OU SM OU Discussion Thread

No idea why we are even considering Darkrai in SM OU. NP Darkrai is basically SD Kartana but much faster and bulkier. Therefore, it would kill Balance playstyle as a whole and force the meta to be even more HO-centric. Moreover, Darkrai's movepool is ridiculous with the access to incredible utility moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Trick or Knock Off. Thus, on top of NP 3A having no real check/counter, Scarf/Specs and Bulky Utility sets would be viable and strong. Everything about this pokemon is stupidly broken and not even Magearna would save you from Darkrai if it was a thing in SM OU.
 
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DIYUSI said:
No idea why we are even considering Darkrai in SM OU. NP Darkrai is basically SD Kartana but much faster and bulkier. Therefore, it would kill Balance playstyle as a whole and force the meta to be even more HO-centric. Moreover, Darkrai's movepool is ridiculous with the access to incredible utility moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Trick or Knock Off. Thus, on top of NP 3A having no real check/counter, Scarf/Specs and Bulky Utility sets would be viable and strong. Everything about this pokemon is stupidly broken and not even Magearna would save you from Darkrai if it was a thing in SM OU.
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This is a exaggeration Magearna is the best mon in the tier Darkrai would still be broken but idt it would do all that lmfao
 
Maktyum said:
Firstly, I question how a Pokémon like that could be labeled as having a limited movepool. It already boasts access to the highly spammable Dark Pulse, can utilize Sludge Bomb against Fairy types, and has the option of running Focus Blast and Bolt Beam while doubling its Special Attack twice. This alone highlights its potential drawbacks on the tier.

As PapaMax pointed out, the inclusion of Knock Off in its moveset is incredibly powerful, shutting down Pokémon that you consider long-term checks. With these versatile options, Darkrai can easily select its checks without sacrificing much, not to mention its array of support moves. Simply opting for Z-Dark Pulse or Z-Thunder/Thunderbolt provides ample firepower to overcome numerous obstacles.


As for the bulk argument, darkrai is bulky enough to be dangerous and not just a glass cannon. It is bulkier than greninja (while being faster) and tapu Koko, and those mons are not particularly easy to revenge kill. In the case of gren or Koko, you either got a scarf/a naturally faster mon (which is limited to zam, punny, Koko mainly since you need to activate battle bond for gren so I don’t consider it) or a wall to get rid of them. But for darkrai, how is it sustainable when the only way is to revenge kill it with faster mons, since its coverage just get rid of the wall possibility lmao?!
As for the priority argument:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 102-126 (36.1 - 44.6%) -- approx. 3HKO
0+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 111-132 (39.3 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Also just to come back to this, power creep is much more important in Gen9 and can’t be compared to even Gen7 with just overall extraordinary new Pokemon that can compete with it.

So I think Darkrai would not be a healthy addition to the tier due to how it can overwhelm what would be answers and how it would wrap teambuilding.
If there was a change to do to the tier, it would be to ban volcarona:fukyu:
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I still believe Darkrai would be completely broken in the tier, and my reasoning (outlined above) hasn't changed at all. The argument that Magearna being so dominant would naturally keep Darkrai in check feels flawed to me. In reality, Darkrai would force us to run Assault Vest Magearna constantly, warping the entire metagame, just to avoid taking a minimum of 80% from +2 Z-Thunder (which still does ~50% with AV and that’s already a lot!).
Even then, Assault Vest isn’t a reliable long-term answer since Darkrai can run Knock Off. And with a bit of luck, Darkrai can bypass Magearna entirely, either by putting it to sleep or burning it with Will-O-Wisp, essentially putting it on a timer.
The sheer number of strategies Darkrai has at its disposal is overwhelming: absurd coverage, multiple viable Z-move sets, Sleep, Burn, Substitute, Trick, Taunt and the list goes on. Combined with its inherent traits (Speed, Special Attack, and decent bulk), and it becomes clear that Darkrai is simply too much for the tier to handle.
I genuinely don’t understand the push to bring such a Pokémon into the tier, aside of being bored with already having to account for 50+ viable OU threats lol
 
Maktyum said:
I still believe Darkrai would be completely broken in the tier, and my reasoning (outlined above) hasn't changed at all. The argument that Magearna being so dominant would naturally keep Darkrai in check feels flawed to me. In reality, Darkrai would force us to run Assault Vest Magearna constantly, warping the entire metagame, just to avoid taking a minimum of 80% from +2 Z-Thunder (which still does ~50% with AV and that’s already a lot!).
Even then, Assault Vest isn’t a reliable long-term answer since Darkrai can run Knock Off. And with a bit of luck, Darkrai can bypass Magearna entirely, either by putting it to sleep or burning it with Will-O-Wisp, essentially putting it on a timer.
The sheer number of strategies Darkrai has at its disposal is overwhelming: absurd coverage, multiple viable Z-move sets, Sleep, Burn, Substitute, Trick, Taunt and the list goes on. Combined with its inherent traits (Speed, Special Attack, and decent bulk), and it becomes clear that Darkrai is simply too much for the tier to handle.
I genuinely don’t understand the push to bring such a Pokémon into the tier, aside of being bored with already having to account for 50+ viable OU threats lol
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Darkrai would literally just make every team run koko + Magearna which they kinda do anyway but why take away diversity in the tier
 
Funny that people would noticed my old post but it's true that Darkrai would be too much for the tier, it was before I thought it would be fine since we have others powerhouse in the tier. The only uber I can considerate now would be Deoxys-D, I really think he could have his places in the tier despite his speed with stealth rock. And after seing how he perform in gen 8 and 9 and how he has quite of many potential counter, it could be inetresting to test it one day but I think I will open that old debate about deoxys being available since gen 5.
 
The metagame is in a shift rn. It is true that it feels decentralized right now but as with any older generation, this likely won't last. Historically, SM has always gravitated back toward a more defined meta over time. It is unfortunate that balance has seen a major drop in usage in favor of offense since everything is so strong. That said, I don't think this offensive-heavy state is permanent and arguably, it’s not even the proof of an unhealthy metagame to begin with.

Regarding Landorus Incarnate, I doubt it would be healthy for the metagame. Similar to Darkrai, it has an extremely wide and unpredictable movepool, allowing it to run a variety of sets that are difficult to consistently prepare for. Moreover in the thread you mention, zomog’s answer was pretty accurate, no one in the council supported when this was brought up one year ago, and none of the qualified players or survey were in favor or supported a Lando-I test while the metagame was already decentralized.

SMPL tested Aegislash and Mega Metagross, and it proved to be a disaster for the metagame...it was overcentralizing with a metagame that consisted in weather war and huge drop in diversity that was damaging to the tier.
I understand the appeal of a more centralized metagame, it makes teambuilding for balance and fat structures more manageable by narrowing the pool of threats to account for. But we need to be cautious not to overcorrect by reintroducing a mon like Landorus-I, which risks overcentralizing the tier to the point that many existing strategies and Pokemon become unviable.

On a more personnal opinion, a better approach might be to remove some threats that don't contribute meaningfully to the tier’s long-term integrity. Take Manaphy, for example: it fits only a narrow playstyle, yet it forces extensive prep during teambuilding since rain is so popular and successful. This kind of threat adds stress without enriching the metagame, and pruning such Pokemon could help organically guide the meta toward a more stable, centralized state. But even without intervention, I am quite convinced the metagame will find itself in a more centralized state naturally as it keeps evolving, because an old generation is never fully solved.
 
Maktyum said:
The metagame is in a shift rn. It is true that it feels decentralized right now but as with any older generation, this likely won't last. Historically, SM has always gravitated back toward a more defined meta over time. It is unfortunate that balance has seen a major drop in usage in favor of offense since everything is so strong. That said, I don't think this offensive-heavy state is permanent and arguably, it’s not even the proof of an unhealthy metagame to begin with.

Regarding Landorus Incarnate, I doubt it would be healthy for the metagame. Similar to Darkrai, it has an extremely wide and unpredictable movepool, allowing it to run a variety of sets that are difficult to consistently prepare for. Moreover in the thread you mention, zomog answers was pretty accurate, no one in the council supported when this was brought up one year ago, and none of the qualified players or survey were in favor or supported a Lando-I test while the metagame was already decentralized.

SMPL tested Aegislash and Mega Metagross, and it proved to be a disaster for the metagame...it was overcentralizing with a metagame that consisted in weather war and huge drop in diversity that was damaging to the tier.
I understand the appeal of a more centralized metagame, it makes teambuilding for balance and fat structures more manageable by narrowing the pool of threats to account for. But we need to be cautious not to overcorrect by reintroducing a mon like Landorus-I, which risks overcentralizing the tier to the point that many existing strategies and Pokemon become unviable.

On a more personnal opinion, a better approach might be to remove some threats that don't contribute meaningfully to the tier’s long-term integrity. Take Manaphy, for example: it fits only a narrow playstyle, yet it forces extensive prep during teambuilding since rain is so popular and successful. This kind of threat adds stress without enriching the metagame, and pruning such Pokemon could help organically guide the meta toward a more stable, centralized state. But even without intervention, I am quite convinced the metagame will find itself in a more centralized state naturally as it keeps evolving, because on old generation is never fully solved.
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What do you think of Deoxys-D?
 
Charmflash said:
Personally I would like to see more centralization in this metagame. I made a post about revising the Lando-I quickban and suspect testing it instead here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/reviewing-the-sm-ou-lando-i-quickban.3738210/ but I will take anything at this point. Aegislash, Darkrai MMeta you name it
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Why would this make the metagame better? The current problem is that there is too much to cover so it’s better to spam weather / ho, how would any of these help
 
zinnias said:
Why would this make the metagame better? The current problem is that there is too much to cover so it’s better to spam weather / ho, how would any of these help
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If there is too much to cover you want players to have less options or feel the need to include certain pokemon because that leaves less room for random mons to be brought, on top of those mons struggling to compete. Its simple power creeping and would undoubtedly reduce variety

Maktyum said:
On a more personnal opinion, a better approach might be to remove some threats that don't contribute meaningfully to the tier’s long-term integrity. Take Manaphy, for example: it fits only a narrow playstyle, yet it forces extensive prep during teambuilding since rain is so popular and successful. This kind of threat adds stress without enriching the metagame, and pruning such Pokemon could help organically guide the meta toward a more stable, centralized state. But even without intervention, I am quite convinced the metagame will find itself in a more centralized state naturally as it keeps evolving, because an old generation is never fully solved.
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I agreed with you on manaphy 6 years ago and I still agree today. That Pokemon demands a unique type of answer on a lot of teams, and adds to the situation of you being unable to cover everything to an acceptable degree in this tier. As for your approach as a whole I think it can also work but Id personally prefer a Lando-I test to it still.
 
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Maxicheese said:
What do you think of Deoxys-D?
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Similar to Darkrai, I think this should say banned. All four Deoxys Formes are incredibly powerful entry hazard setters, and this was notably the last generation without Heavy-Duty Boots to help against them. One would think that Deoxys-D’s low base HP, weaknesses to common moves like Knock Off and U-Turn, and the insanely high power level of the tier would help keep it “balanced”, but again with the Darkrai comparison, that doesn’t mean we should bring back either of those Pokémon even if they’re not individually “broken” because of the effects they would have on the team builder. Deoxys-D might actually make offensive structures even stronger than they already are, too, to say nothing of the nightmare that would be trying to break through Deoxys-D + Mega Sableye stall cores.
 
Charmflash said:
If there is too much to cover you want players to have less options or feel the need to include certain pokemon because that leaves less room for random mons to be brought, on top of those mons struggling to compete. Its simple power creeping and would undoubtedly reduce variety
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But as you say yourself in the original, Lando-I suffers against extreme playstyles, so any shift made to deal with Lando-I would only reduce variety by exacerbating their usage and shift the tier closer to rock/paper/scissors
 
zinnias said:
But as you say yourself in the original, Lando-I suffers against extreme playstyles, so any shift made to deal with Lando-I would only reduce variety by exacerbating their usage and shift the tier closer to rock/paper/scissors
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Better than Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock. Besides, you can put a bit of Rock and a bit of Paper on your team in this game
 
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