Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Tyke]

Greninja vs Greninja-Ash

vs.

​

I think Greninja vs Greninja-Ash is a pretty interesting discussion, as I've seen the former getting slept on as people play around with the latter's ridiculously powerful and fast specs set.

Greninja is a fast, mixed attacker with one of the best abilities in the game, Protean, which gives it STAB on every move it uses. Because of this, it's a tremendously versatile attacker who can effectively abuse Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Rock Slide, HP Fire, U-turn, Extrasensory, and Grass Knot with considerable power to dismantle defensive cores. While it lacks raw SpA, it can pinpoint weaknesses, pick the right moves, and boost them with Protean STAB.

Greninja-Ash is a fast, immensely powerful special attacker with a whopping 132 speed and 153 Special Attack, and is able to hold an item. It transforms into this incredibly powerful form after netting a KO as a Greninja with the ability Battle Bond, after which it remains as Ash-Greninja for the rest of the battle. With SPecs or LO Greninja-Ash blows through defensive cores using it's STABs: hydro pump, dark pulse, and even priority in water shuriken.

They're both amazing.

But while Ash-Greninja is incredibly stronk, I think people might be getting a bit swept up with it's raw power and are forgetting the amazing tools Greninja brings to the table. It hits harder with everything outside it's STABs which can often offer more to a team. This makes Greninja is better at mixed-wallbreaking, abusing moves like Gunk Shot, Rock Slide, or Extrasensory to take down checks like Mantine and Mega-Venusaur. Protean also gives it a bit more defensive-clout, being able to remove it's exploitable water/dark typing and avoid getting KOd by certain defensive checks. And it's wildly unpredictable, unlike Ash-Greninja who has 3 cemented moveslots.

But it's not as strong, Ash-Greninja just packs such a tremendous wallop for it's speed tier that it's hard to compete. It's ability to clean is a bit absurd: being able to nearly OHKO threats like Celesteela is crazy, and both Dark and Water dappreciate a mon who can outspeed and blitz the likes of Tapu Koko.

But I think there's still plenty of reason to build around vanilla greninja.

What are your guys' thoughts on the frogs?

Edit: Never Mind. rip ;-;

 

[Eien]

The council has voted on the next round of quickbans.

Battle Bond (Ash-Greninja): Ban (7 votes to ban)
Greninja: Wait (7 votes to wait)
Metagrossite: Wait (1 vote to ban; 6 votes to wait)
Slowbronite: Wait (7 votes to wait)

The ability Battle Bond is banned from Monotype.

Tagging The Immortal to please implement this change

 

[Shadestep]

ahh, about time. But what about Hoopa-U? Hammy posted about it a couple days ago but his post seemed to be completely forgotten under the shitstorm of posts that have been deleted, (should've been) infracted, and discussion on other Pokemon. But anyways, Hoopa-Unbound is incredibly stupid, has basically no switch-ins, etc etc.. the same stuff that 6 made it suspect worthy in ORAS. I've used it extensively and have been faced up vs it a lot, and i think it deserves a round of voting on the council, or at least deserves to get brought up here. I don't think it's necessary to explain what's wrong with it because everybody should know about it by now, but i can make a seperate post if it's needed. it may not be quickban worthy, but suspected at the least. it's busted and unpredictable.

 

[Ronman5]

ahh, about time. But what about Hoopa-U? Hammy posted about it a couple days ago but his post seemed to be completely forgotten under the shitstorm of posts that have been deleted, (should've been) infracted, and discussion on other Pokemon. But anyways, Hoopa-Unbound is incredibly stupid, has basically no switch-ins, etc etc.. the same stuff that 6 made it suspect worthy in ORAS. I've used it extensively and have been faced up vs it a lot, and i think it deserves a round of voting on the council, or at least deserves to get brought up here. I don't think it's necessary to explain what's wrong with it because everybody should know about it by now, but i can make a seperate post if it's needed. it may not be quickban worthy, but suspected at the least. it's busted and unpredictable.

I typically find the early stages of a new gen to be exactly how this comment highlights, Its very annoying and most of the kinks are going to be bashed in, AS for Hoopa U, I feel there are more checks to it in this generation such as Tapu Lele (scarfed), I would normally say bug type moves would essentially kill it in a shot, and that its not PARTICULARLY fast.... but I believe they should wait just a bit on Hoopa U, as we have other things such as the reintroduced megas (megagross, Megabro) and greninja to contend with and determine those bans first..

besides the meta wont be fully settled until about 2-3 months in... were only about what a month in? after 2 months I believe bans and suspect checks will be a unlikely occurance

 

[Cresselia92]

Its very annoying and most of the kinks are going to be bashed in, AS for Hoopa U, I feel there are more checks to it in this generation such as Tapu Lele (scarfed)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Tapu Lele is banned.

 

[RadiantLuna]

ahh, about time. But what about Hoopa-U? Hammy posted about it a couple days ago but his post seemed to be completely forgotten under the shitstorm of posts that have been deleted, (should've been) infracted, and discussion on other Pokemon. But anyways, Hoopa-Unbound is incredibly stupid, has basically no switch-ins, etc etc.. the same stuff that 6 made it suspect worthy in ORAS. I've used it extensively and have been faced up vs it a lot, and i think it deserves a round of voting on the council, or at least deserves to get brought up here. I don't think it's necessary to explain what's wrong with it because everybody should know about it by now, but i can make a seperate post if it's needed. it may not be quickban worthy, but suspected at the least. it's busted and unpredictable.

I think Hoopa-U does have a few more answers to it in Gen 7. Magearna and A-Muk are new Pokes that switch into Hoopa-U pretty easily and can counter most sets. Ghost can also check Hoopa-U with Mimikyu now which it had trouble doing previously. The meta overall has also gotten faster. The council can vote on what it wants I suppose, but Hoopa-U doesn't seem particularly broken to me so far.

 

[truedrew]

I think Hoopa-U does have a few more answers to it in Gen 7. Magearna and A-Muk are new Pokes that switch into Hoopa-U pretty easily and can counter most sets. Ghost can also check Hoopa-U with Mimikyu now which it had trouble doing previously. The meta overall has also gotten faster. The council can vote on what it wants I suppose, but Hoopa-U doesn't seem particularly broken to me so far.

It's 3 types that have hecks. 3. And you say that it's easily checked HA. T E A M M A T E S. Psychic can easily pressure all THE aforementioned mons with mega metagross and no these types apart from dark cannot check meta at all. Furthermore, specs hoopa is still a monster as I can trick to cripple all the mobs except magearna. Hoopa as a monster is OP because he is meant to be. Give it two-3 months the meta will go back to bulky offence which hoopa thrives in And then the community will get toxic and call for band so it's better to get rid of this now

 

[Wish9]

It's 3 types that have hecks. 3. And you say that it's easily checked HA. T E A M M A T E S. Psychic can easily pressure all THE aforementioned mons with mega metagross and no these types apart from dark cannot check meta at all. Furthermore, specs hoopa is still a monster as I can trick to cripple all the mobs except magearna. Hoopa as a monster is OP because he is meant to be. Give it two-3 months the meta will go back to bulky offence which hoopa thrives in And then the community will get toxic and call for band so it's better to get rid of this now

Hoopa-U IS easy to check lol. Scarf U-turn on anything is the biggest enemy to Unbound, especially with only 80 base speed. Stay in or switch out, you lose your momentum. Sure Unbound can kill something with whatever set it runs but it can't really switch-in easily unless it's against a special move or a double switch/revenge kill. Imo it's perfectly healthy in the metagame atm.

 

[Tyke]

This might not be a "pressing" issue per say given that Fire isn't a high usage or top-tier type, but having played against it a lot more these last few weeks (possibly in the aftermath of Zygarde's ban(s)) I've really noticed Zard-X is terrifying to face.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's still broken, it's severely limited by Fire's lackluster support and difficulty managing hazards, and it doesn't have the sustained defensive presence that made it overbearing on Flying IMO (it's kinda a one-shot deal), but it still is really difficult for types like Electric, Ghost, Bug, Steel, Poison, and Ice to deal with. The most relevant of those match ups could be considered Steel, Bug, and Poison which Zard can simply floor with little support, setting up on a wide variety of pokemon and proving incredibly difficult to check.

It may be something to keep in mind down-the-line.

 

[Breeze Sea]

This might not be a "pressing" issue per say given that Fire isn't a high usage or top-tier type, but having played against it a lot more these last few weeks (possibly in the aftermath of Zygarde's ban(s)) I've really noticed Zard-X is terrifying to face.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's still broken, it's severely limited by Fire's lackluster support and difficulty managing hazards, and it doesn't have the sustained defensive presence that made it overbearing on Flying IMO (it's kinda a one-shot deal), but it still is really difficult for types like Electric, Ghost, Bug, Steel, Poison, and Ice to deal with. The most relevant of those match ups could be considered Steel, Bug, and Poison which Zard can simply floor with little support, setting up on a wide variety of pokemon and proving incredibly difficult to check.

It may be something to keep in mind down-the-line.

I agree that zard x obliterates some match ups and that a few types don't have anything to deal with it after one dragon dance. It's even more terrifying with torkoal's sun support. Zard has no where near the same defensive support as it did on flying but offensively a well played fire team with torkoal's drought will dent most of your counters or checks to zard x preparing for the late game sweep. It's not affected by webs from bug and once heatran is gone char x sweeps steel with fire punch.

Right now Char x isn't broken but make sure not to sleep on it or else when dangerous team comps and memento chandelure start coming out and you get 6-0d it will be too late. (not saying memento chandelure is good just saying as time progresses the likelyhood of someone creating op sets coupled with zard x increases).

 

[readyletsgo]

So, i think we are near 2 weeks since Kartana was banned right? What are people's thoughts on Mega Metagross/Steel now? I feel like they are still overpowered. What is the argument for keeping Megagross around at this point?

 

[6ti]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/monotype/
Usage stats for the month of december are posted!
i can't figure out how to find type usage

edit: look at this post

 

[n64lord]

So, i think we are near 2 weeks since Kartana was banned right? What are people's thoughts on Mega Metagross/Steel now? I feel like they are still overpowered. What is the argument for keeping Megagross around at this point?

I'm assuming that because the intro to S/M tour cycle gave some teams a delay, it's planned to have extra rounds of quickbans on the new week that will create.

Personally I find Megametagross a lot easier to deal with than expected. I don't think people are using the best partners with it atm though and I think it will probably get more annoying as it develops.

I certainly feel that my current, flying team, my current water team, the aquasound megasharpedo team that I use whenever I lose two matches in a row , and even a couple poison,psychic,electric teams that I threw together and played no more than 8ish vs steel matches with each- were adequate to deal with it.

I would say that for me with the exception of flying and fire, megametagross was hardest to play around when it was partnered with celesteela and magearna together. Otherwise I could force the opponent to use it in a tank role rather than a clean up sweeper, which it can do when fresh, but not as well as you'd expect on the switch.

Personally I feel that steel's strong position holds down fighting(a lot), ice, dragon, dark( will probably make a recovery pending a change in the standard item set for hoopa-U), and grass. Grass in particular has newly gained options that should make it somewhat splashable against dark,normal,ghost,fighting, in addition to it's old match ups against ground/water/electric. Steel isn't holding it back from duking it out with balanced psychic/flying teams or bug/dragon for that matter, but I think it would receive more middle of the pack recognition than it currently gets if not for the threat of randomly being picked apart by a steel core. Ground is also in a bad laddering position, but I've seen it used to great effect in tournies.

A big part of what I feel lets metagross be played around can be found by in its moveset data-

1760
Spreads | | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 79.438% | | Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 10.447% | | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 10.114% | +----------------------------------------+ | Moves | | Zen Headbutt 100.000% | | Meteor Mash 100.000% | | Earthquake 94.969% | | Ice Punch 46.348% | | Bullet Punch 35.318% | | Thunder Punch 23.365% | | Other 0.000%

1500
Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 72.927% | | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 18.640% | | Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 8.434% | +----------------------------------------+ | Moves | | Zen Headbutt 100.000% | | Meteor Mash 100.000% | | Earthquake 93.368% | | Ice Punch 50.711% | | Bullet Punch 33.864% | | Thunder Punch 22.057% | | Other 0.000%

It's relatively easy to tell what options metagross has from team preview. Fear of grass knot,hammer arm, etc is much lower than it is in OU.

I think the fact that 108 and 110 base speed pokemon have not declined as much as predicted also shows that meta gross's influence is smaller than it should be, especially given the coverage they seem to be running.

Keldeo is still 5th, 1st, and 3rd, in the 1500,1630,1760 respectively, which makes water look shockingly resilient to having to adapt. Other pokemon vulnerable to being creeped and targeted by meta's favorite coverage like lando-I also refuse to decline.

 

[n64lord]

Also, I really hope I'm reading the flying type stats wrong because- crobat-

Edit: apparenltly poison and flying crobat stats were combined, so it makes sense for it to have appeared high, it's a very legitimate pokemon for poison, especially as a stall breaker.

I'm also baffled that thundurus incarnate rivals skarmory in usage and thunderous therian is so out of favor.

I understand that cross poisoning tapu koko sounds good. And I myself assumed most koko would only invest to outspeed 120s or so, but if you check the moveset data for fairy and electric, you will see that over 70% of koko run max timid anyway; preventing crobat from speed creeping them.

Additionally winning the speed tie means nothing without band, so this niche set (which is at least aimed at a major threat) is currently pointless. Nevermind that they should see it coming and give mageearna/magnezone a free switch in respectively.

252 Atk Crobat Cross Poison vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

sludge bomb thundurus-therian just seems better for this job in every way. It can live a LO dazzling gleam or or HP ice if it has too....

 

[scpinion]

The type stats are wrong at the moment. They correspond to the last ~500 battles on the old ladder. As soon as everything is fixed I'll update my site and post here. Pokemon usage that isn't separated by type: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/gen7monotype-1630.txt

In the meantime, you can look at the type usage stats here: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/metagame/gen7monotype-1630.txt

if you don't care about changing the weighting or the other stuff there:

monosteel.....................13.71874%
monoelectric.................. 7.43507%
monowater..................... 7.25093%
monobug....................... 7.19993%
monopoison.................... 6.68165%
monodark...................... 6.40021%
monofairy..................... 6.10419%
monoflying.................... 6.03066%
monopsychic................... 5.54817%
monofire...................... 5.21138%
monoground.................... 4.85800%
mononormal.................... 4.31377%
monoghost..................... 3.72068%
monoice....................... 3.68719%
monograss..................... 3.42424%
monodragon.................... 3.15252%
monofighting.................. 2.76030%
monorock...................... 2.50566%

 

[Jo' Z]

Also, I really hope I'm reading the flying type stats wrong because- crobat-

I'm also baffled that thundurus incarnate rivals skarmory in usage and thunderous therian is so out of favor.

I understand that cross poisoning tapu koko sounds good. And I myself assumed most koko would only invest to outspeed 120s or so, but if you check the moveset data for fairy and electric, you will see that over 70% of koko run max timid anyway; preventing crobat from speed creeping them.

Additionally winning the speed tie means nothing without band, so this niche set (which is at least aimed at a major threat) is currently pointless. Nevermind that they should see it coming and give mageearna/magnezone a free switch in respectively.

252 Atk Crobat Cross Poison vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

sludge bomb thundurus-therian just seems better for this job in every way. It can live a LO dazzling gleam or or HP ice if it has too....

It's probably best you don't look at the overall usage stats and only the higher ladder ones because low ladder is a scary place and the usage down there doesn't really make sense. Furthermore, Thundurus-Therian has been a dead mon on Flying Monotype for quite a while though it still does have use as an Elec absorber, and there is pretty much no merit in running Crobat - or Poison coverage for that matter - on Flying.

Edit: Rip, I'll just leave this here regardless of the stats being wrong.

 

[scpinion]

I'm not posting on behalf of the council, just sharing some of my own thoughts on various topics.

Usage Stats
Steel is really popular, but we knew that was coming. Those stats say nothing about the current metagame to be honest. They just tell us that Steel was far and away the best type since the Gen7 Monotype ladder went up. During that time we banned Aegislash, Genesect, and Kartana. Next month will be more informative.

To give you a sense for how skewed they are b/c of teams from before the "current" metagame: Kartana was 20th on the combined usage list despite getting banned on Dec 18th. That's more usage than Char-Y, Landorus, and Mega Sableye for the entire month.

What's Next?
I think the metagame is "ok" (not good, not great, just ok). We can play it competitively in tournaments at this point. It is starting to centralize around a couple top tier types so people know what to build for. However, there are still Pokemon that are very good, potentially too good. I'm still unsure of whether we're ready to shift from council decisions and discussion in this thread to suspect tests.

What Pokemon?
Greninja: Protean Ninja does the same stuff it did last gen. It is fast and strong, but frail. Dark and Water defensive cores can still do a very good job supporting it, though.
Mega Metagross: I personally want to wait on this. I think there are other things to look at on Psychic and I want to see how the metagame evolves around the current 'mons Steel regularly utilizes.
Mega Slowbro: I'm leaning towards a community suspect for this. I just don't think it is bad enough for us to quickban it.
Hoopa-U: It is still stupidly strong. Here's some calcs that I think put its power into perspective in the gen7 metagame:

Banded Hoopa's Hyperspce Fury vs. Garchomp's Tectonic Rage (Ground Z-move), just using Swampert as a reference to compare the damage output.

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 228-268 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The point: Banded Hoopa-U's STAB attacks naturally hit as hard as Z-Moves from common offensive Pokemon. That...and the Specs set hits just as hard from the special side. I know I'm echoing a couple people's posts from earlier (Shadestep, maybe?), but seriously, I don't think this thing is good to have in the metagame. For some reason we've just gotten used to it.

Just an Aside
This post made me really happy. Someone "new" came into the community, looked at the metagame and reacted/built their team in accordance with what was popular. Unsurprisingly, they had some success. High 1500s on the ladder with Ice isn't shabby at all.

 

[Tyke]

I agree with Hoopa-U being an suspect-worthy presence.

It's an absurd wallbreaker that both Psychic and Dark can support well, especially the latter now that it isn't necessary for Dark to run scarf-hole to check sub-cm keldeo (whose fallen entirely off the map) and the re-introduction of mega-leye to Dark's defensive backbone. I thought it was broken back in gen 6, and although it's being held back a bit by the offensive nature of the current meta-game, the only difference is the introduction of at least one hard switch in, Magearna (and arguably alola muk). Unlike other threats, teams don't build to respond to Hoopa-U, because there is no response to Hoopa-U. The best most teams can do is attempt to revenge it and often by then it's done it's job.

I think Scpinion is right in saying "We've gotten used to it". If it had been introduced this generation, I'm sure it'd even have been a topic for quickbanning. That's not to say I think that we should quickban it, obviously, but between it's insane power and versatility I agree it deserves closer inspection.

 

[Omega-Xis]

Hoopa-U IS easy to check lol. Scarf U-turn on anything is the biggest enemy to Unbound, especially with only 80 base speed. Stay in or switch out, you lose your momentum. Sure Unbound can kill something with whatever set it runs but it can't really switch-in easily unless it's against a special move or a double switch/revenge kill. Imo it's perfectly healthy in the metagame atm.

Please don't use this as an argument, or, at the very least, go down a list of viable Scarf U-Turners for every type if you're going to even mention it.

Besides, what does this even add? Just go tell Fairy/Rock/Ice mains to slap HP Fire on everything to "instantly make that mon the biggest enemy to Scizor," I'm sure they'd be really happy to hear it.

 

[DoW]

Hoopa-U: It is still stupidly strong. Here's some calcs that I think put its power into perspective in the gen7 metagame:

Banded Hoopa's Hyperspce Fury vs. Garchomp's Tectonic Rage (Ground Z-move), just using Swampert as a reference to compare the damage output.

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 228-268 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The point: Banded Hoopa-U's STAB attacks naturally hit as hard as Z-Moves from common offensive Pokemon. That...and the Specs set hits just as hard from the special side. I know I'm echoing a couple people's posts from earlier (Shadestep, maybe?), but seriously, I don't think this thing is good to have in the metagame. For some reason we've just gotten used to it.

Just an Aside
This post made me really happy. Someone "new" came into the community, looked at the metagame and reacted/built their team in accordance with what was popular. Unsurprisingly, they had some success. High 1500s on the ladder with Ice isn't shabby at all.

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 306-360 (76.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously to some extent I'm playing devil's advocate here, it's quite clear that the two aren't entirely comparable. Despite this, I think the comparison has a few good points that I'd like to expand on:
Firstly, as Breeze Sea pointed out (:P) KyuB is perfectly capable of running a very solid primarily special set, and while I don't know the current meta very well I'd be highly surprised if Dragon weren't capable of supporting KyuB.
Secondly, I think that if KyuB were a gen 7 pokemon there would have been quite a bit of concern over it, what with base 170 Atk, a generally-uber statline, and Fusion Bolt for near-perfect coverage. Perhaps this is another mon we've become used to?

I certainly don't know enough about gen 7 monotype to come to a good conclusion on how broken Hoopa-u is. However, I can confidently state that if it should be banned, it should be banned for its effects on the metagame as a whole, rather than simply hitting as hard as a Z-move. For that reason, I'd vote in favour of waiting to see how the metagame evolves around it, rather than suspecting it now.

 

[readyletsgo]

Have we really reached the point where we need to wait on Megagross though? Everyone I talk to wants it gone. What is the argument for staying any longer?

 

[Tyke]

Please don't use this as an argument, or, at the very least, go down a list of viable Scarf U-Turners for every type if you're going to even mention it.

I'd love to hear the scarf-U-turn option for Ghost, unless you plan to use Oricorrio :P

But more to the point, it's not that scarf u-turn or other strong and fast physical attackers don't check Hoopa-U: they do. But claiming they stop Hoopa-U from being broken shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Hoopa-U unhealthy in the metagame.

EDIT:
It's Hoopa's insane power, versatility, and unpredictability coupled with excellent support on both it's types that makes it suspect-worthy in the metagame, not a lack of checks on any type (because almost every type has common ones). "Checks" don't remove Hoopa-U from the equation as both Dark and Psychic have a strong defensive backbone to cover Hoopa-U's weaknesses and keep it healthy to dismantle balanced, defensive, and bulky offensive cores with ease.

Sorry if original post was stumpy.

 

[vlmufa]

Have we really reached the point where we need to wait on Megagross though? Everyone I talk to wants it gone. What is the argument for staying any longer?

Honestly I just have to call you out on this one. "What's the argument for staying any longer?". Well what's the argument of not? Please I think we would all love some constructive discussion and why you think it should be banned. I think just because everyone doesn't like it doesn't mean it should be banned, and we have learned that through other suspects on other mons before. I'm not leaning on any specific side but please be detailed.

 

[savanah]

Speaking of versatile wallbreakers with little to no switch ins, xurktree has been a huge issue for a lot of my teams. Its absurdly high spa and usable speed makes up for its limited coverage, and it can run scarf, hypnosis, tail glow etc. Electric definitely has the tools to support it, with webs, rocks, defog, and electric terrain which make it threatening against stall, balance and offense. If you don't carry an electric immunity, this thing does heavy damage to basically your entire team. Im not sure if its suspect worthy, because its definitely not essential to be run on an electric team, but the amount of trouble that it gives certain teams makes me wonder why its not used more.

Also,

Secondly, I think that if KyuB were a gen 7 pokemon there would have been quite a bit of concern over it, what with base 170 Atk, a generally-uber statline, and Fusion Bolt for near-perfect coverage. Perhaps this is another mon we've become used to?

It also gets a good ability that lets it break mons like rotom-w and mega venu. This is interesting, but I think the main difference between this and the argument against hoopa-u isnt the ammount of coverage or power either gets, its the amount of sets they can run. Kyurem-b really only runs orb or scarf, but unbound has scarf, band, specs, orb, sub, etc and a lot more coverage. Ive switched swampert into a hoopa-u thinking I could tank at least one hit, only to get an eball thrown at me too many times to admit. Either way, hoopa's unpredictability sets it apart in my eyes.

 

[G-Luke]

Speaking of versatile wallbreakers with little to no switch ins, xurktree has been a huge issue for a lot of my teams. Its absurdly high spa and usable speed makes up for its limited coverage, and it can run scarf, hypnosis, tail glow etc. Electric definitely has the tools to support it, with webs, rocks, defog, and electric terrain which make it threatening against stall, balance and offense. If you don't carry an electric immunity, this thing does heavy damage to basically your entire team. Im not sure if its suspect worthy, because its definitely not essential to be run on an electric team, but the amount of trouble that it gives certain teams makes me wonder why its not used more.

Also,


It also gets a good ability that lets it break mons like rotom-w and mega venu. This is interesting, but I think the main difference between this and the argument against hoopa-u isnt the ammount of coverage or power either gets, its the amount of sets they can run. Kyurem-b really only runs orb or scarf, but unbound has scarf, band, specs, orb, sub, etc and a lot more coverage. Ive switched swampert into a hoopa-u thinking I could tank at least one hit, only to get an eball thrown at me too many times to admit. Either way, hoopa's unpredictability sets it apart in my eyes.

Kyube can run Sub sets very well.

But guys, another thing I wanted to bring up. Do you think we were too hasty on quickbanning Pheromosa? Every meta wanted it quickbanned initially, but now as the metagame developed, it been proven to be overhyped (but still powerful). Any chance it gets reintroduced in Monotype?