QC APPROVED whatever/3
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Slowking [QC 3/3] [GP 1/2]
- Thread starter kokoloko
- Start date
QC APPROVED whatever/3
I would hope that playing experience would trump wild and misleading theorymon, and I was hoping to have this conversation on IRC, but I guess I have to keep posting.
Of course those things 2hko Slowking, they 2hko the entire meta. You're implying that because it can't wall CB Rhyperior or CB Darmanitan, it fails as a physical wall, or at least has no merit over the one pokemon that can (barely) switch into them. That would be akin to me posting calcs for specs p-z or LO raikou and saying "look, it can't wall these pokemon!". You're supposed to have failsafes for these pokemon. That's how teambuilding works.
Again, let me reiterate that spdef slowking is a very mediocre mon in general, and that physically defensive is the only set that has been used with any success since the kyurem metagame. All of the theorymon you can do does not trump that.
Of course those things 2hko Slowking, they 2hko the entire meta. You're implying that because it can't wall CB Rhyperior or CB Darmanitan, it fails as a physical wall, or at least has no merit over the one pokemon that can (barely) switch into them. That would be akin to me posting calcs for specs p-z or LO raikou and saying "look, it can't wall these pokemon!". You're supposed to have failsafes for these pokemon. That's how teambuilding works.
Again, let me reiterate that spdef slowking is a very mediocre mon in general, and that physically defensive is the only set that has been used with any success since the kyurem metagame. All of the theorymon you can do does not trump that.
I've discussed the ev spreads with Snunch on irc, where he was able to discuss the play experience he's had with slowking in greater detail. There's also some information of excellent performance of players on the ladder using full defensive slowking that Snunch doesn't want to divulge on the forum. Because of this, I'd like to back the full defensive spread. I'd recommend the OP get some play experience with it-- or else pester Snunch, notably on irc, into telling you what to write about it (he says just think defensive milotic + regenerator).
OP spread will go into AC
OP spread will go into AC
Or we could actually make 2 sets, since S.Defensive Slowking is a very good pivot that can take a shit load of physical AND special attacks.
Many defensive pokes have 2 sets anyway, one for defensive and one for S.Defensive so i don't see the problem
And Chou Toushio i know that you are telling it to kokoloko, but i have tried 172 S.Def Slowking and it definitely pulled his weight on my team, protecting it from any Kingdra, Mew and many special threats out there, including mono attacking NP Togekiss (with a bit of luck of 'course).
Many defensive pokes have 2 sets anyway, one for defensive and one for S.Defensive so i don't see the problem
And Chou Toushio i know that you are telling it to kokoloko, but i have tried 172 S.Def Slowking and it definitely pulled his weight on my team, protecting it from any Kingdra, Mew and many special threats out there, including mono attacking NP Togekiss (with a bit of luck of 'course).
I'm no UU expert by any means, but from testing out both sets on the ladder I appreciated the specially defense set to be able to paralyze a myriad of special sweepers that the other set couldn't handle, especially Nasty Plot Togekiss and Mew, along with taking a Chandelurw shadow call however the special mixed bulk Snunch's set provides is more fit to its typing and the UU meta like taking Band Heracross Close Combats much better.
All right, I'm going to build a stall team for once in my life and test both variants, and I'll also connect with Snunch and share my impressions. Other QC input would also be super valuable on this.
Edit: Well, this experience has taught me a few things. First, I'm terrible at playing stall and will never do so again. Second, Slowking is terrible at walling physical attackers. Maybe it's because I played poorly, but I seriously could not switch Slowking into anything that I would have switched Slowbro into. For example, I saw an Arcanine and I thought "hey this would be a good thing to switch this slowking into". Except it wasn't, because Flare Blitz -> Wild Charge KOs, even with max defense. I saw a Flygon and thought "Slowking can handle this with max defense, right?" Nope. Saw a Victini, it 2hko'd with V-Create. Saw a Kingdra and guess what? It raped me me on the switch with Draco Meteor on the switch for 80% damage. You might have said "well you should have gone to snorlax" but the point is that I didn't know it was a specs kingdra until it destroyed slowking, and if I had gone to Snorlax and it was DD, I would have lost a Pokemon. And if this analysis is going to sell Slowking as a counter to Kingdra, it probably shouldn't lose outright to its two most common sets. When someone is building a team, and looking for a Kingdra counter, are you really going to tell them that they're already supposed to have a failsafe for Kingdra in addition to Slowking and "that's how teambuilding works"?
Saying "well yeah obviously it can't cover everything" is a gross strawman - my point is that it can't cover the shit it's meant to cover. It can't actually handle strong physical attacks because its physical defense sucks, and with no investment it can't handle strong special attacks either. Can it beat physical fire types? No, Arcanine 2hkos with Flare Blitz into Wild Charge and Darm and Vic 2hko with just their STABs. Can it beat special fire types? No, Specs Chandelure 2hkos with Fire Blast, Victini 2hkos with Grass Knot, Sunnybeam Arcanine 2hkos, Magmortar 2hkos with Fire Blast -> Thunderbolt (for what that's worth). Can it beat offensive water types? LO Agility Empoleon 2hkos with Grass Knot, +1 Suicune 2hkos with HP Electric (at least you can phaze it), and I already covered Kingdra adequately. Incidentally, these are all things I lost to on the ladder. What's the point of running a bulky water if it can't handle the things that bulky waters are meant to handle on either side of the spectrum?
Now, to physically defensive Slowking's credit, it can switch into non-CB Swampert's Earthquake without getting 2hko'd, and it avoids an ohko from LO Sharpedo's Crunch most of the time, and that's pretty nice. It also has an easier time with Cobalion that run X-Scissor (both sets beat Stone Edge variants) and can take 2 Close Combats from CB Heracross. This is nice, but it's not its job, because Slowbro exists. Why would anyone use Slowking if not for its specially-defensive capabilities? Why run a defensive set that's substantially worse than Slowbro at walling physical hits and only slightly better at walling special ones, when you could run a set that carves out a niche that Slowking is actually good at? I don't think we should be putting up an analysis that essentially treats Slowking like an inferior variant of Slowbro, which is exactly what a physically defensive set would do. As I mentioned earlier, you're essentially wasting Slowking's special defense, since you really cannot switch Slowking into any special attacker that you wouldn't switch Slowbro into. This was my experience on the ladder, anyway.
For the record, my team was Roserade / Slowking / Blastoise / Nidoqueen / Chandelure / Snorlax. I thought it was a decent team with a number of physical walls that covered Slowking's inadequacies on the physical side and a couple of special walls that covered its inadequacies on the special side. I'll freely admit that I don't know much about stall, and I could have horribly bungled the playstyle and come to the conclusions I did. If that's the case, I'll wait for other QC input. But if the physically defensive set is approved, please remove all mention of this being a kingdra counter - because it isn't.
Edit: Well, this experience has taught me a few things. First, I'm terrible at playing stall and will never do so again. Second, Slowking is terrible at walling physical attackers. Maybe it's because I played poorly, but I seriously could not switch Slowking into anything that I would have switched Slowbro into. For example, I saw an Arcanine and I thought "hey this would be a good thing to switch this slowking into". Except it wasn't, because Flare Blitz -> Wild Charge KOs, even with max defense. I saw a Flygon and thought "Slowking can handle this with max defense, right?" Nope. Saw a Victini, it 2hko'd with V-Create. Saw a Kingdra and guess what? It raped me me on the switch with Draco Meteor on the switch for 80% damage. You might have said "well you should have gone to snorlax" but the point is that I didn't know it was a specs kingdra until it destroyed slowking, and if I had gone to Snorlax and it was DD, I would have lost a Pokemon. And if this analysis is going to sell Slowking as a counter to Kingdra, it probably shouldn't lose outright to its two most common sets. When someone is building a team, and looking for a Kingdra counter, are you really going to tell them that they're already supposed to have a failsafe for Kingdra in addition to Slowking and "that's how teambuilding works"?
Saying "well yeah obviously it can't cover everything" is a gross strawman - my point is that it can't cover the shit it's meant to cover. It can't actually handle strong physical attacks because its physical defense sucks, and with no investment it can't handle strong special attacks either. Can it beat physical fire types? No, Arcanine 2hkos with Flare Blitz into Wild Charge and Darm and Vic 2hko with just their STABs. Can it beat special fire types? No, Specs Chandelure 2hkos with Fire Blast, Victini 2hkos with Grass Knot, Sunnybeam Arcanine 2hkos, Magmortar 2hkos with Fire Blast -> Thunderbolt (for what that's worth). Can it beat offensive water types? LO Agility Empoleon 2hkos with Grass Knot, +1 Suicune 2hkos with HP Electric (at least you can phaze it), and I already covered Kingdra adequately. Incidentally, these are all things I lost to on the ladder. What's the point of running a bulky water if it can't handle the things that bulky waters are meant to handle on either side of the spectrum?
Now, to physically defensive Slowking's credit, it can switch into non-CB Swampert's Earthquake without getting 2hko'd, and it avoids an ohko from LO Sharpedo's Crunch most of the time, and that's pretty nice. It also has an easier time with Cobalion that run X-Scissor (both sets beat Stone Edge variants) and can take 2 Close Combats from CB Heracross. This is nice, but it's not its job, because Slowbro exists. Why would anyone use Slowking if not for its specially-defensive capabilities? Why run a defensive set that's substantially worse than Slowbro at walling physical hits and only slightly better at walling special ones, when you could run a set that carves out a niche that Slowking is actually good at? I don't think we should be putting up an analysis that essentially treats Slowking like an inferior variant of Slowbro, which is exactly what a physically defensive set would do. As I mentioned earlier, you're essentially wasting Slowking's special defense, since you really cannot switch Slowking into any special attacker that you wouldn't switch Slowbro into. This was my experience on the ladder, anyway.
For the record, my team was Roserade / Slowking / Blastoise / Nidoqueen / Chandelure / Snorlax. I thought it was a decent team with a number of physical walls that covered Slowking's inadequacies on the physical side and a couple of special walls that covered its inadequacies on the special side. I'll freely admit that I don't know much about stall, and I could have horribly bungled the playstyle and come to the conclusions I did. If that's the case, I'll wait for other QC input. But if the physically defensive set is approved, please remove all mention of this being a kingdra counter - because it isn't.
@Snunch and Chou: I don't get why you keep assuming I'm theorymonning here... I've used both a physically defensive spread and the spread I originally pitched in the OP; and every time I used the full Defense spread I kept thinking to myself "why am I not using Slowbro?"
The fact is, I have used both. The physically defensive spread is just an inferior Slowbro with Dragon Tail (which while nice, is not anywhere near enough to justify the huge loss in defensive ability).
The fact is, I have used both. The physically defensive spread is just an inferior Slowbro with Dragon Tail (which while nice, is not anywhere near enough to justify the huge loss in defensive ability).
FlareBlitz said:
Because you don't explicitly state choice band, I'd just like to make clear that Victini never 2hkos with v-create unless adamant choice band, and flygon never 2hkos without choice band. What really struck me about the above is that this could be directly copied and pasted into a milotic thread. Like I said, not being able to handle the absolute strongest pokemon in the tier =/= failing as a physical wall.
First of all, rain dance and choice specs are not its two most common sets, and Slowking will beat rain dance most of the time in practice. Second, you can abuse regenerator to get slowking healthy again with some smart switching, and now that you know Kingdra's set, it's easier to play around. While it's not perfect, don't act like Slowking has no use at all vs specs kingdra. Also, of course you're supposed to have a Kingdra failsafe. It's the most versatile pokemon in the tier.
The same stuff about Milotic and specifying choice band that I mentioned above. As for Empoleon and Suicune, you can twave, wait for a para, then phaze and regen the lost health. It wins one-on-one.
Because specially defensive slowking is bad. Take the rambling about not being able to switch into CB Victini and just remove the CB, and water is such a terrible specially defensive type. C&C policy is to put up the best set for an analysis, and unless you are trying to argue that Slowking literally has no niche over Slowbro (which is absurd), the best set is defensive.
I think you chose the wrong kind of team to test Slowking with, because nothing you listed can really take advantage of Slowking's paralysis support (aside from maybe Chandelure), and you seem to have made it a redundant part of your team by adding blastoise / nidoqueen / snorlax. If you'd like I can send my team your way, which is a balanced paralysis abuse team, and you can tell me how much better slowbro would be on it.
I think the problem here is that you're treating Slowking like it is Slowbro. You keep bringing up phrases like "should be able to switch into" or "expect it to switch into", but without scouting with team preview you can't expect it to switch into those pokemon. If you see something like a Flygon / Victini combo in team preview, Slowking won't be able to switch into one of those pokemon and it will wall the other. It is up to you to find out which; they're clearly trying to wallbreak, you must preserve that wall. I keep bringing up Milotic because pretty much all of your criticisms can be translated to Milotic, with its "poor" defense. You have to play the same way when you have Milotic, don't just expect something with "slow" in its name to be invincible.
I will just mention that balanced Slowking is not good on a stall team simply because stall teams are more about having specialized ways to deal with everything. Slowking is a good paralysis-spreading anchor that can phaze out nasty stuff for offense teams and then switch around to heal up.
alright... can we get some sort of consensus on this...? I can't believe this thread has been sitting here so long based just on a disagreement about EV spread.
I thought my last post made it apparent, but the parties most intent on this (Snunch and Koko (/flareblitz?)) should meet on irc to come to some conclusion already.
I thought my last post made it apparent, but the parties most intent on this (Snunch and Koko (/flareblitz?)) should meet on irc to come to some conclusion already.
Who exactly have you been talking to?
I would offer to write up two separate sets, but then we'd end up arguing about which set should be listed first lol
Also, I recently tried physically defensive Slowking again and ended up switching back to Slowbro after ~12 games.
Porygon2 / Zapdos / Raikou / Bronzong / Slowbro / Cobalion was the team. I switched to Slowking for a little after noticing how weak the team was to special Water-types, but then switched right back to Slowbro when Slowking got demolished by LO Darmanitan /=
Your argument is that "specially defensive Slowking will require similar pokemon to piggyback it since it can't beat certain threats" but the that argument applies to physically defensive Slowking as well.
So yeah, reassigning this won't really fix the issue at hand.
I would offer to write up two separate sets, but then we'd end up arguing about which set should be listed first lol
Also, I recently tried physically defensive Slowking again and ended up switching back to Slowbro after ~12 games.
Porygon2 / Zapdos / Raikou / Bronzong / Slowbro / Cobalion was the team. I switched to Slowking for a little after noticing how weak the team was to special Water-types, but then switched right back to Slowbro when Slowking got demolished by LO Darmanitan /=
Your argument is that "specially defensive Slowking will require similar pokemon to piggyback it since it can't beat certain threats" but the that argument applies to physically defensive Slowking as well.
So yeah, reassigning this won't really fix the issue at hand.
I have been on IRC sporadically this past week, but admittedly not for long. Regardless, though, I don't see why shooting me a PM or even just carrying on a discussion here (where others can weigh in) would be a bad thing. I do apologize for the delay, though.
I am not denying Snunch's experience or skill, I am simply unable to see why gaining 60 points of SpD makes up for losing 91 points of defense, Dragon Tail or no. They don't affect any noticeable KOs - as the calcs show, special kingdra, Nidoking, NP mew, and every other special attacker I would expect to counter all beat Slowking just by boosting or hitting it with their normal STAB move. That's just kind of bad.
I want to address the numerous Milotic comparisons again - Milotic is used as a physical wall because there doesn't exist another pure bulky water type with 95/125/79 defenses that has access to instant healing, haze, and decent offenses. If there were, I assure you that Milotic would only be useful for its special defensiveness. Likewise with Blastoise. Bulky waters are generally EV'd physically because they're expected to take neutral physical hits, as Snunch mentions. And that's fine, except Slowbro takes neutral and SE physical hits much better than Slowbro does. Slowking cannot compete with that. For every calc where physically defensive Slowking does something cool, like taking a Sharpedo Crunch, SpD Slowking can do something cool, like taking a Specskou Thunderbolt.
Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that Slowbro is terrible at walling certain threats where Slowking isn't. Like, say, Kingdra. Slowking can't "play around" Kingdra unless you're willing to let the rest of your team take boosted Dragon Pulses / Hydro Pumps (if you are, why are you even using slowking). Oh, and I have no idea where "rain dance and choice specs are not its two most common sets" came from, because....yes, they are.
| Kingdra |
| Item | 46.6 | Choice Specs |
| Item | 36.5 | Life Orb |
| Move | 80.0 | Dragon Pulse |
That's from the 1337 stats. Special LO and Specs are the most common sets in the normal stats too.
SpD Slowking has an absolutely invaluable niche in being one of the very few Pokemon that can safely switch into RD Kingdra while not getting utterly raped or set up on by DD Kingdra. Based on my metagame experience, that would be far more valuable to me that turning it into a mediocre physical wall that cannot beat special kingdra at all (or any moderately powerful special attacker for that matter). Slowking's niche is its ability to cripple powerful coverage-abusing special attackers while also being able to handle some physical attackers.
One final thing to drive home my point. 252 HP /252 Def+ Slowking reaches 394 HP / 284 Def / 256 SpD. 252 HP / 16 Def+ / 240 SpD Slowbro reaches 394 HP / 286 Def / 256 SpD. If you're using Slowking for "paralysis abuse", you might as well just Slowbro, because it reaches slightly better stats. Granted, it doesn't have Dragon Tail, but I for one don't think that Dragon Tail is valuable enough to write an otherwise entirely outclassed set. That might be okay for a Pokemon that actually doesn't have other niches, but Slowking certainly does.
I am not denying Snunch's experience or skill, I am simply unable to see why gaining 60 points of SpD makes up for losing 91 points of defense, Dragon Tail or no. They don't affect any noticeable KOs - as the calcs show, special kingdra, Nidoking, NP mew, and every other special attacker I would expect to counter all beat Slowking just by boosting or hitting it with their normal STAB move. That's just kind of bad.
I want to address the numerous Milotic comparisons again - Milotic is used as a physical wall because there doesn't exist another pure bulky water type with 95/125/79 defenses that has access to instant healing, haze, and decent offenses. If there were, I assure you that Milotic would only be useful for its special defensiveness. Likewise with Blastoise. Bulky waters are generally EV'd physically because they're expected to take neutral physical hits, as Snunch mentions. And that's fine, except Slowbro takes neutral and SE physical hits much better than Slowbro does. Slowking cannot compete with that. For every calc where physically defensive Slowking does something cool, like taking a Sharpedo Crunch, SpD Slowking can do something cool, like taking a Specskou Thunderbolt.
Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that Slowbro is terrible at walling certain threats where Slowking isn't. Like, say, Kingdra. Slowking can't "play around" Kingdra unless you're willing to let the rest of your team take boosted Dragon Pulses / Hydro Pumps (if you are, why are you even using slowking). Oh, and I have no idea where "rain dance and choice specs are not its two most common sets" came from, because....yes, they are.
| Kingdra |
| Item | 46.6 | Choice Specs |
| Item | 36.5 | Life Orb |
| Move | 80.0 | Dragon Pulse |
That's from the 1337 stats. Special LO and Specs are the most common sets in the normal stats too.
SpD Slowking has an absolutely invaluable niche in being one of the very few Pokemon that can safely switch into RD Kingdra while not getting utterly raped or set up on by DD Kingdra. Based on my metagame experience, that would be far more valuable to me that turning it into a mediocre physical wall that cannot beat special kingdra at all (or any moderately powerful special attacker for that matter). Slowking's niche is its ability to cripple powerful coverage-abusing special attackers while also being able to handle some physical attackers.
One final thing to drive home my point. 252 HP /252 Def+ Slowking reaches 394 HP / 284 Def / 256 SpD. 252 HP / 16 Def+ / 240 SpD Slowbro reaches 394 HP / 286 Def / 256 SpD. If you're using Slowking for "paralysis abuse", you might as well just Slowbro, because it reaches slightly better stats. Granted, it doesn't have Dragon Tail, but I for one don't think that Dragon Tail is valuable enough to write an otherwise entirely outclassed set. That might be okay for a Pokemon that actually doesn't have other niches, but Slowking certainly does.
I've been playing with Snunch's team sporadically. I don't want to come to any conclusions based on how little I've played, especially since it's a playstyle I am not used to. I will give some preliminary impressions, however. Kokoloko, if you'd like to post some logs using your own Slowking team, I think it would be helpful.
I have seen some merit to physical defense in the testing so far - Cobalion's +2 X-Scissor failing to ohko was quite nice. That said, I hope it's not revealing too much of Snunch's team to say that I have been having immense trouble with Specs Kingdra, Nidoking, and Specs Chandy, threats that a more SpD-oriented Slowking could possibly play around. Then again, without physical defensive, I am not sure how many other holes would open up.
I will do more testing. In the meantime, if this analysis is being much too delayed, other QC members can offer input.
I have seen some merit to physical defense in the testing so far - Cobalion's +2 X-Scissor failing to ohko was quite nice. That said, I hope it's not revealing too much of Snunch's team to say that I have been having immense trouble with Specs Kingdra, Nidoking, and Specs Chandy, threats that a more SpD-oriented Slowking could possibly play around. Then again, without physical defensive, I am not sure how many other holes would open up.
I will do more testing. In the meantime, if this analysis is being much too delayed, other QC members can offer input.
Has NastyRoom Slowking been considered? Knowing that it's good in RU I ran the Honkcalculator and saw that it 2HKOs most of the metagame, excepting bulky waters (3HKOd), umbreon (always wins), cress (wins if toxic), snorlax (wins if resttalk or CB), dusclops (wins) and mew (loses). Checking the calcs further it also appears to pretty much beat most of standard offense on its own, excepting Raikou and Zapdos, and also Kingdra. Seems like it could be worthy of a set.
(Escavalier will also win, and Registeel will not be 2HKOd, forgot to discount Fire Blast)
(Escavalier will also win, and Registeel will not be 2HKOd, forgot to discount Fire Blast)
To expand on this, in my playtesting I found that Slowking counters entirely different Pokemon based on EV spread, so we felt it was appropriate to have two sets.