Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Mr.Goxel]

Greninja drop?


I thought having insane coverage high af damage and being the only offensive spike setter in the tier warranted S. Anyway if Greninja dropped it would be ridiculous. It on the level of something like MegaGross in coverage and offensive presence and is so versatile in what it can run it's fantastic. Comparing to the other mons in A+ is not even fair to all those mons. Ash greninja lacks the immediate power and coverage as an offensive Monica greninja. celesteela is not nearly as versatile in its offensive options Garchomp is easily killed by ice type attacks and lacks the same offensive presence. On really Tapu Lele is anywhere near as good as Greninja out of those Pokemon offering offence and supportive roles in one set. IMO Greninja is a solid S tier Pokemon

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

101+ Scarfers are a highly dominant force in the metagame, and Garchomp is the king/queen of them. With a Scarf it outspeeds and kills Tapu Koko, Greninja, Greninja-Ash, Pheromosa, Metagross-Mega, and almost every Pokemon that doesn't have priority and or is also a Scarfer. Tapu Bulu and Tapu Fini are decreasing in viability as well. Nothing super negative is happening to Scarfchomp right now except for maybe Tangrowth and Scarf Gengar, but those are only two things. I don't want to hear Celesteela or Ferrothorn since Garchomp has Fire Blast. Garchomp's dominance causes it to deserve A+ and if this keeps up then A+ is going to have no Pokemon anyway.

 

[bludz]

Yeah, Garchomp may be the most common Scarfer but it is no longer the best, imo. I believe that honor belongs to Keldeo which has a higher speed tier and better STAB options (not in terms of power, but type coverage) for revenge killing and late game cleaning. Furthermore it is not susceptible to the most powerful priority user - Ash Greninja - and can still check / revenge all the relevant setup mons (Zard, Volc, Mence), only missing out on Gyara which isn't super fast at +1. Chomp suffers from STAB locking because of common immunities to ground and dragon, whereas Keldeo doesn't really have this problem to nearly the same extent.

Chomp is still a great mon, but what it lacks is a truly dominant set (given that Scarf is falling off and SD is still fairly easy to revenge) that makes it more viable than the likes of Ferrothorn, Koko, etc. I'm not totally opposed to it staying A+, but that's because I think its fully offensive SD and mixed sets can be vicious, but as a hazard setter and Scarfer it faces a fair amount of competition in this metagame.

 

[D. Ros]

Greninja: The advantages of an endless coverage is just too much to not keep him in the main spotlight. Maybe his other variant is more common and got more usage right now, but i honestly think it gives a plus to his potential thanks to its ability to surprise and screw up common Ashninja checks such as Tapu Fini with Gunk Shot and Toxapex or Venusaur with Extrasensory. It deserves to stay S to me.

Garchomp: I'm ok with the A drop. Still really good but not as powerful as Ash Greninja or versatile as Celesteela or Tapu Lele. The choice scarf set is super nice but not unique, there are so many good scarfers in the tier right now, and besides that i don't think the other sets could keep him in the tier: Rocky Helmet still acts as a niche and as a LO/z-Crystal attacker it encounters the same issues of some of the lower tiers mon such as Terrakion and Salamence. It could stay A+ if just the alternative sets were as noticeable as the Choice Scarf one, but i don't think this is the case at the moment.

Mega Scizor: It's fine in A-. Scizor it's still Scizor, the main reason why almost nobody runs without a fire move on their coverage, but i think the metagame it's not turning on its favor. Yeah, it's one of the few hard checks to Mega Metagross and there are more frail, late-game cleaners that it's able to stop like Pheromosa and Nihilego, but other than that there is Lele making useless its main attack, Volcarona and Magnezone rising, Landorus-T with Z-crystals that prevents himself to turn into setup bait, and so on.

Keldeo: I have no idea, i don't remember i've ever seen one in a team since the beginning of SuMo OU.

Tapu Bulu: Keep it in A- rank. I don't consider his grass typing that bad, since the 2 STABs he can use, a 240 BP move with 100% accuracy and a 150 BP that act as a recovery tool are too useful to complain about them, and he can cover some of his checks if necessary with SD+Rockium/Fightinium-Z. However, it's not just for his offensive power that i would like to keep him A-, but also for the benefits of grassy terrain, i think it works wonders if your team is built more on the bulkier side, and the nerf of earthquake is also appreciated.

 

[420LegitShucks]

But the problem is there are fairies, and they're very common too. A lot of things soak up Outrages too, like Celesteela and Toxapex. It's not just the fairies either; You have fighting types like Pheromosa and steel types like Celesteela as well. Personally, I think Kyu-B is fine where it is. Doesn't have a huge place in the meta, but is still decent.

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 238-280 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Nice try. Toxapex ain't takin' no Outrages.

As for the Steels, the only Steels that Magnezone can't trap can't switch into Outrage:

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 187-221 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It should at least be considered to move up to A-.

 

[Gary]

What the fuck was even the purpose of that post dude. Just because Banded Kyurem hits hard as fuck doesn't change the fact that it has a ton of flaws that leave it overshadowed by a ton of better breakers in the tier. Kyurem-B is not moving up to A- or back to B+, especially with that logic. Quit posting these uninformed vague posts or else no one is going to bother listening.

 

[Tentacruelladeville]

Hey am new here so sorry if this is retarded.

But I'm thinking that Slowbro is really solid and merits a rise to B+ (maybe higher?)

It has the stats, typing, ability and movepool to just be a decent sponge. On a basic level it has instant recover + regenerator + solid defensive typing + bulk that's similar to Toxapex's.

It fairs well against a lot of top threats: Landorus-T hits it hard but hates Scald's burn rate. Standard Greninja (protean) sets hits a brick wall against it. Mega Metagross hits it hard with Thunderpunch but struggles to OHKO it & hates burn. Automize Celesteela doesn't really do much either.

Slowbro also benefits from Psychic terrain, hitting like a brick sh*thouse with Psyshock while being able to survive psychic attacks from Tapu Lele and otherwise outplay it and annoy switchins, or switch out and recover health only to come in and troll later on.

It is also a great counter to Keldeo, which was one of the top threats in ORAS and seems to be coming back in (almost but not quite) full force. Wasn't Keldeo's prominence a big reason for Slowbro's popularity last generation?

Other top-tier threats it fairs well against include: Zygarde, Charizard-X, Heatran, Nihilego, Salamence, & Excadrill

It's screwed by Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu (which are both losing popularity a bit), Ash Greninja (which TBF is just awesome and screws quite a lot of mons anyway) and Quiver Dance Pheramosa (ditto?) but I think Slowbro is really solid and on paper and seems kind of underrated, and it seems like it could at least be level with mons like Weavile, Bisharp, Marowak-A and Tyranitar.

 

[Porii Sames]

with CB Zygarde 50% getting big usage on SPL teams, have we considered dropping Zygarde Dog since it seems to be getting overshadowed at its main niche (spamming CB Thousand Arrows)? i'm not very experienced in the metagame, but perhaps this is something to point out based on the replays i've seen.

 

[Srn]

View attachment 78797
Mega Slowbro: B- ------> B rank

Mega Slowbro's insane physical bulk allows it to set up on some of the best pokemon in the tier, including Mega Metagross, Protean Greninja (lacking dark pulse, and dark pulse greninja is bad) Landours Therian, non-bloom doom heatran, scarf chomp, keldeo and tapu lele. And once it starts boosting its bulk, it becomes freaking unkillable. The only pokemon it actually fears in Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, and Hoopa Unbound/Mega gyra, all of which are losing popularity and viability. People claim that that Mega scizor is the only counter for mega metagross, but that is far from the truth.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. +2 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 56-68 (14.2 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 128-151 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. +1 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 86-102 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- 2.6% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 93-109 (23.6 - 27.7%) -- 80% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 78-93 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. +1 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO
Its the best hard check to nearly all of the choice scarf users in the game, as well as a reliable wincon given how bulky it is after an iron defense/calm mind. It really should be higher then B- imo as all of its checks and counters are losing their grip on the metagame and the pokemon that it checks are getting better, and the viability rankings should express that.

I totally disagree. Pokemon Like Ash greninja and special pheromosa are rising in popularity, which can pressure with specs Dark pulse / bug Buzz respectively, and most importantly of all, tapu fini can just taunt+natures madness and 1v1 you if you're not at +3 or more pmuch. Mega Slowbro may be a very solid check to physical threats like mgross, but its current viability reflects just that.

It's definitely not a reliable wincon given how many pokemon threaten it if it tries to set up. You claim that koko, bulu, hoopa are all that stops it, but that's far from the case. sets like Specs pheromosa and specs ash greninja are still going strong and both overpower mega slowbro easily, Gengar is picking up in popularity and will heavily dent you as well, toxapex can haze/toxic you and tapu fini can taunt+nm you to 1v1 mega slowbro, unaware clefable on stall still manhandles you, I can think of many more uncommon stops as well. Not many of these are directly switching in, yes, but are nonetheless major, common roadblocks to a mslowbro sweep.

That list might seem small, but remember that a lot of these pokemon have very high or rising usage, especially tapu fini which is still sitting at #2 on usage on ladder (last time i checked), and tapu fini/greninja/pheromosa are number 3,4,and 5 in usage in SPL, respectively. Of course, not all pheromosa are special, and certainly not all are specs, but it still poses a significant hurdle to overcome to sweep with mega slowbro.

Right now, If i'm looking for a bulky wincon that counters mega metagross, i would still go to Mega scizor, as tapu fini doesn't take repeated +2 bullet punches well, pheromosa is dying, gengar is dying, greninja can be pushed through if weakened, it just has a way better matchup against common stuff, especially since lele has drastically decreased in usage (still gud tho) Not saying that mega scizor isn't stopped by common, good mons either, like celesteela or toxapex, but overall its a far more solid wincon.

love the artwork btw

 

[Kutscher]

i disagree with keldeo moving up, i don't think it should be much higher than nihilego(actually i think they should be in the same rank), i know scald/secret sword are more spammable in this meta with metagross being everywhere, but nihilego can revange kill the things scarf keldeo is supposed to do, way easier(=keldeo can't OKO +1 volc ,zard-x and scolipede, and have to choose between salamance/zygarde and gyara), nihilego OKO all the set-up sweepers bar manaphy(keldeo can't too), i know metagross, ferrothorn, magearna,jirachi and excadrill hurts nihilego viability a lot, but keldeo have a ton of answers like all the bulky grasses(bar ferro), toxapex, fini, bulu, pinsir and zapdos, nihilego can beat most of them, so i woud say to keep keldeo A-.

also i would like to nominate pyukumunku to C+, i think it should be in the same rank as quagsire and shedinja, his niche in stall is pretty solid, and while he can't checks non grass knot eletrics like quagsire, he is one of the best answeres to huge threats like z-move lando-t/salamance/gyarados/garchomp/kyube/volcarona, pinsir, cb hoopa-u, outrage char-x, metagross and z-rain dance manaphy, mons that with some support could give stall a lot of headaches, it's niche is surprisenly effective, you can stall thinks to death while giving sableye/skarmory a wincon(this is really good against opposite stall, since you can toxic quagsire/clefable), i know that he is a big taunt bait, but in stall you have mega sableye to cover this, and i do think his niche is as good as quagsire's.

i don't think clefable and amoongus(only checks nihliego, non special based pheromosa and gengar better than tangrowth) deserve their ranks, but i don't have much to say about it. sry for bad english, and i hope i had contributed somehow.

edit: i forgot to mention beast boost.

 

[Shurtugal]

View attachment 78797
Mega Slowbro: B- ------> B rank

Mega Slowbro's insane physical bulk allows it to set up on some of the best pokemon in the tier, including Mega Metagross, Protean Greninja (lacking dark pulse, and dark pulse greninja is bad) Landours Therian, non-bloom doom heatran, scarf chomp, keldeo and tapu lele. And once it starts boosting its bulk, it becomes freaking unkillable. The only pokemon it actually fears in Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, and Hoopa Unbound/Mega gyra, all of which are losing popularity and viability. People claim that that Mega scizor is the only counter for mega metagross, but that is far from the truth.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. +2 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 56-68 (14.2 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 128-151 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. +1 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 86-102 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- 2.6% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 93-109 (23.6 - 27.7%) -- 80% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 78-93 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. +1 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO
Its the best hard check to nearly all of the choice scarf users in the game, as well as a reliable wincon given how bulky it is after an iron defense/calm mind. It really should be higher then B- imo as all of its checks and counters are losing their grip on the metagame and the pokemon that it checks are getting better, and the viability rankings should express that.

Who the hell brings Slowbro into a Greninja to set up? That's like asking for ash greninja to click dark pulse - also protean dark pulse isn't bad if only because fuck mega metagross. Non-Bloom Doom Heatran usually carry Toxic or Taunt so you're not setting up on that, also tapu lele can't be set up on until you know the set as specs/life orb/z-move/taunt/cm can all be respectively annoying for slowbro to take on.

Gengar is rising in usage, Mega Scizor & Pheromosa & Ash Greninja & Tapu Koko & Tapu Fini make its life dificult. And sadly mega slowbro just not very good against stall, which is supposed to be its selling point, unless you're using the rest talk set but then you just don't do as well vs everything else.

Another question I often ask myself is: why mega slowbro over regular slowbro + another mega as regular slowbro can do pretty much the same thing, but with regenerator and an item slot (granted meha slowbro uses regen too until it mega evolves but regular slowbro can function alongside another mega teammate)

 

[Gary]

Protean Gren still runs Dark Pulse a decent amount just because it's the only move that can OHKO Mega Metagross which is pretty important for obvious reasons. It doesn't check Tapu Lele because Specs can 2HKO with Moonblast and it often runs coverage such as Shadow Ball or Thunderbolt, and its AoA set often runs Taunt which shuts it down, or Ghostium Z. SD Scolipede runs Megahorn so idk how the fuck Mega Bro checks that unless it's Iron Defense and already has a boost.

Like, I do enjoy using Mega Bro just because it's a piece of shit to deal with late game that lots of teams can have issue breaking through if played correctly allowing it to sweep, but as many have already said, nothing has really changed in the meta to make it better. Mega Metagross has always been really good, and it was placed in B- regardless. Zard-X is declining in usage quite a bit, and there are just so many powerful breakers/offensive Pokemon that can pressure it and keep it from setting up. Letting stuff like Ash Gren in for free is really bad, and stuff like Specs Mosa and Gengar just click their STAB. If anything, Mega Bro has a harder time in the current metagame than usual.

 

[p2]

well yea it beats a ton of physical attackers but there's so much going against (mega) slowbro in the meta that it struggles to find a place in any kind of team at the moment. the meta is run by special phero sets and offensive ghosts like gar as well as offensive dark types everywhere too. slowbro really struggles to fit in the current meta and you've just listed the positives while completely disregarding the negatives which make it extremely difficult to use in the meta, not to mention it faces incredible competition from toxapex right now which is just better in terms of bulky waters. megabro itself just isn't too effective either considering spikes are fantastic right now which means its gonna wear itself down extremely quickly. and another point you seem to be missing out is the huge opportunity cost of using megabro, if you're using megabro, you're not using metagross or scizor lol..

 

[Vert]

lost you the minute you mentioned iron defense slowbro. the set is ass and the opponent just switches out the minute you reveal iron defense. use psyshock since you can actually beat pokemon such as amoonguss 1v1. it's pretty clear you are making up scenarios to try prove you are right at this point even though you yourself know you are wrong. spikes, status, leech seed, taunt, and the influx of pokemon such as greninja, gengar, and tapu koko also prevent mega slowbro from really doing anything outside of being passive and spamming scald in which i would use toxapex at that point. if anything, it's not anti-meta because all the pokemon it checks well such as charizard x and excadrill are dying usage. mega metagross is the only thing that is saving this 'mon from dropping to c+.

while i am at it, going to comment on some discussion points with a few nominations myself:

rises:
scizor → a

defog sets are very good and one of the most solid options for hazard control in the tier. it checks the omnipresent metagross and also just autowins certain matchups due to poor teambuilding at the moment. pursuit is also a great way to dispose / weaken tapu lele and metagross which are detrimental to a team's game plan. free momentum and takes advantage of a ton of pokemon in the tier.

azumarill → b-

unlike mega slowbro, this pokemon is anti-meta. it's typing is still very solid as it can check ash greninja and pheromosa and aqua jet is very useful for picking off volcarona for example. after a belly drum, most teams just bend back to it. stall in particular just falls because no one uses quagsire. knock off clefable and it will lose to play rough while clefable won't be able to win with moonblast in time due to sitrus berry. sitrus berry also has applications outside of belly drum for tanking hits and then attacking. +6 aqua jet literally destroys teams without tapu lele in the late game. the normalium z presents a different dynamic to classic sitrus berry + belly drum because the belly drum is much more reliable. an interesting mechanic is z-belly drum functions as a 100% heal if you are already at +6. this means stall teams without quagsire just bend back even harder to this set. i still believe sitrus is better but normalium z is still an option because it is clutch in many scenarios. it deserves a rise.

zygarde → a+

zygarde has established itself as the most consistent set up sweepers in the tier along with magearna with its dragon dance set. dragon dance has very good bulk and can completely destroy offense due to it. groundium z and earth plate are alternate items to the classic subsitute + dragon dance set with leftovers that are very good. substitute + coil is still ridiculous and the set has even gotten better considering how tapu fini is descreasing in usage. the last slot is extremely flexible as it can run extreme speed (i prefer this) or toxic. choice band zygarde has also seen massive usage and it is very hard to switch into while it can actually tank hits unlike its 10% counterpart.

keldeo → a

yes, water fighting stabs and ridiculous speed tier with a choice scarf makes it very solid. the lack of latios and people spamming water resists with no recovery makes it just as effective as it was last generation. the choice specs and calm mind + z-move sets are just extra to show its unpredictability. only reason i could not see it rising is how dumb toxapex is but keldeo's matchup in many other games warrants a rise.

drops:
garchomp → a

choice scarf also has to lock itself into ground- and dragon-type moves and it is suspectible to water shuriken. keldeo is the best choice scarf user in the tier right now (i don't know if anyone shares this opinion with me) and has much better moves to spam, especially early game. it could stay because how brutal swords dance sets are to slower teams but the matchup versus offense is undesirable. it's a pokemon with two A rank sets and it should drop.

zygarde 10% → c+

there is less and less reason to use this every single day. the only thing saving it from not being complete trash is it can outpace the mindless monster known as mega metagross.

 

[Scribble]

Gonna piggyback on Zygarde to A+ (was planning to make this nomination myself lmao)

Zygarde is one of the most consistent Pokemon in the tier, definitely as consistent as an A+ mon, and it's just as versatile as one too. Choice Band hits hard as hell, SubCoilToxic makes Stall fall over, Dragon Dance allows it to out pace the a lot of threats with its good 95 Speed, it can run Extreme Speed for priority or Outrage for a Dragon nuke, and it can even make use of Groundium Z. On top of that, Zygarde's typing lets it serve as a reliable answer to the threat of Volcarona (bar HP Ice of course), and to Zard Y as well. Thousand Arrows is the only coverage Zygarde needs, so its other 3 move slots are essentially free, and Zygarde can be tailored to fit what your team needs. If a team is unprepared for Zygarde, it will eventually be swept by Zygarde. It is a threat that definitely needs to be taken into account when teambuilding. Definitely worth of A+.

On the flip side, also gonna piggyback on Zydog to B-/C+

I don't think Zydog is as bad or as niche as the mons in C+ like Hippowdown or Whimsicott, due to Thousand Arrows, its great speed tier, and offensive power equal to Zygarde, but it faces so much competition from Zygarde that it definitely needs to drop. Its pitiful bulk also make it susceptible to priority, and it providing minimal defensive capabilities to the team. There isn't really much else to say about Zydog other than just use Zygarde instead.


Keep Tapu Bulu A-

Tapu Bulu may not be the best Tapu, but it's by no means a B+ mon. The support it provides with Grassy Terrain is quite useful, and it also makes Majin Bulu Tapu Bulu hit like a truck. Anything not named Celesteela, Skarmory, Mega Scizor, or Mega Metagross has a difficult time switching in to this mon. Its SD Fightinium Z set is very difficult for Stall to handle too. Tapu Bulu's typing also allows it to be arguably the best Zygarde answer in the tier, and it can handle non Ice Beam variants of Ash Greninja, Keldeo, Lando-T, Dugtrio, and other mons. Dropping it to B+ would be a mistake, as pointed out earlier. Bulu isn't the strongest mon in the game, but it should never be slept on.


Drop Garchomp to A

I've never had any issues with fighting against Garchomp. When using it it hasn't really impressed me, or disappointed me. It's about what I expected. It's a really solid mon, but not as solid a the rest of A+. Its Scarf set is useful in that it outspeeds Salamence and Volcarona at +1, but its STAB attacks have two very common types immune to them making it awkward to being locked in. On top of that, its coverage moves just aren't that strong without SD due to their low base power and lack of STAB. It has a lot of issues with fighting top tier mons like Lando-T, Celesteela, and Tangrowth. I feel like it's being oversold as a mon in A+, and it looks more at home in A.

Not gonna comment on Keldeo. I haven't used it enough to give a solid opinion on it, and I've rarely faced it, though its performance in SPL is impressive.

I don't think I have anything to contribute with Greninja (Stay in S) and Mega Scizor (Rise to A), so I won't give them a paragraph.

Also would like to bring up Volcarona to A

Volcarona may be one of the scariest Pokemon to face in the tier. A team weak to Volcarona will be swept by Volcarona. Of course, Volcarona requires support as its Stealth Rock weakness is pretty bad, but its pros far out weight its cons. Fire (With Firium Z) + Grass coverage is stupidly hard to switch in to (Only like Zygarde, Garchomp, Heatran, Toxapex, Chansey and Mantine can do it), and Volcarona can run HP Ice or Ground to eliminate 2 of its 6 answers. It can even run Bug Buzz if it fears Latios for some reason. It definitely must be in mind when teambuilding, as it basically defined a good scarfer in this meta as something that can outspeed it at +1 and kill it. Volcarona also has a good match up vs Pheromosa, and it can punish U-Turners with Flame Body. Volcarona just seems better than a lot of the mons in A- to me. I don't really have Jirachi, Keldeo, or Mega Alakazam in mind when teambuilding, but I definitely have Volc in mind. It should rise to A.

 

[Leo]

I hope I'm not breaking any rule by posting this here (and apologies if I am) but I'm really curious about what the ranking team thinks about Volcarona. It's been nom'd to A like 3 or 4 times so far and there hasn't been any response as to why it isn't rising and it feels kinda awkward to nom a mon that maybe the team isn't even considering for a rise. Honestly I think Volcarona deserves a place in the A rank but I won't go on about it because everything has been said in about 3-4 posts already imo

 

[RedzoneX]

I personally believe Volcarona should remain in A-. While it is no doubt a very threatening sweeper, and one that must be prepared against on every team, most teams are very serious about how they are preparing for Volcarona. Most of the popular scarfers in the tier outspeed it at +1, and quite a few of them (Garchomp, Terrakion, Nihilego, and Keldeo to name a few) are often chosen with their capability to OHKO Volcarona with very little or no chip damage in mind. In addition, the types of offensive teams Volcarona sees play on are fairly constrained in their options to support it with hazard removal. Tapu Fini is suffering a downturn as many offensive teams find it too passive and too heavily prepared for in the current meta, which leaves Excadrill and Pheromosa as options, both of which restrict the creativity of possible builds featuring Volcarona. It's certainly a deadly sweeper if left unchecked, but very few teams are doing just that at the moment. I find it fitting that Volcarona shares the A- rank with Mega Charizard X, a Pokémon with a very similar dilemma in the current meta.

 

[Eraxxer]

My problem with Zygarde is how ridiculously weak it is. Depending on your spread, you're giving up speed, bulk or damage, but regardless:

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 220-259 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 307-363 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 258-306 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 213-252 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 240-284 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can see that it can't break Physical walls like Lando very well whatsoever, and even stupidly weak shit like Hoopa eat hits, while SE hits on Magearna don't manage to do a ton of damage. The prevalence of Lando and Fini, both of which beat Zygarde in a 1v1, Lando always without toxic and fini always full stop, hurts it a lot as well as things like Bulu, protean gren, lele, hp ice tangrowth etc. etc. being really common. It doesn't get a ton of opportunity to set up and the stuff it can set up on usually get volt turn (scizor, koko etc.) or else the team is probably bulkier, with more reliable checks. Only having lefties is a massive hindrance as well, and overall I just think A suits it much better.

 

[JTD783]

My problem with Zygarde is how ridiculously weak it is. Depending on your spread, you're giving up speed, bulk or damage, but regardless:

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 220-259 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 307-363 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 258-306 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 213-252 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 240-284 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can see that it can't break Physical walls like Lando very well whatsoever, and even stupidly weak shit like Hoopa eat hits, while SE hits on Magearna don't manage to do a ton of damage. The prevalence of Lando and Fini, both of which beat Zygarde in a 1v1, Lando always without toxic and fini always full stop, hurts it a lot as well as things like Bulu, protean gren, lele, hp ice tangrowth etc. etc. being really common. It doesn't get a ton of opportunity to set up and the stuff it can set up on usually get volt turn (scizor, koko etc.) or else the team is probably bulkier, with more reliable checks. Only having lefties is a massive hindrance as well, and overall I just think A suits it much better.

I have no strong opinion on where Zygarde should be tiered, but I disagree with your thought process and feel that I should clarify a few things before this topic gets derailed further. It's clear that SubCoil Zygarde can't wallbreak, but its job is to take advantage of slower, bulkier mons that don't break its sub, slowly boost, and wear down the opponent. Against stall teams its matchup is extremely good. It's not meant as a sweeper or wallbreaker; saying that it isn't one is stating the obvious.

Likewise, DD Zygarde is meant to sweep, not tank hits repeatedly. It can use its natural bulk, which even uninvested is good for something offensively inclined, to boost once or even twice and then spam Arrows, which has no immunities. ESpeed is basically just for Pheromosa. Also, offensive sets can and will run Earth Plate, Life Orb, and other boosting items.

Please understand that stating the role of a given pokemon (especially when stating the roles incorrectly) doesn't explain why something should rise or fall; metagame trends are what really matter.

To contribute, I do think Fini's decline is a good selling point, and Zygarde likes that stall is good right now since SubCoil craps on most stall builds. It also likes how steels are everywhere since many of them are set-up fodder for SubCoil and DD sets. I think it's stronger in the current meta than Garchomp, but both are solid A if not A+. Of course, that's already been established.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I'm on the fence on Zygarde to A+ right now. The only reason is that so many pokemon run pocket ice moves right now and that hurts Zygarde. Against offensive teams many pokemon will have icebeam/hp ice which means you will probably need to get rid of those on order for your win con (Zygarde) to win. This can cause many problems and if these threats aren't eliminated then Zygarde is most likely screwed. I understand Zygarde has both choice band and Stall breaker sets to work with but its choice band set is not as good as lele's specs imo because its not as good at breaking walls. Which means were left with stallbreaker sets and I don't think it should rise based on stall breaking because no other pokemon has. Take a look at all the S tiers. They all run ice type moves on their most common sets. Zygarde may do well against stall but against offence its not as good and therefore I don't think it should be A+. I can see people saying "Well Lando-T and Garchomp are high ranks but they're 4x weak to ice" First off. Lando is most generally run to force switches and grab momentum with u-turn/wall break with z-moves aka it does not stay in very long. Garchomp is the same. No one uses Tank chomp its trash and grossly outclassed by other defensive pivots. So that leaves Garchomp's defensive seta which will not stay in on ice types. Zygarde is a bulky sweeper and is meant to take hits but is 4x weak to a very common offensive type.


Monica Zygarde stay A

 

[Shurtugal]

I'm really not sold on Zygarde's abilities.

Most people use the Sub / Toxic / Coil set which supposedly beats stall, but Thousand Arrows only has around 16 PP and with enough Skarm Whirlwinds + Clefable Heal Bells + Dugtrio Toxic it really doesn't do this as reliably as most people would think, as a competent stall player can maneuver around it fairly easily. It often finds itself with 4MMS as it really would like Espeed / Iron Tail / Toxic in the last slot at all times, and this set requires a decent amount of support to truly hold itself. It does well vs certain matchups (mostly balanced teams) and lackluster in others (heavy offense isn't too scared of non-espeed, and stall isn't even afraid of the toxic one but it is especially not afraid of espeed variant).

Banded Zygarde's niche is that it has bulky powerful Espeed much like Banded Dragonite in other generations, but Banded Dragonite was never A or A+ rank in previous tiers, and I feel like Banded Zygarde 50% isn't much different apart from two things: no reliance on haz control to be bulky priority + thousand arrows spam, but this move is really weak even behind a Choice Band and Outrage finds lots of immunities in top tier threats like Fini, Koko, Bulu, and Magearna. Honestly people brought it in SPL probably just for the sheer surprise factor, as Banded Zygarde feels really lacking in power - TA doesn't feel that spammable when Landorus-T and Co. are fairly good at walling it, Outrage isn't spammable, and while Lele's usage is dropping Banded Espeed is only picking off threats, so the Pokémon requires a lot of support to truly pull off.

It is true that Zygarde's powerful Banded priority can be useful against the offensive-based metagame we have, and the Sub Coil set is very good against certain bulky offensive / balanced builds, but I find that the above flaws keep it out of A+ rank. Ash Greninja, Celesteela, and Tapu Lele are just at a power level that is above Zygarde in my humble opinion.

Note: my opinion comes from never having used DD Zygarde, so depending on how good this set it maybe it does deserve A+, but I haven't seen much of it personally (not that this means anything). I will make another post / comment again after I make a team and try the DD / Z Groundium sets Vertex mentioned in his reasoning for the nomination.

 

[Nuked]

Rises

A- -----> A rank

Keldeo is probably one of the best scarfers right now, as in nearly no matter what circumstance it's in it will come in and simply clean. It checks a shitton of pokemon like phermosa, nihelogo, aloan marowak, Landourus Therian and Ash Greninja. It still hits ridiculously hard even without choice specs, for instance, Tapu lele and Mega metagross are 2HKOed by hydro pump on the switch in. The only way to reliable counter it is to take a defensive approach, for example, add a Mega Venasaur or a Tapu Fini, but very few, if any, offensive pokemon have any business with keldeo.

Drops

A ------> A-

I've used gengar, and it has been really underwhelming for me. It basically invites things like Ash Greninja and Tyranitar to come in and either gain momentum by using u-turn or pursuit trap it. Unlike keldeo, gengar is checked by a ton of good offensive mons, like Scarf Lele, garchomp, Ash Greninja and tyranitar. It finds itself using destiny bond to try and revenge sweepers with it scarf set, but setup sweepers can predict that and setup even more, which forces out gengar since now destiny bond will fail like protect does (and its locked onto the move). Also, im not particular fond of the pokemon that completely invalidated my argument for a Megabro rise.

I disagree with the Gengar drop. Ash Greninja can only come in after Gengar's killed a Pokemon. Everything listed there can only come in after. Tapu Lele is not a very good Gengar "check", Tyranitar is OHKOed by Focus Blast, Garchomp takes like 65+ from Shadow Ball, etc. It's checked by some good offensive Pokemon but that's the same with every other Pokemon, and that doesn't change the fact that Ghost is probably one of the best offensive types right now and Gengar has the perfect mixture of speed, power, and unpredictability to make good use of it.

 

[Nuked]

It locks itself onto a ghost type move, then it becomes pursuit bait. Besides that, gengar is incredibly frail, even more so then ash greninja or tapu koko, which gives it problems switching in. It can only come in after you sacced a teamate or somehow double switched. It also comes with an oppurtunity cost of not being able to run Aloan Marowak on the same team, so you have to think twice before using it. While other revenge killers can Ohko what their revenge killing, Gengar relies on Destiniy bond to do that. It deserves to drop to A-.

Let's forget the fact that Pursuit is far less common this gen than last gen, and for some reason you're assuming it's scarfed when it can viably run Life Orb as well. It's not A for being a scarfer, it's A for having unwallable Ghost STAB and unpredictability.

 

[tigers jaw]

gengar pairs incredibly well with voltturn users such as koko and ash ninja (the latter especially, as it beats fini tang, or gets to fire off strong ghost move with like 0 resists in the tier). getting gengar in is not an issue. it also provides a decent check to physical pheromosa sets, which is always appreciated by offensive teams. tyranitar and pursuit in general has taken a massive dive in usage, the only relevant pursuit users being alolan-muk (only on some stall/balance) and msciz which isn't 100% carrying pursuit anyway and is running more physdef these days meaning it is by no means a switchin to gengar. scarf gengar (btw this isn't the only set, life orb 3 attacks+taunt, life orb sub split, ghostium z and specs are all rly good) isn't meant to be revenge killing volcarona and zardx, it does rkill mence with icy wind/hp ice though; it's used primarily as an anti-offence pick, with a defensive core that can handle what it can't or as a secondary scarfer, a la scarf lando or hoopa-u. idk what you're getting at or if you've even used gengar extensively at all because it seems like you're just clutching at straws.

Also, im not particular fond of the pokemon that completely invalidated my argument for a Megabro rise.

10/10 logic great argument i am completely convinced.

gar should rise, not gonna rehash the points that have been made by other users but it's pretty clear just how effective this thing is in the meta atm.

edit @ below: it is obviously fruitless to argue with someone who can simultaneously concede that pursuit is less common but "still as relevant", we call that cognitive dissonance. have fun my g i wish you the best.

edit again: didn't mean p2, a post got deleted. still, though, fuck p2

 

[p2]

how about you sit back and consider that you might be wrong here, you're just throwing these claims around despite gengar actually being better this gen because terrains, especially psychic, are huge for it

its absolutely not garbage in a meta with 0 relevant solid ghost resists, ttar and weavile are nowhere to be seen this gen, and if someone uses ttar, it's gonna be banded. alolan muk is dogshit but yea its a decent answer albeit extremely uncommon and not that splashable. mega sciz is forced to give up sd or defog to pursuit and it still struggles to switch into gar, it can definitely get a pursuit off most games, but that involves gar denting that team or burning sciz in the process. mgross is never switching into gar unless you're playing extremely offensively and even then it needs to make sure gengar isn't scarf and it still needs to risk a speed tie to pick it off.

you're being really ignorant to gengars effect in the meta and considering you're tossing off points which sound like they're entirely built off of theorymonning, you're not exactly sounding very credible here.