Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Mega Beedrill is still a shitmon that loses everything in the tier. I don't think there's anything more that I can say that hasn't already been said countless times before but it still loses to Lando, Celes, Zygarde, Toxapex, Ferrothorn and the list goes on and on. It is no longer outclassed but it's still terrible.
Pheromosa loses to AlolaWak, Gengar, Toxapex, Mega Scizor, Ash Greninja, Scarf Lele, and Mimimkyu but did that ever make it bad in OU? Just because a pokemon has some chacks and counters doesn't mean that its terrible and shouldn't rise when its #1 competitor is removed from OU, and I would second a rise for Mega Beedrill to B- at least.
 
Pheromosa loses to AlolaWak, Gengar, Toxapex, Mega Scizor, Ash Greninja, Scarf Lele, and Mimimkyu but did that ever make it bad in OU? Just because a pokemon has some chacks and counters doesn't mean that its terrible and shouldn't rise when its #1 competitor is removed from OU, and I would second a rise for Mega Beedrill to B- at least.
Irrelevant because the shit that Bee loses too are the best pokemon in the tier both defensively and offensively, and are extremely splashable on all play styles.
 
Mega Beedrill is still a shitmon that loses everything in the tier. I don't think there's anything more that I can say that hasn't already been said countless times before but it still loses to Lando, Celes, Zygarde, Toxapex, Ferrothorn and the list goes on and on. It is no longer outclassed but it's still terrible.
Out of the S mons, Beedrill takes out either Gren easy as it outspeeds and KOs with u turn and can survive a water shuriken. Megagross can't switch into it because it takes 50% or so from U Turn, and Lando of course walls it.

A+ is much less favorable, because everything bar A-Gren (mentioned already) and Lele don't take shit from its moves. Well, Zygarde takes a cool 40% from U turn, and Mawile is 2HKOed by Drill Run, but besides that.

A is up and down. Drill has nothing to fear from dug and won't stay in on ferro, but does good damage with u turn on it. It outspeeds and OHKOes gengar with knock off and 2HKOes Chomp with U Turn. Heatran is KOed by Drill Run, while Magearna is 2HKOed by it. The other steel in A, Mega Scizor, walls it pretty much. Tangrowth, Koko, and Volcarona are all KOed or close to it by Poison Jab. Toxapex is a 3HKO by Drill Run.

Finally, in A-, we have both Chars and Amoonguss. X and Amoonguss are 2HKOed by PJab, but CharY takes 90% from PJab so it's dead after chip. Clef is fucked by PJab, Zone by Drill Run, Alowak by Knock Off (not quite a OHKO but Alowak is useless after it anyway). MPinsir is 2HKOed by PJab (but no way Drill is staying in to finish the job when Quick Attack exists), MSableye takes 50% from U turn, Skarm walls it, Bulu is fucked by PJab, Fini is 2HKOed by it, and MVenusaur is 3HKOed by either STAB.

Not a lot that straight up walls it. Lando, Celesteela, Skarmory, MScizor, and Ferro (mostly) are the main ones. Toxapex and MVenu work pretty well too. Knock Off and Drill Run, both of which it can run now due to the speed buff, are pretty great for coverage. Other than them, The Bee 2HKOs pretty much everything else in A-S, and a lot of that comes from U Turn. Which is, of course, its main purpose.

Also, there's fell stinger as an option now, and a lot of the 2HKOs above become OHKOs (and even the 3HKOes like Toxapex and MVenu are in range of a OHKO) after a +3 boost if you opt to run it over Knock off or Drill Run.

Not saying that it's particularly good, because I don't think it is, but it's now the best at what it does: fast, powerful U-Turns for momentum coupled with a solid fairy check and an option to clean late game.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
This might be an easy one to suggest, considering that there was already a fair amount of support for it.

Tangrowth: A -> A+
People were already suggesting this pre-Mosa ban and it got a lot of support with how well it blanket checks so much of the meta on its own, such as Zygarde, Tapu Koko, Metagross and Greninja (both formes). However, Pheromosa was an issue, as Bug Buzz or U-Turn still did uncomfortable amounts of damage, and Tangrowth often didn't do enough damage to dissuade Pheromosa from coming in.

The suspect test revealed how dominant Greninja is in the meta without Pheromosa, and Tangrowth rises to the challenge of being one of the best options to answer it thanks to the Assault Vest. Alternatively, you can go with the Rocky Helmet set to be a solid answer to Mega Metagross, Mawile or the new Medicham, and it will always be OU's best answer to Zygarde. It's a fantastic glue mon that was already borderline A+ pre-Mosa, but it's a lot more worth it now without the space bug.
 
Out of the S mons, Beedrill takes out either Gren easy as it outspeeds and KOs with u turn and can survive a water shuriken. Megagross can't switch into it because it takes 50% or so from U Turn, and Lando of course walls it.

A+ is much less favorable, because everything bar A-Gren (mentioned already) and Lele don't take shit from its moves. Well, Zygarde takes a cool 40% from U turn, and Mawile is 2HKOed by Drill Run, but besides that.

A is up and down. Drill has nothing to fear from dug and won't stay in on ferro, but does good damage with u turn on it. It outspeeds and OHKOes gengar with knock off and 2HKOes Chomp with U Turn. Heatran is KOed by Drill Run, while Magearna is 2HKOed by it. The other steel in A, Mega Scizor, walls it pretty much. Tangrowth, Koko, and Volcarona are all KOed or close to it by Poison Jab. Toxapex is a 3HKO by Drill Run.

Finally, in A-, we have both Chars and Amoonguss. X and Amoonguss are 2HKOed by PJab, but CharY takes 90% from PJab so it's dead after chip. Clef is fucked by PJab, Zone by Drill Run, Alowak by Knock Off (not quite a OHKO but Alowak is useless after it anyway). MPinsir is 2HKOed by PJab (but no way Drill is staying in to finish the job when Quick Attack exists), MSableye takes 50% from U turn, Skarm walls it, Bulu is fucked by PJab, Fini is 2HKOed by it, and MVenusaur is 3HKOed by either STAB.

Not a lot that straight up walls it. Lando, Celesteela, Skarmory, MScizor, and Ferro (mostly) are the main ones. Toxapex and MVenu work pretty well too. Knock Off and Drill Run, both of which it can run now due to the speed buff, are pretty great for coverage. Other than them, The Bee 2HKOs pretty much everything else in A-S, and a lot of that comes from U Turn. Which is, of course, its main purpose.

Also, there's fell stinger as an option now, and a lot of the 2HKOs above become OHKOs (and even the 3HKOes like Toxapex and MVenu are in range of a OHKO) after a +3 boost if you opt to run it over Knock off or Drill Run.

Not saying that it's particularly good, because I don't think it is, but it's now the best at what it does: fast, powerful U-Turns for momentum coupled with a solid fairy check and an option to clean late game.
Are you willing to provide any replays of it actually doing anything of note in a competative tournament settings (so not a room tour) or on higher ladder.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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I wouldn't really call Tangrowth a Protean Greninja answer at all. All of them carry Gunk shot which does upwards of 70% to it if AV, and Ice Beam is another commonly carried coverage move which just dicks all over it. The most it can do is pivot into it once and try to scout which Ninja it is, but even then, the amount of damage it takes from that move will easily put it in range of Gunk Shot. Not saying that Tangrowth shouldn't be A+, but it's far from a Protean Greninja answer, it's a very soft check at best. If you depend on AV Growth as your primary Greninja answer, you're going to have a lot of issues.
 
C- => C+

I remember when we had about half a page of discussion about this thing and it didn't really go anywhere afterwards, so I'm going to share my thoughts on the subject.

Hydreigon has a lot of flaws, we can all agree on that, from it's crippling 4X weakness to one of the most common types right now to a not-too-good 98 speed to being weak to common things like Fighting and Ice. It's not in the best position right now. But putting it in with stuff like Blissey, Torkoal and bloody Cofagrigus is just a crime, especially when it does so much to the upper tier. It's Life Orb 3 Attacks + Roost set is probably one of it's better one's right next to scarf. Life Orb Draco can do so much on a unresistant hit and Dark Pulse can wear down walls that don't resist it pretty well, it also has pretty good coverage moves in Fire Blast and Earth Power for Toxapex and specially defensive Celesteela.

Time to show some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Defensive Landorus has a chance to be OHKO'ed after rocks.)

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 307-361 (101.9 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(You survive any attack Metagross can hit you with at full health bar Hammer Arm, Ice Punch has a low chance to KO after rocks.)

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 218-257 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This is a fully invested Celesteela and it still gets 2HKO'ed, heavy slam has pretty piss poor chances of 2HKOing you. It gets even better the less specially defensive it is. I know fire blast does at least 75% on physically defensive variants and I think it has a chance to OHKO on sweeping variants)

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 221-260 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Do I need to explain myself here? It kills one of the most bulky pokemon in OU by clicking a move twice)

Looking at all these calcs are impressive and all, but who cares when the opponent can just bring in their Tapu and scare you out? Well about that.....

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 146-173 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Tapu Lele cannot switch into a Hydreigon using Dark Pulse and is out sped and 2HKO'ed, it has to come in freely or when it switches into a dragon move)

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 317-374 (112.8 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Even Max HP AV sets cleanly 2HKO and set lacking Super Power fail to do much to Hydreigon, Stone Edge not even 2HKOing even when fully invested adamant)

But what about Tapu Koko?

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 192-227 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Hydreigon can't risk staying into a already in Tapu Koko, but can predict a switch into koko, do at least 68%, and switch out, even Dark Pulse can do about 40%, which really deters it from constantly switching in)

The only Tapu that Hydreigon struggles to do anything against is Fini, which leads me to my next point.

Hydreigon can pair with many relevant pokemon very well, it forms a solid core with mons such as Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile, covering each others weaknesses defensively and offensively.
It also pairs well with toxapex

Hydreigon also has so much versatility to it, it can run Earth Power for Toxapex, it can run Flash Cannon to 2HKO most fairies and can even run Taunt is you want more of a stallbreaker set.

Now I'm not saying that Hydreigon is some un-tapped potential pokemon or something, it really isn't, hell it isn't that particularly good in SM OU. But the fact that it's on the same level as the mega somehow worse then the normal form, the ghost wall that has no reliable recovery and the turtle who's most viable abuser of it's weather effect is normal Venusaur when it can do all of the stuff above just makes it an un-fair rank in my opinion.

I'm not that particularly experienced in OU metagame, so feel free to correct me if you feel I'm wrong.
 
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Are you willing to provide any replays of it actually doing anything of note in a competative tournament settings (so not a room tour) or on higher ladder.
I don't have any replays, but I don't need to have replays since it's already ranked.

It's not like replays will show anything unexpected. It's a pretty straightforward mon, since it really only runs 6 moves (with some niche stuff like roost, SD, Pursuit or even Pin Missile if you're feeling lucky) and one EV spread. Plus, Fell Stinger is an effective 100 BP move coming from 150 base attack that if it KOes, you get a physical tail glow. That's nice. With Phero gone, there's an open niche for the fastest, strongest u turns. It also 1-2HKOs quite a bit of the tier with STAB and its two coverage moves. B- is incredibly reasonable for that.

Another thing I realized while writing this is that while it does have a pretty mediocre STAB combo, Knock off and Drill Run mean that you can hit the three things that resist both Bug and Poison (ghost, poison, and steel) for SE damage. Between STAB and those two moves, there's not a lot you won't be hitting for 2x damage. The only existing type combos you won't be doing 2x to are Bug/Poison, Poison/Flying, Steel/Flying, Ground/Flying, Rock/Flying, Bug/Steel, and Ghost/Fighting (might have missed one). Poison/Flying and Rock/Flying are irrelevant to OU, Bug/Poison is irrelevant to OU besides Beedrill itself and Scolipede, and Steel/Flying, Ground/Flying, and Bug/Steel only have 4 mons between them in OU. Ghost/Fighting is lol. So basically, you'll be hitting everything in OU but those 6 mons for 2x damage (be it from Adaptability STAB or SE Dark/Ground coverage), which means everything except those 6 mons doesn't want to take a hit from Beedrill (excepting MVenu and Pex because they're ridiculous, but including Beedrill and Scoli because they're have no bulk).

Everyone knows its weaknesses - being walled by Cele, Lando, and Mega-Scizor isn't fun, and neither is its pitiful physical bulk. It's also rocks weak and prone to being worn down.

Even so, U turn is awesome and one of the best moves in the game, and Beedrill is the fastest and most powerful user of it. It deserves B-.

Hydreigon can pair with many relevant pokemon very well, it forms a solid core with mons such as Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile, covering each others weaknesses defensively and offensively.
One thing you didn't mention is that Toxapex (the premier wall rn) and Hydreigon have almost perfect defensive type synergy. Toxapex resists Fighting, Bug, Ice, and Fairy, the types that hydreigon is weak to (dragon is the only one it doesn't resist), while Hydreigon is immune to psychic and ground and resists electric. It's worth mentioning because a Toxapex/Hydreigon core is definitely something to consider.
 
I don't have any replays, but I don't need to have replays since it's already ranked.
it's to strengthen your argument but ok lol
It's not like replays will show anything unexpected. It's a pretty straightforward mon, since it really only runs 6 moves (with some niche stuff like roost, SD, Pursuit or even Pin Missile if you're feeling lucky) and one EV spread.
replays would actually show it doing something. I, and many other people, have never seen Beedrill do anything other than click U-Turn a couple times a game. Landorus is at 60% usage and double steel is damn near mandatory on a team due to Metagross running around. It has literally no role compression or strong enough role like any of the mons in B and needs EXTREME support to successfully fit on a team. It's literally only running 4 attacks or 3 attack with SD if you're feeling juicy. Fell Stinger is extremely bad.
Plus, Fell Stinger is an effective 100 BP move coming from 150 base attack that if it KOes, you get a physical tail glow. That's nice. With Phero gone, there's an open niche for the fastest, strongest u turns. It also 1-2HKOs quite a bit of the tier with STAB and its two coverage moves. B- is incredibly reasonable for that.
Fell Stinger is extremely bad
Another thing I realized while writing this is that while it does have a pretty mediocre STAB combo, Knock off and Drill Run mean that you can hit the three things that resist both Bug and Poison (ghost, poison, and steel) for SE damage. Between STAB and those two moves, there's not a lot you won't be hitting for 2x damage. The only existing type combos you won't be doing 2x to are Bug/Poison, Poison/Flying, Steel/Flying, Ground/Flying, Rock/Flying, Bug/Steel, and Ghost/Fighting (might have missed one). Poison/Flying and Rock/Flying are irrelevant to OU, Bug/Poison is irrelevant to OU besides Beedrill itself and Scolipede, and Steel/Flying, Ground/Flying, and Bug/Steel only have 4 mons between them in OU. Ghost/Fighting is lol. So basically, you'll be hitting everything in OU but those 6 mons for 2x damage (be it from Adaptability STAB or SE Dark/Ground coverage), which means everything except those 6 mons doesn't want to take a hit from Beedrill (excepting MVenu and Pex because they're ridiculous, but including Beedrill and Scoli because they're have no bulk).

Everyone knows its weaknesses - being walled by Cele, Lando, and Mega-Scizor isn't fun, and neither is its pitiful physical bulk. It's also rocks weak and prone to being worn down.
anything good about this pokemon is drowned out by the fact that's its walled by the most used pokemon [Lando]. Walled by all steel types, bar Tran. HAS to run magnezone to cover this horrible weaknesses. NEEDS hazard removal because it has a rock weakness and will be click U-Turn vs common spikers like Ferrothorn and Greninja. It can't sweep until the opposing scarfer is dead because it loses to literally every relevant scarfer. So it can't break because its walled by everything in the tier. It can't sweep because it can't beat any scarfers. It provides no defensive utility. You must dedicate Zone + Remover to your team. I could just slap a Greninja or Koko on my team and still get a fast uturn and the usefulness of being a productive team member.

It has a fast and strong U-turn. That's its "niche", sure whatever. But raising it because something outclasses it was banned, when there are no other significant meta shifts that are in its favor is completely pointless. I'm sure talking about Beedrill gives everyone aids so this will definitely be my last post regarding it, unless you SOMEHOW provide some godly argument to change my mind.

EDIT @ below. You use far too much hyperbole.
 
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it's to strengthen your argument but ok lol

It has a fast and strong U-turn. That's its "niche", sure whatever. But raising it because something outclasses it was banned, when there are no other significant meta shifts that are in its favor is completely pointless. I'm sure talking about Beedrill gives everyone aids so this will definitely be my last post regarding it, unless you SOMEHOW provide some godly argument to change my mind.
At this point, nobody is going to bother arguing with you anymore since you made it clear you don't wanna hear it. Your whole argument stems from connecting two extremes, which isn't getting anywhere so far, and you're still ignoring why Mega Beedrill was ranked at all. It wasn't ranked for Fell stinger or its strong U-Turn *niche* but rather that's its so damn fast and hits like a nuclear missile which allows it to put insane pressure on offense, notably being able to outspeed and OHKO Tapu koko and Ash Greninja. Also, where do these mythological Offense-Team Toxapex, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn come from? Its incredibly difficult to stack hazards in the face of Mega Beedrill when it can U-Turn out of incoming Landorus and Skamory and OHKO offensive hazard setters like greninja and azelf and remove hazards later with defog, via forced switches, and can even find setup opportunities on these hazard stacking attempts, so its not like it will sit there, and watch hazards go up just like that.

anything good about this pokemon is drowned out by the fact that's its walled by the most used pokemon [Lando]. Walled by all steel types, bar Tran. HAS to run magnezone to cover this horrible weaknesses. NEEDS hazard removal because it has a rock weakness and will be click U-Turn vs common spikers like Ferrothorn and Greninja. It can't sweep until the opposing scarfer is dead because it loses to literally every relevant scarfer. So it can't break because its walled by everything in the tier. It can't sweep because it can't beat any scarfers. It provides no defensive utility. You must dedicate Zone + Remover to your team. I could just slap a Greninja or Koko on my team and still get a fast uturn and the usefulness of being a productive team member.
Mega Beedrill is a glass cannon, simple as that, Its not used to sweep or break down walls or provide defensive utility, where do you find that on a glass cannon? Any glass cannon? Where? Its *completely pointless* niche is the same exact niche that kept alakazam and genger OU viabile for over 20 years. What it truly does is simple, it hard checks half of OU's offensive pokemon such as koko/gren/lele/serperior (a thing with pheromosa bye bye) and still force a switch on the spot while ripping a hole in the incoming pokemon and gaining momentum in the processes. If I were to use you're logic on Tapu koko, then Tapu koko would be horrible because it only has one *niche* in using powerful electric STAB but loses to Landorus-T, Alola-Wak, Tapu Bulu, and Excadrill and these mons are plentiful, therefore, Tapu koko--->D rank right? You briefly mention a pokemons niche in OU and the connect the two extremes, but you ask evidence when someone says otherwise? No metagame trend has happened for Mega Beedrill, true, except one so big that it shakes the halls of the earth upon its announcement, that Pheromosa is banned, and I won't even go into detail on that, because I don't have to. This point has been made clear so many times, that I don't know what to say anymore, except that Mega Beedrill hasn't gotten any worse with Pheromosa's ban, and should rise at least a single rank.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Really I kind of want to to know what important cores bee can deal with like Tapu Bulu heatran(if terrain isn't up), but I can see it pairing up amazingly with lando hp ice to counter other lando/rocky helmet/rough skin besides thorn/skarmory with get bodied by magetzone if bee/lando abuses knock off.

Idk bee might form some awesome cores
 
it's to strengthen your argument but ok lol
replays would actually show it doing something. I, and many other people, have never seen Beedrill do anything other than click U-Turn a couple times a game. Landorus is at 60% usage and double steel is damn near mandatory on a team due to Metagross running around. It has literally no role compression or strong enough role like any of the mons in B and needs EXTREME support to successfully fit on a team. It's literally only running 4 attacks or 3 attack with SD if you're feeling juicy.
Well, I don't currently have the means to get or provide any worthwhile replays, and my argument is plenty good without them. Just because you and "many other people" have never seen it do anything worthwhile doesn't mean it doesn't do anything worthwhile. Anecdotal evidence is completely useless, especially since "many other people" is lol.

So far as B- mons go, we have stuff like Zydog, which is utterly worthless in the face of its big brother. We have stuff like Mew, which is a bad defogger (and little else) even by the mediocre standards current defoggers set. We have Kabutops, which is complete trash except on Rain and even then it's subpar. We have Mega Gyarados, which is worse than its non-mega form and pretty much never worthy of a teamspot when better water/darks, better gyaradoses, and better megas exist. We even have Bronzong, and its only reason for existence is being a good check to Megagross and a mediocre wall/rocks setter. You talk about Bee needing support? Kabutops needs an entire team built around it, Zydog needs the support of Zygarde being banned so it can be relevant, and Mew needs the support of you losing control of your senses. What even is Mew's niche? A secondary Aurora Veil setter? None of these mons strike me as being significantly better than Bee, because most of them are just trash mons. Pretty sure Bee being with other trashmons that have a small niche isn't a terrible thing.

Fell Stinger is extremely bad
Debatable. Fell Stinger does around 30% to Megagross and Zygod, it OHKOes both Grens, does 50+% to Lele and AV Tang, and up to 40% on Amoonguss. Basically, it still hits reasonably hard as it's an effective 100 BP move coming off of base 150 Atk. And +3 MegaBee wrecks house. Fell Stinger MegaBee is undoubtedly an option (I might even hazard to say a good option) for late game cleaning.

anything good about this pokemon is drowned out by the fact that's its walled by the most used pokemon [Lando]. Walled by all steel types, bar Tran. HAS to run magnezone to cover this horrible weaknesses. NEEDS hazard removal because it has a rock weakness and will be click U-Turn vs common spikers like Ferrothorn and Greninja. It can't sweep until the opposing scarfer is dead because it loses to literally every relevant scarfer. So it can't break because its walled by everything in the tier. It can't sweep because it can't beat any scarfers. It provides no defensive utility. You must dedicate Zone + Remover to your team. I could just slap a Greninja or Koko on my team and still get a fast uturn and the usefulness of being a productive team member.
Being walled by one pokemon (one very-easy-to-wear-down pokemon) does not a trashmon make. SD Garchomp is walled by Defensive Lando-T (and 2HKOed by HP Ice) and that specific set of Chomp's is currently ranked at A.

Being weak to rocks isn't worthy of keeping it down in C+ either. 4 mons in A- and A are 4x weak to rocks, ffs. They get by.

It's not a sweeper, it's a u turner that can clean late game or break pretty well mid game.

It can't sweep until the opposing scarfer is dead because it loses to literally every relevant scarfer... It can't sweep because it can't beat any scarfers.
Quoting this specifically because it's so damn funny. What's another rocks weak mon that loses to literally every relevant scarfer? I'm thinking Volcarona, the best special sweeper in the tier. Someone should tell the tier leaders that Volcarona is a trash sweeper because it can't beat any scarfers.

It provides no defensive utility... so like the last two mons that were suspected? Dug and Phero? Or like both Grens? All of them can't take anything but resisted hits, and it hasn't stopped them yet.

So it can't break because its walled by everything in the tier.
2HKOing the majority of shit in the tier ≠ walled by everything in the tier. Not sure where you're getting that from.

And you're going to dedicate a remover on pretty much any good team because of webs offense and just removing in general. SR sucks.

Koko U-turn does roughly 1/4th of Bee's U-Turn. A-Gren's is less than 1/3rd. It's a noticeable difference.

As for MegaBee's performance against steels? Well... here's some calcs (with commentary) showing how much it cares about the steels of OU (B- to S Rank included, and tl;dr it doesn't have to run Magnezone):

Steels that MegaBee has no regard for:

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 344-408 (109.9 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 372-440 (96.3 - 113.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Steels that don't want to switch into MegaBee because it 2HKOs them and then outspeeds them too just to rub salt in the wound:

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 136-162 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 294-346 (81.2 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 136-160 (52.5 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Steels that don't get 2HKOed but still don't appreciate taking hits from MegaBee and really qualify as checks, not walls:

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 154-182 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - I almost put this with the 2HKOs but knock off loses power so it doesn't quite count. Still, Knock off on the switch and U-turn on the next turn take most (90%+) of Zong's health away.

252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 114-136 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - I wouldn't particularly want my incoming Ferro (to answer Bee and force it out) to take 40% and then have to face whatever MegaBee switches out to. Sounds like a recipe for set up fodder.

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 114-135 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery - It's something that actually walls it pretty well. Even so, taking a knock off is not something Cele relishes, because that 30% suddenly isn't going away and hey look Bee is U turning for another 10% into something that Cele doesn't particularly want to stay in on.

Steels that actually wall MegaBee:

252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 68-80 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery - Ah yes, an actual wall. Surprise! Skarmory walls physical attackers! Who knew?
252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO - Oh, look, the one thing that can stand up to Megagross consistently doesn't really care about physical attackers. Surprise!

It has a fast and strong U-turn. That's its "niche", sure whatever. But raising it because something outclasses it was banned, when there are no other significant meta shifts that are in its favor is completely pointless. I'm sure talking about Beedrill gives everyone aids so this will definitely be my last post regarding it, unless you SOMEHOW provide some godly argument to change my mind.
Pheromosa being banned is a huge meta shift in its favor; VoltTurn teams had no reason to run Bee when Mosa existed, and now they do. As I've said again and again, MegaBee's U Turn is not to be underestimated. The meta hasn't developed enough for me to tell exactly what's going to change, but I do know that as people start to prepare less for Mosa's U turns, they'll just become weaker to Bee's. What gives people AIDs is dismissing a mon out of hand without explanation of whatever stupid reason you're dismissing it out of hand for. Saying shit like "Fell Stinger is extremely bad" without actually explaining your (poor) reasoning gives people AIDs. Arguing that a mon is garbage just because one other mon walls it gives people AIDs. Spouting condescending shit in hopes that no one notices your poor argument gives people AIDs.
 

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Debatable. Fell Stinger does around 30% to Megagross and Zygod, it OHKOes both Grens, does 50+% to Lele and AV Tang, and up to 40% on Amoonguss. Basically, it still hits reasonably hard as it's an effective 100 BP move coming off of base 150 Atk. And +3 MegaBee wrecks house. Fell Stinger MegaBee is undoubtedly an option (I might even hazard to say a good option) for late game cleaning.
Ok not really looking to get involved with the Bee discussion cause it's a horrible mon but Fell Stinger is plain bad. Like there are wastes of moveslots and next is Fell Stinger and just from you mentioning it as an option I can assume you haven't really tested the move on the ladder cause it's not only extremely situational (when are you ever getting a kill with a 50BP bug type move on a mon walled by half of the meta) but also extremely easy to manage because at +3 you still don't break your regular checks aka mzor landot skarm. And there's also the fact that any good offense team lacking a reliable answer for some reason has something to outspeed and ohko the bee. Literally there's not a single scenario where Fell Stinger Bee would do something better than a regular one cause late game you should be either cleaning already or not doing it cause your opponent has a good team, if your opponent has an answer to Bee you'll never get the boost and if they don't you don't need it
e: ok don't wanna sound rude whatsoever tbh but I'm kinda tired of people mentioning FS as a good option on Bee when the hype kinda died like a week ago
 
Ok not really looking to get involved with the Bee discussion cause it's a horrible mon but Fell Stinger is plain bad. Like there are wastes of moveslots and next is Fell Stinger and just from you mentioning it as an option I can assume you haven't really tested the move on the ladder cause it's not only extremely situational (when are you ever getting a kill with a 50BP bug type move on a mon walled by half of the meta) but also extremely easy to manage because at +3 you still don't break your regular checks aka mzor landot skarm. And there's also the fact that any good offense team lacking a reliable answer for some reason has something to outspeed and ohko the bee. Literally there's not a single scenario where Fell Stinger Bee would do something better than a regular one cause late game you should be either cleaning already or not doing it cause your opponent has a good team, if your opponent has an answer to Bee you'll never get the boost and if they don't you don't need it
e: ok don't wanna sound rude whatsoever tbh but I'm kinda tired of people mentioning FS as a good option on Bee when the hype kinda died like a week ago
I never really understood why Mega Bee was such a controversial topic here.

Back when Phero was in OU it was pretty obvious that Beedrill just wasn't worth using with Phero around, the only real thing it had over phero was the fact that it's U-Turns hit harder and it had a nice posion stab for fairies but that doesn't change the fact that Landerous chuckled at it and it took up a mega slot. I really don't know why people argued for it.

Even with Phero gone it still has it's issues like having only 6 viable moves, getting one shot by literally everything, having to rely on hitting steels on the switch to kill them with drill run and getting worn down by rocks.

It's really not that good of a mega tbh but if people want it to rise that badly then just do it so not every second post is about beedrill because I'm so sick of seeing people arguing back and forth responding with very tongue and cheek answers to each other and not really getting anywhere with it.
 
Starmie to rise

I would like us to look at Starmie. It's the only Rapid Spinner left in the tier besides Excadrill and this is important because Spikes if everywhere and Defog doesn't synergize well with Spikes. Between its Speed and coverage, I feel that it can actually find turns to remove hazards as it beats most hazard setters in the tier besides Greninja. The only spinblockers in the tier are Mega Sableye and Gengar, both of which hates taking Analytic boosted Hydro Pumps. It also beats rising stuff like Mega Scizor, Tangrowth (non-AV), Ferrothorn, Toxapex and Keldeo. With all that said, I think Starmie deserves a rise.
 
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Well, I don't currently have the means to get or provide any worthwhile replays, and my argument is plenty good without them. Just because you and "many other people" have never seen it do anything worthwhile doesn't mean it doesn't do anything worthwhile. Anecdotal evidence is completely useless, especially since "many other people" is lol.
isnt this a bit ironic? you say that mega bee puts in work, but you only use anecdotal evidence, then get mad at people for questioning this for using anecdotal evidence. you are the person who is trying to prove that mega bee is actually not garbage, so you need to provide actual evidence.
So far as B- mons go, we have stuff like Zydog, which is utterly worthless in the face of its big brother. We have stuff like Mew, which is a bad defogger (and little else) even by the mediocre standards current defoggers set. We have Kabutops, which is complete trash except on Rain and even then it's subpar. We have Mega Gyarados, which is worse than its non-mega form and pretty much never worthy of a teamspot when better water/darks, better gyaradoses, and better megas exist. We even have Bronzong, and its only reason for existence is being a good check to Megagross and a mediocre wall/rocks setter. You talk about Bee needing support? Kabutops needs an entire team built around it, Zydog needs the support of Zygarde being banned so it can be relevant, and Mew needs the support of you losing control of your senses. What even is Mew's niche? A secondary Aurora Veil setter? None of these mons strike me as being significantly better than Bee, because most of them are just trash mons. Pretty sure Bee being with other trashmons that have a small niche isn't a terrible thing.
zydog is pretty bad and you could probably make an argument for that dropping, not because its worse than bee, just that it's outclassed by 50%

kabutops is actually a really good swift swimmer. rain boosted LO waterfall hurts a lot. most offensive mons like lele and koko get ohko'd. Its actually useful on rain teams. mega bee fails to be as useful as kabutops even if it has the proper support, which it needs more of.

i agree that m-gyarados may need a drop

as for bronzong, do you know how good being able to counter both gross and lando in this meta? its a really good thing to be. sure its kinda bad outside of that, but that alone gives it a solid enough niche for b-

depending on the set, mew can actually do work. base 100s and a stupidly good movepool is really nice for a poke. a form of hazard control is always a good thing, something that many mons including beedrill need. mew might not be the best mon, but it certainly is better than bee.

some other b- mons, such as mantine, actually have representation in high level play. bee has seen almost no success in tournament. i do agree that b- is kind of a mess right now, but id rather make the argument that some things should drop, instead of mega bee rising.
Being walled by one pokemon (one very-easy-to-wear-down pokemon) does not a trashmon make. SD Garchomp is walled by Defensive Lando-T (and 2HKOed by HP Ice) and that specific set of Chomp's is currently ranked at A.
beedrill is walled by every single landorus set. there is nothing bee can do. its forced to u-turn almost every single time it comes in, because guess what? lando stops it in its tracks every single time it wants to do something.
Being weak to rocks isn't worthy of keeping it down in C+ either. 4 mons in A- and A are 4x weak to rocks, ffs. They get by.
correct, but it just adds another flaw to an already bad poke.
Quoting this specifically because it's so damn funny. What's another rocks weak mon that loses to literally every relevant scarfer? I'm thinking Volcarona, the best special sweeper in the tier. Someone should tell the tier leaders that Volcarona is a trash sweeper because it can't beat any scarfers.
volcarona can put itself in a position to where it cant be revenged by every scarfer. one or two quiver dances, and volcarona becomes extremely hard to revenge. bee is ALWAYS able to be revenged by common scarfers
 
The problem with Beedrill is that its coverage is awful. I like the mon a lot and it can be cool on specific teams, but it really can't do a whole lot overall. Too many defensive threats. It only fits well on trapping teams, and even that is suspect at best since Lando-T beats Beedrill, Dugtrio, and Magnezone. It is pretty much stuck in limbo since way too much can get a free switch in on it and it can be revenged killed very easily by any scarfer. With Mega Mawile and now Medicham released, there is way too much Mega competition as well.
 
The problem with Beedrill is that its coverage is awful. I like the mon a lot and it can be cool on specific teams, but it really can't do a whole lot overall. Too many defensive threats. It only fits well on trapping teams, and even that is suspect at best since Lando-T beats Beedrill, Dugtrio, and Magnezone. It is pretty much stuck in limbo since way too much can get a free switch in on it and it can be revenged killed very easily by any scarfer. With Mega Mawile and now Medicham released, there is way too much Mega competition as well.
Honestly I think people should just not use mega beedrill and let it fall down to UU where it'll definitely be S/A+

My only concern is that it'll have a too great of an effect on the teir due to the new mega buffs.
 
Ok not really looking to get involved with the Bee discussion cause it's a horrible mon but Fell Stinger is plain bad. Like there are wastes of moveslots and next is Fell Stinger and just from you mentioning it as an option I can assume you haven't really tested the move on the ladder cause it's not only extremely situational (when are you ever getting a kill with a 50BP bug type move on a mon walled by half of the meta) but also extremely easy to manage because at +3 you still don't break your regular checks aka mzor landot skarm. And there's also the fact that any good offense team lacking a reliable answer for some reason has something to outspeed and ohko the bee. Literally there's not a single scenario where Fell Stinger Bee would do something better than a regular one cause late game you should be either cleaning already or not doing it cause your opponent has a good team, if your opponent has an answer to Bee you'll never get the boost and if they don't you don't need it
e: ok don't wanna sound rude whatsoever tbh but I'm kinda tired of people mentioning FS as a good option on Bee when the hype kinda died like a week ago
This so called 50-base power Fell stinger is actually 100 base power when you factor in Adaptability and hits nearly as hard as Tapu koko's volt switch, which I assume doesn't ever get a kill? Fell Stinger is not a godsend move for Mega Beedrill at all, yeah, its a last slot filler move that can come useful when picking off weakened pokemon if you have no point in clicking U-Turn. A +3 Mega Beedrill is easily manageable according to you, eh?

+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 642-756 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 318-376 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 484-570 (141.5 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+3 252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 276-326 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO


Yeah, I feel yah.
 
This so called 50-base power Fell stinger is actually 100 base power when you factor in Adaptability and hits nearly as hard as Tapu koko's volt switch, which I assume doesn't ever get a kill? Fell Stinger is not a godsend move for Mega Beedrill at all, yeah, its a last slot filler move that can come useful when picking off weakened pokemon if you have no point in clicking U-Turn. A +3 Mega Beedrill is easily manageable according to you, eh?

+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 642-756 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 318-376 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 484-570 (141.5 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 276-326 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO


Yeah, I feel yah.
Good luck getting that when Beedrill is constantly pressured all day long. And if you are running Knock Off+Fell Stinger, I like the forever walled by Heatran and almost every other steel mon set you got there.
 
Can we like, lock Beedrill discussion for the time being?

People are acting like it's some sort of sudden godsend when mosa hasn't even been banned for a day...

Whenever people talk about this thing they always cherry pick situations and make it seem great on paper when anyone that's used it knows it's nothing like that in practice.

Hell, I'd even want this thing to be dropped, but that is besides the point. It details the thread so much when there's other, much more relevant and important things we can talk about.
 
Can we honestly stop talking about Beedrill lmao I feel every player that has any knowledge of team building composition or watches tour play should see why this thing shouldn't rise or even be discussed.

Medicham just came out and Mosa was banned and the first big discussion we have is mega Beedrill lmao. I know I didn't help in that regard but c'mon.
~
So this isn't a post chastising people even when I have no power or authority to do so.

How do people feel with
-> S
In lieu of the mosa ban Zygarde lost a check. The band set has absolutely no switch ins since outrage can crush AV Tang, the more common set, with don't chip. With the introduction of Thousand Arrows there are no more ground immunities. Things like Def Lando get 3HKO'd, Ferrothorn takes a huge chunk, Spdef Celes gets 2HKO'd blah blah you know what it does. click arrows and be fat.

Another set like SubCoil manhandles fat teams nearly single handedly and is one of the few stall breakers that doesn't need to fear Dugtrio. (as much) it also provides unique defensive utility since it's so fat, being able to set up on common steel types like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Helps wear down fat grasses and Lando with toxic.

Dragon Dance is also on the rise and gives it the ability to actually sweep with its unresisted STAB. With the addition of Sitrus and it's fatness it's ability to find plenty of opportunities to set up opportunities. Extreme Speed on the DD and Band sets are invaluable and give it in edge in smacking weaker mons through spikes and whatnot. Acts as a fall back switch in to Volc Chomp etc.

If anyone wants and replays let me know.

EDIT so I'm not double posting. Starmie should rise with the best spinner being banned and the Analytic set making sure nothing can spin block it.
 
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Okay guys, chill. All this is really consisting of at this point is theorymonning and one-line responses not even 24 hours after a huge metagame shift. The same stuff is being re-iterated over and over; let's just put the Beedrill talk to rest until we get replays of its effectiveness (or lack thereof) so we can accurately decide its place in the meta. Let's get back to healthy discussion for now, yeah?
 
Gary is gonna yell at us LOL mega bee talk is aids.

Starmie rise sounds good in all honesty. Rapid Spin is extremely valuable and extremely hard to find. The only set I see having any viability is the Analytic set because defensive sounds horrible in this meta. nothing spin blocks it and with the best spinner getting banned this at least has its place again.

Discussion for Zygarde to S should be fun imo.
Starmie rising is good without Phero since it beats most rock setters and can pressure many switch-ins. However, even with Analytic, I think Scald might be better than Pump right now. The chance to Burn mons is hard to pass up. The problem with Starmie is what to run right now. Water Move and Spin, sure, but what do you pick between T-Bolt, Ice Beam, and Psyshock. And then there is Item. I don't know about Life Orb right now in this meta on Starmie, but I don't know how hard it can hit without the added damage.
 
Starmie rising is good without Phero since it beats most rock setters and can pressure many switch-ins. However, even with Analytic, I think Scald might be better than Pump right now. The chance to Burn mons is hard to pass up. The problem with Starmie is what to run right now. Water Move and Spin, sure, but what do you pick between T-Bolt, Ice Beam, and Psyshock. And then there is Item. I don't know about Life Orb right now in this meta on Starmie, but I don't know how hard it can hit without the added damage.
Imo HP Fire is pretty important because you lose pretty hard to Ferrothorn (and Mega Scizor) otherwise. Then, you either use Psychic (otherwise Toxapex / Keldeo walls you), Ice Beam (Dragons and Grass), or Thunderbolt (for bulky Waters. You still can't 2HKO Celesteela)
 
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