag, Arena Trap)
I'm not sure about Assist anymore without the 30% cap, though. I know it's a long shot, but personally I don't want to fight a Scarfed Assist pokémon backed up by a team of Sleep Moves and unselectables.
Another problem is Encore on a pokémon that is able to switch out. Even though it is a 100% forced switch, using a Choiced Sleep Move is practically the same.
EDIT: Another one is, what if a Pokémon is put to Sleep by one of the non-Clausebreaking Moves before something else is put to Sleep. Are you still able to use a Clausebreaking Sleep Move after that?
I feel that Encoring a sleep move shouldn't force the Encored player to switch out (but a non-Tricked Choiced one does, if your opponent switches).
EDIT: Also, breaking the clause has always and should always be only when you use two of the rulebreaking moves; just because I rest before you send out your Sleep-inducer, doesn't mean you can't use Sleep Powder.
In any case, a list of moves that breaks the rule is actually less clear than a formal definition when stated correctly.
EDIT: Also, breaking the clause has always and should always be only when you use two of the rulebreaking moves; just because I rest before you send out your Sleep-inducer, doesn't mean you can't use Sleep Powder.
In any case, a list of moves that breaks the rule is actually less clear than a formal definition when stated correctly.
That's because the Rest user chooses whether to sleep or not. If Effect Spore activates, that's just an advantage for the Effect Sporer. Sleeping another Pokémon afterwards should break the rule.
By the way, Secret Power can't put anything to sleep in a Wi-Fi battle
OK, I have a question... how would the rule effect magic coat, bouncing back a sleeping move.
Example, lets say player 1 has 1 pokemon asleep (not from rest), and has a breloom using spore. Player 2, with zero pokemon asleep, magic coats the spore back on breloom. Would that be a dq?
Also, if it isnt a dq, what would happen if player 2 also had one pokemon asleep (not from rest)?
PS. Yawn should be inclueded in the list of sleep clause breakable moves.
Example, lets say player 1 has 1 pokemon asleep (not from rest), and has a breloom using spore. Player 2, with zero pokemon asleep, magic coats the spore back on breloom. Would that be a dq?
Also, if it isnt a dq, what would happen if player 2 also had one pokemon asleep (not from rest)?
PS. Yawn should be inclueded in the list of sleep clause breakable moves.
Opponent was the one that activated Effect Spore, they chose to use a contact move.
Magic Coat is a tricky one.. IMO the Magic Coater should not lose by defaut. Again, the coater may have been expecting Toxic or something and the Pokemon using the Sleep move knew the consequences of trying to sleep a Magic Coater.
However, I believe Magic Coat is an "in-between move". Basically if you reflect sleep on something don't conciously sleep another Pokemon again (Spore/Hypnosis/etc). However, if you already slept something and reflect sleep on yet another Pokemon you should not lose by default.
Really? That's news to me. It should be left that way.
yes, i dont think the magic coat user should lose. That means he has to be slept? Thats not too fair. I think that the new sleep clause is too strict and confusing to be the official sleep clause
Well thats why we're trying to make it simple. The bonus with shoddy and PBR is that the games themselves stop successive uses of sleep while wi-fi doesnt allow us that option. So we're trying to emulate the old sleep clause without completely banning sleep moves or forcing players to dq due to situation outside the players control.
I still dont understand how magic coat will work under this new clause.
Magic Coat is not counted in Sleep Clause. Same with Effect Spore.
I'm still not sure about what we should do with Encored Sleep moves and Magic Coat. It is true that it's not completely the sleeper's fault, but not limiting them could be really easy to exploit.
It could happen that he wanted to put his opponent's Scizor to sleep because it was a giant problem for his team, but accidentially put Swampert (which wasn't a problem at all for his team) to sleep when he switched in his Breloom. Bit of a mixed bag, again.
Also, if we say that non-clausebreaking moves will count as a first sleep, then Rest would become an exception of an exception. It could be easier to just say that ALL non-clausebreaking moves don't count as a first sleep, to keep things simpler.
Moves that break Sleep Clause when inducing Sleep
-Dark Void
-Sing
-Hypnosis
-Sleep Powder
-Spore
-Grasswhistle
-Psycho Shift (selected with Sleep Talk)
-Secret Power
-Yawn
Moves that do not break Sleep Clause when inducing Sleep
-Rest
-Effect Spore
-Metronome
-Sleep moves used by a pokémon forced to use it (Choice Items, Encore, Inprison, Torment) that is unable to switch out (Mean Look, Shadow Tag, Arena Trap)
Moves under discussion
-Encored Sleep Moves
-Magic Coat
I'll make a poll about it.
However, the user that accidentially put a pokémon to sleep due to Effect Spore couldn't choose which Pokémon he put to sleep.
It could happen that he wanted to put his opponent's Scizor to sleep because it was a giant problem for his team, but accidentially put Swampert (which wasn't a problem at all for his team) to sleep when he switched in his Breloom. Bit of a mixed bag, again.
Also, if we say that non-clausebreaking moves will count as a first sleep, then Rest would become an exception of an exception. It could be easier to just say that ALL non-clausebreaking moves don't count as a first sleep, to keep things simpler.
I know, but I thought we could mention it just for the list to be complete.
Thanks for mentioning Yawn, I completely forgot about it. I'll add it to the list.
Moves that break Sleep Clause when inducing Sleep
-Dark Void
-Sing
-Hypnosis
-Sleep Powder
-Spore
-Grasswhistle
-Psycho Shift (selected with Sleep Talk)
-Secret Power
-Yawn
Moves that do not break Sleep Clause when inducing Sleep
-Rest
-Effect Spore
-Metronome
-Sleep moves used by a pokémon forced to use it (Choice Items, Encore, Inprison, Torment) that is unable to switch out (Mean Look, Shadow Tag, Arena Trap)
Moves under discussion
-Encored Sleep Moves
-Magic Coat
I'll make a poll about it.
Also, there is one thing I believe in - If there's a pokemon on your opponent's team asleep already from anything other than Rest, you cannot sleep a second member with a method that violates Sleep Clause even if the first sleep was done in a way that wouldn't violate Sleep Clause. For example:
No one on my team is asleep so far and I have a Dunsparce out. My opponent switches in Breloom on my Headbutt, and now Dunsparce is asleep due to Effect Spore. Breloom should not be allowed to proceed to use Spore to sleep my switch-in.
As for the two moves under discussion, Encored Sleep Moves should not violate Sleep Clause only if the pokemon under Encore cannot switch out. If the player has the option of not sleeping multiple enemies, he/she should take the option. As for Magic Coat, there is a clear intention regarding Magic Coating sleep moves, but I'll say that Magic Coat is a defensive maneuver designed to guard the holder from status, and it seems a bit arbitrary to disallow such a maneuver just because someone on the holder's opponent's team is asleep.
No one on my team is asleep so far and I have a Dunsparce out. My opponent switches in Breloom on my Headbutt, and now Dunsparce is asleep due to Effect Spore. Breloom should not be allowed to proceed to use Spore to sleep my switch-in.
As for the two moves under discussion, Encored Sleep Moves should not violate Sleep Clause only if the pokemon under Encore cannot switch out. If the player has the option of not sleeping multiple enemies, he/she should take the option. As for Magic Coat, there is a clear intention regarding Magic Coating sleep moves, but I'll say that Magic Coat is a defensive maneuver designed to guard the holder from status, and it seems a bit arbitrary to disallow such a maneuver just because someone on the holder's opponent's team is asleep.
So far, Everyone except for me has voted to keep both Encored Sleep and Magic Coat unbanned, so I'll explain why I disagree.
-While Encoreing a Sleep move would indeed 100% force a switch, it would probably be worse if it wouldn't. The only thing the pokémon that used Encore do is wait for Encore to wear off, otherwise whatever he switched in would be put to Sleep.
-I will agree that Magic Coat is a way of defense, but well, it's Sleep Clause, we try to limit the amount of Sleeping Pokémon to 1. The user of Magic Coat intentionally tried to put an opposing pokémon to sleep, so to me it only seems fair to clause it.
I actually disagree with my own vote now, I think both scenarios should be banned.
-While Encoreing a Sleep move would indeed 100% force a switch, it would probably be worse if it wouldn't. The only thing the pokémon that used Encore do is wait for Encore to wear off, otherwise whatever he switched in would be put to Sleep.
-I will agree that Magic Coat is a way of defense, but well, it's Sleep Clause, we try to limit the amount of Sleeping Pokémon to 1. The user of Magic Coat intentionally tried to put an opposing pokémon to sleep, so to me it only seems fair to clause it.
I actually disagree with my own vote now, I think both scenarios should be banned.
I say "too bad". That's a risk you take when you use a Choiced Pokémon with a sleeping move. Suck it up.
Thanks for telling me what Smogon is and does. I had no idea!
Rage is a game mechanics issue thus it's being tested. Whether or not you want a revised Sleep Clause to attempt to clear up all of the cases you don't want to be punished for is much different.
I personally don't see why you should get punished for a valid strategy due to an error in the current rules.
I gave the example of Rage to show why discussing Effect Spore isn't useless. And if I have to explain what Smogon does to validate my arguement why we should be able to discuss it on smogon, I don't think I deserve biting sarcasm for doing so.
We're merely discussing the possibility of a better Clause, not SPAMming the boards stating we NEED a new clause because we say so. So far we haven't come up with a definitive, logic and better Sleep Clause that could be used intead of the current one and are discussing the problems with the current clause to see if something needs to be cleared, and if so, what exactly.
I would be very happy if a Badged member would participate in our discussions, you don't have that badge for nothing after all.
However, please don't immediatly pull us down because the average postcount in this thread is below 200. Please take us serious for a while, and then explain why we don't need a new Sleep Clause.
I have to disagree with you here - the user of Magic Coat was not trying to put his opponent to sleep. The user of Magic Coat was only trying to prevent his own pokemon from being statused.
I would also say too bad. That's the risk that you take switching Dugtrio into a Pokémon known to use a sleep move+potentially a choice item.
The last thing Sleep Clause is meant to do is create "you lose" situations when the second sleep was out of the control of the player.