Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

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Acast

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Kyube can run Sub sets very well.

But guys, another thing I wanted to bring up. Do you think we were too hasty on quickbanning Pheromosa? Every meta wanted it quickbanned initially, but now as the metagame developed, it been proven to be overhyped (but still powerful). Any chance it gets reintroduced in Monotype?
Monotype isn't comparable to things like OU in this case. I've heard that even in OU, checks to Pheromosa are few and far between. In OU, you're not restricted by the type you've chosen to use. If your team is generally weak to Fighting moves, there's no rule against adding a Ghost or Flying type to fix the weakness. Monotype teams are much more limited in their options and oftentimes don't have the capability to check certain pokemon. That's exactly how it is with Pheromosa. It's such a huge threat that most types would struggle to deal with it, so it would be more of an issue here than it is in OU.
 
Monotype isn't comparable to things like OU in this case. I've heard that even in OU, checks to Pheromosa are few and far between. In OU, you're not restricted by the type you've chosen to use. If your team is generally weak to Fighting moves, there's no rule against adding a Ghost or Flying type to fix the weakness. Monotype teams are much more limited in their options and oftentimes don't have the capability to check certain pokemon. That's exactly how it is with Pheromosa. It's such a huge threat that most types would struggle to deal with it, so it would be more of an issue here than it is in OU.
Doesn't that apply to Hoopa-U aswell if you look at it at this point of view, and even then Monotype failed to ban it in ORAS while in OU it was banned? Not that i disagree with Pheromosa being banned at all, that is broken as hell, but some types also can't afford a Hoopa-U switch in or some types lack good ways of luring/severely weakening the backbone it usually has on both types. People tend to look at Hoopa-U as a single mon, but forget that it can switch out to stuff like Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Slowbro and Jirachi, mons that can switch in on a bunch of mons that can revenge kill it. What makes me edge towards a ban in Hoopa-U is the fact that it has such a solid defensive backbone that most of the time it just gets to switch out safely (or without much harm), while almost having no switch ins, especially in the early game stage, when the set has yet to be figured out.
 
Well actually, i think the team support argument works both ways. Yes Hoopa-U was banned in OU meaning in theory it should only be more threatening in mono. Because there are fewer ways to counter it. But if you look from the other side you have to consider that Hoopa-U cant get the same team support in mono that it can get in OU. You cant run the same support. So i think the argument goes both ways.

Thus if you want to make an argument for Pheramosa, the best thing you could argue is its lack of team support from bug and fighting make it much more managable in mono than it is in OU.

Now as for my personal opinion at a glance. Dark has pretty good team support and Psychic has some of the best team support in the entire meta. So i cant really see a reason why it is any less broken in mono than it is in OU. Unless OU was wrong in banning it. I personaly think it would be easier to argue for Pheramosa with Bug's lack of reliable defenses than it would be for Hoopa-U. Yet thats just me.
 
Doesn't that apply to Hoopa-U aswell if you look at it at this point of view, and even then Monotype failed to ban it in ORAS while in OU it was banned? Not that i disagree with Pheromosa being banned at all, that is broken as hell, but some types also can't afford a Hoopa-U switch in or some types lack good ways of luring/severely weakening the backbone it usually has on both types. People tend to look at Hoopa-U as a single mon, but forget that it can switch out to stuff like Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Slowbro and Jirachi, mons that can switch in on a bunch of mons that can revenge kill it. What makes me edge towards a ban in Hoopa-U is the fact that it has such a solid defensive backbone that most of the time it just gets to switch out safely (or without much harm), while almost having no switch ins, especially in the early game stage, when the set has yet to be figured out.
Idk if this was directed at Acast or whether ur saying it just to say it, but Acast didn't say hoopa wasn't broken and if it were up to the council in gen 6 then it would have gotten banned. So i'm willing to bet that he agrees with what you said. And again, there wasn't a ban system like this one at the time so there's nothing he or any of the council could have done except hope the com banned it after two suspects. Ur right, certain types really didn't have much for it with the support it has. But again, there's nothing anybody could have done other than hope the com banned it so saying "whyd this get banned and this didn't" doesn't really make sense because they were looked at under two diff systems. We had to rely on suspects with hoopa, and with phero the council had more power in there hands to ban it themselves. And again, I guarantee you if hoopa was looked at under a similar system to the current one, it would be gone.

E: that's if u were talking about it in gen 6. I couldn't really tell so I kinda wung it lul. I think in gen 7 the only reason it's not having a similar effect is because the meta consists of broken shit checking other broken shit right now.
 
Idk if this was directed at Acast or whether ur saying it just to say it, but Acast didn't say hoopa wasn't broken and if it were up to the council in gen 6 then it would have gotten banned. So i'm willing to bet that he agrees with what you said. And again, there wasn't a ban system like this one at the time so there's nothing he or any of the council could have done except hope the com banned it after two suspects. Ur right, certain types really didn't have much for it with the support it has. But again, there's nothing anybody could have done other than hope the com banned it so saying "whyd this get banned and this didn't" doesn't really make sense because they were looked at under two diff systems. We had to rely on suspects with hoopa, and with phero the council had more power in there hands to ban it themselves. And again, I guarantee you if hoopa was looked at under a similar system to the current one, it would be gone.
I know that, and no one's blaming anyone or pointing fingers lol, the blame's on the whole community. All I did was use the same analysis he did (that I agreed with) on a mon that has been so controversial since its introduction. And well, while the council has this "power", I personally feel like this mon should be one of the hot topics in their discussion, and imo, should not be a part of the monotype metagame.

Edit: And yea, I'm talking about SUMO. I don't think ORAS is worth discussing at this point tbh
 
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Well there are valid reasons for it getting swept under the rug. It's simply just getting held back by the state of the meta. Some of the potentially broken threats not only keep it in check a bit more, but put it in the back seat in terms of discussion and such. I don't think hoopa is on par with phero in that sense in this state of the meta and other things that are leading the discussion. Depending on what get's banned though, hoopa will more than likely be a hot topic in the future and hopefully in the near future.

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THAT BEING SAID...I would like to bring up something else / start some discussion on.



Been using this monster a lot, mainly on fairy and I've grown to realize really just how good it functions in the meta rn. As far as sets go, I've been using specs. I personally don't see a point in using anything other than specs or band even though band is kinda annoying. There really isn't that much of a merit to running LO since it doesn't exactly have the widest movepool in the world and you just limit it's damage output and hurt its longevity with LO. I've seen the Z mirror move in action and I'm not impressed and using it as a cm wincon just seems really situational. Kinda similar to hoopa in the sense that hoopas choiced sets are it's best sets.

As a wallbeaker, it fills a common wall breaker status of being strong and frail, but one thing that makes it so good is its fantastic speed tier. To echo it's sheer power, electric terrain makes it very difficult to switch into and defensively check and gives it's choiced sets roughly a 5% dmage increase in comparison to something like CB/specs hoopa. (elec stabs like bolt and wild charge ofc) On top of it's power and speed, it also has the ability to grab momentum, which makes it one of the most well rounded wall breakers in the meta.

It does have flaws though and I think it's main flaw is it's limited movepool combined with the fact that electric isn't on par as a standalone offensive type than something like dark. the movepool wouldn't be an issue if electric was a better standalone offensive type. It has its fair share of immunites in the form of mons having secondary ground types or abilities in volt absorb or lighting rod. That's just something to take into consideration when looking at koko as a mon. I think something that helps cover that up is the support from something like tapu bulu on fairy teams. Bulu takes care of most of those immunties, which koko greatly appreciates.


For me personally, Types do have answers to it, but it's just a bit too easy to wear down those answers in the current state of the meta with the support it has access to, which makes it so dangerous in the middle and later stages of battles where teams simply have nothing to take on it's speed and power. You could argue that's the nature of competitive pokemon, but again, I think it's way too easy to for it to function in that sense.



Would like to hear some other thoughts.
 
Well there are valid reasons for it getting swept under the rug. It's simply just getting held back by the state of the meta. Some of the potentially broken threats not only keep it in check a bit more, but put it in the back seat in terms of discussion and such. I don't think hoopa is on par with phero in that sense in this state of the meta and other things that are leading the discussion. Depending on what get's banned though, hoopa will more than likely be a hot topic in the future and hopefully in the near future.

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THAT BEING SAID...I would like to bring up something else / start some discussion on.



Been using this monster a lot, mainly on fairy and I've grown to realize really just how good it functions in the meta rn. As far as sets go, I've been using specs. I personally don't see a point in using anything other than specs or band even though band is kinda annoying. There really isn't that much of a merit to running LO since it doesn't exactly have the widest movepool in the world and you just limit it's damage output and hurt its longevity with LO. I've seen the Z mirror move in action and I'm not impressed and using it as a cm wincon just seems really situational. Kinda similar to hoopa in the sense that hoopas choiced sets are it's best sets.

As a wallbeaker, it fills a common wall breaker status of being strong and frail, but one thing that makes it so good is its fantastic speed tier. To echo it's sheer power, electric terrain makes it very difficult to switch into and defensively check and gives it's choiced sets roughly a 5% dmage increase in comparison to something like CB/specs hoopa. (elec stabs like bolt and wild charge ofc) On top of it's power and speed, it also has the ability to grab momentum, which makes it one of the most well rounded wall breakers in the meta.

It does have flaws though and I think it's main flaw is it's limited movepool combined with the fact that electric isn't on par as a standalone offensive type than something like dark. the movepool wouldn't be an issue if electric was a better standalone offensive type. It has its fair share of immunites in the form of mons having secondary ground types or abilities in volt absorb or lighting rod. That's just something to take into consideration when looking at koko as a mon. I think something that helps cover that up is the support from something like tapu bulu on fairy teams. Bulu takes care of most of those immunties, which koko greatly appreciates.


For me personally, Types do have answers to it, but it's just a bit too easy to wear down those answers in the current state of the meta with the support it has access to, which makes it so dangerous in the middle and later stages of battles where teams simply have nothing to take on it's speed and power. You could argue that's the nature of competitive pokemon, but again, I think it's way too easy to for it to function in that sense.



Would like to hear some other thoughts.
I mostly agree with what was stated here, from my experience so far Koko can be such a big threat, and can even act as a late game cleaner with its amazing speed. It is very hard to switch into and cannot be revenge-killed as easily with its great speed, but can be worn down a lot with hazards + Life Orb which is why you said you were using Choice Specs. However I've found Life Orb to be better IMO because of the flexibility it gives Koko, because as you said it has limited movepool, but can greatly abuse what it has, for example Grass Knot and HP Ice. In my opinion it is not a good comparison to Hoopa-U as Hoopa-U has no safe switchins to Dark Pulse, as there are no immunities to dark, and everything that resists dark risks getting Psyshocked.


252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 123-144 (41.1 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 107-126 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 252-299 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Any dragon with respectable bulk can switch into Thunderbolt at least once. This damage is by no means bad, rather impressive, but Life Orb gives it the opportunity to follow it up with a Dazzling Gleam without having to find a switchin. Maybe such situations would be more relevant while playing Electric, but I hope you catch my drift.

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 413-489 (114.4 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 333-395 (104.3 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Once again Koko enjoys clicking Thunderbolt without having to risk a ground type switching in, and if the ground type does switch in it can get Grass Knoted or HP Iced the next turn. Usually as you mentioned in your post Tapu Bulu for fairy has a great time eliminating the ground types but many ground types have attacks that can hurt Tapu Bulu, see Mamoswine and Landorus.


tl;dr
I think on a mon like Koko that has common immunity switchins as you mentioned it's safer to run LO to be able to play around those switchins easier. Tapu Koko is still a threat for any team no matter the set however.
 
Re: Tapu Koko

While testing a couple teams recently, what I noticed right away when facing opposing Tapu Koko, was how difficult it can be to predict.

Looking at types weak to it's STABs: It can be a nightmare for Water. In one scenario you lead with your Seismitoad/Swampert, they lead Koko. If's an Electric team, you think it's going to U-turn into a Ground Immunity when you click Earthquake but instead it OHKOs you with Grass Knot from an unexpected special set (let's assume it was a high roll).

252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 356-420 (85.9 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO.

You notice it took no LO recoil, so you think, great it's a Specs set. You bring in Mantine to tank the Grass Knot/ force a switch and get blown back by a terrain boosted Volt Switch/Tbolt because suprise again: it was holding a Zap plate / Pixie plate / Z Crystal putting you on the backfoot in just 2 turns.

Dragon vs Electric Koko: You lead with bulky SR Garchomp, they lead with Koko. You fear a Dazzling Gleam Twinkle Tackle, so you switch out to your special sponge in AV Goodra but get blown back by a Band Brave Bird. Let's say they predicted your switch away from Fairy STAB.

252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 241-284 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your special sponge has then lost a good chunk of it's HP and all your early battle momentum is gone.

In a Nutshell: Koko seems to have no problem running either physical or special sets and you can't really say that there's a convention based on type. Band/Specs/Z Crystal/Plate are arguably viable on both Fairy/Electric and it can be a nightmare predicting which when items aren't obvious like Life Orb. To avoid such scenarios you need to sacrifice momentum and "play it safe" which could in itself, backfire as it still has access to pivoting moves like U-Turn/Volt Switch. That said, I think it's just fine in this current meta as there are other mons whose continued existence are more questionable.
 
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Re: Tapu Koko

While testing a couple teams recently, what I noticed right away when facing opposing Tapu Koko, was how difficult it can be to predict.

Looking at types weak to it's STABs: It can be a nightmare for Water. In one scenario you lead with your Seismitoad/Swampert, they lead Koko. If's an Electric team, you think it's going to U-turn into a Ground Immunity when you click Earthquake but instead it OHKOs you with Grass Knot from an unexpected special set (let's assume it was a high roll).

252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 356-420 (85.9 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO.

You notice it took no LO recoil, so you think, great it's a Specs set. You bring in Mantine to tank the Grass Knot/ force a switch and get blown back by a terrain boosted Volt Switch/Tbolt because suprise again: it was holding a Zap plate / Pixie plate / Z Crystal putting you on the backfoot in just 2 turns.

Dragon vs Electric Koko: You lead with bulky SR Garchomp, they lead with Koko. You fear a Dazzling Gleam Twinkle Tackle, so you switch out to your special sponge in AV Goodra but get blown back by a Band Brave Bird. Let's say they predicted your switch away from Fairy STAB.

252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 241-284 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your special sponge has then lost a good chunk of it's HP and all your early battle momentum is gone.

In a Nutshell: Koko seems to have no problem running either physical or special sets and you can't really say that there's a convention based on type. Band/Specs/Z Crystal/Plate are arguably viable on both Fairy/Electric and it can be a nightmare predicting which when items aren't obvious like Life Orb. To avoid such scenarios you need to sacrifice momentum and "play it safe" which could in itself, backfire as it still has access to pivoting moves like U-Turn/Volt Switch. That said, I think it's just fine in this current meta as there are other mons whose continued existence are more questionable.
I agree with Koko being unpredictable on Electric, although it isnt that hard to figure the set out, mostly because the player will play carefully with in since it is the terrain setter, but on Fairy monos the special set is much superior.
 
Re: Tapu Koko

While testing a couple teams recently, what I noticed right away when facing opposing Tapu Koko, was how difficult it can be to predict.

Looking at types weak to it's STABs: It can be a nightmare for Water. In one scenario you lead with your Seismitoad/Swampert, they lead Koko. If's an Electric team, you think it's going to U-turn into a Ground Immunity when you click Earthquake but instead it OHKOs you with Grass Knot from an unexpected special set (let's assume it was a high roll).

252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 356-420 (85.9 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO.

You notice it took no LO recoil, so you think, great it's a Specs set. You bring in Mantine to tank the Grass Knot/ force a switch and get blown back by a terrain boosted Volt Switch/Tbolt because suprise again: it was holding a Zap plate / Pixie plate / Z Crystal putting you on the backfoot in just 2 turns.

Dragon vs Electric Koko: You lead with bulky SR Garchomp, they lead with Koko. You fear a Dazzling Gleam Twinkle Tackle, so you switch out to your special sponge in AV Goodra but get blown back by a Band Brave Bird. Let's say they predicted your switch away from Fairy STAB.

252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 241-284 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your special sponge has then lost a good chunk of it's HP and all your early battle momentum is gone.

In a Nutshell: Koko seems to have no problem running either physical or special sets and you can't really say that there's a convention based on type. Band/Specs/Z Crystal/Plate are arguably viable on both Fairy/Electric and it can be a nightmare predicting which when items aren't obvious like Life Orb. To avoid such scenarios you need to sacrifice momentum and "play it safe" which could in itself, backfire as it still has access to pivoting moves like U-Turn/Volt Switch. That said, I think it's just fine in this current meta as there are other mons whose continued existence are more questionable.
Now this is something that is more relatable to Hoopa-U. But I feel like Koko in general does not have the movepool to make it being as big of a threat just by being unpredictable. I feel like the band set loses out on a lot of coverage and the special set can be checked with more caution. Mixed sets are by far the best but then again Koko ends up trapped in a 4 move syndrome. It also does not have the offenses to be a mixed wallbreaker uninvested, which lets it down a lot.

If anything the saddest part with Koko is it doesn't learn Play Rough :[
 
It may not be hard to figure out czim but you can end up losing or crippling an important mon in the process. Also Special may be "superior" on Fairy but whatever wins eh

and yeah vlmufa, Hoopa-Unbanned Unbound did cross my mind when thinking of Koko, having the stronger offense at the sacrifice of speed. I'd say it remains questionable, even more than Koko.

One thing I did forgot to mention in my previous post, was that Z Crystal / Plate Koko's also have the oppurtunity to run Taunt, which I've personally used to cripple stall, namely Stall Water. Yet another element to add to it's supposedly limited movepool.
 

Namranan

:)))))))))))
I also agree with wanka and stat1c about koko but I have a few things I want to say about it.

Banded koko does rather well against toxapex, which can help fairy against the poison matchup, as it can 2HKO Toxapex with max health and defense. (I know its not the set all toxapex use, but it shows how incredible the damage is)

Proof:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 356-422 (117.1 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's all I have to input for that, but I have another topic that I have wanted to talk about...

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PORYGON-Z (PORY)



Akin to how wanka has been seeing koko recently, I used to see this thing A LOT during the early days of the meta. It seems like it kinda died down a bit, but that is because most people are probably thinking its best gimmick, Z-conversion is too predictable and limited to be good. I have a rebuttal for that...

I went out to make every pory type and sadly found out that pory cannot use Hidden Power to transform into that type. So unfortunately Tyke will not be running fighting pory anytime soon. I was able to get every type but Fairy, Dragon, Ground, Rock, and as mentioned before, fighting...

For those who don't know yet, pory-z's Z-conversion boosts all stats by +1 and changes the type to the first move in Pory's moveset. Adaptability and Download both support this useful new move, and it bolstered Pory-z's usage overall. However, this means that pory does require a move from that typing, and knowing that HP does not work and will result in the stat boost only, no type change.

Since I want to save you all time, I did a TON of testing with the possibilities listed and tiered all of the types based on 5 ladder battles and 3 biased battles (battles with Ticken, Wutkatz2, and others that helped). After that, 2 points were awarded to the type that helped the team win, 1 point was awarded to the type that helped the team but did not win, and 0 points were awarded to types that lost because they were unable to do anything about it, and -1 points were given to types that were completely useless. Here were the results after 3 weeks of testing:


(Maximum points = 16) (P = Physical and not special)
  • Fire (-4) Kinda useless, but actually did prevent a loss by pp stalling a sucker scarf user so I can't say its absolutely useless.
  • Water (-3) Same as fire.
  • Psychic (+7) Really good against fighting, opens up weakness to dark and ghost on the other hand.
  • Bug (+3) Highly situational, but still manages to hold itself together thanks to neutralizing the usual threats to pory and resists fighting.
  • Ice (+6) Very good, but very frail. Weak against fighting, but covers a lot of other types making it more versatile in ladder.
  • Dark (+5) Surprisingly good in ladder, but like ice is frail to fighting.
  • Normal Go back to gen 6
  • Electric (+11) Credits go to Tyke for some of this. Elec can stop chansey from twaving, and is overall a really good STAB move, can also afford to run gimmicks as well.
  • Grass (-8) Don't even try this
  • Ghost (+10) The first pory set that took off in the meta, it is fairly predictable now, but with all of these new type sets running around it can be hard to know for sure.
  • Flying (P) (-6) Wasn't terrible, but it wasn't very good either, kinda situational, but it is kinda bad considering Pory can't run physical.
  • Steel (P) (-6) Despite it being the meta, Steel can't make all mons great.

Now I am going to go a little bit more in depth with each type and how it can be used, so please bear with me and read this large wall of text. Also no sets are going to be directly listed, there are also no replays due to a few of them containing teams that should not be revealed to the public.

Moves I used that make this possible:
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Zen Headbutt
- Wonder Room

Good Supporting moves:
Shadow ball, HP Fighting/Steel, Thunderbolt

Description:
This is one of the most viable pory sets I found, but it is so weak to ghost and dark that it couldn't quite get above +10. Psychic is a 90BP STAB move, which on Pory-Z, can lead to some great damage. Psyshock is an optional alternative that can be used to kill sweepers and specially defensive poison types. Zen Headbutt is not recommended, but can be tried if you care enough, as it is physical and not really helped by Pory-Z's Atk Stat. Wonder Room is purely for gimmick teams, and when used in ladder can cripple tanks quite a bit.
Shadow ball, HP Fighting/Steel, and Thunderbolt can be used for coverage.

Verdict:
I won 4 out of 8 games with this pory, the weaknesses are too much and can lead to it getting shut down easily. I would recommend this to people who want a way to have a fail safe in case meloetta dies or if you want to assist it.
Moves I used that make this possible:
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Blizzard

Good Supporting moves:
HP Fighting/Steel/Fire, Shadow ball, Thunderbolt

Description:
Ice Beam and Icy wind I found were both extremely useful as support moves for other types. Icy wind could slow down sweepers that would outspeed the entire team, and ice beam was a great STAB move that can potentially freeze. Blizzard is an alternative in case you have hax or serene grace irl. The typing for ice is weak to WAAAY to many things in order for pory to be able to take a hit during transformation. If you play really well though, the offensive side of Ice can really support Pory.
HP Fighting/Steel/Fire, Shadow ball, and Thunderbolt can be used for coverage.

Verdict:
I won 4 out of 8 matches with Ice-Z. Ice is a bad typing for Pory-Z defensively, but supports it greatly offensively.
Moves I used that make this possible:
- Dark Pulse
- Foul Play

Good Supporting moves:
HP Fighting/Steel, Signal Beam

Description:
Dark is similar to ice in which it makes it hard to defend while transforming. Dark Pulse is a good 80BP STAB move that can take down common threats in other mono normal teams like meloetta. Now while you may think Foul play could be the reason to go physical pory-z look at this calc:
252+ Atk Porygon-Z Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 208 Def Meloetta: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This shows how bad physical sets are on pory, and how they don't really do that well against things that Dpulse Pory can take care of. I don't recommend it at all, this is the only move I will tell you to avoid at all times.
HP Fighting/Steel, and signal beam can be used for coverage.

Verdict:
I won 3 out of 8 matches with Dark-Z. Dark is defensively bad for Pory, but can help take down meloetta and most other mons in a monothreat normal and has good stab power in general.

EDIT: Thanks to Bluerain for pointing this out, but Foul play works based off of the attack of the opposing mon so the meloetta calc is actually not helpful. After playing with the calculator though I still found that even with +6 attack and the STAB, most offensive mons with decent bulk can still live even after SR so you still want to avoid using Foul Play.
Moves I used that make this possible:
- Thunderbolt
- Thunderwave
- Thunder
- Electroweb
- Charge beam
- Magnet Rise

Good Supporting moves:
HP Fighting/Steel, Rain Dance

Description:
Ok I know what you are thinking right now, "Nam why is Rain Dance on there, didn't you say this move was bad?" Yes I did say it was bad, for water pory. On gimmicky T-Pory, rain dance Thunder with STAB is actually VERY powerful. Gimmicks aside though, t-bolt STAB pory with regular assist moves is actually still powerful thanks to t-bolt having 90BP. The thing that makes T-pory so good is that it can change pory's role on the team, and make it very, very useful. Even without Z-conversion. With conversion though, look at how powerful STAB Thunder is in the rain.
+2 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 916-1084 (221.2 - 261.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Its over 200% which means that it will kill even during a roost flying type removal)
+2 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 1112-1310 (537.1 - 632.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 328-387 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(This is usually the most used Meloetta set, any bulk on that and it will still live, even after SR)
These would usually block any of pory's moves, but not STAB thunder.
HP Fighting/Steel and Rain dance are good for supporting this set.

Verdict:
I won 7 out of 8 matches with Electric-Z. With so many useful moves and viable gimmicks that it can pull, this is undoubtedly one of the best pory types that can be used. Once again Thank you tyke for suggesting this to me you deserve the praise for this.
Moves I used that make this possible:
- Shadow ball

Good Supporting moves:
HP Fighting/Steel, Dark pulse, signal beam

Description:
The OG pory type is in the house! This rids itself of fighting and normal weaknesses, which are MAJOR for a normal team. As of gen 7 there are no normal-ghost types, so having Pory-Z being able to do this is really awesome. Nowadays, it is kinda expected, and people will try to knock you off or dark pulse you if they are slower than you. Nonetheless, when it isn't expected, it still does its job very well. STAB Shadow Ball is pretty decent, and with the chance to cripple special defense, it can really frustrate fighting teams that use AV sets.
HP Fighting/Steel, Dark Pulse, and Signal Beam are good assisting moves.

Verdict:
I won 6 out of 8 games with Ghost-Z. Even though people expect it now, it still holds up when the team lacks those weaknesses.



So after all of that, Pory still has a problem that all of the types share... Silvally.
Ticken actually made a really nice silvally set that can survive ALL of Pory-Z's STAB moves and utilizes Z-parting shot to cripple pory as well. Ask Tick if you want to see the actual set. Other than that, all of the pory forms still need setup, and not all of them can take hits very well. Gimmick-wise though, Pory can actually be a fun mon to play around with, magnet rise rain dance STAB Thunder pory is a personal favorite of mine. All in all, while I may have given out some basic info, I still want to see if any of you have made some nice sets. After all, Tyke did suggest electric pory, which is one of the best typings for pory.

So yeah, Wall of Text is now coming to an end, hope reading this made you understand Pory-Z a little better.

EDIT: If people want to know the other more useless sets, they can PM me in showdown if I am there. (I have like 4 accounts, namranan, namranovermemes, nam's redo, and memesbynam)
 
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Thanks for the Porygon-Z write-up. Just a small mistake is that in regards to Dark Porygon, Foul Play doesn't actually calculate the user's attack stat and instead works off of the opponent's, so you'd do the same damage to the same opponent whether you invested in Attack or not. Probably still isn't worth using, though.
 
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Brace yourself, inc wall of text.

So while I know Mega-Gross discussion has sorta been pushed to the side, I still think it's one of the more pressing issues in our meta. But first I want to speak my thoughts regarding two threats discussed recently: Hoopa-U and Tapu Koko, and the comparisons made between them.​

Hoopa-U: Hoopa-U's insane power, versatility, and unpredictability coupled with excellent support on both it's types make the genie a huge threat in the metagame. Sporting 160/170 offenses and a motherload of coverage, Hoopa-U can shatter defensive cores with ease. There's a common misconception that a supply of common checks on most types (like u-turners and other physical attackers) keep the space anus from being broken, but that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Hoopa-U dangerous. He is a wallbreaker, who breaks defensive cores for other pokemon (greninja, tini, megagross, etc) to clean: so (A) being check-able doesn't stop Hoopa-U from doing it's job and (B) "Checks" don't remove Hoopa-U from the equation as both Dark and Psychic have a strong defensive backbone to cover Hoopa-U's weaknesses and keep it healthy to dismantle balanced, defensive, and bulky offensive cores/teams with ease.

Tapu Koko: Koko is an extremely hard-hitting, blazing-fast offensive wallbreaker and who can run through and clean teams effectively with support. Whatever it can't kill, it can pivot on. However, like others have said, Koko has it's problems. It's primary offensive STAB can be nullified by Ground's immunity, and Koko's options outside of Electric STAB are weak and limited by comparison. Koko can't break down defensive cores like Hoopa-U can (besides Water and Flying); rather, what makes Koko dangerous and possibly unhealthy (on top of wallbreaking) is how, with his incredible firepower and speed, Koko can dismantle Offensive Cores and clean extremely well.

Conclusion:
Tapu Koko and Hoopa-U are both incredibly heavy-hitting threats in the tier: Hoopa threatens defense/balance while Koko (primarily) threatens offense and cleans. Both are definitely worthy of close inspection.

(Sorry if that was basic/redundant, just wanted to get that out here. Now onto the main discussion)



BST: 700 ( 80 HP / 145 Atk / 150 Def / 105 SpA / 110 SpD / 110 Spe)
Mega-Metagross was reintroduced to the tier at the start of this gen, and it's been a controversial presence in the metagame ever since. People have calling for it's ban since before the ladder went live, and while there were more pressing threats at the time (Gensect, Lele, Darkrai) it's easy to see why people took notice of Mega-Metagross and why it's such a hot topic now. With it's high speed, powerful tough claws boosted attacks, well rounded coverage, and incredible defensive typing / bulk Mega-Metagross is a supremely strong pokemon.

And Mega-Gross is not a small part of the metagame, it is an S-ranked pokemon on two top tier types who had over 12% usage across the entire metagame last month.

So it's understandable why so many people are saying that for the types that are weak to Gross's STABs (Fighting, Poison, Fairy, Ice, Rock) Metagross is too much to deal with. That's 5 types, almost 1/3 of the metagame.

--- So firstly, is Mega-Metagross too overwhelming for these types to deal with? ---

I'd say yes, it is. Mega-Metagross's combination of speed, power, and bulk makes it impossible to counter and very difficult to check for all five types listed above, past the point of reasonable counterplay.

I'll explain my reasoning why that's the case for each type, for those who don't agree.

RED = A calc demonstrating Mega-Gross attacking a pokemon
GREEN = A calc demonstrating a pokemon attacking Mega-Gross
BOLD= A calc demonstrating a potentially helpful check
Mega-Metagross's blitzing speed let's it outspeed every fighting type in the meta besides Hawlucha and Choice Scarfed pokemon and OHKO them.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 402-474 (124.4 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 306-360 (105.1 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 488-576 (166.5 - 196.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 278-330 (78.3 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Choice Scarfed pokemon like Heracross and Terrakion are unable to revenge kill Mega-Metagross and sacrifice offensive momentum to attempt so. The only scarves that can OHKO and revenge kill MegaGross are Overheat Infernape and Emboar. These are not healthy adaptations.

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Conclusion: The only recourse Fighting has is to attempt to paralyze Mega-Metagross using a bulky check like Cobalion, holding a chople berry or running phys Defense, chunk it with band buzzwole or 2HKO with scarf Buzzwole, or run scarf emboar/overheat infernape.
Zen Headbutt is able to 1 or 2HKO every pokemon on poison, while Meteor Mash / EQ 2HKOs the three psychic immunities at Poison's disposal. I've been suggested running Z-Stockpile toxapex to 1v1 Mega-Metagross, but it's fair to say Poison cannot handle Mega-Gross defensively.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 230-272 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Muk-Alola: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 294-348 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Crobat: 420-494 (112.6 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 134-158 (44 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO


Offensively Poison has extremely limited options. Because of Mega-Gross's superb 80/150/110 bulk it's very difficult to revenge him.

252 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 120-142 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 385-455 (127.9 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Conclusion: The only proper checks are Salazzle (who gets worn down by SR and has plenty of switch ins) and the z-stockpile set mentioned above (which credits to Eien). You could also use rocky helmet recover stall to bring mega-gross into RKO range for the aforementioned threats. But Mega-Gross should get a kill each time it comes in.
Probably the best off of the types Mega-Gross is SE on, as Tapu Koko is able to outspeed and heavily dent Gross to force it off and generate momentum off it. Koko, however, has strong switch ins on Steel and can only revenge Mega-Metagross (and even then only with previous chip). Outside of Koko, nothing else can handle Gross defensively or offensive potentially Mimikyu or Klefki.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 366-432 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 250-295 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 159-187 (50 - 58.8%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Conclusion: Outside of Koko, nothing else can handle Gross defensively or offensively besides, tbh. Hope you can somehow use swords dance without having your disguise broken maybe.
So yeah, obviously nothing on ice can take Steel + Fighting coverage, first of all.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 192-228 (48.8 - 58%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 370-436 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 336-396 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 498-588 (137.9 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


And very little can effectively KO outspeed and KO it either.

252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-218 (60.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 204-241 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 168 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 229-271 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sandslash-Alola Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Conclusion: No great responses on this type. You could rack up 1/2 hits worth of rocky helmet damage with avalugg and revenge using Weavile, Mamoswine, or simply set it up for Cloyster / Sandslash to clean later.
Again, Meteor Mash will tear through rock teams and OHKO/2HKO everything. Very little can outspeed it and basically nothing can check it besides rhypherior.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 480-568 (119.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 452-534 (139.9 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 189-222 (43.5 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Offensively, it's grim. Even if you can manage to get webs up and force Metagross out after it's mega-evolved with Rhypherior, so you can outspeed it.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lycanroc-Midday Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 184-218 (61.1 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 180-212 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 333-393 (110.6 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Conclusion: Run rhypherior + webs and you might be able to check it later. Omastar can OHKO it after a smash (but both steel/psychic have easy responses to that).

If I'm missing anything about any of these five types MU against Mega-Metagross, let me know. But I think we can agree that these types have a very, very difficult time checking, let alone actually KOing, Mega-Metagross. It's too fast for most pokemon to outspeed, and too bulky to be killed by the pokemon who can. It's overwhelming.

But if we agree that these matchups, 10 match ups, are woefully lopsided, that brings us to the next question; the discussion I really want to have.


--- Secondly, would these matchups be any better if Mega-Metagross were gone? ---

I've heard this argument quite a lot in discussions about Mega-Metagross, usually in reference to Gross's domination over Ice and Rock. "Sure, Mega-Gross bends these types over sideways, but Steel and Psychic already beat those five anyways. Banning Mega-Gross wouldn't give these types a better chance in those matchups".

And it makes sense: why remove an element of the metagame if it's not actually to make an impact on the match up with these types?

To some extent I agree, banning Mega-Gross isn't going to make the MU against Steel easier for Rock and Ice or Fairy. Mega-Scizor will fill the void and be just as dominating. But that's as far as that argument goes for me. You can't dismiss the other 7 match ups as lost causes.

Steel vs. Poison
Steel vs. Fighting
Psychic vs. Rock
Psychic vs. Ice
Psychic vs. Fighting
Psychic vs. Fairy
Psychic vs. Poison

These are match ups that deserve more consideration for how dramatic an impact Mega-Metagross has on them. They are relevant, and their lopsidedness is important to the health of the metagame. But we shouldn't theorycraft on whether the meta would improve without Mega-Metagross, or whether these match ups would be less one-sided: we should test it.

Conclusion:
I think these 7 lopsided match ups make Mega-Metagross a great candidate for Generation 7 Monotype's first Suspect Test
 
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^id say as far as poison is concerned, that is spot on. The only thing I would add is that megagross really forces poison to run salazzle or auto-lose, and without megagross in the meta, poison is free to run scolipede/gengar, both of which make the psychic matchup much more even.

The steel matchup is also much more manageable for poison with megagross gone, as again scarfgar/scolipede can handle scarf exca way better than salazzle, and toxapex is more than enough to handle mega scizor (which would presumably be the most popular mega assuming a ban).
 
Going off Tykes great write-up I wanted to put my own input on Megagross, based on how I have used it myself.


Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake / Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Grass Knot

I've been toying around ice + grass coverage Megagross and let me tell you it has made a lot of matchups a lot scarier for my opponent. What I felt was missing from Tykes post is that sets like this one can be run to turn around some matchups in my favor.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp-Mega: 408-484 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 368-436 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Most variants of Grachomp, either mega or normal, will get OHKO'd with the slightest of residual.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 162-192 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 266-314 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Hippowdon cannot switch in to this monster, even mixed wall Hippowdon has no chance, and of course Earthquake isn't even close to knocking Megagross out.

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 396-468 (95.6 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The most solid Ice Punch switchin has little to no chance of surviving a Grass Knot, assuming it even runs max HP.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-508437480
- A well played Megagross + Skarmory leave ground to a dead end. Only Excadrill under Gravity can give me a hard time.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-508442095 - Here I made the missplay of switchin Skarmory into a Gravity Earthquake. However the game was still won because of Megagross' insane bulk.
Grounds best play is to keep Gravity up or get a lucky Scald burn by Gastrodon.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 318-376 (113.1 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


If the opponent does the mistake of not protecting it is over for Sharpedo (see replays) but Skarmory checks anyway.

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 340-404 (84.1 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The most solid switchin to Megagross on water gets OHKO'd after any hit by Grass Knot.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 238-280 (52.4 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-508746427
- Megagross straight up caught my opponent off-guard. There was little that could be done.
Waters best play is to be aggressive with Greninja. HP Fire Greninja variants can be really tough to deal with. Slowbro water can also beat steel, but I'm not sure how common that is at the moment.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp-Mega: 408-484 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 368-436 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 336-396 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If Hammer Arm is run Hydreigon is easily OHKO'd, but also to mention, scarf Hydreigon fails to OHKO Megagross.

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross-Mega: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (with the -spdef nature)

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 278-328 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(if Meteor Mash is run).

Unfortunately didn't save a good dragon replay.
Dragon needs residual such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp to be able to kill Megagross with scarf Hydreigon.

Good partners is what makes Megagross so good.



I have found these mons to be extremely good at supporting Megagross in the current meta, with:

Magnezone trapping steel types that none of Megagross' sets can break through, such as Skarmory, Scizor, Celesteela, etc. I feel like this also greatly gives you an advantage vs flying if you are running Ice Punch Megagross.

Ferrothorn checking water mons like Greninja (non HP Fire) and some ground types is greatly appreciated. Hazard stack also greatly helps Megagross get the few OHKOs that it couldn't get before.

Skarmory hard-walling the few checks to Megagross on ground such as Sand Rush Excadrill and scarfers such as Krookodile. Can also support with Spikes.



tl:dr

Megagross turns around some matchups simply because of how surprisingly versatile it can be, but what makes it so good is also the support it gets from steel. Takes me back to the meta where we had Zard X on flying so we had to ban Zapdos lol.

So I'm not sure if this is enough to ban Megagross but I agree with Tyke and suggesting this should be the first Sun and Moon monotype community suspect!
 
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Namranan

:)))))))))))
RE: Mega-metagross (Nice job Tyke with the write-up btw.)

So along with Tyke I also find that people have various arguments for why Mega-metagross is OP, however one of the arguments that I have found is that running dumb gimmicks or unnatural sets on it can actually still lead to it carrying the team to victory. What i got from this is that A) Gimmicks on Megagross may become viable and useful and B) Megagross is so versatile that it can run anything and make it work. I have ran flash Megagross with EQ, MM, and ice punch for coverage. Lets just say I won some and lost some, but the fact that I won should not even exist.

Also I dunno why but sometimes I think my replays get deleted or just don't show up at all when I try to find them, anyone else going through this?
Anyhow yeah, I agree that a suspect test should be run on Megagross mainly because NO mon should be able to run gimmicks and legitimate sets like dual swords, that is when you know a mon is too versatile and possibly over powered. That's my opinion anyhow, please feel free to prove me wrong.
 
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Thanks you two for the amazing write ups. I wanted to write a megagross write up but something that lengthy is quite time consuming, and I don't think I have the proper knowledge to come at it from the perspective of those types who are struggling with it the most.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
RE: Mega-metagross (Nice job Tyke with the write-up btw.)

So along with Tyke I also find that people have various arguments for why Mega-metagross is OP, however one of the arguments that I have found is that running dumb gimmicks or unnatural sets on it can actually still lead to it carrying the team to victory. What i got from this is that A) Gimmicks on Megagross may become viable and useful and B) Megagross is so versatile that it can run anything and make it work. I have ran flash Megagross with EQ, MM, and ice punch for coverage. Lets just say I won some and lost some, but the fact that I won should not even exist.

Also I dunno why but sometimes I think my replays get deleted or just don't show up at all when I try to find them, anyone else going through this?
Anyhow yeah, I agree that a suspect test should be run on Megagross mainly because NO mon should be able to run gimmicks and legitimate sets like dual swords, that is when you know a mon is too versatile and possibly over powered. That's my opinion anyhow, please feel free to prove me wrong.
I'm not sure I understand some of the things you're trying to say. Flash Metagross? As in the move that lowers your opponent's accuracy? Is that what you're saying you were using? And what is "dual swords"? Is that some weird name for a specific Metagross set I've never heard of?

Regardless of your terminology, I think I understand your overall point. You're saying that if a pokemon is capable of winning battles by using suboptimal sets, it's obviously broken. Am I correct?

If that's what you're trying to say, then your logic is extremely flawed. I think the vast majority of us can agree that Regigigas is not a good pokemon in Monotype by any stretch of the imagination, but if you run it with Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave, it's going to do some work and end up winning a few battles here and there. Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave works every now and then, but it's an awful strategy if you really want to play seriously. It's all about consistency. Literally any pokemon can run a bad set and it'll accomplish something at one point or another. What makes the sets bad are that they cannot produce results consistently.

Lets just say I won some and lost some, but the fact that I won should not even exist.
This is my biggest issue with your argument. Of course you're going to win a battle or two as long as you're at least trying to win. I could run Coil Dunsparce and I'd get a win every now and then. The issue is not whether it can win. The issue is whether or not it wins so consistently that it gives the Metagross user an uncompetitive advantage. Please consider that next time you provide an argument for banning something.
 

Namranan

:)))))))))))
I'm not sure I understand some of the things you're trying to say. Flash Metagross? As in the move that lowers your opponent's accuracy? Is that what you're saying you were using? And what is "dual swords"? Is that some weird name for a specific Metagross set I've never heard of?

Regardless of your terminology, I think I understand your overall point. You're saying that if a pokemon is capable of winning battles by using suboptimal sets, it's obviously broken. Am I correct?

If that's what you're trying to say, then your logic is extremely flawed. I think the vast majority of us can agree that Regigigas is not a good pokemon in Monotype by any stretch of the imagination, but if you run it with Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave, it's going to do some work and end up winning a few battles here and there. Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave works every now and then, but it's an awful strategy if you really want to play seriously. It's all about consistency. Literally any pokemon can run a bad set and it'll accomplish something at one point or another. What makes the sets bad are that they cannot produce results consistently.

This is my biggest issue with your argument. Of course you're going to win a battle or two as long as you're at least trying to win. I could run Coil Dunsparce and I'd get a win every now and then. The issue is not whether it can win. The issue is whether or not it wins so consistently that it gives the Metagross user an uncompetitive advantage. Please consider that next time you provide an argument for banning something.
Well I guess I must have been a little unclear in my argument. I believe what I meant was that using suboptimal sets AND good sets interchangebly and still getting the same result no matter what was slightly problematic (Hence the dual swords comparison). I can see now that I was wrong thanks to your rebuttal, yeah I guess running non-legitimate and legitamate sets interchangebly isn't a big problem, (I mean that is why citizen snips exists right?). Sorry for the poor argument, I will try to be a little more thorough in my argument next time.
 
Brace yourself, inc wall of text.

So while I know Mega-Gross discussion has sorta been pushed to the side, I still think it's one of the more pressing issues in our meta. But first I want to speak my thoughts regarding two threats discussed recently: Hoopa-U and Tapu Koko, and the comparisons made between them.​

Hoopa-U: Hoopa-U's insane power, versatility, and unpredictability coupled with excellent support on both it's types make the genie a huge threat in the metagame. Sporting 160/170 offenses and a motherload of coverage, Hoopa-U can shatter defensive cores with ease. There's a common misconception that a supply of common checks on most types (like u-turners and other physical attackers) keep the space anus from being broken, but that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Hoopa-U dangerous. He is a wallbreaker, who breaks defensive cores for other pokemon (greninja, tini, megagross, etc) to clean: so (A) being check-able doesn't stop Hoopa-U from doing it's job and (B) "Checks" don't remove Hoopa-U from the equation as both Dark and Psychic have a strong defensive backbone to cover Hoopa-U's weaknesses and keep it healthy to dismantle balanced, defensive, and bulky offensive cores/teams with ease.

Tapu Koko: Koko is an extremely hard-hitting, blazing-fast offensive wallbreaker and who can run through and clean teams effectively with support. Whatever it can't kill, it can pivot on. However, like others have said, Koko has it's problems. It's primary offensive STAB can be nullified by Ground's immunity, and Koko's options outside of Electric STAB are weak and limited by comparison. Koko can't break down defensive cores like Hoopa-U can (besides Water and Flying); rather, what makes Koko dangerous and possibly unhealthy (on top of wallbreaking) is how, with his incredible firepower and speed, Koko can dismantle Offensive Cores and clean extremely well.

Conclusion:
Tapu Koko and Hoopa-U are both incredibly heavy-hitting threats in the tier: Hoopa threatens defense/balance while Koko (primarily) threatens offense and cleans. Both are definitely worthy of close inspection.

(Sorry if that was basic/redundant, just wanted to get that out here. Now onto the main discussion)



BST: 700 ( 80 HP / 145 Atk / 150 Def / 105 SpA / 110 SpD / 110 Spe)
Mega-Metagross was reintroduced to the tier at the start of this gen, and it's been a controversial presence in the metagame ever since. People have calling for it's ban since before the ladder went live, and while there were more pressing threats at the time (Gensect, Lele, Darkrai) it's easy to see why people took notice of Mega-Metagross and why it's such a hot topic now. With it's high speed, powerful tough claws boosted attacks, well rounded coverage, and incredible defensive typing / bulk Mega-Metagross is a supremely strong pokemon.

And Mega-Gross is not a small part of the metagame, it is an S-ranked pokemon on two top tier types who had over 12% usage across the entire metagame last month.

So it's understandable why so many people are saying that for the types that are weak to Gross's STABs (Fighting, Poison, Fairy, Ice, Rock) Metagross is too much to deal with. That's 5 types, almost 1/3 of the metagame.

--- So firstly, is Mega-Metagross too overwhelming for these types to deal with? ---

I'd say yes, it is. Mega-Metagross's combination of speed, power, and bulk makes it impossible to counter and very difficult to check for all five types listed above, past the point of reasonable counterplay.

I'll explain my reasoning why that's the case for each type, for those who don't agree.

RED = A calc demonstrating Mega-Gross attacking a pokemon
GREEN = A calc demonstrating a pokemon attacking Mega-Gross
BOLD= A calc demonstrating a potentially helpful check
Mega-Metagross's blitzing speed let's it outspeed every fighting type in the meta besides Hawlucha and Choice Scarfed pokemon and OHKO them.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 402-474 (124.4 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 306-360 (105.1 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 488-576 (166.5 - 196.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 278-330 (78.3 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Choice Scarfed pokemon like Heracross and Terrakion are unable to revenge kill Mega-Metagross and sacrifice offensive momentum to attempt so. The only scarves that can OHKO and revenge kill MegaGross are Overheat Infernape and Emboar. These are not healthy adaptations.

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Conclusion: The only recourse Fighting has is to attempt to paralyze Mega-Metagross using a bulky check like Cobalion, holding a chople berry or running phys Defense, chunk it with band buzzwole or 2HKO with scarf Buzzwole, or run scarf emboar/overheat infernape.
Zen Headbutt is able to 1 or 2HKO every pokemon on poison, while Meteor Mash / EQ 2HKOs the three psychic immunities at Poison's disposal. I've been suggested running Z-Stockpile toxapex to 1v1 Mega-Metagross, but it's fair to say Poison cannot handle Mega-Gross defensively.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 230-272 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Muk-Alola: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 294-348 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Crobat: 420-494 (112.6 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 134-158 (44 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO


Offensively Poison has extremely limited options. Because of Mega-Gross's superb 80/150/110 bulk it's very difficult to revenge him.

252 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 120-142 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 385-455 (127.9 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Conclusion: The only proper checks are Salazzle (who gets worn down by SR and has plenty of switch ins) and the z-stockpile set mentioned above (which credits to Eien). You could also use rocky helmet recover stall to bring mega-gross into RKO range for the aforementioned threats. But Mega-Gross should get a kill each time it comes in.
Probably the best off of the types Mega-Gross is SE on, as Tapu Koko is able to outspeed and heavily dent Gross to force it off and generate momentum off it. Koko, however, has strong switch ins on Steel and can only revenge Mega-Metagross (and even then only with previous chip). Outside of Koko, nothing else can handle Gross defensively or offensive potentially Mimikyu or Klefki.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 366-432 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 250-295 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 159-187 (50 - 58.8%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Conclusion: Outside of Koko, nothing else can handle Gross defensively or offensively besides, tbh. Hope you can somehow use swords dance without having your disguise broken maybe.
So yeah, obviously nothing on ice can take Steel + Fighting coverage, first of all.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 192-228 (48.8 - 58%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 370-436 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 336-396 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 498-588 (137.9 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


And very little can effectively KO outspeed and KO it either.

252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-218 (60.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 204-241 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 168 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 229-271 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sandslash-Alola Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Conclusion: No great responses on this type. You could rack up 1/2 hits worth of rocky helmet damage with avalugg and revenge using Weavile, Mamoswine, or simply set it up for Cloyster / Sandslash to clean later.
Again, Meteor Mash will tear through rock teams and OHKO/2HKO everything. Very little can outspeed it and basically nothing can check it besides rhypherior.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 480-568 (119.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 452-534 (139.9 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 189-222 (43.5 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Offensively, it's grim. Even if you can manage to get webs up and force Metagross out after it's mega-evolved with Rhypherior, so you can outspeed it.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lycanroc-Midday Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 184-218 (61.1 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 180-212 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 333-393 (110.6 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Conclusion: Run rhypherior + webs and you might be able to check it later. Omastar can OHKO it after a smash (but both steel/psychic have easy responses to that).

If I'm missing anything about any of these five types MU against Mega-Metagross, let me know. But I think we can agree that these types have a very, very difficult time checking, let alone actually KOing, Mega-Metagross. It's too fast for most pokemon to outspeed, and too bulky to be killed by the pokemon who can. It's overwhelming.

But if we agree that these matchups, 10 match ups, are woefully lopsided, that brings us to the next question; the discussion I really want to have.


--- Secondly, would these matchups be any better if Mega-Metagross were gone? ---

I've heard this argument quite a lot in discussions about Mega-Metagross, usually in reference to Gross's domination over Ice and Rock. "Sure, Mega-Gross bends these types over sideways, but Steel and Psychic already beat those five anyways. Banning Mega-Gross wouldn't give these types a better chance in those matchups".

And it makes sense: why remove an element of the metagame if it's not actually to make an impact on the match up with these types?

To some extent I agree, banning Mega-Gross isn't going to make the MU against Steel easier for Rock and Ice or Fairy. Mega-Scizor will fill the void and be just as dominating. But that's as far as that argument goes for me. You can't dismiss the other 7 match ups as lost causes.

Steel vs. Poison
Steel vs. Fighting
Psychic vs. Rock
Psychic vs. Ice
Psychic vs. Fighting
Psychic vs. Fairy
Psychic vs. Poison

These are match ups that deserve more consideration for how dramatic an impact Mega-Metagross has on them. They are relevant, and their lopsidedness is important to the health of the metagame. But we shouldn't theorycraft on whether the meta would improve without Mega-Metagross, or whether these match ups would be less one-sided: we should test it.

Conclusion:
I think these 7 lopsided match ups make Mega-Metagross a great candidate for Generation 7 Monotype's first Suspect Test
Before talking about megagross, I think what you said about hoopa was right. Just because a pokemon has checks doesn't mean it isnt broken. Most antiban hoopa arguments from oras just ignored the fact that nothing switches in, and I think most of it came from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of a broken wallbreaker. Just because a mon isnt 6-0ing you doesnt mean its not broken...


So it's understandable why so many people are saying that for the types that are weak to Gross's STABs (Fighting, Poison, Fairy, Ice, Rock,) (editing in dragon here) Metagross is too much to deal with. That's 5 types, almost 1/3 of the metagame.
Onto what you said about megagross, a dilemma I think mono tiering has is dealing with specific pokemon that accentuate certain types weaknesses. When teams are restricted to one type, some of them will inevitably lack checks to certain mons, so types w/ a bunch of good pokemon and diverse typings are better equipped, while some turn out shitty like ice and rock. My problem lies in whether pokemon like megagross destroy (I use this word very hesitantly) types like rock/ice/fairy because megagross is way too good, or because these types just arent equipped to deal with it:

  • Ice will never be good, period. The person using it is automatically at a disadvantage in the battle, and banning megagross will not improve its condition whatsoever
  • On the flip side, fairy also struggles with metagross's stab, but is still a top5 type in the meta, and doesnt outright lose to psychic and steel teams. Megagross's presence doesn't make fairy a bad type.
  • Poison is kind of in the middle for me. Its a decent type with some obvious flaws, but mega metagross is really good, if not too good vs it, which probably hurts its viability.
  • Dragon is a strictly offensive type, so it depends on offensive checks to beat threats. It's structure naturally doesnt matchup well with bulky fast mons with that can do good damage vs it. You can classify this one like poison too, but its iffy
what im tryna say with that is im pretty sure megagross shits on ice and rock because ice and rock are horrible types, because fairy still excels in the meta while being relatively weak to megagross. One can argue fighting is down there too, but it wasnt as bad last gen so ill let that one slide. In my opinion, the megagross vs poison/fight matchups are disgusting to play and watch, for reasons already stated, and something should be done about it, but when separating your arguments into each types matchups, all i read is "mega metagross has a good matchup vs X type", and its far and away the mega sab pro ban argument from ORAS, where like 12 or 13 types lacked solid wall breakers in general, and therefore couldnt beat it because these types use balance or more passive forms of bulky offense. To me youre highlighting just these six matchups, instead of megagross's potential dominance on the meta as a whole, and I dont think thats the way to go with your argument. You can approach megagross like you do with hoopa, not focusing on what can check megagross but just what it does to the entire meta. Like you said, just because a pokemon can check megagross doesnt mean it isnt broken.

I think we need a clear divide between scizor sweeping ice and rock, metagross vs poison and fighting, and kartana beating ground and water, and this is something I dont think everyone agrees on just yet, and time is the best remedy. Not speaking for the entire council but to me this is a gray area.


Disregarding what I just said about how u went about arguing megagross is broken/should be suspected, I'll respond to what was actually said now:
So it's understandable why so many people are saying that for the types that are weak to Gross's STABs (Fighting, Poison, Fairy, Ice, Rock) Metagross is too much to deal with. That's 5 types, almost 1/3 of the metagame.
To me, fairy vs metagross is fine. Fairy has relevant counterplay in tapu koko/ mimikyu/klefki, and reflect. Hell, even scizor vs fairy is fine to me, because magearna and babiri mons give some counterplay
I really don't like comparing pokemon like this but for the sake of this post I think its appropriate:
The matchup to me looks a lot like sharpedo vs psychic cuz the matchups clearly in the favor of metagross and scizor, but its not an autoloss because of metagross and scizor. Colbur berry slowbro and scarf victini can check sharpedo, so psy has counterplay just like fairy has klefki/reflect/babiri togekiss for scizor, and mimikyu/klefki/reflect/tapukoko for megagross. They're less reliable than slowbro and victini but they stop megagross and scizor from just demolishing fairy.

Steel vs. Poison
Steel vs. Fighting
Psychic vs. Rock
Psychic vs. Ice
Psychic vs. Fighting
Psychic vs. Fairy
Psychic vs. Fighting
I think that section should more like this:

Steel vs. Poison
Steel vs. Fighting
Steel vs. Dragon (stretch)
Psychic vs. Rock (stretch)
Psychic vs. Fighting
Psychic vs Poison
Psychic vs. Dragon (honestly idek, i havent seen psy v dragon this gen surprisingly)



Going off Tykes great write-up I wanted to put my own input on Megagross, based on how I have used it myself.


Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake / Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Grass Knot

I've been toying around ice + grass coverage Megagross and let me tell you it has made a lot of matchups a lot scarier for my opponent. What I felt was missing from Tykes post is that sets like this one can be run to turn around some matchups in my favor.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp-Mega: 408-484 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 368-436 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Most variants of Grachomp, either mega or normal, will get OHKO'd with the slightest of residual.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 162-192 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 266-314 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Hippowdon cannot switch in to this monster, even mixed wall Hippowdon has no chance, and of course Earthquake isn't even close to knocking Megagross out.

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 396-468 (95.6 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The most solid Ice Punch switchin has little to no chance of surviving a Grass Knot, assuming it even runs max HP.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-508437480
- A well played Megagross + Skarmory leave ground to a dead end. Only Excadrill under Gravity can give me a hard time.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-508442095 - Here I made the missplay of switchin Skarmory into a Gravity Earthquake. However the game was still won because of Megagross' insane bulk.
Grounds best play is to keep Gravity up or get a lucky Scald burn by Gastrodon.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 318-376 (113.1 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


If the opponent does the mistake of not protecting it is over for Sharpedo (see replays) but Skarmory checks anyway.

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 340-404 (84.1 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The most solid switchin to Megagross on water gets OHKO'd after any hit by Grass Knot.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 238-280 (52.4 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-508746427
- Megagross straight up caught my opponent off-guard. There was little that could be done.
Waters best play is to be aggressive with Greninja. HP Fire Greninja variants can be really tough to deal with. Slowbro water can also beat steel, but I'm not sure how common that is at the moment.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp-Mega: 408-484 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 368-436 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 336-396 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If Hammer Arm is run Hydreigon is easily OHKO'd, but also to mention, scarf Hydreigon fails to OHKO Megagross.

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross-Mega: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (with the -spdef nature)

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 278-328 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(if Meteor Mash is run).

Unfortunately didn't save a good dragon replay.
Dragon needs residual such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp to be able to kill Megagross with scarf Hydreigon.

Good partners is what makes Megagross so good.



I have found these mons to be extremely good at supporting Megagross in the current meta, with:

Magnezone trapping steel types that none of Megagross' sets can break through, such as Skarmory, Scizor, Celesteela, etc. I feel like this also greatly gives you an advantage vs flying if you are running Ice Punch Megagross.

Ferrothorn checking water mons like Greninja (non HP Fire) and some ground types is greatly appreciated. Hazard stack also greatly helps Megagross get the few OHKOs that it couldn't get before.

Skarmory hard-walling the few checks to Megagross on ground such as Sand Rush Excadrill and scarfers such as Krookodile. Can also support with Spikes.



tl:dr

Megagross turns around some matchups simply because of how surprisingly versatile it can be, but what makes it so good is also the support it gets from steel. Takes me back to the meta where we had Zard X on flying so we had to ban Zapdos lol.

So I'm not sure if this is enough to ban Megagross but I agree with Tyke and suggesting this should be the first Sun and Moon monotype community suspect!
Grass knot on Metagross is just redundant if you're pairing it with ferrothorn anyway. It only does something in the ground matchup, and its not important enough to neuter yourself over. If you're so adamant ferrothorn is a good teammate grass knot is useless.

Here's my suggested set:




Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt / Thunder Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm / Earthquake

Grounds best play is to keep Gravity up or get a lucky Scald burn by Gastrodon.
You failed to mention dugtrio can trap it and kill from 65pct, and that cb dugtrio ohkos it. If it hits garchomp that has rocky helmet, like u posted in the calc, itll get killed off by dugtrio. I get that its not as reliable as a full counter, but its probably the best counter play. If you ask me, ground v steel is p even in general, but itll be skewed toward ground or steel depending on the exact teams. Celesteela gives ground a lot of problems

If the matchup really is even now, I dont know why thats a problem? If it was literally unwinnable now for ground because of megagross then yea I can see ur gripe, but I just dont see it that way. It's not like dark and ghost vs poison last gen.



For the water v megagross matchup, I dont understand ur point. You acknowledged slowbro can wall megagross but went ahead and said:
The most solid switchin to Megagross on water gets OHKO'd after any hit by Grass Knot.
Megabro is one of the best pokemon in the meta rn. It's popular and relevant enough that people complain about it being broken, and its def on the suspect watchlist. I'd go as far as saying megabro is one of the best megagross counter, so i dont get just ignoring it. What exactly do u want in this match-up? Its pretty even to me, but when u say skew I get the vibe ur intending to use it negatively. Do u mean the matchup would be even if megagross didnt exist and megagross makes the matchup less healthy? because i dont think thats the case. To me water had the advantage and with gen 6 it got more even.

tldr i think everythinig u said is exaggerated
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Before talking about megagross, I think what you said about hoopa was right. Just because a pokemon has checks doesn't mean it isnt broken. Most antiban hoopa arguments from oras just ignored the fact that nothing switches in, and I think most of it came from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of a broken wallbreaker. Just because a mon isnt 6-0ing you doesnt mean its not broken...
Why present the other incomplete half of an argument here? Just because Hoopa has checks doesn't mean it isn't broken, but Hoopa is not necessarily broken just because nothing can switch into it either (plus it has switchins now but w/e). The amount of switchins or checks something has is a piece of evidence that can be used to support a mon being broken or not broken, but neither figure proves it broken on its own. It's not that your first part is wrong, but the implication that people should've voted ban simply because of the number of switchins Hoopa had isn't something I agree with.

Anyway, I was one of the most vocally anti-ban Hoopa people, I still am confident it should not have been banned in ORAS, but my opinion has rather cooled towards it in the SM metagame. Hoopa has gained more mons that check it factually, but in practice pretty much every type always had things to revenge it so the only relevant application is the new counters added. There's Magearna, which absolutely shouldn't be ignored, but neither is it a counter that can consistently switch into Hoopa throughout the match (unless ur scarf and they do nothing but take that 18% and double out). Alolan Muk is another mon that adds counterplay to a rising type that otherwise really can't handle Hoopa. On the flip side, the metagame has slowed down a bit. Bulky styles are better, and while not every bulky archetype loses to Hoopa that does present a larger opportunity for wallbreaking sets to go in. The other thing that I honestly haven't seen enough of is Z-Hoopa. Z-Snatch can be a complete menace and shouldn't be ignored as a gimmick since Hoopa can still put in plenty of wallbreaking work versus a number of types, and Fightnium-Z can get off a random nuke vs things like gears, muk, guaranteed KO on ttar, etc. It adds another layer of versatility to this mon that should not be taken for granted.
Oh and also, since last gen it's gained more hard counters but also z-abuse and a slightly slower metagame. If you immediately want to ban it without question, check and see if that isn't just your opinion from last gen. The mon has changed, and I wouldn't vote based on how you felt in a fundamentally different meta game where Electric was unusable and you could run Scarf Hoopa+Mega Medicham.

Ultimately I still think the general anti-ban reasons from last gen still apply. No type is automatically going to lose to a hoopa, just bulky teams that can suffer from a number of other wallbreakers, and there are other mons that can put what I feel is more dishonest pressure against various other types and playstyles with far less room for good counterplay. Greninja can really just take certain offenses and types as a whole to town, Metagross picks and chooses its counters before you pass it a +2 atk with Mew or Celebi (try this out ppl), and some types have pretty much nothing beyond 1 specific mon and maybe a shitty gimmick to break through Mega Slowbro. If the community wants to ban Hoopa now, I'll understand even if I disagree. However I don't think it's in the same league as these 3 in terms of dismantling things without counterplay and isn't worth suspect talk now. Same goes for Tapu Koko btw, I get it was brought up as more of a discussion point than a suspect point but I've seen some people really exaggerate how destructive it is.
 
Grass knot on Metagross is just redundant if you're pairing it with ferrothorn anyway. It only does something in the ground matchup, and its not important enough to neuter yourself over. If you're so adamant ferrothorn is a good teammate grass knot is useless.

Here's my suggested set:




Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt / Thunder Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm / Earthquake



You failed to mention dugtrio can trap it and kill from 65pct, and that cb dugtrio ohkos it. If it hits garchomp that has rocky helmet, like u posted in the calc, itll get killed off by dugtrio. I get that its not as reliable as a full counter, but its probably the best counter play. If you ask me, ground v steel is p even in general, but itll be skewed toward ground or steel depending on the exact teams. Celesteela gives ground a lot of problems

If the matchup really is even now, I dont know why thats a problem? If it was literally unwinnable now for ground because of megagross then yea I can see ur gripe, but I just dont see it that way. It's not like dark and ghost vs poison last gen.



For the water v megagross matchup, I dont understand ur point. You acknowledged slowbro can wall megagross but went ahead and said:


Megabro is one of the best pokemon in the meta rn. It's popular and relevant enough that people complain about it being broken, and its def on the suspect watchlist. I'd go as far as saying megabro is one of the best megagross counter, so i dont get just ignoring it. What exactly do u want in this match-up? Its pretty even to me, but when u say skew I get the vibe ur intending to use it negatively. Do u mean the matchup would be even if megagross didnt exist and megagross makes the matchup less healthy? because i dont think thats the case. To me water had the advantage and with gen 6 it got more even.

tldr i think everythinig u said is exaggerated
Sorry for the non-detailed post, don't have much time but I wanted to reply back.

1. Yeah I did not really think about Dugtrio as a check, sure is a good mon but I haven't seen it around at all, I just don't think it reflects the meta right now, but you made a good point. Feel free to prove me wrong.

2. Pretty sure I mentioned about how good slowbro can be but I was unaware of its usage. Through most laddering I have done or tours I have watched it seems to me as if balance with gyarados or swift swim is more common. Maybe that's just me. Also:

4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

I don't really call that walling tbh, if a few hazards are up slowbro might not be able to Calm Mind, more so switching in on a Grass Knot.

3. I don't consider Grass Knot as redundant with Ferrothorn as you said it is. It is different when the attack comes from a base 110 speed stat, it can be used more offensively, and Ferrothorn doesn't always have the luxury of wanting to take an attack. However I think you failed to see (maybe I was unclear sorry for that) that the partners section does not have to be used together with Grass Knot Megagross. I was just "showcasing" one of Megagross' many sets, and stated that it is very unpredictable, but team support is what allows it to run weird moves like Grass Knot.



And yes maybe I exaggerated a bit :toast:
 
In my opinion, the megagross vs poison/fight matchups are disgusting to play and watch, for reasons already stated, and something should be done about it, but when separating your arguments into each types matchups, all i read is "mega metagross has a good matchup vs X type". To me youre highlighting just these six matchups, instead of megagross's potential dominance on the meta as a whole, and I dont think thats the way to go with your argument. You can approach megagross like you do with hoopa, not focusing on what can check megagross but just what it does to the entire meta.
Thank you for the thoughtful response to my post wooo i didn't get roasted by paleo. Let me try to restructure my thoughts with Mega-Metagross's impact on the meta as a whole in mind.


Mega-Metagross sports an incredible and unique combination of defensive and offensive presence that make it too difficult for most of the metagame to reasonably handle. Let me elaborate.

---

Mega Metagross is strong, able to put out very heavy damage with it's tough claws boosted attacks. Not only does Gross have good STAB options in Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash, but also enjoys a well-rounded supply of coverage in Ice Punch, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch which lets him take down both offensive and defensive threats reliably outside it's STAB, like Gliscor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and so on.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 368-436 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 206-244 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 384-452 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-188 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 159-187 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 230-272 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's not to say that types have no switch ins, Mega-Gross isn't unwallable like Hoopa-u

Assuming full health, Mandibuzz, Slowbro(-Mega), Staraptor, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Gourgeist-Super, Doublade, Sableye-Mega, Scizor(-Mega) all wall common Mega-Metagross variants, while tentative checks that can chunk or status Gross include Rotom-Wash, Swampert, Celesteela, Alola-Marowak, Jirachi, Klefki, and Torkoal (This is not a complete list). Grass Knot sets shorten this list a bit, but tbh I'm not sure if that's common/viable enough to account for. Here's a breakdown...

Types with no defensive responses: Rock, Ice, Fighting, Poison, and Dragon.
Types with limited, uncommon, and/or inconsistent defensive responses: Fairy, Flying, Electric, Grass, Normal, Ground, and Fire
Types with ample, common, and/or consistent defensive responses: Dark, Bug, Steel, Psychic, Water, and Ghost.
P.S. Keep in mind that a chance boost off of Meteor Mash can be enough to disqualify half the list of defensive checks, though. While I wouldn't base this argument off of a 20% proc chance, it's pretty damn frustrating how so many checks go out the window once Mega-Gross nabs a boost.
So Mega-Metagross is strong enough to break a decent chunk of the defensive metagame, but is in line with other threats in the Metagame like Keldeo, Terrakion, Charizard-Y, and Kyurem-B. Mega-Metagross's offenses are not broken on their own. If so, what else does Mega-Metagross bring to the table? This covers the pokemon who check it defensively, what about offensively? Well....

---

Mega-Metagross is fast, outspeeding a large portion of the unboosted metagame with it's comfy 110 speed tier. This combined with Mega-Metagross's aforementioned power make it a very difficult pokemon to check offensively, as for an offensive check to be effective it must either outspeed the threat or be able to tank a hit to revenge, both of which are in short supply in regards to Mega-Metagross.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 484-572 (135.5 - 160.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp-Mega: 408-484 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-Black: 462-546 (118.1 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 242-286 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 508-600 (159.2 - 188%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 452-534 (139.9 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 456-536 (150.4 - 176.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 250-295 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 313-370 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 256-303 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 380-448 (122.1 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir-Mega: 198-234 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 488-576 (166.5 - 196.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Again, the speed advantage isn't absolute, and most types have opposing forms of offense who can get a hit off on Metagross-Mega.

Greninja, Tapu Koko, Alola Raichu, Excadrill (in sand), Swift Swim Offense, and Dugtrio can outspeed and pressure Mega-Metagross (Again, not a complete list). Similarly, there are some tentative bulky offensive checks like Scizor, Volcanion, and Buzzwole who can take a hit. And finally, there is an ample supply of pokemon who can outspeed Mega-Metagross while wearing a choice scarf! But generally it's fair to there is not a healthy supply of offensive checks that can naturally outspeed or take a hit from Mega-Metagross, and thus must rely on scarves / defensive checks.

Bit of an aside here; while scarves are a viable and relevant element of competitive pokemon, I feel a reliance on them to check any pokemon is unhealthy. This is especially true if (A) your scarf can't pivot or (B) the opposing team has a strong defensive backbone that can wall your scarf and finally (C) the threat is so dangerous you cannot afford to play 50/50s with a switch in. So if one's only response to a threat, like Mega-Metagross, is a scarf then that threat is a pokemon who will consistently steal momentum from you throughout a battle.

And there's another asset Metagross brings to the table. Even if you can outspeed Mega-Gross (either naturally or with a scarf) or can take a hit, you face another problem.

---

Mega-Metagross is FAT, sporting an amazing defensive typing with 9 resists, an immunity, all on top of absurd 80/150/110 bulk. With such defensive clout, Mega-Metagross fails to be KOd by common offensive threats with neutral STAB and SE coverage attacks. Mega-Metagross so bulky that it can even shrug off hits from pokemon using super effective, STAB attacks like Gengar, Rhypherior, Garchomp, Mamoswine, or Infernape!
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-218 (60.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega in Electric Terrain: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega in Electric Terrain: 234-277 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 247-292 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 202-238 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this bulk is where I struggle to qualify Mega-Gross's presence: it limits the pool of offensive checks even further to the point that between Mega-Metagross's bulk, power, and speed, some types have no offensive response to Mega-Metagross. Not only must a pokemon be able to outspeed or outbulk mega-gross, but also be able to actually KO it, a feat in itself as demonstrated by the following calcs above: often relying on more than a single check offensively to bring down Mega Metagross.

Sure there are threats that can outspeed/bulk and KO it: Volcanion, Kingdra, Manaphy, Swampert, Greninja, Salazzle, Sand Rush Drill, and Sharpedo-Mega. And there are some scarves who can check Gross like Victini, Hoopa-U, Chandelure, Darmanitan, etc. But the list of pokemon who can do so is pretty small, fairly inflexible, and not evenly distributed between types. There is a noticeable lack of reliable and flexible offensive checks to it in the metagame. Here's a breakdown.

Types with no offensive responses: Rock, Ice, Fighting, Normal, Grass
Types with limited, uncommon, and/or inconsistent offensive responses: Flying, Dragon, Fairy, Poison, Bug, Ghost, and Steel
Types with ample, common, and/or consistent offensive responses: Dark, Ground, Fire Steel, Psychic, and Water

This lack of offensive responses on some types becomes a very noticeable problem when the same types struggle to handle Mega-Metagross defensively as well: which is why Poison, Fairy, Rock, Ice, and Fighting's matchups with Mega-Metagross have received so much attention, even from me. They are definitely are the most blatant examples of Mega-Metagross's pervasive influence. But the same problems that make Mega-Metagross trample these types can be seen across other MUs, like Grass, Dragon, Flying, and even Normal.

And all this discussion has only spoken to Mega-Metagross's strength independent of team support: we haven't considered that Mega-Gross is present on two of the strongest types in the meta.

Psychic and Steel have a crapton of support to provide Mega-Gross:
- An absurdly strong defensive backbone to cover Mega-Metagross's weaknesses and handle the few offensive checks that threaten it.
- Excellent hazard support, especially Steel's capacity to spikes stack, whittling down the list of Gross-checks even further throughout a battle.
- Excellent Pivots in Magearna, Magnezone, Tini to bring Gross in safely against threats it can break.
- Clerics and Healing Wish support to keep Gross healthy.
- Other wallbreakers like Victini, Hoopa-U, Magearna
- Cleaners like Scizor, Tini, Jirachi
- Trapping Support in Magnezone / Gothitelle to remove checks​

This obviously goes both ways: offering Steel and Psychic an incredibly strong, bulky, and fast attacker with great matchups against almost every type, especially poison, fighting, and dragon. The sparsity of flexible offensive checks to Mega-Metagross allows it to generate undue momentum for Psychic and Steel, which on top of everything else these types already have is frankly unhealthy. While it's true Mega-Gross competes with other Megas on Steel and Psychic (especially Psychic), it certainly sees relevant use on both and is S-ranked on both types.

---

All in all, Mega-Metagross is simply too much for this metagame: it's too bulky, too fast, and too strong for many types to handle reasonably either defensively or offensively: impossible for some.

Conclusion:
Mega-Metagross has an incredible and unique combination of defensive and offensive presence that makes it too overwhelming for much of the metagame to reasonably handle, all while abusing support from two of the best types in the tier. All this make Mega-Metagross an excellent candidate for Gen 7 Monotype's first suspect test.

S.O to The Excadrill, Bondie, and iLlama who helped me proofread this and the previous post.
 
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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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It's been a while... The metagame has really started to develop and settle!

The council voted on 4 things this round. These changes were heavily debated over the last couple weeks and we discussed a wide variety of options for how to deal with these Pokemon. I want to emphasize that these decisions aren't necessarily final—there's the opportunity to suspect test to reverse them at a later date if we think that is a better course of action. We currently don't have plans to initiate a suspect test, though.

Mega Metagross: Ban (5/7 voted ban, other 2 voted to suspect)
Hoopa-Unbound: Ban (5/7 voted ban, other 2 voted to suspect)
Greninja: Wait (7/7 voted to wait)

It is worth highlighting that the 2 of us that wanted to suspect Hoopa-U were different from the 2 that wanted to suspect Mega Metagross. We all have our own views for the best course of action to proceed forward. These votes illustrate that we all agree those two Pokemon should not be in the metagame, but disagree on best way to go about removing them.

~~~

Separate from that discussion, we decided to vote on the existing Baton Pass clause this week. For reference, some of Smogon's tiers are eschewing the current BP clause in favor of a simpler policy. This is something we actually discussed doing when the current clause was implemented back in ORAS. However, we decided it didn't really matter b/c BP builds with the clause are not a large part of the Monotype metagame and the clause was Smogon's way of handling the broken elements associated with it. With that idea changing, we decided to revisit our original decision:

Baton Pass: 7/7 voted to ban

Tagging The Immortal to implement these (lemme know if I need to ask someone else to this go round).
 
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