Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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I'm going to cover all nomination except Zygarde to S because Subject 18's post and all of the other counter arguments have managed to change my mind about it. Anyways,

Mantine B-B+ Agree
Mantine is one of the few special Defensive walls who have reliable recovery via roost, which makes its job of walling other threating special attacking pokemon like Volcorona(especially Volc) way easier. Its weakness to rocks does hold it back, but roost does its job very well. It is more consistent than all the other B pokemon like what matthewc20090 said. Most of my points are already covered by him, and based on his reasoning, Mantine should be raised to B+

Volcorona A+-A Agree
Volc simply isn't as threatening compared to a few weeks ago. It is so much easier to handle now and the introduction of mega tyrannitar doesn't help it a bit. Subject 18 already covered most of the important points, and in conclusion, based mostly on his reasoning and the few points that I made, Volc should drop. I barely see him on the ladder anymore. He has like 5.something % usage?(correct me I'm wrong) Most people have gone over the Volc hype I suppose.
 
EDIT: apparently Magearna already got moved to S, read this as : Why Magearna should stay S
Magearna A+ -> S

As many of you already know, Magearna's rise to S rank has been a topic of discussion for the past few days. I'd like to summarize all of the phenomenal stuff Magearna does in OU and try to convince you that it belongs in S rank, right next to Landorus-Therian.

1. Rise of the Shift Gear set
With the ban of Mega-Metagross Magearna has an incredibly easy time sweeping through offense with this set. Shuca Berry can help it target its ground weakness while a simple use of Stealth Rock by its team combats its weakness to STAB fire attacks. Z-crystals, in particular Fairium Z and Fightinium Z allow Magearna to nuke a Pokemon and gain a special attack boost to go from there, however Electrium Z can be used as a lure for pokemon such as Toxapex and Celesteela. In addition to that, it can be completely unchecked by scarf user such as Greninja and Nihilego that aim to target mainly Volcarona. It also has a solid matchup against Balance, only struggling against Stall where it manages to force out Mega-Sableye and can sometimes combat Dugtrio with Shuca Berry.

2. Utility of the Assault Vest set
Thanks to it's great Fairy/Steel typing and access to Volt Switch this pivoting blanket checking monstrum of a set has been around since the start of SM OU. It is the best psychic resist in the tier as well as the best overall Greninja answer. The one thing holding this set back from being on every team is that it fits rather poorly with the best current Megas Mega-Scizor and Mega-Mawile and is hard to fit onto Mega-Charizard Y teams, however, some Mega-Pinsir action might interesting.

3. Standalone Trick Room set as well as daddy of Trick Room Teams
The standalone Trick Room set used to be the go-to for most offensive Magearna, however, Shift Gear has kind of taken its position in the metagame... for now? It is undeniable that the set itself is very threatening in OU as the combination of bulk and offensive powerhouse via Z-Crystals has the potential to destroy most teams.
However, this is not where Magearna's use of Trick Room ends. By itself it has created a new viable archetype in OU, which is dedicated Trick Room. Until this generation, good Trick Room setter where mostly psychic/ghost types , limiting the defensive utility a Trick Room team was able to have (such as dark resists). For example in this blunder live at the top of the OU ladder 3/7 teams were Trick Room. If you think dedicated Trick Room is a gimmick then your knowledge is outdated, because Magearna begs to differ.
 
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Nihilego B -> B+

Nihilego is mostly great in the OU meta as a Tapu killer. It's great SpDef allows it to take hits from all of them and return more damage with a sludge bomb or wave. The Tapu's are very popular in this meta, so Nihilego can destroy them. Some useful calculations versus the Tapu's:

252+ SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 708-832 (251.9 - 296%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nihilego outspeeds, but if it doesn't, every physical attacker can OHKO it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Grassy Terrain: 550-648 (153.2 - 180.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 270-318 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nihilego does need some speed investment to keep outspeeding. As for defense, Assault Vest allows it to tank Hydro Pumps.
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Nihilego: 140-168 (38.9 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hydro Pump's poor accuracy may also be taken in account, which means Nihilego can take maybe more than 3.

252+ SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 422-500 (150.1 - 177.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nihilego can always OHKO Tapu Koko, however, Tapu Koko outspeeds every Nihilego.
Due to Tapu Koko's poor physical movepool, the special set is usually ran. If physical Tapu Koko is run, Nihilego might run in some problems.
252 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Electric Terrain: 477-563 (132.8 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lastly, Tapu Lele is a problem with psyshock. While Nihilego can ohko it with sludge wave:
252+ SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 296-350 (105.3 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And even live a choice specs psychic (if the Lele is timid)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Nihilego in Psychic Terrain: 290-344 (80.7 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But psyshock, due to targeting the psysical defense, can destroy Nihilego,
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Psychic Terrain: 1070-1260 (298 - 350.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nihilego also has a niche in walling almost every special attacker, especially with Assault Vest. It's great speed also allows it to revenge kill a lot of Pokemon, giving it beast boost. If the EV spread is done correctly, it can get SpAtk boosts after knocking Pokemon out. While also having a deep movepool of Rock, Poison, Psychic, Electric and even Fairy and of course having the option of running Hidden Power. It lastly has acces to Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rocks. Due to being a versatile counter to four of the best Pokemon in the OU metagame, I think UB-01 should be ranked to at least B+, as it's problem in psysical moves can be countered with 5 other Pokemon on a OU team.


 

Colonel M

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I completely disagree with a Nihilego rise. Nihilego was dropped not too long ago and nothing has changed in favor of it within the metagame. The only potential swing in its favor are Protean Greninjas running less Extrasensory and sometimes not bothering with Hydro Pump. Once again Nihilego's STABs are a major issue to the majority of Steel-types - almost to the point of relying on Magnezone to eliminate them. Magnezone can't even reliably dispose of Magearna and disposing of Mega Scizor isn't always easy unless you have Hidden Power Fire on Nihilego (which leaves you even worse against Zygarde and Garchomp) or running a lot of Speed on Magnezone - which is fine, but does compromise bulk. Beating the Tapus is not really a great reason for it to rise when it struggles against a lot of Scarf users and fails to revenge kill Charti Volcarona reliably (+2 HP Ground OHKOes).

No change on Nihilego except for a drop. The only reason it could be seen mildly better is because Specs can be tricky to switch into sometimes, but that's about it. It is pretty bland in SM OU atm.

The few other recommendations made in here:

Agreed to Mega Tar up. Mega Tyranitar is rather damning against a lot of current meta trends and has immense bulk to sometimes set up Dragon Dance twice. Pairing this thing with Tapu Bulu grants rather insane synergy. With Slowbro (and Mega Slowbro) not being extremely common yet Stone Edge / Ice Punch / Fire Punch handles the majority of threats in the current SM OU tier. Even if Bros were to increase in popularity Crunch is a big bite against them.

Also in agreement with Mantine rise. Mantine is pretty underrated - it covers a lot of nasty threats currently at the cost of a Stealth Rock weakness. The only way for rain to even bypass this thing is through lures like Stone Edge Mega Swampert or crippling with Toxic Kingdra (which also means a somewhat less consistent Tangrowth matchup). I can reason that Mantine may still be B Ranked as it still has exploitable issues such as being rather passive and quadruple Electric weakness is a pain, but support options help this tremendously.

I might discuss more later. I will also say Mega Manectric's rank is rather accurate.. I have no real opinion on Mega Slowbro just yet only because I haven't used or seen a ton of it, but it does have a lot of great qualities with 3 Attacks Mega Slowbro against the current metagame. I might also discuss Kartana up, but again saving that for later when I'm not at work.
 
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honestly i think that the arguments for zyg to stay a+ are kind of weak



sub coil zyg is a perfectly legitimate set because of how much the existence of the cb set helps it. for example you listed mons such as magearna and gren as answers to coil zyg but none of those switch into cb thousand arrows. also magearna is not an answer to zyg when it can just stall out fleur cannon with substitute for spa drops; mage needs ice beam to win. how does it volt switch out of a zygarde ?_? additionally, common cb switchins like bro, lando, unaware clef etc just get set up on and/or worn down if zyg has toxic (best fourth move imo).



this argument is stupid. tang + steel vs. zyg is a prediction reliant situation and should not be used to make a point. if anything the 50/50 is in the zyg user's favor, like if zyg uses karrows or dd and growth stays in then it takes like 50% (?) from hp ice, while if the growth player predicts wrong then they lose a mon or zyg gets another dance and it's all over.

the lando argument is more legitimate, because lando actually takes +0 drake fairly well even if it doesn't protect (and hp ice does a chunk back) pressuring zyg to dance again. protect lando hates facing toxic zyg variants (coil or cb) however making it a bit of an inconsistent answer because toxic causes it to lose so much longevity.

i am aware that zyg can't run all these sets at once but it honestly has so few consistent answers due to how cb covers so much of the meta and how all of the usual switchins despise sub/toxic/ddrake. because of this i believe that it should rise to S

i agree with volc to A as well, it has a bunch of cool lures it can use but none of them really hit that much, plus consistent answers to it are becoming more common. like i'm pretty sure ttar can take on even bug buzz variants if it's healthy. everyone prepares for it so it rarely actually sweeps, like a lesser version of zard x syndrome

indifferent on mega ttar to a-. like i get how it's really bulky and stuff but how does it somehow stay at full health while setting up? like it has so many weaknesses to the stab moves of high ranked stuff. i would like to see some replays of this thing in action before forming an opinion on it
Not sure how others think abt this but I do not like it when people call an argument stupid. Regardless of that, you got to make a difference between offensive SubCoil and Spdef SubCoil. I am asuming you are talking abt Spdef SubCoil , because I said Gren can eat 2 Tarrows from 0 Atk Zygarde. That does not mean Gren should switch in, just showing how weak a 0 atk Zygarde is compared to a 0 atk Landot or 0 atk Magearna on top of not having a momentum grabbing move, which devalues Spdef Zygarde, a Set someone praised as a Gengar switch in, as a pivot. Please understand, that when I use the words bad or not good it always means in relative to its other potential Sets. I would call Choice Scarf Greninja bad because its other Sets are more viable, not because it is bad in general. That is why I said we should only focus on the good Sets when talking about a potential raise to S. When Gary made the post abt Magerna going S, he only mentions the good Sets and those are Shift Gear, Trick Room and Assault Set. He could have mentioned that Painsplit+Leftovers Magearna can be good, but that Set wouldnt be a good argument for a Magearna raise because it is bad in relative to its three best Sets.

That is why I said we should only focus on the good and consistent Zygarde Sets when considering a raise and those are Choice Band, Dragon Dance+Z-Outrage, SubDD, DD+Coil with Sitrus, and maybe Offensive SubCoil with Espeed>Toxic.

Also it is not hard to predict the Set on Zygarde. If it is some kind of HO-Team, then Zygarde is definitely Dragon Dance. On Bulky Offense it gets tricky:
If you have a super healthy Lando-T and Tangrowth in the back and your opponent tries to bring in Zygarde whenever possible, it is obvious that it wants to Toxic those healthy counters.
If your opponent uses mons that can reliably weaken Lando-T alongside Zygarde (Mega Mawile as example) and he brings in Mawile before Zygarde when he gets the possibility, it is probably Dragon Dnace Zygarde and he tries to weaken you with Mawile first.

Also it is not that easy these days to get off a Dragon Dance safely. Mew runs Ice Beam to break your Sub, Celesteela can run HP Ice so you do not get a free Sub/DD. You can say Zygarde shaped the meta in a way, that every team is kinda forced to have HP Ice/Ice Beam/Moonblast on a defensive mon and to have an strong Choice Band answers that makes this mon S, you can also argue that the prevalance of these mons HP Ice everywhere prevents from Zygarde going havoc.

For Magearna there is not much you can do. Depending on the Z-Move your "would be counter" is not a counter. Spdef Mew? SG+CM beats it and can maybe sweep your team after that like this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-591511724

Using AV Magearna as a Shift Gear Magearna counter? Sorry, SG+CM beats that as well. Spdef Jirachi as counter? Well thats a toughy but luckily trappable by Dugtrio lol. Even Spdef Amoonguss/MVenu (after losing their Sleeping Move or during a sleeppreventing Terrain) cannot counter that one Magearna Set. Even if you waste your Z-move on Magearna on a sack, you still get a +1 Spat boost. If Zygarde mispredicts and wastes his Z-Move, you lose every momentum you had.
 

NG Spencer

Banned deucer.
Mega Venusaur -> B/B+

While venu is by no means as good as tangrowth, it definitely has advantages over it that should cause it to rise instead of sharing a rank with garbage like kartana. After gross got banned, venusaur lost a counter and was no longer forced to compete with it for a mega slot. Now, using it means you cant use mawile or zard y, but neither of those are as good as gross when it was allowed. After the ban, magearna became the best steel type in the tier, being able to sweep teams easily with its shift gear set while also serving as an av pivot. Venusaur is one of the only pokemon that can reliably counter mageranas shift gear set, while tangrowth usually does this too, it still has to worry about the 3hko from ice beam. Mawile is another pokemon that gives tangrowth trouble who can be handled by venusaur. Thanks to zygardes influence on the tier, tapu bulu has become much better with its sd, as it can soak up arrows and deal damage with sd. Since zen headbutt is relatively uncommon, venusaur is able to counter bulu easily, while tangrowth is cannot for the life of it counter bulu thanks to z moves koing it, even if physically defensive. Venusaur also handles zapdos and manectric since it takes neutral damage from fire thanks to thicc fat. One other perk venusaur has over tangrowth is countering opposing tangrowth since none of its moves do any damage, meaning you never have to worry about a which team member is going to lose its item when facing one. Venusaur does all of this while still being an effective answer to koko, non extra gren, and pre evolved ash gren. Venusaur does face a major flaw in that it gets worn down quickly by hazards, especially in a spike infested meta, however, thanks an increase in mews popularity, keeping hazards off the field is not that challenging. Furthermore, leech seed is one other small advantage venusaur has over tangrowth as it can not only keep itself healthy, but a teammate who has no reliable recovery, such as heatran or tapu fini.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 113-133 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 68.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 108-127 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 15.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 68-82 (18.7 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth in Grassy Terrain: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth in Grassy Terrain: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 432-509 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth in Grassy Terrain: 486-572 (120.5 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 198-233 (54.5 - 64.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 176-207 (48.4 - 57%)

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 102-120 (28 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 212-250 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 56-68 (15.4 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO
 
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+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 105-125 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Bulu gets 3HKOed at worst from Thousand Arrows at +1 from the DD offensive set even if Grassy Terrain doesn't weaken TArrows and can Horn Leech up with the CB set or set up with the SD set to easily gain all the HP it lost. Sure, Iron Tail is a thing, but the three attacks it gets (Thousand Arrows, Outrage, ESpeed) are too valuable to give up for one mon. That being said, Zygarde's amount of switchins is still hilariously low and it still should go to S. Basically lemme sum it up for you, in short, as everyone else has already stated my thoughts:

Celesteela and other flying types: lol Zygarde where's your sweep now

Zygarde: Bitch, get down here. *Thousand Arrows hits flying mons*

Flying types: WELL THEN
Forgot Tapu Bulu, my bad. Tough the Band set is likely to carry either Toxic or Iron Tail on the fourth slot...

Bold Clef isn't 2hkod and has softboiled.
Even with Protect and Wish, some Zygardes have gotten a clean 2HKO on my fully physically defensive Clefable after SR damage (it has Unaware to take on the boosting sets of both Garde and Magearna without Flash Cannon).
 
I think it's pretty funny that half the arguments for Zygarde moving up are actually the same arguments for it moving down. My personal opinion is that it should absolutely stay in A+. When we talk about S ranks, we're talking about mons that absolutely DEFINE the metagame; A+ mons are ones that excel superbly in it. Zygarde, to me, fits in the latter category. It's undeniable that Landot defines this metagame, and for me, it's harder to say Zygarde defines anything since answers to it are already sort of called for by the rest of the meta. Having Karrows is what lets it stand out and excel, but it's not something that DEFINES the meta, not like Ground/Flying typing and 140 base Atk EQs. On the same note, I think Magearna absolutely defines a portion of the metagame in that Steel/Fairy STAB and either Trick Room or Shift Gear are sets that WILL stomp you without specific answers. To this, I still believe Greninja deserves an S ranking because it truly does define a portion of the metagame; it's just something we're so used to at this point that it seems underwhelming.

Zygarde is really good full stop. It fits in perfectly with our metagame, but I do not believe it deserves to be peers with Landot or Magearna.
 
I think it's a fair claim to make the nomination of Lando-T S -> S+. Now before we start arguing agaisnt this, let me explain why I think this way.


Lando-T is hands down the best Pokemon in our current OU metagame, there is no argument against that, it can fill so many roles in our metagame that its just become this staple on every team, similar to PDon in Ubers. We got sets like SR Defensive, Z-Move sweeper, Dual Dance, Scarf, Band, Sash suicide lead, Smack Down, and what I believe the best set is, Z-Move Rocks. What I believe makes this Pokemon above all the other Pokemon in the OU tier is the amount of roles this Pokemon can fulfill in any team, it can just be slapped on any team and pretty much do well. I can compare this Pokemon to PDon in Ubers, who to mention is also S+. They preform very similar roles in their respective tiers. Stealth Rocks, DD, Offensive, you get the point. The reason I do compare these mons to be nearly identical in the way they play in their tiers is due to their roles. Both VERY similar. But this leaves the case, why is Lando-T not in S+, but PDon is? Maybe it's because there are no other Pokemon that can be "S Rank" but with Magearna recently rising to S Rank, and the current ongoing argument of Zygarde being S Rank, I believe now is the time to put Lando-T in S+. I believe it is a true "meta defining Pokemon," and I believe it should not be in the same rank as Magearna, due to what Magearna gives to the tier vs what Lando-T can give to the tier. I believe wholeheartedly in terms of current "viability" Lando-T is above everything, the king of OU as you may call it. With the amount of options Lando-T can bring to the table, similar to PDon in Ubers, I believe Lando-T deserves its own individual spot in S+.
 
I think it's pretty funny that half the arguments for Zygarde moving up are actually the same arguments for it moving down. My personal opinion is that it should absolutely stay in A+. When we talk about S ranks, we're talking about mons that absolutely DEFINE the metagame; A+ mons are ones that excel superbly in it. Zygarde, to me, fits in the latter category. It's undeniable that Landot defines this metagame, and for me, it's harder to say Zygarde defines anything since answers to it are already sort of called for by the rest of the meta. Having Karrows is what lets it stand out and excel, but it's not something that DEFINES the meta, not like Ground/Flying typing and 140 base Atk EQs. On the same note, I think Magearna absolutely defines a portion of the metagame in that Steel/Fairy STAB and either Trick Room or Shift Gear are sets that WILL stomp you without specific answers. To this, I still believe Greninja deserves an S ranking because it truly does define a portion of the metagame; it's just something we're so used to at this point that it seems underwhelming.

Zygarde is really good full stop. It fits in perfectly with our metagame, but I do not believe it deserves to be peers with Landot or Magearna.
No Greninja is good were is it, saying its better than Zyg or the same level as Magearna and Landorus is not a fair comparison. Bulk steel types like Celesteela and Magearna have made things hard for it, while Steela is not a surefire check thanks to HPFire ninja still has trouble breaking through it and either takes a good chunk from HS, Quake or gets seeded, A-Mag eats his attacks very well while giving back some heavy damage or pivoting to something else and while the other sets take some good damage from HPFire or Pump they can set up once with TR or SG and go cleaning from there. Bulky psychic types (mostly Mew and Reuniclus) have put another setback for it now it has to worry about stuff like Mew coming in and deffoging his hazzards, burning it or knocking his Item or reuniclus stacking calm minds on it, sure Dark Pulse can solve those problems but now it can't check Keldeo, M-Venu, Thorn, M-Scizor, Magearna, Celesteela, Mantine and so on depending what coverage its dropping, the meta is faster than before, between fast scarfers like Chomp, Keldeo and Latios and naturally faster mons like M-Mane, Weavile, M-Zam, M-Scep and Koko it can't clean teams like before, it can use a scarf set to outspeed and KO those threats but I haven't used one so I can't comment on it. Its a very good mon but it doesn't shape the meta as Magearna or Lando-T and its not as defining as Zygarde.

About Zygarde its fine wer it is, TA gave it a new life and while it has ways to bypass his counters it still not able to mindless spam TA and call it a day. His checks are everywhere, its difficult to not find a team who don't has a Lando, Tangrowth, Bulu, M-Scizor and Thorn, with Superpower for Thorn and toxic as a way cripple the others it still a little difficult to break with a band. His others sets are kinda match up reliant, DDZ-Move can bypass his checks with the proper Z-Move but still can be played around, while it goes both ways being stuck to mind games of set up more, attack with Z-Move or hit the mon who is staying its a little shaky, the Coil sets either lack coverage or are too passive so it gets a worse on the matchups and while a Zyg behind a sub with a few boosts its threatning it still has trouble dealing with his checks like Growth and Lando or lack immediate power. I belive the band its his best set anything who can't outspeed while hitting it hard or resists ground takes heavy damage from TA, Outrage helps against ground resists not named Bulu, but being locked on dragon its not good and even with a band his moves still lack some power. Its a very threatning mon, I believe its the best A+ mon, I can't see it on the same level as Magearna and Lando-T who are threatning from the get go while bringing a lot more.

And finally about Volcarona. I think a drop sounds reasonable, the meta has adapted for his Z-moves sets even the Charti sets to a extent, every playstyle has a way to handle it be it with scarfs like Chomp or Keldeo or something who can eat his Z-move like Zygarde(Z-Psychic and HPIce hurts a lot though), Mantine, Chansey and TTar. While a very dangerous mon who is able to sweep easily with the proper support I see it the same as M-Pinsir, they share some of the same points both use a Item slot who can only be used once for team(Mega stone or Z-Stone), both are Rocks weak, and both are very good sweepers with the proper support. I believe it more on the level of the A mons so I support a drop.
 
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No Greninja is good were is it, saying its better than Zyg or the same level as Magearna and Landorus is not a fair comparison. Bulk steel types like Celesteela and Magearna have made things hard for it, while Steela is not a surefire check thanks to HPFire ninja still has trouble breaking through it and either takes a good chunk from HS, Quake or gets seeded, A-Mag eats his attacks very well while giving back some heavy damage or pivoting to something else and while the other sets take some good damage from HPFire or Pump they can set up once with TR or SG and go cleaning from there. Bulky psychic types (mostly Mew and Reuniclus) have put another setback for it now it has to worry about stuff like Mew coming in and deffoging his hazzards, burning it or knocking his Item or reuniclus stacking calm minds on it, sure Dark Pulse can solve those problems but now it can't check Keldeo, M-Venu, Thorn, M-Scizor, Magearna, Celesteela, Mantine and so on depending what coverage its dropping, the meta is faster than before, between fast scarfers like Chomp, Keldeo and Latios and naturally faster mons like M-Mane, Weavile, M-Zam, M-Scep and Koko it can't clean teams like before, it can use a scarf set to outspeed and KO those threats but I haven't used one so I can't comment on it. Its a very good mon but it doesn't shape the meta as Magearna or Lando-T and its not as defining as Zygarde.

About Zygarde its fine wer it is, TA gave it a new life and while it has ways to bypass his counters it still not able to mindless spam TA and call it a day. His checks are everywhere, its difficult to not find a team who don't has a Lando, Tangrowth, Bulu, M-Scizor and Thorn, with Superpower for Thorn and toxic as a way cripple the others it still a little difficult to break with a band. His others sets are kinda match up reliant, DDZ-Move can bypass his checks with the proper Z-Move but still can be played around, while it goes both ways being stuck to mind games of set up more, attack with Z-Move or hit the mon who is staying its a little shaky, the Coil sets either lack coverage or are too passive so it gets a worse on the matchups and while a Zyg behind a sub with a few boosts its threatning it still has trouble dealing with his checks like Growth and Lando or lack immediate power. I belive the band its his best set anything who can't outspeed while hitting it hard or resists ground takes heavy damage from TA, Outrage helps against ground resists not named Bulu, but being locked on dragon its not good and even with a band his moves still lack some power. Its a very threatning mon, I believe its the best A+ mon, I can't see it on the same level as Magearna and Lando-T who are threatning from the get go while bringing a lot more.

And finally about Volcarona. I think a drop sounds reasonable, the meta has adapted for his Z-moves sets even the Charti sets to a extent, every playstyle has a way to handle it be it with scarfs like Chomp or Keldeo or something who can eat his Z-move like Zygarde(Z-Psychic and HPIce hurts a lot though), Mantine, Chansey and TTar. While a very dangerous mon who is able to sweep easily with the proper support I see it the same as M-Pinsir, they share some of the same points both use a Item slot who can only be used once for team(Mega stone or Z-Stone), both are Rocks weak, and both are very good sweepers with the proper support. I believe it more on the level of the A mons so I support a drop.
You're missing the entire point I was trying to make. I'm not saying Gren is as good or better than anything; I'm saying it defines the meta. And I'm not talking just Protean, I'm talking both forms, since each are very dangerous and require answers. As for Protean specifically, if you only look at it in terms of the "designated sets", sure, it is underwhelming in comparison. But it can just as easily can be tailored to fit whatever it needs to, so I think Greninja is an incredibly different kind of threat than anything else.
 
You're missing the entire point I was trying to make. I'm not saying Gren is as good or better than anything; I'm saying it defines the meta. And I'm not talking just Protean, I'm talking both forms, since each are very dangerous and require answers. As for Protean specifically, if you only look at it in terms of the "designated sets", sure, it is underwhelming in comparison. But it can just as easily can be tailored to fit whatever it needs to, so I think Greninja is an incredibly different kind of threat than anything else.
You also missed my point. You're really implying its as meta defining a Lando-T or Magearna because you need to guess which frog you're dealing with or which coverage the frog got ? Everything you mentioned happened before for the frogs you still had to guess the frog, the moves of both frogs and the protean one still fell to A+, it simply not as effective as before. They both are very good mons but nothing has changed for them to be deserving a raise its simply not on the same level of meta defining as Mag and Lando-T, they are fine with the rest of the A+ who are also meta defining but not as much as the other two.
 
I think it's a fair claim to make the nomination of Lando-T S -> S+. Now before we start arguing agaisnt this, let me explain why I think this way.


Lando-T is hands down the best Pokemon in our current OU metagame, there is no argument against that, it can fill so many roles in our metagame that its just become this staple on every team, similar to PDon in Ubers. We got sets like SR Defensive, Z-Move sweeper, Dual Dance, Scarf, Band, Sash suicide lead, Smack Down, and what I believe the best set is, Z-Move Rocks. What I believe makes this Pokemon above all the other Pokemon in the OU tier is the amount of roles this Pokemon can fulfill in any team, it can just be slapped on any team and pretty much do well. I can compare this Pokemon to PDon in Ubers, who to mention is also S+. They preform very similar roles in their respective tiers. Stealth Rocks, DD, Offensive, you get the point. The reason I do compare these mons to be nearly identical in the way they play in their tiers is due to their roles. Both VERY similar. But this leaves the case, why is Lando-T not in S+, but PDon is? Maybe it's because there are no other Pokemon that can be "S Rank" but with Magearna recently rising to S Rank, and the current ongoing argument of Zygarde being S Rank, I believe now is the time to put Lando-T in S+. I believe it is a true "meta defining Pokemon," and I believe it should not be in the same rank as Magearna, due to what Magearna gives to the tier vs what Lando-T can give to the tier. I believe wholeheartedly in terms of current "viability" Lando-T is above everything, the king of OU as you may call it. With the amount of options Lando-T can bring to the table, similar to PDon in Ubers, I believe Lando-T deserves its own individual spot in S+.
I knew this argument would come up eventually. Lando-T should not be S+ because it is not mandatory on teams nor does the meta revolve entirely around that Pokemon.

Listen the reason Lando-T is not S+ is not because other Pokemon don't compare to it, that's not how tiers work. No it's because it does not single handedly make certain Pokemon good and others bad. Just because Garchomp loses to Lando-T doesn't mean it's bad. If a Pokemon loses to Pdon in Uber's chances are it drops in viability immensely. (If you bring up Xerneas you know nothing about how Uber's teams work)
Second point in Uber's certain Pokemon are on teams just to kill Pdon in Ou nothing exists like that for Lando-T.
Finally I can still succeed without Lando-T on my team in Uber's if you don't have Pdon you are going no where.
At the end of the day ou does not revolve entirely around Lando-T.

It's time for a really cringey metaphor boys.
Lando-T may be the king of ou but all it takes is one person shotgun him in the head to kill him. Primal groudon is the god of Uber's, and you're going to need a lot more than bullets to take down a God.
 
Lando-T S-S+ Neutral(leaning more to no)

Lando-T is no doubt the the best pokemon in the OU, and can run multiple sets consistantly, but what differentiates Pdon and and Lando-T is that Lando T still has counters. P-Don has no true counters in the Ubers. There is no way you can directly counter P-don. Due to its monstrous physical bulk, Ground types still struggle against it. Lando-T has a bulk that is just above average. Because of this, Lando-T can still be easily worn down. Common weaknesses like water and ice really hinder it from becoming S+. The recent introduction of rain being a viable weather style in the OU due to Pelliper's new ability has made rain even more common, and any choice specs hydro pump from either kingdra or Omastar will kill Lando-T. Hidden Power ice is still as common as ever, even though ground and Flying is a fantastic defensive AND offensive type, it gains 4x ice weakness. Many faster pokemon still beat up Lando-T.This we all know, yet these common facts still hinder it. I am not saying it should move down, it's just that it shouldn't move up either.

I also agree with Mr. Goxel to a certain extent, it's not like without Lando-T, your team will lose or it's bad. There are many viable teams without it that still perform well in the metagame. However, as for the Primal Groudon statement, it is simply untrue. A team can still win even if Primal Groudon is not in the team.

My last question that I still ask myself though, even though Lando-T can run more sets than Magearna and perform slightly different roles, what separates Lando-T with Magearna of deserving a rank higher than it? It still hasn't been addressed in detail and I am still not convinced that the difference in viability is high enough to separate the 2 together. With my experience of using both of these pokemon, I still can't decide which is better. If I see a post that addresses in detail what separates the 2 together and is a convincing post, I shall be convinced that it should move up, and this is why I am still Neutral.
 
Lando-T really doesn't belong in S+ lol. S+ is reserved for who are utterly nuts overpowered beyond belief stuff and/or singlehandedly dictates the viability of Pokemon, and your team is instantly bad for not using that Pokemon (see PDon in Ubers). Mega Salamence was the only Pokemon I know of that was actually listed as S+ at one point and Lando-T is nowhere near that thing's level. If a Pokemon is actually S+ worthy in OU it's generally on it's way to a Quickban lol. You can more than build a successful team without Lando-T (see stall), and in fact a number of my more recent teams have not had a Lando-T, most of which have actually done decently well, and there are no Pokemon which it singlehandedly makes bad bar stuff it straight up outclasses. Zard X was on it's way down anyways with the plethora of scarfers this gen thanks to Volcarona, for example. Lando-T is the best mon in the meta but it's not THAT good lol. If you disagree with Lando-T and Magearna being in the same rank that much, nom Magearna down, not Lando-T up.

Strongly Disagree with Lando-T S -> S+, keep S rank
 
If you disagree with Lando-T and Magearna being in the same rank
Just to clear things up, I don't disagree with them both being the same rank. I particularly love Magearna but I am not denying that Lando-T is the best pokemon in OU.

Your post above has convinced me to stop Lando-T for moving up, thank goodness. I have so many internal debates with myself about that.
Lando-T S-S+ Disagree
 

bludz

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Pretty sure the entire ranking team has been adamantly against creating an S+ rank for a long time now. Don't expect us to start entertaining the idea suddenly. If something is that much better than everything else, it will sit in S rank alone. See: Landorus-T before Magearna's recent rise.
 
S+ exists solely on pre-official tiers for the mons so obviously broken they will be quickbanned the instant the actual tier gets going. EX Mega Salamence on pre-ORAS sixth gen.
 
Controversial question/suggestion, but with all this talk of an S+ ranking and whatnot (something that, as I posted previously, I disagree with), would an S- ranking be out of the question?

I ask this not because of how good Lando is compared to the likes of Magearna and Zygarde (I still think the latter is as worthy of being that high up as the former), but because of how effective Magearna and Zygarde are compared to the likes of the other threats in A+. With how they're clearly ahead of the A+ mons but clearly behind Lando, wouldn't it make sense to create a subrank between A+ and S to convey this?

A lot of my experience this gen and last has been playing Ubers. Giving Lando the exclusive S+ rank would convey that he is very much the OU equivalent of Ubers' Primal Groudon, who exceeds 70% usage both on low and high ladder, fulfills upwards of five or six different roles including making the undisputed King of Ubers until OR/AS, Kyogre, a completely unviable mon by its sheer existence alone, and is arguably the best at over half those roles. Anyone who is even remotely involved in the OU metagame this generation knows that, though centralizing and versatile, Landorus-T isn't even remotely on that behemoth's level. Yet as Gen 6 reached its later stages Ubers had an S and an S- rank, with the former composed of the undisputed second-best threat in the tier Xerneas and the latter composed of Darkrai, Mega Mence, Normal Arceus, and at one point Ho-oh - all of which were clearly inferior to Xerneas but better than the likes of Mewtwo, Mega Gengar, etc. - on top of the S+ throne.

Now, I apologize again for bringing up a completely different and currently-outdated tier that is notorious for having some of the most overcentralizing threats across all competitive formats. But I still feel that, though creating an S+ division for Landorus would be a bit much, making an S- division for Magearna, Zygarde, and whatever else may rise from there would be reasonable.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
Controversial question/suggestion, but with all this talk of an S+ ranking and whatnot (something that, as I posted previously, I disagree with), would an S- ranking be out of the question?

I ask this not because of how good Lando is compared to the likes of Magearna and Zygarde (I still think the latter is as worthy of being that high up as the former), but because of how effective Magearna and Zygarde are compared to the likes of the other threats in A+. With how they're clearly ahead of the A+ mons but clearly behind Lando, wouldn't it make sense to create a subrank between A+ and S to convey this?

A lot of my experience this gen and last has been playing Ubers. Giving Lando the exclusive S+ rank would convey that he is very much the OU equivalent of Ubers' Primal Groudon, who exceeds 70% usage both on low and high ladder, fulfills upwards of five or six different roles including making the undisputed King of Ubers until OR/AS, Kyogre, a completely unviable mon by its sheer existence alone, and is arguably the best at over half those roles. Anyone who is even remotely involved in the OU metagame this generation knows that, though centralizing and versatile, Landorus-T isn't even remotely on that behemoth's level. Yet as Gen 6 reached its later stages Ubers had an S and an S- rank, with the former composed of the undisputed second-best threat in the tier Xerneas and the latter composed of Darkrai, Mega Mence, Normal Arceus, and at one point Ho-oh - all of which were clearly inferior to Xerneas but better than the likes of Mewtwo, Mega Gengar, etc. - on top of the S+ throne.

Now, I apologize again for bringing up a completely different and currently-outdated tier that is notorious for having some of the most overcentralizing threats across all competitive formats. But I still feel that, though creating an S+ division for Landorus would be a bit much, making an S- division for Magearna, Zygarde, and whatever else may rise from there would be reasonable.

What are your thoughts on this?
I'm not part of the ranking team, but I'm pretty sure that they've been strongly resisting any modifications to the S rank, so S- seems pretty unlikely.
So that this isn't a crap post, I have a question: What makes Primarina worthy of C+ rank? She's slow and frail, and doesn't hit ridiculously hard. If I wanted a water and fairy type, I'd use azu, and if I wanted a strong special fairy type, i'd probably use Gardevoir, tapu lele or fini.
 
Just to clear things up, I don't disagree with them both being the same rank. I particularly love Magearna but I am not denying that Lando-T is the best pokemon in OU.

Your post above has convinced me to stop Lando-T for moving up, thank goodness. I have so many internal debates with myself about that.
Lando-T S-S+ Disagree
Oh I wasn't talking to you in particular when I said that, I meant more in a general sense haha. For some that might be the logic behind support for it :P. I probably should have worded it differently.

So this isn't a one liner, while S- would make more sense than S+ to me, I'm not sure if that would be as necessary. There's differences in the viability of mons in other ranks (for example, Zygarde is better than a few of the A+ rank mons - no I'm not saying it should go to S, I think it belongs in A+ for reasons others have said), and I don't see why S rank should be different - not all the mons in a certain rank need to be the exact same level of viability. I wouldn't be opposed to an S- rank, but I don't particularly see the need for it either.
 

Gary

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To add onto what bludz just said we will not be splitting S rank any time soon. Landorus-T is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier, but that does not automatically make it worthy of its own rank. The only time we would ever think about splitting S rank, is if there was a number of very centralizing forces in the metagame with clear divisions in viability between each other. Landorus-T, while good, is far from an entire rank ahead of Magearna. In order for Lando-T to get its own S rank, it would have to be not only extremely centralizing, but have such a profound effect on the metagame that the entire tier is molded around it, while also significantly effecting the viability of nearly every Pokemon in the tier. There would also have to be very limited counterplay to the Pokemon in general. As good as Lando-T is, I can safely say, that is far from the case. Despite its defensive counterplay being extremely shaky, Landorus-T is no Aegislash or Primal Groudon. I think a lot of people are also underestimating Magearna's influence on the metagame as well.

Personally, I think if we dropped maybe one or two specific Pokemon from A+ rank (not going to say which to prevent derailing) it would be perfect, and there wouldn't be as much of a disparity between some of the mons in A+. I think people have always had a hard time understanding just how hard it is for something to be S rank. Maybe some tiers are more lax, but I've always viewed S rank restricted to Pokemon that are not only a clear cut above the rest, but need seemingly extremely minimal support to succeed in most match ups, and find success in even some unsavory match ups. I think Landorus-T and Magearna both represent S rank in this way, because Landorus-T's ability to get up SR in virtually ever match up with its offensive sets is unparalleled, on top of its minimal defensive answers, while Magearna is virtually impossible to reliably prevent a late game sweep unless you're packing a Chansey or know exactly what coverage moves it's running. Adding onto the fact that it finds tons of opportunities to set up, stupidly difficult to revenge kill, and its defensive typing makes it a perfect fit for many builds.

A+ rank is meant for Pokemon that define the metagame, much like S rank. They are some of the best Pokemon in the tier. The only difference is, they just don't have the tools that puts them ahead above EVERY Pokemon in the tier. Personally I think Zygarde is a perfect example of an A+ Pokemon, and I don't think the issue is that it's a clear cut above A+, more that there might be a few Pokemon in A+ that are behind the rest, and would probably fit better in a lower rank.
 
Is it just me or are the arguments for why a mon should be S+ sound a lot like the reasons for why we ban mons...Lando is not S+. Besides 2 members of the ranking team clearly said that S+ wont become a thing...
Onto my 2 cents woth.
Zygarde is by no means S-rank material. 1KArrows may be the most spamable move ever, but 1 move dosen't make a mon go from BL (in ORAS) to OU S-rank tier-defining superstar. There's a difference between ''easy to use'' and ''viabile''. What makes Lando such a good mon is that all of it's sets will always put in a decent amount of work in every matchup. ALWAYS. And figuring out the set is somewhat tricky beacause Landos 2 main sets (Z-move + rocks and Defensive) fit on the vast majority of teams. Heck, I've even seen Defensive Z-move + rocks just to screw with people even more lol. Aside from Band, Zygardes other sets are easier to guess from preview and are a little more matchup reliant.
As for Magearna, I like to think of it as a better Volcarona (Volc should probably drop to A but thats best left for an other post). Volc was probably the best set-up seewper at one point: qd to boost up and Z-move to break through. Thats essentially what Mag does: SG and Z-nuke something. The difference is that Mag gets stronger with every kill so it dosen't need the opponents team to be as worn down as volc does. Mag resists rocks and is immune to t-spikes so hazard removal support is not that important, which is great in this meta cuz hazard stacking is amazeballz wheras removal is...not as great...Mag also has increadible coverage, Fighting/Ice/Electric is stupidly good like omg I can even lol (hits 65% (73/113) of the mons in the VR rankings list for SE damage). Mags different sets all also work differently. Like Zygarde, they are easier to spot from preview (BO with 0 SpDef presence other than Mag just screams AV), but they all put in more consistent work. Mags riddiculous effect on the meta right now is also undeniably bigger that what Zygarde does. Maybe the tier will adapt to Mag and it will drop back down eventually, but for now, this thing belong in S for sure
 
Also, M-Mawile to A-.
I haven't used Trick Room so I can't say much about its viability there. But Mawile just feels... lacking. In theory you can spam Play Rough all day, any day, but in practice it's pretty difficult to get Mawile in in the first place because it's so damn frail. You NEED pivoting to get the chomper in. And once you're in, then what? Grab a kill (if you're lucky), then get forced out by shit like Garchomp/Heatran/Volc. In addition, it's really slow; you can't very well hit Magearna with Fire Fang if it's gonna kill you with Flash Cannon. If you can't kill that Magnezone with Sucker Punch, then you die. And so on.
I'm not nomming it to C- or something, I know Mawile can shine (I actually have a rather successful team with Mawile on it). But in my opinion, A- seems fitting for it.
 
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Lando-T really doesn't belong in S+ lol. S+ is reserved for who are utterly nuts overpowered beyond belief stuff and/or singlehandedly dictates the viability of Pokemon, and your team is instantly bad for not using that Pokemon (see PDon in Ubers). Mega Salamence was the only Pokemon I know of that was actually listed as S+ at one point and Lando-T is nowhere near that thing's level. If a Pokemon is actually S+ worthy in OU it's generally on it's way to a Quickban lol. You can more than build a successful team without Lando-T (see stall), and in fact a number of my more recent teams have not had a Lando-T, most of which have actually done decently well, and there are no Pokemon which it singlehandedly makes bad bar stuff it straight up outclasses. Zard X was on it's way down anyways with the plethora of scarfers this gen thanks to Volcarona, for example. Lando-T is the best mon in the meta but it's not THAT good lol. If you disagree with Lando-T and Magearna being in the same rank that much, nom Magearna down, not Lando-T up.

Strongly Disagree with Lando-T S -> S+, keep S rank
I agree with Niadev on this one. Lando-T has hard checks and counters, and S+ pokemon should not. Bans are in place for S+ pokemon, as Niadev has already said, and Lando-T hasn't been banned, so it isn't S+. Also, S+ means absolutely broken mons that can sweep entire teams, not good mons that still can be checked and countered. What ABOUT MAGEARNA? Its Ice Beam can wreck Landorus, and so can both Greninjas and Heatran. Lando-T cannot be S+ AT ALL, Otherwise it would be highly overstating Lando-T's Abilities.
 
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