Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[vso]

I nominate Azumarill from C+--> B+
Azumarill has been catching a lot of traction lately, for it is very anti meta. It may seem awkward to rank it an entire rank above what it previously was, but there are numerous teams not prepared for the sweeping potential of Normalium Z Belly Drum. The most common defensive water resists are Tapu Fini and Tangrowth. Tangrowth gets outsped and OHKOed by a +6 Play Rough. Tapu Fini is not able to take out Azumarill, and ironically, Azumarill can use Z Belly Drum and switch into it and then set up a Z Belly Drum which breaks past Taunt. The most common offensive water resists are Keldeo, Greninja Ash, and Protean Greninja. However, the former two cannot do too much damage back, and Protean Greninja will be taken out with little chip. The other Water resists need to be chipped, however it is very easy to do so with something like Spikes. Tapu Lele is a check, but that is why most Azumarill teams run Pursuit.

Z Belly Drum Azumarill gets an insane number of set up oppurtunities. It can even set up on Mega Metagross. With an solid 100/80/80 bulk it is extremely hard to be OHKOed, and unless that happens, it gets up a free BD. It can be used for Switching into some offensive Pokemon like Greninja-Ash, and then picking up a Z Belly Drum. The rise of Tangrowth compliments to its usefulness. It also has variants like Choice Band which does a massive amount to many breakers, and can RK Volcarona. Z BD Azumarill has also picked up a nice clean in SPL. People have finally realized how good this is. Azumarill teams are very linear, but extremely potent with a good player behing it. It is extremely difficult to prepare for Azumarill, because how easily Spikes can chip your otherwise checks. Hyper Offenses have a super hard time beating Azumarill, because "not letting it set up" is much harder because you need an OHKO to stop it. Offenses become threatened, but among other playstyles, it has the best matchup vs Azumarill, commonly possessing Tapu Lele, and Tapu Bulu. Bulky Offenses lack a real counter to it if they are not running Tapu Lele. Balances have a massive problem, because Azumarill can easily roll through the team, having an easy time setting up, however Mega Venusaur is a solid counter. Stall also has a massive problem because if their Unaware use dies, they lose. It can set up twice. Z Double Edge chunks the user, putting it into Play Rough range.

Azumarill is at least on par with other B+ rank Pokemon like Bisharp. Keeping it on the same rank with Pokemon like Volcanion massively undervalues how good Azu is right now. It could potentially be an A- rank Pokemon, but for right now B+ seems enough to start.

 

[Seth_]

Truth must be told, Vincune's counters are more common right now, however there are more teams auto destroyed by Vincune. Let's have closer look at this mon:

It has amazing ability to beat it's counters. Don't believe?

0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 84-98 (20.7 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. +2 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 78-92 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Both most common bulky grasses have tough time beating Vincune. But you are smart guy, you know how carzy good this mon was in previous gen, so lets have look at new stuff.

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 102-120 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can actually 2HKO if you have your hazards (rock+spikes or preferably rocks+Tspikes) set up. So it is not really a counter.

+6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. +6 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 152-180 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. +6 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even matchup against Volcarona, if you have one turn advantage you can 1v1 volcarona and keep in mind that volcaronas nowadays run psychium z more often than giga drain

Tapu Bulu might be seen as counter, however you can burn it with scald and it's grassy terrain works more for you than for your enemy.

Other things that goes against Vincune:
-Taunt+Nature Madness Fini
-Haze Toxapex
-Rise of power whip ferror (althrough you can always go for miss/burn, but you shouldn't)

Things that goes for Vincune:
-Can potentialy 1v1 bigges threads in metagame, like Metagross, Ash Gren, Celesteela, Scizor
-Most ProtGren sets can't touch it
-Free set up on sp def celesteela
-Bulky water that ain't autolose to grassium z tran
-Nice matchup against sableye
-Burns turns for Trick Room, Rain, Terrain (IMO BIGGEST ONE)

I think that even if setting up with suicune migh be difficult it still has few nice properties that let it shine and it is a little slept on threat. Probably someone more talented with team building would make it use it full potential and show how good this mon is. IMO it deserves B

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I just ran through the numbers that thing is walled at +6 forever by every bulky regen user, Chansey, all unaware pokemon, and maybe something else I'm forgetting like sub seed users or whatever

But I'm completely impressed by this number right here, but it'd die if they predict when You rest and out speed You when You wake up.

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With 1 layer of hazards up and a turn to do its thing like coil Zygarde this can be a monster

 

[Subject 18]

As some of you know, Medichamite has been released recently. As standard with any new Mega Pokemon, it won't be ranked for a week. You can talk about it but please do not nominate it to be ranked just yet. Thanks and carry on_n.

 

[Tentacruelladeville]

Just wondering, why does Skarmory get no mention as a defogger? I'm new to playing and don't ladder highly at all lol and i get that Skarmory is really passive (although I did once OHKO Tapu Koko switch-in with Iron Head :D) but it's really bulky, has an awesome defensive typing and instant recovery and can arguably remove hazards more consistently than literally anything. I guess people usually just use Skarmory on stall teams as a physical wall that sets hazards, but sometimes removing hazards is more of a priority than putting them up especially with Ferrothorn everywhere So it doesn't seem true to say that defog Skarmory is 'outclassed' by a spiker Skarmory. Removing hazards is also more important than setting them if you're main wincon is say, Volcarona or Mega Pinsir. & while it's passive you can usually just whirlwind away anything that sets up on it (if you pair it with scarf Nihilego opposing Volcaronas are not really a problem at all).

This isn't a nomination and I think Skarmory's good where it is, but is there a reason its viability ignores its Defog capability?

 

[Martin]

if you want a Water type Rapid Spinner, use Tentacruel and not Starmie.

(also any other comparisons of these two in a black and white manner)

While I have no intention to argue for or against either of these nominations (well, I'm arguing against the Starmie one in a roundabout way, but that's it) I'm not quite following your logic for why Tentacruel should be higher than Starmie for a few reasons. First of all, beyond their typing and having Spin these two Pokemon aren't even remotely comparable: one is used on offense as an offensive spinner that soft checks Pokemon like Keldeo and has a grand total of 0 viable Pokemon that can spinblock it consistently (if anyone says Jellicent I will scream 'cause these are not viable*), and the other is used on balance as a defensive role compression tool. Like, people take Pokemon which share a type and one move and start comparing them all the time, but most of the time when people do this they fail to account for their actual roles/niches on teams and as such the comparisons are total garb. This is an example of this and it is why I take issue with this nomination.

*This quip wasn't directed at u Dartrix (or anyone in particular for that matter) hahaha

In a Phero metagame I'd argue that Starmie is in the right place atm when you consider its capabilities, and I'd argue that if/when Phero gets banned it is likely to be a candidate for a rise if anything (even if it's just a small one) because, with what little time I've spent using it on the suspect ladder, it has actually been pulling its weight reasonably consistently when paired with appropriate support to help with things like (Ash) Gren/Weavile/Koko/whatever else that come in as it spins/kills smth and get of strong hits on it or its teammates. It is deceptively hard to come in on due to Analytic combined with how a lot of its key defensive headaches drop to its coverage options (AV Tang drops to Ice Beam variants if caught on the switch (KOs w/ SR), Amoong/Venu/etc. drop to Psychic, Fini/Prim/Gyara/etc. drop to TBolt, Ferro drops to HP Fire etc.), and like I said before literally nothing viable spinblocks it with any kind of consistency due its speed and its STABs. It basically fills a niche on offense where there is simply no competition, because Excadrill simply isn't that easy to plug onto teams and just doesn't beat any of the hazard setters that it is spinning the hazards from, and because the other hazard control options are all Defog (not to mention that 90% of them blow anyway).

Just wondering, why does Skarmory get no mention as a defogger? I'm new to playing and don't ladder highly at all lol and i get that Skarmory is really passive (although I did once OHKO Tapu Koko switch-in with Iron Head :D) but it's really bulky, has an awesome defensive typing and instant recovery and can arguably remove hazards more consistently than literally anything. I guess people usually just use Skarmory on stall teams as a physical wall that sets hazards, but sometimes removing hazards is more of a priority than putting them up especially with Ferrothorn everywhere So it doesn't seem true to say that defog Skarmory is 'outclassed' by a spiker Skarmory. Removing hazards is also more important than setting them if you're main wincon is say, Volcarona or Mega Pinsir. & while it's passive you can usually just whirlwind away anything that sets up on it (if you pair it with scarf Nihilego opposing Volcaronas are not really a problem at all).

This isn't a nomination and I think Skarmory's good where it is, but is there a reason its viability ignores its Defog capability?

Because it's only viable on stall, whereas people are talking in the context of balance and offense here. FWIW I'd never run it without Defog on stall, and I wouldn't use it on balance in this meta.

 

[bludz]

As some of you know, Medichamite has been released recently.

fuck

 

[bludz]

It's much much faster so you can take advantage of your coverage against defensive checks better, so you dont have to predict switches as much. For example, defensive Landorus-T forces Mega Mawile out because its outsped. But Medicham can just follow up with Ice Punch. And it outspeeds mons like Tapu Lele as well. And while yes both are Huge Power breakers, Medicham's STAB HJK is also significantly more powerful than Mawile's Play Rough. Overall its gonna be harder to deal with in a lot of respects although it clearly offers very little defensively unlike Mawile

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Is Fake Out still optimal on Mega Medicham? It starts with 100 Speed now, and it has plenty of coverage options it could use in the freed moveslot. Bullet Punch also seems to be a more consistent priority move overall.

 

[Colonel M]

Is Fake Out still optimal on Mega Medicham? It starts with 100 Speed now, and it has plenty of coverage options it could use in the freed moveslot. Bullet Punch also seems to be a more consistent priority move overall.

Fake Out closes the gaps for Mega Medicham for KOing things. I would argue it to be optimal still.

Though I feel questions like these and a few others belongs in the Mega thread more than the VR...

 

[RainbowDemon]

Mega Medicham... what to say about my ORAS hero? I think this time around HJK is more powerful than ever, with the decline of two of it's biggest counters in Slowbro and Starmie. Almost nothing can switch unpunished in a HJK. The only responses to this move alone are Mega-Venusar (OHKO'd by Zen Headbutt), Toxapex (same, but also vulnerable to Thunder Punch), Protect (less popular than it was in ORAS), and Ghost types (all offensive except Sableye). Even if you have a Ghost mon in your team, the best you can do is start a mind game, since Gengar and Marowak are hit hard by coverage moves, and Mimikyu risks losing his much needed Disguise.

Some calcs to demonstrate what a beast he is:

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 309-364 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 246-291 (61 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 245-288 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 140-165 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-201 (43.1 - 51%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 146-172 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It's rather incredible that even Tapu Fucking Fini can't even switch safely on this thing. Everytime you switch Cham into something that's on his KO range, hell breaks loose.
He's also very maleable set wise. Except HJK, no move is really mandatory IMO. Personally, considering the current state of the meta, I'd go for:

- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt (because Venusaur)
- Bullet Punch (great cleaning move that makes up for Cham's sub-optimal speed)
- Fake Out (great way to scout sets and amazing synergy with BP)

Of course, forgoing Ice Punch has it's downsides. So has forgoing Thunder Punch, but it's my belief that the latter is the least required unless you're facing the mighty Alomomola.
His biggest nemesis is still Mega Sableye, so he benefits a lot from a partner who can deal with the little turd. Also, Scarf Lele is a huge problem to deal with.
All in all, I'm not supposed to nominate him yet, but boy does he look promising!

 

[pika pal]

I think one thing Medicham definitely has going for it is that it can get a lot farther on just its STABs thanks to both Lele and a shift in the typical bulky mons (Toxapex as the go-to Bulky Water type, for example) making it easier to work without certain coverage. As I said in the Mega Evolution thread, Medicham is battering ram that absolutely BRUTALIZES teams that generally rely on blanket checks (Tangrowth, Celesteela, Landorus-T, Bulky M-Scizor?) instead of dedicated answers to what it does, especially since the Mega Speed shift, while minor, does grant it some leeway to forgo one priority move, at which point Ice Punch helps to chunk things like Landorus-T and deal greater damage to things like +1 Zygarde. Granted the uses are few at best, but with STABs like that backed by Huge Power and less priority dependence than Mawile, that's usually all the coverage is needed for.

The major issue it faces (that it didn't have last gen) is that Dugtrio Stall has picked up, and Medicham basically needs Bullet Punch to beat Dugtrio with its Sash intact. Since Stall is Medicham's best match-up, that is a concern. And of course the usual problems of last gen persist, with its fraility and only okay speed, plus Sableye still being a nuisance without team support (though Lele and TP+Koko can help there).

Medicham's performance is going to be interesting to see. I'm particularly interested in whether or not the metagame's slowing down and shift from priority-to-speed still makes Adamant its objective best choice (probably will be, but you never know).

 

[Ema Skye]

Thunder Punch seems rather important on Medicham this time, as with Tapu Koko's help, it can actually break through Sableye and then bust through stall on its own. Throw in Bullet Punch for Dugtrio and things seem fine. It'll also hit Toxapex, and it can actually bust through the dual Regen cores on balance right now. ThunderPunch is also important for Celesteela, as you'll do 80%+ to it and not risk HJK recoil with Protect.

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega in Electric Terrain: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO - guaranteed if you manage to get any hazards down.

I'm looking at HJK/ThunderPunch/Ice Punch/Bullet Punch as the set. Zen would be needed for Venusaur, and if you don't run Koko, you should run Zen. Forgoing the second STAB sucks, but you're clicking HJK 90% of the time unless they have a Pex, Eye, Venu or Lando in the wings. I'd also go Adamant unless Jolly Lando picks up. Glad we have a second mega that can compete with MegaGross for top tier viability.

 

[A]

Seconding Ema Skye on the destructive capabilities of Mega Medicham + Tapu Koko, it also demolishes Skarmory's chances of switching in (ada can already do this but jolly only has a low chance to do so); bodies up Toxapex and smacks Clefable without using Zen Headbutt. It's also extremely easy to bring out; use U-turn on Tapu Koko as they pivot into Chansey, go into Mega Medicham and just click Thunder Punch. Stall's options are to heavily play the prediction game, sack something and use Dugtrio to kill it (bullet punch does around 65-80 ish), or sack something and let skarm force it out with the threat of Counter/Brave Bird (not a good idea.)

The popularity of things like Reun or Mew might spike up as the presence of Mega Medicham appears; maybe Mew could opt for a fast wisp/taunt set to outpace Adamant MMedi. Non CS Lele might swap to Timid to have a shot at bonking it if it's not jolly.

Calcs: (assuming Jolly)
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 398-470 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 125-148 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(adamant has slight increases in damage but nothing too relevant versus the threats above, although of course adamant possesses ridiculous power but a shift to jolly might be optimal as the presence of it is going to warrant stuff like Lele and Landorus to go +spe in the first place)

Of course it still has issues and is not completely unsinkable seeing as it no longer runs FO + BP, offense has a bigger shot at dismantling it but finding a switch-in is a huge nightmare.

 

[Randompizza]

tbh i think zen is better for it. Yea sure it has problems against mega sableye, but zen allows it to hit mega venu, alowak, and buzzwole for some pretty big damage. Not to mention hjk already destroys skarm and cele so tpunch isn't really needed. (could be used for z bounce gyara and thats it really)
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 220-261 (65.8 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 376-444 (94.4 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Only way I'd consider tpunch is if tapu koko is already on your team (not wasting a slot on koko just to make tpunch more powerful) even so zen provides nice ways to hit mons like the ones above as well as getting neutral damage of on stuff (neutral zen does more damage than neutral tpunch boosted by terrain, only a small difference but noticeable.)

 

[Sun King]

Gonna have to say I think Medicham is going to fit in really nicely this meta. It's always had favorable matchups against Stall, and it benefits from 3 of the ubiquitous terrains: Psychic (for insane Zen Headbutts and protection from priority), Electric (for nice Thunderpunches), and Misty (protection from burn and paralysis). Additionally, Sticky Web teams have been doing decently well this meta, so I can see Medicham running absolute train on offense on SW teams. All you really need to do is pair it up with something that can get rocks up against Sableye on Stall and you can 6-0 Stall with it.

Excited for this one; it should be a big force in the metagame.

 

[Kutscher]

I have seen almost no discussion about it, but i think one of the many factots that helps medicham this gen is that both scolipass and sticky web are really viable this gen, medicham biggest problem is not being Abel to outspeed offensive threats, now you can abuse a +3 spe mega medicham, also he is a pain in the ass for other new playstyles like rain and trick room(unless cofagirus starts to get popular) since every time pelliper/magearna comes to set up the field he Will OKO something(unless mega sab rain/tr becomes a thing like toxapex offense lol) while also burning turns of rain/tr with fake out.

 

[Leo]

I have seen almost no discussion about it, but i think one of the many factots that helps medicham this gen is that both scolipass and sticky web are really viable this gen, medicham biggest problem is not being Abel to outspeed offensive threats, now you can abuse a +3 spe mega medicham, also he is a pain in the ass for other new playstyles like rain and trick room(unless cofagirus starts to get popular) since every time pelliper/magearna comes to set up the field he Will OKO something(unless mega sab rain/tr becomes a thing like toxapex offense lol) while also burning turns of rain/tr with fake out.

The main issue with ScoliPass Medicham is that a smart opponent will force the recipient to take a hit by not giving Scoli free subs. Medicham being so frail makes it to where you can't really afford to take any hit and get put into range of priority when bp'ing into it so it kinda only works behind screens. Webs sounds lit tho

 

[Finchinator]

Pheromosa is now banned and, therefore, removed from the OP (it previously resided in the S tier). Please do not rush into discussing the post-Pheromosa metagame until you have a sufficient grasp on the changes that might occur because of this ban, thank you.

 

[Toshiro46]

Pheromosa S -> Ubers

Oh wait

In all seriousness;

Mega Beedrill C+ -> B-

Pheromosa's ban really helps M Beedrill out, since it's no longer completely irrelevant. Bar Mega Zam and Mega Dactyl, it's the fastest mon in OU now, which is pretty cool. Its STAB combination isn't half bad with all the psychics and fairies running about, and outspending both Grens and KOing them with U Turn is awesome. There's already been a lot said about it, so I'm loathe to be too redundant. On the other hand, Lando-T still exists. I don't know exactly how much better it is, but B- definitely seems like a better place for it now, as a starting point. At the very least, it's somewhat of a replacement for Mosa now.

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

A+ ---> S


Drops

S ---> Banned

Greninja has been hovering between A+ and S for a long time, and now it's time to officially put it back in S. While the meta still hasn't had much time to settle after Mosa being banned, if anyone has played the Suspect ladder, you all should know just how absolutely insane Greninja is right now. Without the best hazard remover in the tier, Greninja is able to get up Spikes with ease throughout the match, and there is very little counterplay to it considering that offensive teams now no longer have a strong way to remove hazards outside of Latios and Exca which both lose to Gren, while bulkier teams are forced to rely on removers such as Fini, Zapdos, and Skarmory, all of which are heavily pressured by it. Not only that, but its AoA set is very difficult to wall defensively, especially with Extrasensory becoming practically standard on it now. Mosa was not only a splashable Greninja check but also a solid hazard remover, so with its departure, Greninja just got a whole lot better, and with its ability to keep Spikes up on the field so easily, it heavily pressures any sort of reliable defensive counterplay that Greninja already lacked. With Greninja being able to get up Spikes so easily, Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, which already lacks reliable switch-ins, only become that more problematic, and it's all thanks to the immense amount of offensive pressure Greninja provides through Spikes and coverage. It's easily one of the best Pokemon, if not THE best in the tier right now, and it is fully deserving of its place back in S rank.

 

[Dakress]

With Pheromosa gone, can I finally nominate these guys?:

B --->B +

B + --->A -

I used these 2 quite a lot during the suspect test, and holy moly the UB really affected these 2 guys badly.

For Serperior, only the Greninjas, Koko and the scarfed mons can kick it out for good, which means it has tons of rooms to wreak havoc. A well played SubSeed Serperior can be stall's biggest nightmare, quite possibly even beating it on it's own, and the standard LO set can also work well on HO (which also benefits from having the cockroach gone). No idea about how effective a Z-Hyper Beam set can be, so I'm excluding it in the meantime.

Weavile is that strange mon with a bad/good defensive/offensive typing resisted mostly by Tapu Fini/Primarina, M-Sharpedo & Bisharp. STAB Knock Off and Pursuit can be super useful, it has Poison Jab to deal with Fairies & Low Sweep for stuff weak to it, like Ferrothorn, Greninja (which just so happens to outspeed for some reason and thus it could work as a check of sorts for it), Tyranitar, etc. It can also scare M-Metagross if the latter doesn't have Bullet Punch or there's Psychic Terrain active.

Edit:

Weavile is outsped by A-Gren and is KOed by Hydro Pump and can even be KOed by Water Shuriken after SR.

Greninja needs to be already transformed to beat Weavile. If it isn't, even Water Shuriken fails to beat it (unless you have Spikes/SR):
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 180-215 (64 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Toshiro46]

With Pheromosa gone, can I finally nominate these guys?:

B --->B +

B + --->A -

I used these 2 quite a lot during the suspect test, and holy moly the UB really affected these 2 guys badly.

For Serperior, only the Greninjas, Koko and the scarfed mons can kick it out for good, which means it has tons of rooms to wreak havoc. A well played SubSeed Serperior can be stall's biggest nightmare, quite possibly even beating it on it's own, and the standard LO set can also work well on HO (which also benefits from having the cockroach gone). No idea about how effective a Z-Hyper Beam set can be, so I'm excluding it in the meantime.

Weavile is that strange mon that just so happens to be outspeed only by scarfers and Koko, everything else, including both Greninjas, can be dealt with with a LO Low Sweep. It can also work as a nice check for M-Metagross under Psychic Terrain.

Wanna know what you guys think.

Weavile is outsped by A-Gren and is KOed by Hydro Pump and can even be KOed by Water Shuriken after SR.

 

[Ramses]

C+ -> B-/B
Granted, I suggest this rise with trepidation, but Starmie seems fit for one at this moment. I've always believed it was decent even with Phero around, but with Phero gone, along with solid hazard removal for offensive teams, Starmie can now be more thoroughly considered for hazard removal. The only viable forms of hazard removal available in the tier now is Defog Latios / Latios, Tapu Fini, Mega Scizor, Zapdos, and Rapid Spin Excadrill, as well as Starmie. Out of these Pokemon only two are able to remove hazards on their side of the field: Excadrill and Starmie. Such a feat is a monumental boon considering how Spikes are literally the face of the metagame at this moment. It's true that you could run Defog + Spikes to a decent effect, but this is such a hassle considering how gamechanging even one layer being up is. The state of each Defogger is also in question considering Tapu Fini isn't in the best at the moment due to how it loses to almost every hazard setter in the tier 1v1 due to being easy to exploit. For example, Greninja and Ferrothorn both beat Tapu Fini quite easily and can effortlessly setup their Spikes with little trouble since Fini dare not switch-in for fear of Gunk Shot or Power Whip. Against Stealth Rockers, Landorus-T / Garchomp usually overpowers it due to it's lack of recovery, Heatran is mostly likely Bloom Doom, the only users it can actually threaten are the more passive ones like Clefable and Jirachi. The Lati Duo invites in very dangerous Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Mawile and Scizor, as well as underdogs like Bisharp; giving them a turn to turn the tables is not exactly favorable and Metagross + Scizor with Pursuit is starting to become a bit more common to prevent them from removing hazards without a price. Zapdos and Mega Scizor are perhaps the most consistent of Defoggers right now, with Zapdos being more threatening to the setters than Scizor. Exacadrill is in a pretty bad position in the metagame right now with all the competition it gets as a Ground and Steel-type so it is usually unfavorable.

So where does this leave Starmie? Notwithstanding, it too has it's own issues such as the extreme influence both Greninja forms exert on the tier as well as the general popularity of Tapu Koko, AV Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, and Scarf Gengar. However, this doesn't keep Starmie from doing it's job: removing hazards. Spinblockers that can actually block Starmie are a rarity as Gengar, Alolan Marowak, and Mega Sableye are the most common Ghost-types in the tier and none can switch into Starmie without major repercussions or being flat out KO'ed. Starmie is also an excellent attacker as Analytic boosted Hydro Pumps are nothing to scoff at, as well as the possibly of Psychic Terrain boosted Psyshock / Psychics. It also packs expansive coverage options to adapt to a team's needs such as Thunderbolt if weak to bulky Water-types or HP Fire (which should be ran) to prevent Ferrothorn setting up Spikes in it's face. It's typing isn't too bad at all; it's a decent at best switch-in to Keldeo as well as an offensive check to a large amount of threats such as Zygarde, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Heatran, Terrakion, etc.

So overall, Starmie seems deserving of a rise due to it's fantastic offensive capabilities and most importantly, it's ability to easily remove hazards on it's side of the field without removing hazards on the enemy's field. Yes, it does have it's own individual issues, but with how necessary hazard removal has become in such a Spikes infested metagame, the few flaws it does have can be overlooked in favor of a rise.

tl;dr - starmie should rise because spikes are everywhere and it's one of the few reliable sources of hazard removal that doesn't remove your own spikes. it also has a good matchup against nearly every hazard setter in the tier so it's job is usually easy to fulfill while also bringing other advantages to your team.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Pheromosa S -> Ubers

Oh wait

In all seriousness;

Mega Beedrill C+ -> B-

Pheromosa's ban really helps M Beedrill out, since it's no longer completely irrelevant. Bar Mega Zam and Mega Dactyl, it's the fastest mon in OU now, which is pretty cool. Its STAB combination isn't half bad with all the psychics and fairies running about, and outspending both Grens and KOing them with U Turn is awesome. There's already been a lot said about it, so I'm loathe to be too redundant. On the other hand, Lando-T still exists. I don't know exactly how much better it is, but B- definitely seems like a better place for it now, as a starting point. At the very least, it's somewhat of a replacement for Mosa now.

Mega Beedrill is still a shitmon that loses everything in the tier. I don't think there's anything more that I can say that hasn't already been said countless times before but it still loses to Lando, Celes, Zygarde, Toxapex, Ferrothorn and the list goes on and on. It is no longer outclassed but it's still terrible.