Done SM Jumbao

[Jordy]

was told to post this here by snake

The past few months I've been quite vocal about my opinion on the current state of the SM CAP metagame. At large I have seen that building is very same-ish and quite dull, and many seem to agree that Jumbao, more specifically offensive Jumbao, is the Pokemon driving this issue.

I am making this thread to discuss a couple topics:

• Does anything need to happen to SM CAP?
• Is Jumbao at all an issue? What about anything else in the meta, if at all?
• Should nerfs in SM be allowed, or would we have to ban Jumbao like other oldgens have done in the past if it were deemed to be an issue?

Once these things are figured out, we could probably start talking about more concrete things.

Tagging some users because I'd love to hear their input, ofcourse I would encourage anyone else to respond as well.

SHSP Lasen Dj Breloominati♬ Jho pannuracotta quziel Avery

 

[dex]

I've been pretty vocal in the past that SM CAP is an fairly boring tier to play in. I think there are essentially 4 mons that rule the roost: Tornadus-T, Equilibra, Toxapex, and Jumbao. These mons are incredibly difficult to justify not using on any balance or bulky offense team. This gives builders essentially 2 slots to work with, often taken up by ReuniTar on bulkier builds or WeavZam on offensive builds. I do agree that Jumbao is most likely the root of this issue. Its gross ability to inhabit any number of roles on a team makes it the most centralizing force in the metagame. Offensive sets can power their way through any non-AV Tornadus-T. Wish sets can enable Libra to a ridiculous degree and makes balance teams incredibly difficult to punish. Decreasing this splashability would help in making the meta more fluid and interesting, and I do agree that doing something about offensive Jumbao is the way to go. If I had to name a specific part of offensive Bao that I found to be particularly oppressive, it would be Flame Burst; however, others are more familiar with this meta than I am, and there could be other nerfs that would do the job better.

On the matter of whether or not SM nerfs should be allowed, I think they should as long as they do not impact SS in too big a way. This makes nerfs quite limited, and is part of the reason I am suggesting the removal of Flame Burst to begin with, but I think it makes the most sense that way. If impacting SS turns out to not be a concern, I think taking away both Drought and Flame Burst would be the absolute best course of action.

 

[Jho]

I would also be in favour of a nerf to Jumbao, if it has to be banned then its not worth it as the tier isn't going to get enough development from this point for such a massive change.

My personal preference would be to let Jumbao lose a few pounds so Celesteela actually checks it, and also losing Flame Burst. While replaceable with HP Fire, losing Flame Burst means Bao cant run HP Ground + Fire coverage on the same set and makes it a lot more inconsistent vs Heatran. Losing Flame Burst in SM also wouldn't affect any continuity since it already lost it in the generational shift.

This is imo the best way to get SM CAP out of the basically solved format it is without changing up too much to the point where it would be an entirely different metagame.

Good Thread

 

[pannu]

i was working on a post detailing my opinion on current sm cap after the vr nom but ill just go over my bao opinions here instead.

At large I have seen that building is very same-ish and quite dull

I unfortunately agree with this, while SM cap is a very fun tier to play it is so incredibly boring to build. I think that this isn't because of Jumbao but because of what Jumbao does to the builder; forcing one of Toxapex or Tornadus on every team results in alot of sameish builds IMO, which lead to a very RPS-esque tier in certain scenarios.

Does anything need to happen to SM CAP?

I would like to see a Jumbao nerf, yes. I do think that a very small one, such as losing a move or a small stat drop works, i even like the weight drop idea proposed by Jho as it makes steela an actual counter to it.

Is Jumbao at all an issue? What about anything else in the meta, if at all?

I think that itd be more appropriate to call Jumbao the root of the tiers problems, having to run a Tornadus, Toxapex, or Chansey on every team can lead to builds which are easy to take advantage off, my two cents are that Reuniclus or Mega Alakazam would both be severely worse in the tier if every single team in this tier didn't have a Toxapex you could freely switch into

Should nerfs in SM be allowed, or would we have to ban Jumbao like other oldgens have done in the past if it were deemed to be an issue?

They should be allowed, and if its not im in favour of keeping Jumbao rather than banning it; in many ways bao is a glue that keeps the tier together as well.

Tl;dr: Nerf Bao, its the core of all the tiers problems, i think that either losing Flame Burst, Some weight, or a few points in speed or special attack work well.

 

[Lasen]

I don't wanna dwell too deep into this but I do enjoy playing SM CAP a bit too much to let this go without giving a response, no matter how "half-assed" it may read. So I'll just dump my thoughts ala quziel and skip on details.

I am against nerfing Jumbao in a substancial way. It gets fatter so Celesteela checks it? Fine. It loses Flame Burst? I don't like this idea. SM CAP is not a metagame plagued by threat overload and absolutely disgusting cheese strategies like some lower tiers or old gen CAPs have had in the past. I think it's actually a super balanced metagame where the better player should, most of the time, win. Jumbao ties it all together quite nicely, by providing a bulky body with strong but not unbeatable STABs. I don't think its coverage is too overwhelming, either. Between one of Toxapex and Tornadus-T one can often check it very consistenty (Fairium Z don't approach). I also think its set can be telegraphed rather easily so it's not an issue of it hitting you with a move or combination you never could have seen coming.
I don't think that teams becoming very same-y is a valid excuse to nerf a Pokemon that is S Rank but doesn't truly wrap the metagame around it. For heaven's sake, we're using other S ranks who are good both in and out of the vacuum that CAP provides, not some ungodly checks like Mega Kangaskhan or Landorus-I required. Solved metagame ≠ bad metagame. Start running more hazard stack Alakazam or weather, see if that works.

 

[SHSP]

• Should nerfs in SM be allowed, or would we have to ban Jumbao like other oldgens have done in the past if it were deemed to be an issue?

My stance on SM as a whole is pretty well known by now- I think it's much more in line with Jordy's interpretation among others, and I do think that at its core this is thanks to the strength of Jumbao. That's kind of secondary to this thread, though, if you ask me- the more important thing here is this question as it's a pretty substantial break from existing policy and should be the center of debate. Bao, flat out, is not banworthy. In addition to that, from a purely logistical standpoint, banning Bao would probably hurt SM CAP very hard if not kill it totally- It's already an old gen that lacks resources compared to a current gen, and taking that action towards Bao basically hits a big reset button on the metagame as we know it. This is only exacerbated by the fact that SM in general is not the worlds most balanced generation, and a drastic change to SM is going to require probably more tiering ability than we have means to do well. A nerf is probably the best way to approach this- but if we should, and how we should, is a very big question.

I think we can look at past gen nerfs ONLY if they apply consistently going forward. This addresses what is my personal biggest issue of what old gen CAP adjustments would be- as I mentioned in the other thread re: reverting nerfs- intra-gen transitivity. If a mon is too strong for Gen 7, and it loses something in Gen 7, it should lose it in Gen 8 and forward. This is admittedly a bit bold even as I write this, as impacting what could effectively be wholly different mons between generations (especially with the assumption going forward that moves are going to snap in and out of games), but I struggle to think of a better way to go about this without having situations where, for example, Jumb has Drought in Gen 8 but not in Gen 7, that drie a great deal of confusion and difficulty going between generations. I also may be missing a bit here, as I struggle to think of situations where mons that are just too strong in an old gen do not continue to be that strong in a later gen without a significant mechanics change (a la Crucibelle suddenly tanking in power because Mega Cruci doesn't exist, or as a hypothetical if an ability like Levitate fundamentally changed and nerfed Equilibra in a later gen). I'm very curious to hear other thoughts on this, if anyone has them to share.

 

[Avery]

I'm not in a great spot to reply at the moment but I feel somewhat obligated to, so this will be brief

My take on the current state of SM CAP is mostly shared by Jordy in that Jumbao is the reason the metagame feels stale. I don't have a ton to add that hasn't already been stated, as pannu, Jordy, and I share similar outlooks on how to properly balance Bao. Admittedly I am not in tune with CAP policy as I do not contribute to the CAP process, though I do want to put it out there that I don't see a reason why a nerf to an oldgen CAP shouldn't be allowed. If it's agreed that said nerf would result in a more balanced metagame, it seems far more preferable to an outright ban. Like SHSP said, banning Bao would be detrimental to a tier with a far smaller playerbase and less resources as compared to SS CAP. I also agree that If a nerf were to occur, it is only logical that it should also apply to all generations that succeed the nerf. For what its worth, I do agree that Bao losing Flame Burst is ideal, though I would not be opposed to it losing a few points in Spatk as well.

 

[spoo]

Hello, I do not play SM that much but I think this thread is important and absolutely needs to be resolved before CAPPL begins.

The thread appears overwhelmingly in favor of nerfing Jumbao:

I do agree that Jumbao is most likely the root of this issue ... On the matter of whether or not SM nerfs should be allowed, I think they should as long as they do not impact SS in too big a way.

I would also be in favour of a nerf to Jumbao, if it has to be banned then its not worth it as the tier isn't going to get enough development from this point for such a massive change.

Tl;dr: Nerf Bao, its the core of all the tiers problems, i think that either losing Flame Burst, Some weight, or a few points in speed or special attack work well.

A nerf is probably the best way to approach this- but if we should, and how we should, is a very big question. I think we can look at past gen nerfs ONLY if they apply consistently going forward.

My take on the current state of SM CAP is mostly shared by Jordy in that Jumbao is the reason the metagame feels stale ... If it's agreed that said nerf would result in a more balanced metagame, it seems far more preferable to an outright ban.

It's also worth nothing that the remaining poster that I did not quote, Lasen, is also fine with nerfing Jumbao in theory (but wants to approach it perhaps differently than others in the thread).

Now that we know that Jumbao should be nerfed, It now seems like it's just a matter of logistics. This is what I will propose:
1) Jumbao should be nerfed internally via the SM Council. This is not only the easiest method and cuts directly past the extra months it would probably take to do it in-thread, but also makes the most sense from a metagame perspective.
2) Jumbao should not receive a nerf that meaningfully affects its SS version. Others in this thread have expressed this opinion as well. Something like an ability removal or stat nerf feels like it should be off the table.

That is all, thank you for your time.

 

[Rabia]

Targeting its Fire-type coverage or sun-related niche makes the most sense to me; Flame Burst literally got snapped between generations, and Jumbao is always Trace in SS anyway. I think weight nerfing is cool too so the Celesteela matchup is not as funny as it currently is, and that sort of thing wouldn't be relevant in SS ether.

 

[Jordy]

who will organize this? should the vr council do it?

 

[spoo]

didn’t realize when I made that post that there is no standing SM meta council, so imo the viability council is totally fine to get the job done - everyone there should be educated/invested enough in the tier to carry out the nerf, regardless of the group’s actual purpose. alternatively a proper meta council could be assembled to deal with this nerf (and any future tiering/nerfs/buffs in SM if they come up). but either way I think conducting the actual nerf out of PRC will be the most efficient course of action because things tend to stall in this forum

as for personal thoughts on the nerf- again, not a SM player so take this with a grain of salt, but rabia is right that removing weight/flame burst will have essentially 0 effect in SS which makes them promising options to me.

I think I also overstated when I said that ability removals should be off the table, because axing drought in SM would effectively not change SS bao’s viability at all; that said, it’s still a more “major” change, and I think should be approached with more scrutiny as a result- ie, would it be truly necessary, or are there other good routes? how much (if at all) would it undermine bao’s process/concept? do we only want to avoid impacting how bao actually plays in SS or should we also avoid impacting how it exists as a whole product? should we care about bao’s potential future in gen 9 at all? i don’t have answers to these questions myself but they seem like some good things to keep in mind if we pursue removing drought

 

[spoo]

Alright SMers I come bearing news

The SM VR council had been discussing what to do about Jumbao for a little while, and I jumped in to help structure discussion / push the process forward as it had gotten hung up a bit. Do note that I'm not really a factor in this decision, more so just presenting what the SM council has agreed to do right now.

After running through what options the council wanted to work with, discussing the pros and cons of each, etc, we took a vote on what (if anything) to remove. The initial slate was (-Drought, -Flame Burst, -400kg, No Nerf), and the council voted to first remove weight from Jumbao so that Celesteela can effectively threaten it (this leaves Jumbao at 200kg, meaning Heavy Slam is 100 BP). The next slate was (-Drought, -Flame Burst, No Additional Nerfs); -Drought won, and afterwards Flame Burst was voted to be kept.

This led the final nerf package to be: Set weight to 200kg and Remove Drought

I will also reiterate here the same thing I said in the Crucibelle thread. I don't believe the SM council has the power to conduct this nerf unilaterally, so this is us passing it off to PRC to get the final stamp of approval/disapproval. If you have a reasonable objection to this SM nerf, now is the time to share it.

The main thing I expect to be contended is the decision to remove Drought. This obviously has implications for Jumbao in SS, as well as its original concept, so opinions on how it should be implemented – or if it should be allowed at all – are appreciated. Tagging members of the SM council SHSP Jordy pannuracotta Dj Breloominati♬ Lasen if you have thoughts on this/want to elaborate on your vote's reasoning.

 

[Zetalz]

Weight nerf is fine, no complaints there.

Spoo explained it to me on discord the general reasoning of -Drought > -Flame Burst in that removing burst doesn't meaningfully accomplish anything (since it can just run HP Fire/Focus Blast > HP Ground/Flame Burst) except increase inconsistency by having to rely on Focus Blast. The problem I have with this is that removing Drought pretty much kills Jumb's entire concept. It was supposed to be a mon that supports both Sand and Sun, it didn't really do it for Sand but it at least still had it's Sun identity. Removing Drought would kill the last vestige of it's concept it has remaining for it, and even if it's an ideal nerf it really doesn't sit right with me.

A quick and dirty alternative I thought of on the spot would be something like -Flame Burst + -Focus Blast. This would force Bao to pick between it's Hidden Power and wouldn't impact SS Jumb, as we can simply say it did not learn Focus Blast until SS.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

- Set weight to 200kg: I don't see how anybody could make a reasonable complaint with this part.

- Remove Drought: This on the other hand I object to. My biggest gripe with this is that it just doesn't look good from a process perspective at all. I think that with buffs and nerfs, one thing we should be doing is trying to preserve the concept of the mon whenever possible. It's incredibly bad optics for us to be abandoning salvageable concepts when there are routes we can take that keep them in tact. While there is a an argument to make that Jumbao doesn't do a very good job at accomplishing its concept in the first place, I don't think it's a very good idea to make that situation even worse than it already is.

 

[Rabia]

An alternative nerf I'm proposing is along with the weight nerf, consider -Flame Burst and -Hidden Power. While I understand that removing Hidden Power isn't going to set well with everybody because of its status as a universal TM in this generation, we already have precedent for doing this in the past with removing Toxic from Equilibra, and removing Hidden Power doesn't affect how Jumbao functions in SS in the slightest.

libra precedent existed from magearna not getting toxic; this would not be the same at all

 

[pannu]

-Hidden Power.

bro what

 

[Wulfanator]

I will echo Zetalz commentary regarding -Drought (as I was already writing the exact same thing) since this decision effectively strips Bao of its concept. When there is consideration for a mon's concept during the buff process, I feel the same regard should be taken when it comes to the nerf process. This also sets a poor precedent for the project by diminishing the importance of our concepts. Between movepool tweaks, stat adjustments, and a generation where Pokemon can be IV locked out of hidden powers, there is an alternative solution to this problem that doesn't involve gutting the mon of its concept.

 

[dex]

I don't get the concern over removing Drought killing Jumbao's concept. The mon doesn't support sun in SM. It doesn't support sun in SS. Never mind that sun as a playstyle is pretty much unviable in SM, Jumbao never supported the weather. It uses sun selfishly. It is even commonly paired with Mega Tyranitar, which completely removes its sun. The only interaction I can think of is Heatran getting its Magma Storm boosted in sun. That's it. There's no concept killing here, Jumbao doesn't currently support sun as a weather. Removing Drought is absolutely the best option. I don't like the idea of having a less-than-ideal nerf due to reasoning that is unrelated to the metagame.

 

[Jordy]

I like this idea from SHSP and figured it should be shared:

Also u know what to do Zephyri.

 

[Zephyri]

Also u know what to do Zephyri.

jhofflerpilled

 

[quziel]

Weight Reduction, and either -Drought or Zeta's proposal make most sense. I'm fine with either. Personally I think Zeta's proposal is a tad easier to swing w.r.t. precedent (changing moves is always preferable to changing abilities), but I'll yield to the SM council whichever decision they want to make.

 

[Mova]

I like the idea of swapping Drought and Overcoat's spots and locking the former in Gen 7. It wouldn't hurt matters, as Drought would only exist by technicality like Flame Body Heatran.

 

[spoo]

I brought some of this discussion to the SM council earlier today and thought I'd share how the discussion went:

logs

cg — Today at 2:01 PM
been neglecting this recently as ive had hands full w/ other stuff
but for anyone who's kept up with the PRC thread
how do you feel about the proposal to remove flame burst and focus blast instead of drought?
seems like a less "dramatic" option than drought but i can't really speak to whether it would have the desired effect or not
SHSP — Today at 2:02 PM
ill be honest im more pissed off people are suggesting it than anything because that impacts SS and forward way more
lol
cg — Today at 2:04 PM
yeah focus blast is q relevant to SS bao
also i'm not sure if i ever clarified this
but wrt removing drought/focus blast- were y'all assuming that SS would also have it removed removed, or were we assuming that there would just be a discrepancy between gens?
SHSP — Today at 2:05 PM
as far as my interpretation is
if one gen loses it there's gotta be a v good reason to bring it back
that's what my hangup over drought in practice is
Lasen — Today at 2:06 PM
Adding Focus Blast in SS feels weird as fuck; "removing" Drought ala FB Tran is much more doable and plausible
I still don't think removing it is necessary fwiw
Jordy — Today at 2:07 PM
shsps idea is way better
than flame burst + fblast lol
Lasen — Today at 2:07 PM
But idt cutting Blast + fburst
Is ever a viable solution
SHSP — Today at 2:08 PM
people are getting mad that we're doing a relatively heavy handed proposal in -drought so they are using a sledgehammer to do a heavier handed one in -focus
cg — Today at 2:09 PM
yeah
i can understand the motivation to preserve its concept and all
but i think dex was spot on
in that drought bao never really fulfilled its concept to begin with
Jordy — Today at 2:09 PM
bao in sm has like nothing directly to do
w its concept
and w smth like how tran didnt have flame body in sm but it does in ss
SHSP — Today at 2:09 PM
i get why people are mad ab it
Jordy — Today at 2:09 PM
u can do for bao too
SHSP — Today at 2:10 PM
like I do genuinely get that bit
Jordy — Today at 2:10 PM
and maybe try to cope w the idea that it does its concept at all
SHSP — Today at 2:10 PM
it's a big change and does tie into its og design process
and what not
cg — Today at 2:11 PM
seems like ya'll are in consensus
i'll wait and see if pannu/spitfire have something to add
and then push the thread along w this
Spitfire — Today at 3:13 PM
I am not that big fan of drought removal in the first place, but i can live w it since it won't affect cg(there will always be a equally viable if not better sun setter)
But removing fb is a no no for reasons already said above
Shouldn't even entertain that thought

The preferred route is still to make Drought an inaccessible HA in gen 7. I'll gauge how further discussion goes and move the proposal to moderator voting when I feel the thread has run its course, hopefully some time next week, just so this doesn't stall longer than necessary.

 

[spoo]

Giving this 48 hours before taking the council's proposal to mod discussion/voting

 

[Voltage]

Just following up, I was wondering if any action was ever taken from the council or if the plan is to wait until CAPPL is over.

Not that my opinion has a ton of sway in this matter, but I am all for the movement to have Drought be an in accessible HA in Gen 7. It still allows Bao to have Drought in Gen 8 if you want to use that for whatever reason, while still adhering to the original spirit of the concept (which personally I don't think we should nerf things that go directly against concept and we should maintain the spirit of a CAP's concept the best we can, but that's just me) which is good. Coupled with the change in weight and the potential removal of some critical coverage, I look forward to seeing if this will radically alter the meta as a whole, since as we said before, SM is otherwise a pretty "solved meta".