Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Well, it will be my first own nomination, so I hope it's realistic in the current metagame and you guys agree with it.

: B- -> B

So, I supose everyone here knows its power and how facing it is at least disgusting to a great portion of the balance teams/cores. Things like Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko (one of its best partners btw), Toxapex, Clefable, Zapdos, even the uprising Magnezone give this monster a free switch/nuke, and all of the mons I have listed are at least B+ rank. One of the issues it had in the past months was Dugtrio, who could trap it after a kill. Now, without Arena Trap in the meta, this thing can demolishes everything that doesn't resist its moves almost freely in the right conditions.

The other reason is the same as the newest update, using the case of Victini: I think it fits better in a higger subrank. It's way too far from the same level of Megas like Manectric or Slowbro or mons like Azumarill, wich I haven't seen for a while in the ladder.

So, summing up: It still can destroy fat cores like before, and it's even better without the mole, besides its superiority over other Megas in the same rank of it. Thank you for reading :)
I completely agree with this nomination. I want to add some points.
Magearna has been running fairium z to beat alolawak. Magearnas new calm mind set can also freely set up in front of one of its best checks, mega venusaur. The camel, along with chansey are the best magearna answers in the tier.
The camel is also one of choice specs Tapu kokos best answers, which is huge because with Choice specs tapu kokos rise, camperupt has many more oppurtunities to wallbreak.
Finally, camperupt is also way less matchup reliant than azumarill and manetric. Camperupt should definitely rise.
Edit: My b, magearna still doesn't beat mega venu then, sorry.
 
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Bit outta the blue here but Azumarill B- -> C+

In all honesty I'd probably have this lower but I guess someone sees the value of this mon? Azu was one of my favourites to use in gen 6, but it;s super underwhelming in the current metagame. I started using it recently thinking it might be a hidden gem but it's absolutely pure crap.

The general gist is that it cannot safely get a belly drum off in most matches; nearly everything seems to have a way of beating it. Recently certain grass types have begun rising in usage in Kartana, Mega Venusaur and Bulu, both of whom severely dent Azu's viability, being unable to break either of them. Toxapex is still pretty popular who can consistently spam haze to prevent being beaten; while unaware clef is still the king of stall and Azu being forced to run waterfall and then flinch to beat it. Tapu Lele is still everpresent and that mon alone prevents azumarill from being able to sweep late game.

You may think that this is saved by its defensive utility, but in reality, despite having a pretty cool typing (resisting dark, water, ice and fighting is pretty neat) you cannot switch it into anything all game because you need it at full health due to almost certainly having to take a hit before going for belly drum (presuming Normalium), or in order to survive for its sitrus. And even so, pokemon like Ash Greninja can actually comfortably 2HKO. I suppose the popularity of Heatran, especially now they're not running Bloom Doom, and scarf Latios helps it, but it just takes too much work to succeed.

I'll admit I've not used CB so if that's a good enough set (I'll be shocked if it is) then by all means tell me and I'll consider my position. But yeah, basically the lack of passivity within the tier makes Azu's job of setting up that much harder and we currently have enough defensive options to deal with it even if it does.
 
Magearnas new calm mind set can also freely set up in front of one of its best checks, mega venusaur. The camel, along with chansey are the best magearna answers in the tier.
Thats not true, first, magearnas calm mind/shift gear set is not new it has been standard for months now being the most used set. and second, venusaur always runs eq nowadays to beat cm mag and heatran so they both cant switch in on it, so mag still cant beat venu

I agree with the rest of your nomination though
 
I am real new to ou(tho I'm on rank 1625)
I propose to send mega-alakazam to A-

Its special attack can be underwhelming at times but with stall nearly gone, mega alakazam likes the less use of mega sab etc.

It along with tapu lele can dismantle HO teams bar scarfers above base 80 speed.
The resurgence of mega venusaur has also been kind to mega-alakazam
It also sits on a really nice speed tier and it also gets calm mind to destroy even more threats along with its ability to live some special hits really make it a very nice mon
This is my first post on ou so pls don't hate on me and also I have no replays currently but will edit my post with repays when I get some.

Edit:Increase in use of magnezone also helps Zam deal with mons such as celesteela and maybe AV Magearna
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A+ ---> S
B ---> B+
C+ ---> B

Drops
A ---> A-
B+ ---> B
C- ---> UR
C- ---> UR


  • Okay before someone posts "Why is Pex the same rank as Lando-T and Magearna who can run like 5 different sets and can sweep teams while Pex's only attacking move is Scald REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" please read this post first. Try not to compare Pex so much to Magearna or Lando-T because for one thing, Lando-t is retarded, let's be honest, but both of those Pokemon are S rank mostly for their offensive capabilities. OU hasn't really had a Pokemon in S rank purely for its defensive capabilities in a long time, hell, Clefable in ORAS doesn't even count because it ran Calm Mind. Toxapex is S rank because it defines balance and defensive utility in the OU tier. T Spikes are more common than they've ever been in the history of OU, and that's pretty much all thanks to Pex. T Spikes are a defining presence in the meta, capable of making certain set up sweepers such as Suicune, Bulu, Kartana, Zygarde, Magearna, and hell, even just Sub Heatran, massive threats. It basically forces most teams to have a hazard remover or absorber otherwise you will almost 100% lose to a well played Pex. On top of it centralizing the meta around T Spikes, Pex is also a massive team building constraint on its own, because of how insanely difficult it is to break and how between its own T-Spikes, Toxic, and all its recovery options, it's able to just solo so many Pokemon late-game, and blanket check a massive portion of the meta. Its massive bulk and Regen ability allows it to just blindly pivot into basically anything to scout for sets, so not even Pokemon like Extrasensory Greninja can properly lure it. It almost single handedly makes Balance a viable playstyle, because of how it keeps so many Pokemon that could normally overpower balance. While it's not extremely versatile nor sweeping teams like Lando-t or Magearna, its ability to single handedly centralize the meta around preparing for T spikes as well as being one of the most solid answers to so many Pokemon in the tier, as well as defining a very strong playstyle atm as well as being used on some stall teams, make it worthy of the rank. It's just such a dumb Pokemon lol, and it stands out from the rest of A+. Phew.
  • Zard-X has seen quite a lot of success recently in Snake for its 3 Attacks Roost set, which is capable of breaking through most defensive cores being used on balance, such as Clef, Mew, Mega Venu, Ferro, Pex, etc. A lot of Landorus-Ts running offensive sets allow Zard-X to spam Flare Blitz and 2HKO most of them on the switch, and with Roost is doesn't have to worry about preserving its health. DD, while not as effective, is still decent as well because of its ability to use shit like Mew as setup fodder, as well as OHKOing offensive Lando-T after a boost.
  • Quagsire has become a staple on stall teams with Dugtrio gone, as it is important for dealing with many offensive Pokemon that threaten stall without Dugtrio, such as CB Tyranitar, Zard-X, non Specs Koko, Marowak, and Heatran to an extent.
  • Zapdos has dropped because meta trends are currently not in its favor. CB T-tar is fucking everywhere now which basically switches into Zapdos for free, Kyurem-B is a very dangerous balance breaker that also doesn't really give a shit about it gets invited in, Heatran is super popular still, and Kartana also run SD Darkium sets to break through it. Still a solid Pokemon, but not A worthy.
  • Marowak is usually only seen on TR, because it's a very awkward Pokemon to fit onto a team. It's still extremely strong, but its stallbreaking abilities are less needed now that Duggy is banned, and more stalls run Quagsire now.
  • Conkeldurr was originally ranked for its small niche on some Aurora Veil builds, but with Veil falling heavily out of favor recently, there is even less of a reason to run Conk on an already niche playstyle. All Veil teams seen these days don't usually run it.
  • Buzzwole is the ultimate paper Pokemon but actually usually does legit nothing in practice. A lot of the Pokemon it's supposed to wall can blast through it with coverage, or can beat it with T Spikes up. Basically, Buzzwole requires hazard removal or an absorber in order to check the Pokemon it's supposed to check, which it can't check reliably anyway because of coverage or Z moves. Yea that's probably why it literally never gets used lmao. Too much opportunity cost for a very low reward.

Toxapex A+ to S: All agreed except one who still didn't mind
Kartana A to A+: 50/50 split
Zapdos A to A-: All agreed
Marowak B+ to B: All agreed except one
Zard X B to B+: All agreed
Mega Camel B- to B: Most disagreed
Quagsire C+ to B-/B: Most said B
Azumaril B- to C+: Most disagreed or didn't care
Empoleon C- to UR: Most disagreed
Conkeldurr C- to UR: All agreed except one
Buzzwole C- to UR: All agreed except one


Sorry no discussion slate this time. Not much discussion on other mons.
 
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I agree with Pex in S. It's just really good and hard to beat, it takes no damage on neutral hits and even most super effective hits will 2-3HKO it at best. Scald allows it to get chip and burn on pokemon so your wincon can sweep more easily late game. T spikes is just amazing with most sweepers such as Zyg. Zyg in specific can just sub and protect to stall out pokemon while they take damage from toxic. I think this idea that a pokemon must be offensive to be S rank is BS, it's just so centralizing right now and deserves this rank. In teambuilding one question that's usually on my mind when selecting a pivot or hazard setter is "Can Toxapex do this?" Which, yes, it can.
 
Toxapex
is
S
WORST TIME FOR DISCORD TO BE DOWN WTF
But anyways, now for discussion:
Really these upper ranks are fine. Right now outside of Kartana up I can't really think of much to change.
As I said in Discord, Thundurus-Therian should go down. It's this weird middleman between Koko and Zapdos. Koko alone literally outdoes it in just about everything, making its only niche dual dance. Realistically, though, it's not getting 2 boosts - 1 at best. If you go the nasty plot way, Koko is still better. If you go the Agility way, I'd much rather use Agility Zapdos, which is a better late-game cleaner overall with better coverage and bulk to boot. It's also worth noting that unless you go Fightinium Z - which leaves you walled by Landorus-Therian - Kyurem-Black just comes in for free. Thundurus-Therian really doesn't have much of a unique niche in this meta and it should just drop.
Also, for literally all of the reasons I've been posting almost every week, UR BRELOOM. This nomination seems to be quite popular in the discord server because it's honestly just shit and IDK - no one knows, really - why it's still ranked at all.
I'll write more later, tired rn T_T.
 
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Anyways, Charizard y really needs to go down to B. The meta is shifting more towards offense, which charizard y really struggles with because of how easy it is to pressure with rocks and faster pokemon. Not to mention even when it does find a balance team, it can't even do anything because of toxapex. On stall there is also toxapex, but there is also chansey. Charizard y usage has really gone down like a rocket after the arena trap ban for a reason. I guess it's good against AV and Webs, but both have really fallen off thanks diancies influence in the tier. Speaking of that, diancie being the best mega in the tier also really hurts charizard, diancie can even switch in, though no more than once.
Charizard y is just really hard to justify using rn, and its ranking should reflect that.
Thundurus t and breeloom should drop as well. If you want reasoning, look at the post above me.
 
to A
Recently, it's been shown that Protean Greninja isn't exactly the power house it once was. Right now, it has a useful job at setting up spikes, and even being a pivot scarfer in a few situations. However, it's older offensive sets, with moves like Hydro, Gunk Shot, and Ice Beam, aren't exactly as useful in this current meta. Also, it's been seen that Ash Greninja has even run Spikes over Ice Beam, which isn't a bad option as well, further proving that Protean Ninja's main set isn't exactly 100% required. However, Greninja does have access to moves that help against other leads and defoggers, like Taunt. Taunt is the move that's really keeping Greninja in A+, but I don't feel it's enough, since it's other 3 sets are A-deserving sets.

While Taunt is a really good hazard setting set, I feel that because it gets up hazards on almost everything in the tier, it shouldn't really be the only thing keeping it A+. Other hazard setters in the tier perform other roles other than setting hazards, such as Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. Like I mentioned before, the other 3 sets that it has are definitely A sets, like 3 attack Spikes and Scarf.

Speaking of the Scarf set, the main issue I have with it is all it does is simply pivot out, as well as revenge kill Volcarona. Other OU scarfers such as Latios has a decent damage out put, but Scarf Greninja doesn't seem to have this. It appears redundant outside of it's small niche of checking Volc, which hasn't been as common recently has before. Also, the 3 attacks Spikes set has a hard time dealing with Pokemon like Toxapex and Ferro, which check Spikes Greninja if it doesn't have Taunt.

So, all in all, Greninja isn't quite fit for the meta like it was before. It's Life Orb sets don't really work, and the two remaining sets it does have aren't exactly fit for A+. Taunt Spikes is a very effective set, but the problem is is that it's other sets keep it from staying A+. So, for that, Greninja should be A.

This is probably going to be a very controversial topic from what I've seen, so I'd love to hear your feedback. If there's anything I may have missed, please let me know.
 
to A
Recently, it's been shown that Protean Greninja isn't exactly the power house it once was. Right now, it has a useful job at setting up spikes, and even being a pivot scarfer in a few situations. However, it's older offensive sets, with moves like Hydro, Gunk Shot, and Ice Beam, aren't exactly as useful in this current meta. Also, it's been seen that Ash Greninja has even run Spikes over Ice Beam, which isn't a bad option as well, further proving that Protean Ninja's main set isn't exactly 100% required. However, Greninja does have access to moves that help against other leads and defoggers, like Taunt. Taunt is the move that's really keeping Greninja in A+, but I don't feel it's enough, since it's other 3 sets are A-deserving sets.

While Taunt is a really good hazard setting set, I feel that because it gets up hazards on almost everything in the tier, it shouldn't really be the only thing keeping it A+. Other hazard setters in the tier perform other roles other than setting hazards, such as Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. Like I mentioned before, the other 3 sets that it has are definitely A sets, like 3 attack Spikes and Scarf.

Speaking of the Scarf set, the main issue I have with it is all it does is simply pivot out, as well as revenge kill Volcarona. Other OU scarfers such as Latios has a decent damage out put, but Scarf Greninja doesn't seem to have this. It appears redundant outside of it's small niche of checking Volc, which hasn't been as common recently has before. Also, the 3 attacks Spikes set has a hard time dealing with Pokemon like Toxapex and Ferro, which check Spikes Greninja if it doesn't have Taunt.

So, all in all, Greninja isn't quite fit for the meta like it was before. It's Life Orb sets don't really work, and the two remaining sets it does have aren't exactly fit for A+. Taunt Spikes is a very effective set, but the problem is is that it's other sets keep it from staying A+. So, for that, Greninja should be A.

This is probably going to be a very controversial topic from what I've seen, so I'd love to hear your feedback. If there's anything I may have missed, please let me know.
I'm don't really have an opinion on this nomination, but saying it only has one set that's it's rank doesn't mean it should drop. Celesteela only has one a+ rank set, and nobody is saying that it should be a because it only has one a+ set.
So, once again, I'm not opposed to a greninja drop. I just feel that the sets argument is rather faulty. All your other arguments are valid however.
Edit: I nominate Keldeo to A rank from a- rank.
Keldeo has been benefitting quite a bit from metagame trends. Heatran and tyranitar are huge threats ATM, and Keldeo is one of the few mons who can switch into both, and obviously, ko them both back. Keldeo is in my opinion, one of the best scarfers in the tier, as it can revenge kill just about every relevant set up sweeper that are huge threats to offensive teams, which the meta is shifting towards to. Scarf Keldeo also handles rain and ash greninja very well, to their big threats to offensive teams.
Keldeos calm mind set has been rising in popularity as well, with it seeing sucess in tournaments with its ability to dismantle bulkier teams, and it can easily set up on many pokemon that are supposed to check Keldeo, the most comment being toxapex.
In conclusion, this is why I feel Keldeo should rise to A.
 
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As I said in Discord, Thundurus-Therian should go down. It's this weird middleman between Koko and Zapdos. Koko alone literally outdoes it in just about everything, making its only niche dual dance. Realistically, though, it's not getting 2 boosts - 1 at best. If you go the nasty plot way, Koko is still better. If you go the Agility way, I'd much rather use Agility Zapdos, which is a better late-game cleaner overall with better coverage and bulk to boot. It's also worth noting that unless you go Fightinium Z - which leaves you walled by Landorus-Therian - Kyurem-Black just comes in for free. Thundurus-Therian really doesn't have much of a unique niche in this meta and it should just drop.
I disagree with Thundurus Therian Formation dropping to C-. I believe Thundurus-Ts main niche atm to be 3 Attacks FightiumZ nasty plot used as a dedicated breaker to prey on balance builds and have had reasonable success on ladder in the past, as it can beat many defensive pokemon that Tapu Koko cant touch or run awkward coverage with its Specs set. +2 FigthinumZ lets it break past after a little chip: Chansey, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Tapu Bulu but not Av Magearna [ things busted ;'( ] (which you might realise most share in checking Ash-Gren. Specs Koko does posses greater immediate power, and Zmoves for a nice one time nukes in Zwild Charge or others, but I believe Koko to be more of a pivot and Thundy-T to be the better long game breaker against balance builds, comparable to 3 attacks SD Garchomp perhaps with its similar speed tier. But like 3 attacks SD Chomp, I dont believe ThundyT to be very good (not for the same reasons as chomp obv) due to its poor speed and fragility + its weakness to Stealth Rock w/o reliable recovery, unlike its same types sister, Zapdos, and as mentioned earlier: "break past after a little chip", Thunudurus often needs more than 1 SR switch in to break past a few of its checks. This is why I think its right where it needs to be in C rank, not on Mega Gyarados's, Nihilegos or Infernapes level, but definatly above Araquadis, Empoleon and Talonflames though.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 568-670 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 317-373 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 366-431 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 333-392 (82.4 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 342-404 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 328-386 (103.7 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 296-350 (105.3 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sorry with some of the replays being kinda low ladder, it was quite a while ago, and I'd argue that Iv gotten better since then.. maybe D':
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624303871
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624289888
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624279278
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624274848

Also, for literally all of the reasons I've been posting almost every week, UR BRELOOM. This nomination seems to be quite popular in the discord server because it's honestly just shit and IDK - no one knows, really - why it's still ranked at all.
I'll write more later, tired rn T_T.
As much as I like the green Mushroom I agree with Unrank Breloom. Its two main niches in Mach Punch and Spore are completely invalidated by Tapus alone, with Psychic Terrain blocking Mach Punch and both Misty and Electric Terrain blocking spore on most mons with Lele, Koko usage being extremely high combined but with Fini low usage seemingly on the rise recently (still very low), but also Bulu getting opportunity to freely come and Znuke it to Ohko due to its frail defences. Though with SD allowing to help break past the newly S ranked Pex and RockiumZ Stone Edge helping vs defesive Zapdos, Tangrowth and Celesteela, its low speed will often let it down vs faster walls like Fini and Zapdos and its fragility will let it down Vs fatter ones such as Tangrowth and M.Venu. Due to this reason it seems to very outclassed by Bulu, who has not only more power immediately and after set up, but is faster, offers defensive utility to the team in checking Ash Greninja better, has amazing Team support in removing opposing Terrain and supporting the Team with Grassy and has legevity with Horn Leech + Terrain Breloom simply doesnt have (unless you run Poison Heal :P ).

+2 252+ Atk Breloom Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 334-393 (92 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Toxapex: 264-315 (86.8 - 103.6%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Breloom Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 336-396 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Breloom Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 346-408 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 294-348 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 206-244 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 126-147 (48.2 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (149 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 184-217 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Because I didnt save any replays as I did not think I'd be writing this, I'll just paste the team I've been using https://pastebin.com/mur4ssSR
 
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I disagree with Thundurus Therian Formation dropping to C-. I believe Thundurus-Ts main niche atm to be 3 Attacks FightiumZ nasty plot used as a dedicated breaker to prey on balance builds and have had reasonable success on ladder in the past, as it can beat many defensive pokemon that Tapu Koko cant touch or run awkward coverage with its Specs set. +2 FigthinumZ lets it break past after a little chip: Chansey, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Tapu Bulu but not Av Magearna [ things busted ;'( ] (which you might realise most share in checking Ash-Gren. Specs Koko does posses greater immediate power, and Zmoves for a nice one time nukes in Zwild Charge or others, but I believe Koko to be more of a pivot and Thundy-T to be the better long game breaker against balance builds, comparable to 3 attacks SD Garchomp perhaps with its similar speed tier. But like 3 attacks SD Chomp, I dont believe ThundyT to be very good (not for the same reasons as chomp obv) due to its poor speed and fragility + its weakness to Stealth Rock w/o reliable recovery, unlike its same types sister, Zapdos, and as mentioned earlier: "break past after a little chip", Thunudurus often needs more than 1 SR switch in to break past a few of its checks. This is why I think its right where it needs to be in C rank, not on Mega Gyarados's, Nihilegos or Infernapes level, but definatly above Araquadis, Empoleon and Talonflames though.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 568-670 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 317-373 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 366-431 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 333-392 (82.4 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 342-404 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 328-386 (103.7 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 296-350 (105.3 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sorry with some of the replays being kinda low ladder, it was quite a while ago, and I'd argue that Iv gotten better since then.. maybe D':
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624303871
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624289888
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624279278
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624274848



As much as I like the green Mushroom I agree with Unrank Breloom. Its two main niches in Mach Punch and Spore are completely invalidated by Tapus alone, with Psychic Terrain blocking Mach Punch and both Misty and Electric Terrain blocking spore on most mons with Lele, Koko usage being extremely high combined but with Fini low usage seemingly on the rise recently (still very low), but also Bulu getting opportunity to freely come and Znuke it to Ohko due to its frail defences. Though with SD allowing to help break past the newly S ranked Pex and RockiumZ Stone Edge helping vs defesive Zapdos, Tangrowth and Celesteela, its low speed will often let it down vs faster walls like Fini and Zapdos and its fragility will let it down Vs fatter ones such as Tangrowth and M.Venu. Due to this reason it seems to very outclassed by Bulu, who has not only more power immediately and after set up, but is faster, offers defensive utility to the team in checking Ash Greninja better, has amazing Team support in removing opposing Terrain and supporting the Team with Grassy and has legevity with Horn Leech + Terrain Breloom simply doesnt have (unless you run Poison Heal :P ).

Because I didnt save any replays as I did not think I'd be writing this, I'll just paste the team I've been using https://pastebin.com/mur4ssSR
In the first replay, there were so many things your opponent did wrong. A good player would not leave in a tyranitar against an electric type with fighting coverage without scouting first. Your opponent also left in a ferrothorn against thundurus, after he knew it had focus blast. His tapu lele used moonblast when you had a magearna. TWICE. A good player would double to their magearna check. They also brought a dugtrio. Now that dugtrio is irrelevant, the meta has changed quite a bit, so please post relevant replays current to the meta.
The second one was no better. I stopped watching when your opponent switched a heatran to thundy when it was so obvious you had focus blast. When he had a latias in the back. Disappointing.
The third replay was ok, both you and your opponent played fine, but your opponent had no good magearna checks, something every team should have.
Your opponent in the fourth replays team was this.
Heatran alakazam celebi chansey skarmory and dugtrio. And no, that is not a quality replay.
If you are going to use replays to back up your arguments, we readers want good replays.
 
In the first replay, there were so many things your opponent did wrong. A good player would not leave in a tyranitar against an electric type with fighting coverage without scouting first. Your opponent also left in a ferrothorn against thundurus, after he knew it had focus blast. His tapu lele used moonblast when you had a magearna. TWICE. A good player would double to their magearna check. They also brought a dugtrio. Now that dugtrio is irrelevant, the meta has changed quite a bit, so please post relevant replays current to the meta.
The second one was no better. I stopped watching when your opponent switched a heatran to thundy when it was so obvious you had focus blast. When he had a latias in the back. Disappointing.
The third replay was ok, both you and your opponent played fine, but your opponent had no good magearna checks, something every team should have.
Your opponent in the fourth replays team was this.
Heatran alakazam celebi chansey skarmory and dugtrio. And no, that is not a quality replay.
If you are going to use replays to back up your arguments, we readers want good replays.
Only gonna defend myself once as to not derail the thread. First off I said these replays are reasonably low ladder, between 1500-1600 and quite old.

First Replay, I selected this one as I believed although it has a Dugtrio, the team is kinda similar against current balance builds with both a Ferrothorn and a Mantine, and at the time I'm pretty sure the analysis for ThundyT only said dual dance w/ no Focus Blast mentioned though yes he should have scouted. He kept Moonblasting as I have a band Tyranitar in the back, and with my first time going hard into it on the lele, it was unsafe of him to switch up from Moonblast in subsequent turns. Although I dont get the first Ferrothorn play of Gyro balling, the second I do get, as I was tempted to Tbolt there as if i caught his lele, I literally won from there, as duggy at the time couldnt touch me.

Second Replay: This one I selected again due to being similar to current teams kind of, with ferro, tran and clef. Having Latias in the back when I have a Band TTar in the back ready to trap him. Heatran was obviously a sac. His Zygarde play was truely awful next I will agree, but the point is showing ThundyT being effective against these slow balance builds.

Third Replay: Idk, this just seemed a good replay as I saw Sand offence quite a lot at the beginning of last week. But no Magearna checks has nothing to do with showing ThunudrusTs rank on the viability rankings.

The fourth Replay: Yes my opponent was using a Celebi, but the sole reason of this replay was showing ThundurusT beating the Chansey at the end. I will admit that this is the least quality replay of them all and I probably shouldnt have included it.

I do posses replays of the team vs better teams at a higher elo and I will admit overall these arent the best replays but I think they get the point across well enough about ThundurusTs viability unlike the other teams which barley show this. I and my opponent didnt play optimally yes, but it still doesn't detract from the MU, which can be seen similarly in present teams atm. I didnt want to make the same mistake other uses do where they show replays at a high elo although the mon in question does nothing, just to show off.

If I come off sounding overly harsh or aggressive I apologise as its hard to understand feelings over text D: Im not angry or upset at all C:
 
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Only gonna defend myself once as to not derail the thread. First off I said these replays are reasonably low ladder, between 1500-1600 and quite old.

First Replay, I selected this one as I believed although it has a Dugtrio, the team is kinda similar against current balance builds with both a Ferrothorn and a Mantine, and at the time I'm pretty sure the analysis for ThundyT only said dual dance w/ no Focus Blast mentioned though yes he should have scouted. He kept Moonblasting as I have a band Tyranitar in the back, and with my first time going hard into it on the lele, it was unsafe of him to switch up from Moonblast in subsequent turns. Although I dont get the first Ferrothorn play of Gyro balling, the second I do get, as I was tempted to Tbolt there as if i caught his lele, I literally won from there, as duggy at the time couldnt touch me.

Second Replay: This one I selected again due to being similar to current teams kind of, with ferro, tran and clef. Having Latias in the back when I have a Band TTar in the back ready to trap him. Heatran was obviously a sac. His Zygarde play was truely awful next I will agree, but the point is showing ThundyT being effective against these slow balance builds.

Third Replay: Idk, this just seemed a good replay as I saw Sand offence quite a lot at the beginning of last week. But no Magearna checks has nothing to do with showing ThunudrusTs rank on the viability rankings.

The fourth Replay: Yes my opponent was using a Celebi, but the sole reason of this replay was showing ThundurusT beating the Chansey at the end. I will admit that this is the least quality replay of them all and I probably shouldnt have included it.

I will admit overall these arent the best replays but I think they get the point across well enough about ThundurusTs viability. I and my opponent didnt play optimally yes, but it still doesn't detract from the MU, which can be seen similarly in present teams atm. If I come off sounding overly harsh or aggressive I apologise as its hard to understand feelings over text D:
No offense taken. If anything, I was the one being rude or aggressive. I didn't see your tyranitar, my mistake.
The reason why using moonblast was bad is because a competent player would see using tapu leles stabs would kill momentum, so they would double switch to their magearna check.
And yes, we know that fightinium z thundy can break chansey. We don't need a replay for that.
And while magearna has nothing to do with thundys viability, the point is that no good team would be so unprepared for the second best pokemon in the tier.
Im not offended by you at all, I'm just saying that next time, it would be best to make sure all your replays are good with no awful plays on either side.
Edit: fixed auto correct.
 
To add to the point about Greninja's sets without judging them myself, the fact that a Pokemon has a handful of good sets other than its most viable one is more a point FOR the Pokemon's viability and not against it, due to the unpredictability the versitility may lead to. Not saying versitility is necessarily a strong argument in a Pokemon's favor, but being versatile is never an argument against a Pokemon no matter how big the gap in usefulness between the sets are. A Pokemon's viability is judged by its best, not by some average score of all its viable sets, that makes no sense. I recommend checking the Sets Viability Rankings thread too.
 
To add to the point about Greninja's sets without judging them myself, the fact that a Pokemon has a handful of good sets other than its most viable one is more a point FOR the Pokemon's viability and not against it, due to the unpredictability the versitility may lead to. Not saying versitility is necessarily a strong argument in a Pokemon's favor, but being versatile is never an argument against a Pokemon no matter how big the gap in usefulness between the sets are. A Pokemon's viability is judged by its best, not by some average score of all its viable sets, that makes no sense. I recommend checking the Sets Viability Rankings thread too.
That wasn't the entire focus of my argument though. Also, an averaging of sets is not at all a bad idea in my honest opinion, and I understand a lot of people will disagree with that. This game is about statistics, and it will be no matter what way you look at it. If Greninja averages out to an A, then I believe it should be an A. It's kind of like getting grades at school; it's not always what you want it to be, but the results are going to make it what it should be. But anyway, like I said, that wasn't the whole argument. I did touch upon why those sets were not A+ material, and I believe for those reasons Greninja should drop to A.
 
That wasn't the entire focus of my argument though. Also, an averaging of sets is not at all a bad idea in my honest opinion, and I understand a lot of people will disagree with that. This game is about statistics, and it will be no matter what way you look at it. If Greninja averages out to an A, then I believe it should be an A. It's kind of like getting grades at school; it's not always what you want it to be, but the results are going to make it what it should be. But anyway, like I said, that wasn't the whole argument. I did touch upon why those sets were not A+ material, and I believe for those reasons Greninja should drop to A.
So I guess Landorus-T should drop to A+ as well, considering only two out of its 5 sets are S rank.

Statistics has nothing to do with it. You're punishing a mon for having more options as opposed to less.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
That wasn't the entire focus of my argument though. Also, an averaging of sets is not at all a bad idea in my honest opinion, and I understand a lot of people will disagree with that. This game is about statistics, and it will be no matter what way you look at it. If Greninja averages out to an A, then I believe it should be an A. It's kind of like getting grades at school; it's not always what you want it to be, but the results are going to make it what it should be. But anyway, like I said, that wasn't the whole argument. I did touch upon why those sets were not A+ material, and I believe for those reasons Greninja should drop to A.
Set averaging would never work in practice. For example, Toxapex only runs one set, which is the reason why it's S rank. So because it only has one set, it averages out to S. Landorus-T and Magearna on the other hand have multiple sets, all of which only about two of them are S rank worthy, while the others are A+ and A (subjective obviously). So in theory, both of these Pokemon would average out to A+ because they just so happen to have more viable sets, albeit less viable than each other. But because Toxapex only has one set, it would stay S over the other two, because as long as its one set is S rank, it will always stay S rank, because it's an extremely small sample size compared to Lando-T or Magearna. Therefore versatility in S rank Pokemon are heavily undermined, and work against them, while more linear S rank Pokemon, would always maintain S rank for as long as their one set is S rank.

You see how that wouldn't work well at all? If a Pokemon is S rank because of one set, and has 100 viable sets all of which hover nowhere near S rank, it would still be an S rank Pokemon. That's just how it works. So despite Greninja's other sets falling out of favor, its Dual Hazard set is extremely successful atm, and keeps solidifies its place in A+. The waning viability of its other sets shouldn't drop it down to A as long as it's one set is still extremely successful.
 
Set averaging would never work in practice. For example, Toxapex only runs one set, which is the reason why it's S rank. So because it only has one set, it averages out to S. Landorus-T and Magearna on the other hand have multiple sets, all of which only about two of them are S rank worthy, while the others are A+ and A (subjective obviously). So in theory, both of these Pokemon would average out to A+ because they just so happen to have more viable sets, albeit less viable than each other. But because Toxapex only has one set, it would stay S over the other two, because as long as its one set is S rank, it will always stay S rank, because it's an extremely small sample size compared to Lando-T or Magearna. Therefore versatility in S rank Pokemon are heavily undermined, and work against them, while more linear S rank Pokemon, would always maintain S rank for as long as their one set is S rank.

You see how that wouldn't work well at all? If a Pokemon is S rank because of one set, and has 100 viable sets all of which hover nowhere near S rank, it would still be an S rank Pokemon. That's just how it works. So despite Greninja's other sets falling out of favor, its Dual Hazard set is extremely successful atm, and keeps solidifies its place in A+. The waning viability of its other sets shouldn't drop it down to A as long as it's one set is still extremely successful.
Hello, I'm very glad that you took the time to respond to my post, as I'm very new to dealing with Smogon policy. Originally, I believed that averaging sets would be a good idea, since Greninja has quite a few that it uses. However, as I look at other Pokemon in the tier, I realize that there are some Pokemon that are only in ranks due to very successful sets, like Celesteela.

Now, I do understand that grading sets is relatively soon, so I'm glad to have a better grip on it now. In the future, I will try to learn the tiering policies better to increase the quality of my posts. Thanks for responding!
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Set averaging punishes versatility, which is silly.

It also introduces Smogon itself as a ranking factor, because we decide (subjectively) which sets should be documented. Someone decides life orb 4-attack Topapex has a D-rank niche and adds the set to the analysis. Suddenly, Topapex drops 2 ranks overall, which is extra silly.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Hello, I'm very glad that you took the time to respond to my post, as I'm very new to dealing with Smogon policy. Originally, I believed that averaging sets would be a good idea, since Greninja has quite a few that it uses. However, as I look at other Pokemon in the tier, I realize that there are some Pokemon that are only in ranks due to very successful sets, like Celesteela.

Now, I do understand that grading sets is relatively soon, so I'm glad to have a better grip on it now. In the future, I will try to learn the tiering policies better to increase the quality of my posts. Thanks for responding!
For what it's worth, there is actually a thread that does grade sets, which can be found here.
 
What about Swords Dance lifeorb Giscor? It may have less attack than Lando-t, but it also isn't stymied by intimidate at all thanks to hypercutter, and initially has the benefit of defying the opponent's possible expectations for a toxistaller. Even without having intimidate himself, his fantastic typing still forces a lot of switches.

Gliscor:
Item: Life Orb
Nature: Jolly
252 Atk, 252+speed, 4 hp
Moves:
Swords Dance
Earthqake
Stone Edge/Fire Fang (fire fang for those pesky Ferrothorns and Scizors)
U-turn/Roost

For example, they expect a toxic, so they switch to Ferrothorn or Mega/regular Scizor . They are then greeted with the message "Gliscor used sword's dance". Those that keep the Ferrothorn/scizor out knowing that he'll still survive most 2x neutral moves like earthquake thanks to Superior physical bulk are then forced to read "Gliscor used Fire fang! It's super effective! Ferrothron/Scizor fainted!"
 
What about Swords Dance lifeorb Giscor? It may have less attack than Lando-t, but it also isn't stymied by intimidate at all thanks to hypercutter, and initially has the benefit of defying the opponent's possible expectations for a toxistaller. Even without having intimidate himself, his fantastic typing still forces a lot of switches.

Gliscor:
Item: Life Orb
Nature: Jolly
252 Atk, 252+speed, 4 hp
Moves:
Swords Dance
Earthqake
Stone Edge/Fire Fang (fire fang for those pesky Ferrothorns and Scizors)
U-turn/Roost

For example, they expect a toxic, so they switch to Ferrothorn or Mega/regular Scizor . They are then greeted with the message "Gliscor used sword's dance". Those that keep the Ferrothorn/scizor out knowing that he'll still survive most 2x neutral moves like earthquake thanks to Superior physical bulk are then forced to read "Gliscor used Fire fang! It's super effective! Ferrothron/Scizor fainted!"
Gliscor as a whole is extremely bad in the metagame at the moment, as it loses to and is bait for a huge number of common offensive threats like Ash-Greninja, Kyuem-B, and stuff like Specs Lele and is generally deadweight versus offense because its too slow to really make a dent at all. Swords Dance sets may sound appealing for their ability to pressure bulkier archetypes, but they're almost entirely outclassed by Landorus-T, which is far more reliable at breaking bulky teams and stall with its offensive sets. Furthermore, the way you worded your post makes it seem like you've never even tried this set, so I question why you posted it here at all? Maybe check out this thread if you want to ask about the viability of a particular pokemon/set in the future.
 
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