Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[ThatMangoLife]

Anything that gets trapped by dug isn't much of a stallbreaker. Mega Garde is outclassed, and even if it wasn't it'd be questionable in a meta rife with SpD steels.

PZ is mediocre. It only has one chance to sweep due to depending on a Z move, and its Speed tier means it's outsped by basically every scarfed mon. It doesn't have any way to break past its checks like, say, Volcarona does and fails at snowballing. Moreover, it provides little in the way of defensive utility with a shitty typing and mediocre defenses. It's an ok late game cleaner, but definitely not A- or even B+ material lol.

I don't think PZ is the level of Volcarona, but Volcarona is A+. I think Volcarona and Magearna are the only things that compare to Porygon-z in terms of special sweepers and they are A+ and S respectively. And I don't think PZ is while worse than them, several tiers below.

A lot of choice scarf users can outspeed, but they don't OHKO. Choice Scarf Keldeo does a max of 57.8% with hydro pump (and of course is OHKOd by Porygon-z). Tapu Lele does a max of 71.3% in psychic terrain, and Porygon-Z kills (has to be modest to guarantee, but modest is the best nature IMO for it). Choice scarf ground users do well, but they won't OHKO the ghost variant (which again will likely OHKO in return). And once your choice scarf user is down, it becomes very hard to stop. And of course you might have to sack a pokemon to bring in the choice scarf ground landorus/garchomp in safely as it packs ice beam.

Porygon-z really has one solid counter at that's Chansey, and even then takes over 30% damage. But that's typical of every special sweeper pretty much. Volcarona while better, generally has more checks than Porygon-z, bulky water, dragon, fire types, hindered by stealth rock, less powerful than Porygon-z after intial boost. And the fact it gets both special and physical boosts, help it live priority and scarfed hits better.

Porygon-Z is a different type of pokemon, it's more a late game sweeper, and applies pressure on the opponent to keep the one or two checks alive because of it. It's use often forces the opponent to sack at least one pokemon to deal with it which really isn't bad, it usually results in a net win. And normal is a decent typing it's not terrible as it gives porygon the option of a strong z-breakneck blitz and easier type to convert on. Yes something like steel would be better but that's why Magearna is S+, it's better than most typings for special sweepers, Volc's Bug/fire is worse defensive typing. Part of the reason why chansey is so good, as it's weak to just one typing. And while normal isn't great offensive typing, Porygon-Z doesn't exactly stay like that after conversion.

I don't think any of the pokemon in its' own tier for sure, or B tier can compare with the sweeping potential that this pokemon has. And what's more this is a niche, no other pokemon is able to sweep in this way. Even B+ seems to low, those pokemon either require greater support to function IMO and OHKO far fewer pokemon than Porygon-Z does after intial boost and more readily countered. B- is just too low, I think Porygon-Z in the past has been not utilized to it's fullest, most felt it was a one trick pony with Ghost z-type conversion+ 3 attacks. The electric z-type conversion is better and more suited to the metagame and has created the issue where now the opponent has to predict Ghost, electric, or the Z-break neck blitz instead of conversion. The ghost conversion while worse than the electric now IMO will continue to be used because lack of ghost special sweepers, and not much that resists ghost (only competition there is gengar). A pokemon with so many effective options is just far too strong for its' present tier.

 

[41gguy]

if garde has a terrain boosted psyshock why wouldn't zam have a terrain boosted psychic? I agree with gardevoir going to B-. you aren't always going to have lele right beside you with psychic terrain. that's why I think having zam would be almost always the better choice. if you don't have psychic terrain alakazam will still be doing ok. but in psychic terrain it will be doing great because it can't get hit with priority moves. but garde isn't that fast, so it can still get taken out, here are some calcs.

calcs

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 460-541 (166 - 195.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 246-289 (88.8 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 372-438 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir almost gets ko'd by these pokemon. they are all very common, and after 2 layers of spikes (or rocks and 1 spike) they ko gardevoir. The reason I think gardevoir should be around B/B- is because, garde get taken out by pokemon that are almost always seen once in a battle. Alakazam can usually do better than garde with and without psychic terrain(not trying to compare zam with garde, just that they both work well with lele), and its just too slow for it to sweep with psychic terrain.

I'm not saying that Alakazam doesn't get terrain boosted Psychic lol. Of course not. I meant to say, Alakazam doesn't have access to Psyshock/Psychic WHILE ALSO having Fairy-type Hyper voice, and that is very significant because fairy/psychic is good coverage. In Gardevoir's case, having both means that there really are a lot fewer safe switch ins. And before we go into that Tapu Lele can do the same, Hyper voice is 38% stronger than raw Tapu Lele's Moonblast, not factoring in choice specs or life orb on that latters part.

Also, let me state my argument further than before, because people keep comparing Tapu Lele and Mega Gardevoir. But why compare them, when we can say we have two Pokemon that are, yes, extremely similar, but synergize well with each other GIVEN THAT they are similar?

Certain sets actually have it that offense teams SPAM a certain type of move amongst similar pokemon (cough cough* Hydro Pump from Ash-Greninja) on Rain teams and such. The best part about Tapu Lele is that it has no guaranteed safe switch ins. Compound Mega-Gardevoir for the exact same purpose and you have just a hyper offense core which SPAMS Psychic and Fairy STAB, with hard hitting coverage moves.

In the context of a Lele/M-Garde core, I'm not at all saying that Mega-Gardevoir is better in any way than Tapu Lele. Imo Tapu Lele should be A+ or S rank. But given that M-Garde can capitalize and spam so well with Tapu Lele, and none of them really have hard switch ins (don't say Celesteela, because I think T-bolt is great on M-garde), it's a really viable strategy to go hyper offensive between the two. And really not many Pokemon that I can think of can take advantage of Psychic Terrain as good as it except maybe Mega-Medicham because its dual STAB. Alakazam is walled quite easily.

*Added Magearna-is-a-counter arguments*
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 130-153 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO

 

[Jeep101]

I feel like people are underselling mega gardevoir. Gardevoir's stab coverage can destroy many popular defensive pokemon at the moment like toxapex, tangrowth, clefable, and mew. In the right situation, it tears teams apart.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602506147

In this replay, gardevoir weakened av magearna, defeated heatran, defeated mega sableye, and basically defeated landorus. Although there was counters in heatran and magearna, gardevoir special bulk allows it to take some special attacks and continuously apply pressure the team which allowed for a keldeo sweep in the end.

In summary, Gardevoir is powerful wallbreaker that tears apart many bulky teams.

maga gard -> A-/A

 

[Divine Retribution]

Ok, people need to stop using arguments like "in the right situation, X can tear apart teams". That's completely irrelevant. In the right situation Kabutops can tear apart teams, and yet I don't see anyone using that as an argument to raise him (rightfully so). The fact that situations where Gardevoir shines are so situational and unreliable is justification to rank it lower, not higher. If you look at all the other mons in the various A subranks, they will have an impact in just about every single game. Gardevoir on the otherhand becomes deadweight in many matchups vs faster teams and even struggles versus most bulky offense builds. Even against stall, it struggles to set itself apart from Lele and is very vulnerable to being trapped by Dugtrio.

I get it, Gardevoir is a fan favorite and everyone's pokewaifu and everything, but some people are waaaaaay overselling this thing. It really struggles to justify the mega slot it occupies when other things can do what it does better and more reliably than it can without taking up that slot.

 

[Sun King]

Not that I inherently agree/disagree with pro/anti Garde, but I think dismissing it THIS early on is kind of ridiculous. We just got it, and I also think comparisons to Lele are somewhat poorly founded. Garde brings utility in Taunt, Wisp, and the ability to hit things behind a sub (which, albeit a tiny niche, is something nothing else really can do right now).

I think trying to rank it right now is premature, and same goes for the other freshly released Megas. I know Gary opened discussion up, but y'all have such strong opinions and we've hardly given the meta a moment to adapt and I think it's sort of ridiculous to be so dead set on a particular ranking.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Lele also has Taunt but fair enough, maybe we're being too hasty here.

 

[volx757]

I don't think PZ is the level of Volcarona, but Volcarona is A+. I think Volcarona and Magearna are the only things that compare to Porygon-z in terms of special sweepers and they are A+ and S respectively. And I don't think PZ is while worse than them, several tiers below.

A lot of choice scarf users can outspeed, but they don't OHKO. Choice Scarf Keldeo does a max of 57.8% with hydro pump (and of course is OHKOd by Porygon-z). Tapu Lele does a max of 71.3% in psychic terrain, and Porygon-Z kills (has to be modest to guarantee, but modest is the best nature IMO for it). Choice scarf ground users do well, but they won't OHKO the ghost variant (which again will likely OHKO in return). And once your choice scarf user is down, it becomes very hard to stop. And of course you might have to sack a pokemon to bring in the choice scarf ground landorus/garchomp in safely as it packs ice beam.

Porygon-z really has one solid counter at that's Chansey, and even then takes over 30% damage. But that's typical of every special sweeper pretty much. Volcarona while better, generally has more checks than Porygon-z, bulky water, dragon, fire types, hindered by stealth rock, less powerful than Porygon-z after intial boost. And the fact it gets both special and physical boosts, help it live priority and scarfed hits better.

Porygon-Z is a different type of pokemon, it's more a late game sweeper, and applies pressure on the opponent to keep the one or two checks alive because of it. It's use often forces the opponent to sack at least one pokemon to deal with it which really isn't bad, it usually results in a net win. And normal is a decent typing it's not terrible as it gives porygon the option of a strong z-breakneck blitz and easier type to convert on. Yes something like steel would be better but that's why Magearna is S+, it's better than most typings for special sweepers, Volc's Bug/fire is worse defensive typing. Part of the reason why chansey is so good, as it's weak to just one typing. And while normal isn't great offensive typing, Porygon-Z doesn't exactly stay like that after conversion.

I don't think any of the pokemon in its' own tier for sure, or B tier can compare with the sweeping potential that this pokemon has. And what's more this is a niche, no other pokemon is able to sweep in this way. Even B+ seems to low, those pokemon either require greater support to function IMO and OHKO far fewer pokemon than Porygon-Z does after intial boost and more readily countered. B- is just too low, I think Porygon-Z in the past has been not utilized to it's fullest, most felt it was a one trick pony with Ghost z-type conversion+ 3 attacks. The electric z-type conversion is better and more suited to the metagame and has created the issue where now the opponent has to predict Ghost, electric, or the Z-break neck blitz instead of conversion. The ghost conversion while worse than the electric now IMO will continue to be used because lack of ghost special sweepers, and not much that resists ghost (only competition there is gengar). A pokemon with so many effective options is just far too strong for its' present tier.

Porygon-z is too much of a one-trick pony. There are 3 things that are built into using porygon-z in SM: 1. the opponent knows your set right off the bat, 2. you only get one chance to sweep. If you get p/hazed or forced out, porygon is deadweight for the rest of the match, 3. porygon is deadweight in any stall matchup.
Maybe it's deserving of a rise, but definitely not into the A- ranks. Mons there are almost never useless in a match, and can perform against all or at least most playstyles in one way or another.

Porygon-z is also pretty easy to revenge kill (except maybe for balance teams), with mons such as mega-maw, bisharp, any scarfer, strong priority, assault vest users, any ttar set or megattar set. Since everyone knows what it's going to do when it first comes into battle, it's going to take a hit setting up putting into range of one of the above things, or get statused setting up, or your opp has a counter and they go straight into it. No one is gonna let it boost for free.

There's also the issue of z-move slot. In this meta, z-moves are an invaluable tool for breakers and sweepers to punch holes in mons they otherwise would be forced out by. For example, Magearna often relies on a z-move to get sweep momentum going. This is part of what makes it an S-rank threat. If you run z-move porygon-z, you can't run what is arguably the second best mon in the tier's best set, and that opportunity cost needs to be reflected in the viability rankings.

So yeah I'm not opposed to a rise, but it's not nearly consistent enough to rank up with the likes of Chansey, MMedi, Ttar, Clef, and the like.

 

[41gguy]

Ok, people need to stop using arguments like "in the right situation, X can tear apart teams". That's completely irrelevant. In the right situation Kabutops can tear apart teams, and yet I don't see anyone using that as an argument to raise him (rightfully so). The fact that situations where Gardevoir shines are so situational and unreliable is justification to rank it lower, not higher. If you look at all the other mons in the various A subranks, they will have an impact in just about every single game. Gardevoir on the otherhand becomes deadweight in many matchups vs faster teams and even struggles versus most bulky offense builds. Even against stall, it struggles to set itself apart from Lele and is very vulnerable to being trapped by Dugtrio.

I get it, Gardevoir is a fan favorite and everyone's pokewaifu and everything, but some people are waaaaaay overselling this thing. It really struggles to justify the mega slot it occupies when other things can do what it does better and more reliably than it can without taking up that slot.

You've got a good argument, but the amount of situation between garde and kabutops is quite different. Kabutops can't do jack without rain up, usually needs a swords dance, and most likely will have a one time Z move. and even still, it's hard pressed by Toxapex, Ferrothorn, etc. Gardevoir IS a useable pokemon without psychic terrain because once again, it's got Hyper Voice. Bulky Offense dies by CM sets, and general super effective coverage. Gardevoir last gen was considered a wallbreaker after all. And unlike rain, its setter is not uncommon at all, or even difficult to see doing work on the battlefield, thus bringing its good boons. Hell, your opponent probably has a Tapu Lele.

 

[newkidmarc]

Hello All!

I'd like to propose a rise in viability of Porygon-Z. It lies in the B- rank which is far too low, and is a far scarier pokemon than the fellow pokemon in that tier, Alolan Muk, Togekiss, Salamence etc.

The Z-conversion with Adaptability set is extremely good, Ghost and Electric being the best choices. The original normal type helps it out with few weaknesses, hence being able to live most non-boosted hits that aren't fighting. Especially the electric Z-type conversion with thunderbolt and ice beam, which if pulled off is capable of one-shotting (as well as outspeeding) a lot of the OU metagame (particularly doing well against the pokemon in the S, A+ and A tiers). There just aren't many things which can deal with it once set up, often people resorting to choice scarf ground users (however they have to lock into earthquake potentially giving the chance to set up with another sweeper), Tyranitar or Chansey. Even ferrothorn while it can take hits, still takes around 35-40%, and can't do much back. And most common variants of tyranitar can be 2 hit KO'd whether running modest or timid, hence not really being a switch in. Alolan-Marowak is a great switch in unless it has shadow ball (or is ghost Z-conversion).

It's also hard to predict, ghost Z-type conversion being very good and not as weak to choice scarf ground pokemon, and immune to fake out and extremespeed but on the other hand weak to sucker punch (which electric doesn't struggle with as much). Think this set is less preferred these days than the electric due to the rise in tyranitar and strong sucker punch users like Mega Mawile.

Porygon-Z also run can run something like hyper beam or tri-attack last move to get off a powerful breakneckblitz one of the most powerful Z-moves in the game which again kills off most pokemon, thus giving the user a choice whether to get off a powerful attack or convert. Not much covers both options. The extra boost in defense and special defense can be very valuable too allowing it to live an extra hit/priority. Not too mention it has access to recover if you want to increase its' longevity. Even if the Z-move is wasted/already used, Porygon-Z has base 135 special attack, with an excellent moveset and coverage and usable speed. It's just a hard pokemon to deal with, and not easily predicted. B- is far too low for a pokemon which is so easily able to set up and sweep, and I'd propose a drastic rise.

Porygon-Z B->A-

You just described the set. It's been around since the start of SM, so we know what it does. It's because we know what it does that it's ranked the way it is. The other mons you mentioned have also been doing the same thing that they've been doing ever since the start of SM. The only change in recent meta trends that you brought up is Ttar's rise, which clearly hurts P-Z. What can it do now that it couldn't do before? Unless you can answer that question convincingly, there's no need for a rise right now. However, you can argue that maybe it shouldn't have been B- to begin with, which I think is fair, but "situational, go big or go home set-up sweeper" is an archetype that we've seen a good number of times in this gen and past ones, and it has never been deserving of a ranking higher than B+.

 

[ThatMangoLife]

You just described the set. It's been around since the start of SM, so we know what it does. It's because we know what it does that it's ranked the way it is. The other mons you mentioned have also been doing the same thing that they've been doing ever since the start of SM. The only change in recent meta trends that you brought up is Ttar's rise, which clearly hurts P-Z. What can it do now that it couldn't do before? Unless you can answer that question convincingly, there's no need for a rise right now. However, you can argue that maybe it shouldn't have been B- to begin with, which I think is fair, but "situational, go big or go home set-up sweeper" is an archetype that we've seen a good number of times in this gen and past ones, and it has never been deserving of a ranking higher than B+.

You're right it hasn't got better due to meta changes, I think it's just always been underrated. I think part of the reason it is ranked so low as people don't realise how good it is, and because Ghost Z-conversion is what people have been using. It's inferior to the Electric Z-Conversion set which has been rising in popularity. While nothing has change, the advent for T-Tar and Mawile and rise of bisharp has discouraged the ghost set, but in turn has promoted a superior electric set. The meta is also favouring more set up and sweep strategies. Think people are still dismissing it due to sucker punch when the electric set isn't even weak to that. And there really isn't much priority that does much damage to it at +1 defense while nearly all of these priority users (if not all) get OHKO'd in return.

If you look at the description of porygon-z in OU on smogon.com, it gives a set of:
timid, 252 spA, 252 speed with Normalium Z
Shadow Ball
Discharge
Recover
Conversion

Now this set is very flawed IMO and not its best set. No ice beam which is critical for porygon-z. Thunderbolt, ice beam is the only attacking moves some magearna run, it's such good coverage. Modest hits harder than timid and ensures crucial KOs, plus with modest you outspeed most of the pokemon you need to at +1 (and running timid doesn't let you outspeed the ones you couldn't with modest generally). You usually won't have opportunity to recover. And discharge over thunderbolt, thunderbolt's extra power is better. As I've said I think the reason why people aren't realising how good this pokemon is, is they don't use it enough or play around with the sets. Mew had a similar problem before it rose.

A better set these days is:
Modest, 252 spA, 252 speed with Normalium Z
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Conversion
Hyper Beam/Tri Attack/Substitute (I would prefer Tri attack or hyper beam, you could run shadow ball, but I personally wouldn't)

That set is much harder to combat, it is far better and less situational than the ghost one. It gives you far more options, you don't even need to convert to be useful. Which was it's main problem, people felt it was totally reliant on conversion. Porygon Z has a 81.3% chance to OHKO standard set mega Mawille with Z-move BreakNeckBlitz and 100% after SR. That's pretty crazy. You have the chance to forgo the conversion in order to take out a crucial pokemon. On the other hand, if you sub against a defensive pokemon, you can get boosted up behind a sub.

I think it's down to the fact it just isn't used enough which is why people underrate it and don't realise it's potential. I'm sure it will gain in popularity soon, as I've said people are already switching to the electric set and realising it's worth. If lots of these things were running around in OU, people would realise it's impact, it applies huge offensive pressure to the opposing team.

I agree B+ might be ok for it, but it's better than the rest in that tier IMO, and better than a few in A- such as Latios, Gengar, Mega Scizor etc which probably deserve a drop. And things like Chansey and Clefable probably deserve rises, find it difficult to argue those pokemon aren't as good as the ones in A rank. But B- is just too low.

 

[Yasuo]

You're right it hasn't got better due to meta changes, I think it's just always been underrated. I think part of the reason it is ranked so low as people don't realise how good it is, and because Ghost Z-conversion is what people have been using. It's inferior to the Electric Z-Conversion set which has been rising in popularity. While nothing has change, the advent for T-Tar and Mawile and rise of bisharp has discouraged the ghost set, but in turn has promoted a superior electric set. The meta is also favouring more set up and sweep strategies. Think people are still dismissing it due to sucker punch when the electric set isn't even weak to that. And there really isn't much priority that does much damage to it at +1 defense while nearly all of these priority users (if not all) get OHKO'd in return.

If you look at the description of porygon-z in OU on smogon.com, it gives a set of:
timid, 252 spA, 252 speed with Normalium Z
Shadow Ball
Discharge
Recover
Conversion

Now this set is very flawed IMO and not its best set. No ice beam which is critical for porygon-z. Thunderbolt, ice beam is the only attacking moves some magearna run, it's such good coverage. Modest hits harder than timid and ensures crucial KOs, plus with modest you outspeed most of the pokemon you need to at +1 (and running timid doesn't let you outspeed the ones you couldn't with modest generally). You usually won't have opportunity to recover. And discharge over thunderbolt, thunderbolt's extra power is better. As I've said I think the reason why people aren't realising how good this pokemon is, is they don't use it enough or play around with the sets. Mew had a similar problem before it rose.

A better set these days is:
Modest, 252 spA, 252 speed with Normalium Z
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Conversion
Hyper Beam/Tri Attack/Substitute (I would prefer Tri attack or hyper beam, you could run shadow ball, but I personally wouldn't)

That set is much harder to combat, it is far better and less situational than the ghost one. It gives you far more options, you don't even need to convert to be useful. Which was it's main problem, people felt it was totally reliant on conversion. Porygon Z has a 81.3% chance to OHKO standard set mega Mawille with Z-move BreakNeckBlitz and 100% after SR. That's pretty crazy. You have the chance to forgo the conversion in order to take out a crucial pokemon. On the other hand, if you sub against a defensive pokemon, you can get boosted up behind a sub.

I think it's down to the fact it just isn't used enough which is why people underrate it and don't realise it's potential. I'm sure it will gain in popularity soon, as I've said people are already switching to the electric set and realising it's worth. If lots of these things were running around in OU, people would realise it's impact, it's applies huge offensive pressure to the opposing team.

I agree B+ might be ok for it, but it's better than the rest in that tier IMO, and better than a few in A- such as Latios, Gengar, Mega Scizor etc which probably deserve a drop. And things like Chansey and Clefable probably deserve rises, find it difficult to argue those pokemon aren't as good as the ones in A rank. But B- is just too low.

Don't wanna be harsh but your posts show a general lack of experience in the OU metagame. Modest Nature isn't good at all for PZ. It's main drawback is it's lackluster speed, so it will have to take a hit before it has the chance to setup. Running Modest Nature slows you even more down. The Breckness Blitz Mawile comparison is garbage. Why would you use PZ with Breckness Blitz, which takes away your Z-Move setup possibility? Porygon-Z without Z-Conversion is useless. There's a reason why it wasn't at the OU radar for the last 2 generations and Z-Conversion is the sole reason of the ranking of Porygon-Z.

You wanted to get up PZ to A- in your first post, which is absolutely hilarious. There's no reason to rise a pokemon a complete rank without giving ANY calcs or replays to show what it does. Porygon-Z can't get easy setups because it is too slow to get the setup before it is getting attacked. And there are scarfers which outspeed it when it got the setup done.

No more PZ posts please. It isn't the third best special sweeper and it isn't better than OU staples in the A- ranks. There are much more things that can stop PZ as you might think.
You oversell this pokemon

 

[ClockworkLad]

Porygon Z can do things but tbh so can every setup mon. Porygon-Z can only run Z-Conversion and remain viable, and running like specs or scarf or whatever tf it used to run makes it outclassed in every way by better specs and scarf users. scarf lele, scarf chomp, scarf keld, scarf most offensive threats hit it before it sets up for a ton and then kills a turn later because "hey I'm boosted might as well attack" since that's low ladder mentality and by mid-high ladder everyone has already accepted that they can use something better.

Keep PZ out of A- plz thx.

 

[ThatMangoLife]

Don't wanna be harsh but your posts show a general lack of experience in the OU metagame. Modest Nature isn't good at all for PZ. It's main drawback is it's lackluster speed, so it will have to take a hit before it has the chance to setup. Running Modest Nature slows you even more down. The Breckness Blitz Mawile comparison is garbage. Why would you use PZ with Breckness Blitz, which takes away your Z-Move setup possibility? Porygon-Z without Z-Conversion is useless. There's a reason why it wasn't at the OU radar for the last 2 generations and Z-Conversion is the sole reason of the ranking of Porygon-Z.

You wanted to get up PZ to A- in your first post, which is absolutely hilarious. There's no reason to rise a pokemon a complete rank without giving ANY calcs or replays to show what it does. Porygon-Z can't get easy setups because it is too slow to get the setup before it is getting attacked. And there are scarfers which outspeed it when it got the setup done.

No more PZ posts please. It isn't the third best special sweeper and it isn't better than OU staples in the A- ranks. There are much more things that can stop PZ as you might think.
You oversell this pokemon

Think this is rather rude tbh. I know it's a rather out there, it's just how I feel and I believe I have a decent experience of OU and argued politely,I've provided plenty of calcs, mainly for things that deal with porygon-z as few pokemon live it once boosted anyway. No one has provided any calcs to counter argument. As I said, Chansey, bulky Excadrill counters. Ttar, Mega Venusaur, choice scarf ground pokemon are good checks. Assault Vest Tangrowth works decently but often can't kill it in one hit, while it dies itself in two. And of course ferrothorn but as I mentioned, it does little in return to an electric type given most run gyro ball. Forcing a scarfer into a ground move is hardly ideal either, as it loses momentum.The amount that effectively checks and counters it really isn't that much, which is why it's a little out of place in B- when compared to other pokemon. The amount that pressures say Alolan Muk in the same tier is far more.

That set on smogon is outdated, I'm sure anyone with experience using this pokemon will tell you that. It kind of goes to show that this pokemon hasn't been exactly explored to it's fullest. You say Modest isn't good, but why timid, what does that help it outspeed? A lot of pokemon run adamant e.g Zygarde, Medicham, modest if it's the best option and for porygon-Z it is. At modest nature it hits 418 which outspeeds up to Mega Lopunny at 405. Most scarfers that naturally outspeed it will outspeed it regardless of being timid. I do not think it's worth running timid for mega Alakazam only. If you can give an explanation to why timid is needed, I'd be happy to hear it, I like debating about pokemon :).

The electric and ice coverage is a dominating trend in the OU metagame. I mentioned ice beam, thunderbolt magearna as something evident to that, some don't even bother running stab. This is the way to go for porygon-z, and really all variants of it should have these two moves. There are very few pokemon that have both ice and electric coverage, and even fewer at around 130 Special attack. Z-breakneck blitz comes in handy a lot as it applies offensive pressure, trading a integral pokemon for your own can be the tactical play, making you not reliant on setting up simply. I chose mega mawile as it was just a bulky resisted pokemon to compare to. In matches where porygon-z conversion isn't too desirable, you have that option. It's a bit like explosion without dying really in this sense. It also makes it so porygon-z is very rarely dead weight.

Tangrowth was RU in the past before rising to one of the best pokemon in OU. No reason why PZ can't rise from BL to OU either. I'm sure it will rise up anyway with time, but I guess we'll see. Maybe I'm a bit ambitious, I do think it's A- worthy eventually, but perhaps I should have asked for B+ first. It was more that there are pokemon in A- like gengar, mega-scizor, latios, magnezone which aren't OU staples and deserve a drop. I don't think it's on par with clefable, chansey etc.

 

[Finchinator]

With all due respect to the prospect of moving up Porygon-Z, I think I am going to have to disagree with this for the time being. While Porygon-Z surely is a dynamic Pokemon, having the potential to boost all stats by one stage and change its typing to abuse this, I feel that it is quite hard to use and even when used, it has sporadic effectiveness.

The most common set and likely the best one is the Ghost set and, in the current metagame, Ghost types are not nearly as spammable and convenient as they happened to be a couple months back. For example, Gengar used to be one of the top Pokemon in the tier and now probably does not reside within my personal top 20 or so Pokemon in the tier. With there being an increase in the usage of Pokemon like Tyranitar and there being a general rise in counterplay to not only Gengar, but also Porygon-Z, it simply has less appeal and I do not see much of a reason to move it up (hell, I could see myself arguing to drop it to C+, if anything, simply because it sees no usage in serious settings and never has been a consistent option).

Additionally, Porygon-Z never has been the best option for a vast majority of teams to begin with, but with the metagame being a bit restricted and teambuilding requiring you to cover as much as it is, it is clear that wasting a team slot and Z move on a Pokemon that provides practically nothing defensively and takes a turn to be useful in just about any capacity to begin with is a far cry from being ideal. Moreover, Porygon-Z happens to not be a threat in many match-ups due to the aforementioned nature of it and the fact that the Scarf metagame is so fast while the lack of Defensive presence of Porygon-Z does not really help it even if it gets +1 in both defense stats, leaving it a pretty poor win condition against almost all offensive teams.

Ultimately, I cannot see any particular reason to rise Porygon-Z and I think it is a very mediocre option in the current metagame (I'll go as far as saying it has never struck me as particularly good throughout the entirety of the generation, but that is not what matters at this point). We should definitely not move it up to A- rank.

 

[p2]

PorygonZ isn't really good in the meta anyway and all this discussion on Modest/Timid is silly regardless because PZ isn't going to be rising, let alone rising to A-.

It's plagued with a lot of issues in the tier that just simply make it a mediocre pick in the meta. The best playstyles in the meta atm are Zardy+Dug teams and Stall, Porygon-Z isn't doing anything to these teams because they have the tools to
easily offensively deal it while Stall just throws Chansey at it and calls it a day. Regardless of these archetypes being the best in the tier, it's just so easy for teams to passively and offensively pressure PZ into not doing anything in matchups. (Regardless of ZardY teams, common offense has plenty of ways to offensively pressure PZ too and it legitimately never sweeps anymore).

It's far too easy to revenge kill before and after Z-Conversion and even then, the meta is completely filled with scarfers that outspeed it and powerful priority, and it realistically just never is in a position where it can consistently put in work. Sure it sweeps some teams from time to time, but so can Azu and ZardX which is equally ranked with PZ atm. It's just horribly inconsistent and it's easy to gas up its good properties on paper, but its just extremely unreliable and it's never going to climb higher in the rankings because of this. Also should mention that the increased usage of mons that straight up shut down PZ running around like Ttar/Gastro/Chans is just horrid for it.

Tangrowth was RU in the past before rising to one of the best pokemon in OU. No reason why PZ can't rise from BL to OU either. I'm sure it will rise up anyway with time, but I guess we'll see. Maybe I'm a bit ambitious, I do think it's A- worthy eventually, but perhaps I should have asked for B+ first. It was more that there are pokemon in A- like gengar, mega-scizor, latios, magnezone which aren't OU staples and deserve a drop. I don't think it's on par with clefable, chansey etc.

Tangrowth had legitimate reason to rise to OU last gen and this gen because the meta constantly developed in its favour, nothing has been improving for PZ at all this gen as it's simply just overshadowed by various other breakers/sweepers in the tier. Also saying that Latios is not a staple in OU atm is ridiculous.

 

[Gary]

FUCK

Yeah Porygon-Z has been blacklisted now. P2 and Finch summed up why it's just not that great of a Pokemon. I mean, if you actually think PZ is better than Latios in the current meta like..... I don't even know what to say. Normally I don't blacklist things this earlier on but I just have a hunch it wont end here if I don't lol.

Carry on.

 

[Reviloja753]

Mega Sceptile C- ---> UR

Now, majority of the time, my tiering thoughts are based on what has risen last time and what effect it has on the viability of other things like them. This is one of those cases. Mega Sceptile hasn't ever been great in OU this generation, but the rise of the two Kanto megas seals it for me. ZardY is a much better full-on fast special attacker with an arguably better ability and better coverage. Meanwhile, MegaVenu is much bulkier and has a much better defensive typing, and can also be used as utility and has more options than Mega Sceptile. Not to mention the return of Mega Lopunny (who almost always runs Ice Punch now) and Mega Gardevoir (Hyper Voice anyone?), which both crush Mega Sceptile even further. All in all, Mega Sceptile struggles to find a spot on teams worth their salt due to its frailty and limited use compared to its competition.

 

[Cheryl.]

Mega Sceptile C- ---> UR

Now, majority of the time, my tiering thoughts are based on what has risen last time and what effect it has on the viability of other things like them. This is one of those cases. Mega Sceptile hasn't ever been great in OU this generation, but the rise of the two Kanto megas seals it for me. ZardY is a much better full-on fast special attacker with an arguably better ability and better coverage. Meanwhile, MegaVenu is much bulkier and has a much better defensive typing, and can also be used as utility and has more options than Mega Sceptile. Not to mention the return of Mega Lopunny (who almost always runs Ice Punch now) and Mega Gardevoir (Hyper Voice anyone?), which both crush Mega Sceptile even further. All in all, Mega Sceptile struggles to find a spot on teams worth their salt due to its frailty and limited use compared to its competition.

Okay, while I don't really disagree with this nomination because Mega Sceptile is pretty bad right now, I wouldn't say your reasoning is the best, at all. While yes, other Megas do give Mega Sceptile competition for the slot, especially Mega Lopunny who also has a very high Speed stat to beat offense with, I don't really get how Mega Sceptile doesn't just outspeed and beat Mega Lop 1v1 so it doesn't Ice Punch you. And no smart player is leaving Mega Sceptile in on a Mega Gardevoir unless it's weakened enough to where Leaf Storm kills (which is at like 60%). Both of these Megas aren't really beating Mega Sceptile reliably 1v1 at all, so I have no idea why you included this in the nom. You also forgot to point out the rise in specially defensive Steel-types (AV Magearna, Celesteela) in your nom, while this is probably one of the big reasons why Mega Sceptile is not that great, because it is never breaking through them without a ton of support. You could even include the small rise in usage of Chansey balances as a reason, because Mega Sceptile is literally doing nothing to those teams. Also comparing a purely offensive Mega like Sceptile to a bulkier one like Venusaur, which is meant for entirely different teams than Sceptile, is just plain silly. Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with your nom entirely, because other Megas such as Zard-Y, Pinsir, and Lopunny do give Mega Sceptile massive competition for the Mega slot, and checks to it like AV Tang, defensive Steels, and even Chansey are pretty much everywhere, but I do think your reasoning does need a lot of work if you want to give your full point across.

 

[Reviloja753]

Okay, while I don't really disagree with this nomination because Mega Sceptile is pretty bad right now, I wouldn't say your reasoning is the best, at all. While yes, other Megas do give Mega Sceptile competition for the slot, especially Mega Lopunny who also has a very high Speed stat to beat offense with, I don't really get how Mega Sceptile doesn't just outspeed and beat Mega Lop 1v1 so it doesn't Ice Punch you. And no smart player is leaving Mega Sceptile in on a Mega Gardevoir unless it's weakened enough to where Leaf Storm kills (which is at like 60%). Both of these Megas aren't really beating Mega Sceptile reliably 1v1 at all, so I have no idea why you included this in the nom. You also forgot to point out the rise in specially defensive Steel-types (AV Magearna, Celesteela) in your nom, while this is probably one of the big reasons why Mega Sceptile is not that great, because it is never breaking through them without a ton of support. You could even include the small rise in usage of Chansey balances as a reason, because Mega Sceptile is literally doing nothing to those teams. Also comparing a purely offensive Mega like Sceptile to a bulkier one like Venusaur, which is meant for entirely different teams than Sceptile, is just plain silly. Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with your nom entirely, because other Megas such as Zard-Y, Pinsir, and Lopunny do give Mega Sceptile massive competition for the Mega slot, and checks to it like AV Tang, defensive Steels, and even Chansey are pretty much everywhere, but I do think your reasoning does need a lot of work if you want to give your full point across.

Thanks for the feedback! I usually have a hard time articulating my opinions clearly, so I appreciate it. In my mind, my thoughts generally were that megas were rising and outclassing it. Also, the defensive aspect slipped my mind, so thanks again!

 

[Astoria]

B- -> B / (B+)

I want to say something about Charizard-X which is in my opinion heavily underrated. I think it easily deserves a spot in B and isn't even far from being B+. Zard-X is not the monster it was in gen6 as most teams run many checks and counters to it. Those being mainly Lando-T, scarfers like Keldeo, Latios, Garchomp or Greninja and depending on the set Heatran, Tapu Fini and Toxapex. Also as Zard-X has a x4 stealth rock weakness and gets worn down by Flare Blitz it's easy to revenge kill it with priority from mons like Ash-Gren, Mega-Medicham, Zygarde, etc.
All that being said i still think Zard-X is far from being bad. As it is a setup sweeper it can also 2HKO the whole meta besides Lando-T and Toxapex and Mons that are not used like Hippo and Rotom anyways. However literally no1 would switch a Lando-T in a random Zard. Zard-X's fearsomeness comes from nobody expecting it being a Zard-X. Like with a small prediction Zard-X can act as a lure for himself, being able to OHKO common Zard-Y switch-ins. For example using Dragon Claw predicting the opponent's Scarfchomp which is a common switch to Zard-Y. Yes sure sometimes it's not hard to notice the Zard form from the team structure. However I have been using Tpunch Zard-X on HO with a Dugtrio for Heatran and Toxapex. So when seeing a Charizard paired with a Dugtrio most players will think it is Zard-Y.

Also Landorus and Toxapex are not even safe counters to Zard-X. Defensive Lando can't touch Charizard if it doesnt mega evolve so it can just freely set up on it while any Offensive Set gets 2HKOd by Flare Blitz at -1. Also with DDing up on the Toxapex switch +1 EQ or TPunch (with Rocks) does enough to kill it with a 2nd one after Pex used Haze. Being able to wall and to set up on so many common mons makes Zard-X also incredibly dangerous. Those being Choice-Locked Lele, Lando-T and Bulu or mons like Defensive Lando-T, Tangrowth without Rock Slide, Defensive Celesteela, Mew, Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Tapu Koko, M-Manectric, Heatran (b4 mega), Thundurus, M-Sableye, Jirachi, Tapu Fini, M-Scizor and even Zard-Y.

Being able to run Roost it can check all those aformentioned mons on bulky offense/balance teams. Also needing Defog support isn't that bad right now due to relative high usage of Defog users such as Mew. However i think Zard is way scarier on HO teams. It also does pretty well against stall (not breaking it tho) as it can just DD on Sableye and 2HKO or OHKO (with SR cuz Duggy and Skarm) anything that is usually run on stall but Quagsire.

Here are some replays which all show how well Zard-X can do with some team support on HO. I did all of them but 1 today in a very short time period with Zard putting in much work:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602666995
here i can just easily set up with DD as Lando can not touch me and sweep the whole team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598919570
this replay is not very good tbh as my opponent just sacks his counters in Lando and Heatran very early as he probably doesnt expect me to be Zard-X

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602680172
here again my opponent doesnt realise that I am Zard-X and let's me just set up to +2 which is pretty much gg

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602675151
here Zard kills like 3 Mons (btw that one misplay when i went Zard into Lando was cause i misclicked, i jut wanted to go directly Duggy and click Memento)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602685850
here again i just setup on Lando-T, i eventually get killed by fake out but am able to win due to my opponent sacking half of his team

By far I do not belive that Zard-X is one of the best mons rn but i still think that B- might be a little bit too low for it. Mainly due to no1 seeing it coming. Also sorry for saying Zard so often^^

Edit: Defensive Lando-T is pressured by so many mons rn and can be worn down early game as it usually wants to set up SR when seeing a Zard

 

[Riddikulusness]

Hey! Im just gonna give my thoughts on a few things that have either already been brought up as well as a few of my own noms. This post is pretty long, and if there are any typos I apologize because I am on mobile atm. Here we go!

A- ---> A: Agree
Clef is pretty nice in the current meta. It is really splashable as a blanket check to stuff like Zygarde, non-Flash Cannon Mage, Medi, and Chomp. It is also a rocker who can get up rocks vs. Stall, which not very many other rockers can do. Its movepool is diverse too, allowing it to use support moves like Knock Off and Twave as well as coverage options such as Flamethrower. Magic Guard Clef is immune to entry hazards, which is important since Spikes and Tspikes are everywhere atm. It also is seeing high usage and success in WCOP. Definitely agree with this one.

A ---> A-: Disagree
Keldeo is still one of the best scarfers in the tier due to its ability to rkill stuff like Greninja, Tyranitar (and mega), Volcarona, and Lando-T. It can actually revenge kill Volc a lot easier than it could a couple of months ago since Charti usage has dropped significantly. Specs Keldeo is also a very underrated breaker that can heavily dent stuff that can normally take on its scarf set like AV Tang and Celesteela. Keld is fine in A.

A- ---> B+: Agree
With fat steels like Celesteela and AV Mage everywhere atm, Zam kinda has a hard time in the current meta. It also kinda fits better with the mons in B+ like Weavile and Gyara. I would really only use this paired with Lele, so it can actually do damage to its checks better.

A- ---> B+: Agree
With Pursuit trapping still on the rise and fat steels like AV Mage and Celes everywhere, Gengar doesnt have it too easy atm. A lot of the time it cant spam its Ghost STAB because it risks potentially getting trapped by Ttar or Weavile. Choiced sets give Mega Tar set up, which is never good. Also, as Colonel M said a while back, it has a horrendous win % in WCOP, so yeah. Drop it imo.

A- ---> B+: Unsure
Not sure how to feel about this one. Zone can be very nice for teams that have trouble with Celesteela, Ferrothorn, or Skarm, which are all common atm. It can also check Prot Gren and Koko as well with its AV set (really its only set atm). With that said, most Skarm are running Shed Shell atm, so unless it gets knocked off, Mag cant trap it. The rise of fire types like Tran and Zard Y is annoying for it too. Wouldn't be upset with it staying or dropping.

A- ---> B+: Mostly Agree
Sciz is still a nice check to Zygarde and the rising Bulu, but stuff like Tran and Zard Y are both becoming more popular. Most of the time, Mew is the better option as a defogger due to the amount of things it blanket checks. Sciz is still nice for certain builds who need Bulu and Zygarde checked, but it should probably drop.

B ---> B+/A-: Agree
Suicune is one of the most annoying mons in the tier, as it can easily stall out would-be checks like Tang and Ferro with Sub + Protect + CM + Pressure. A lot of bulkier teams just crumble to this mon. It can also take advantage of the very popular SubToxic Heatran, as it outspeeds it and subs up vs. it. It has also had good success on WCOP thus far. Empo and Dreadfury both really summed up my thoughts on this thing well with their posts here and here.

---> B+ (maybe A-)
Gallade is a very good mon in the meta. Good speed tier for a breaker (110), solid bulk, and the ability to pressure bulky Psychics like Mew with SD + Knock sets it apart from other breakers. Medicham is better as an immediate breaker, but its access to SD makes it a really solid breaker rn. Its solid bulk prevents it from being rkilled by some scarfers like Keld and Latios. A lot of fat cores consisting of Celes + Pex + Tang get shredded by this. Despite this, it is deadweight vs. Stall because it is hard walled by Sab. Fat Lando can take it on really well too (unless it runs ice punch, and in that case, its not running zen, meaning its walled by clef and pex). It also falls to priority users like CB Zyg's Espeed and Pinsirs Quick Attack. Im fine with it being either a subrank below Medi or on even par with it.

---> B
Lop has been underwhelming in my experience. It is simply deadweight vs a lot of fatter teams that have things like Pex/Celes. It really needs PuP to even break through things, but even then, it still needs fatter things weakened to do anything substantial. Its nice vs offenses, but because of the amount of support it needs for fat teams, I think B is fine for it.

---> B-
Garde is another mon that has been a bit underwhelming. I dont like the comparison between this and Lele either, as they have different things going for it. Garde has wisp, which can cripple things like Maw if you feel alright with sacking Garde. It doesnt put up Psy Terrian, which can actually be beneficial to some teams that have priority users like Ash Gren or CB Zyg. It has a stronger Fairy STAB, which is annoying to switch into at times due to its lack of immunities. Despite this, you use your mega slot on it and you cant run an item on it, unlike lele. It also gets a max of 1 kill vs Stall because Duggy traps it. Fat steels are everywhere atm, which sucks for garde. B- is fine for it.

C ---> C+
Here is my own nom. Hawlucha can easily clean up late game with the right support. Once it uses its item (usually elec seed with koko), it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame, and when paired with SD, it is very difficult to stop late game. It gets set up opportunity vs more passive mons or mons it forces out like Tang, Ferro, TTar, and Bulu. While it isnt limited to just rain, its main niche is on rain teams, as it has fantastic offensive synergy with most rain mons, pressuring and beating most of the common checks to rain, like Tang, Ferro, and Venu. Because of Electric Seed's defense boost, it can also take priority moves like Weaviles Ice Shard and Pinsirs Quick Attack and kill both in return with HJK/Drain Punch and Acrobatics, respectively. Here is a replay of Hawlucha being used in tour play and cleaning up late game: KratosMana vs. Alexander. This was R1 of WCOP. Alexander is able to punch holes early on with rain breakers, which allows Hawlucha to easily clean up late game without the need of an SD. Hawlucha isnt without flaws however, as it is very bad vs stall. Common mons like mew and defensive lando give it a hard time too. Despite this, I think Hawlucha should move up to C+, because of its potency late game and its important niche on rain. It also is just better than things in C, like Mega Pidgeot and Cresselia, and more on par with C+ mons like Mega Chomp, Cofag, and Starmie.

Im unsure about moving Gren up to S or moving Zapdos to A. I have used both a lot, but still am indifferent on both. Would be ok with either outcome. I also dont want to make this post longer than it already is lol. Thanks for the read guys!

 

[Vert]

^ Very nice post, especially when summing up my thoughts for Gardevoir.

I disagree with Clefable rising just because it's bait to the deadly Fire-types in the tier, particularly Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, and Heatran, all possible / current A+ candidates. The same can be said about Mew, but Mew brings much more to the table in terms of Defog, Will-O-Wisp, and wide movepool where Earth Power and Volt Switch can be run. Generally, you will not see Clefable and Mew on the same team (unless you are running gay stall). It's obviously annoying because it is pink, but I feel like it is a bit early to place it with Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Ferrothorn which have a way more established role on a team. Hawlucha is hot right now and should no longer be with the likes Om-ass-tar. Raise it a subrank.

Jirachi, Hoopa-U, and Bisharp should go to B. Jirachi's only niche is checking Shift Gear Magearna because Tapu Lele isn't exactly the hottest thing around the block. It loses to everything in A+ because Tapu Bulu are running a Jolly nature now. Literally gets taken advantage of by the majority of the metagame, and to top it all off, it's trapped by Dugtrio. It doesn't even beat Protean Greninja since those often run Dark Pulse. Hoopa-U is unexplored at the moment, and its wallbreaking capabilities are impractical since it is trapped by Dugtrio. Mew are running 290 to 292 Speed for Zygarde / Mimikyu, so Hoopa-U cannot take advantage of that Pokemon like it could before. This leaves it with the Choice Specs sets which cannot break Assault Vest Magearna and plays a guessing game of "prediction or die" every turn. Bisharp can be argued to stay, but it really isn't a splashable offensive threat like Weavile which resides in B+ as well. It is limited to Sticky Web and Aurora Veil playstyles, and it is still rarely seen on the latter playstyle. Not to mention people are preparing for Sticky Web in general. It also gets burned by the most common Defog user in the tier, Mew, once again forcing it to Sticky Web to be in the most effective position. Another Pokemon Dugtrio traps, sigh. Fuck this gay 'mon.

I personally think Alolan Marowak should stay where it is. While Tyranitar trends are annoying, a lot of them are still using Mega, so they lack Pursuit. I think the biggest draw is how dominant stall is right now. It completely destroys stall with Dugtrio forgoing Pursuit, and it still checks Magearna quite nicely since Fairium Z trends are dying. It forces out a lot of great Pokemon in Celesteela, Mew (unless Knock Off), Tangrowth, Mega Charizard Y, etc.

That's all I wanted to say since I thought B+ was kind of inaccurate for the moment, and we should see a much more accurate B+ ranking after some Pokemon fall into that subrank with this next update.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Mawile A - A-



Little more controversial here but Recent meta changes have not been kind to Mawile. Outside of ttar usage rising we're looking at Tangrowth dropping Volcorna being popular still Keldeo dropping off a little Heatran coming in hot Pinsir gives this this competition as a mega cleaner and Zard Y is as good as ever as a wall breaker being able to destroy the 2 best mons where as Mawile is walled unless fire fang for magearna. Mew becoming popular can suck because of willo wisp being spread like a bitch and Dugtrio coming back only makes Mawiles life worse. I feel like since this thing has come out more options have opened up to us for hard hitting Megas and overall I think Mawile is about as effective as Heracross in this meta so drop to A-

Edit: forgot about all the offensive psychics dropping off too giving Mawile less switch ins and fire types rising giving it even less switch in oppurtunitys

 

[Reviloja753]

^ Very nice post, especially when summing up my thoughts for Gardevoir.

I disagree with Clefable rising just because it's bait to the deadly Fire-types in the tier, particularly Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, and Heatran, all possible / current A+ candidates. The same can be said about Mew, but Mew brings much more to the table in terms of Defog, Will-O-Wisp, and wide movepool where Earth Power and Volt Switch can be run. Generally, you will not see Clefable and Mew on the same team (unless you are running gay stall). It's obviously annoying because it is pink, but I feel like it is a bit early to place it with Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Ferrothorn which have a way more established role on a team. Hawlucha is hot right now and should no longer be with the likes Om-ass-tar. Raise it a subrank.

Jirachi, Hoopa-U, and Bisharp should go to B. Jirachi's only niche is checking Shift Gear Magearna because Tapu Lele isn't exactly the hottest thing around the block. It loses to everything in A+ because Tapu Bulu are running a Jolly nature now. Literally gets taken advantage of by the majority of the metagame, and to top it all off, it's trapped by Dugtrio. It doesn't even beat Protean Greninja since those often run Dark Pulse. Hoopa-U is unexplored at the moment, and its wallbreaking capabilities are impractical since it is trapped by Dugtrio. Mew are running 290 to 292 Speed for Zygarde / Mimikyu, so Hoopa-U cannot take advantage of that Pokemon like it could before. This leaves it with the Choice Specs sets which cannot break Assault Vest Magearna and plays a guessing game of "prediction or die" every turn. Bisharp can be argued to stay, but it really isn't a splashable offensive threat like Weavile which resides in B+ as well. It is limited to Sticky Web and Aurora Veil playstyles, and it is still rarely seen on the latter playstyle. Not to mention people are preparing for Sticky Web in general. It also gets burned by the most common Defog user in the tier, Mew, once again forcing it to Sticky Web to be in the most effective position. Another Pokemon Dugtrio traps, sigh. Fuck this gay 'mon.

I personally think Alolan Marowak should stay where it is. While Tyranitar trends are annoying, a lot of them are still using Mega, so they lack Pursuit. I think the biggest draw is how dominant stall is right now. It completely destroys stall with Dugtrio forgoing Pursuit, and it still checks Magearna quite nicely since Fairium Z trends are dying. It forces out a lot of great Pokemon in Celesteela, Mew (unless Knock Off), Tangrowth, Mega Charizard Y, etc.

That's all I wanted to say since I thought B+ was kind of inaccurate for the moment, and we should see a much more accurate B+ ranking after some Pokemon fall into that subrank with this next update.

Jirachi is fine at B+ imo. Scarf is still a major cheese factor and is a niche Jirachi has all to itself in OU.

Also, what? Duggy still shreds Alolawak with EQ. Another thing- how does Fairium Z Magearna do anything to Alolawak in the first place? And Mega Ttar runs Stone Edge. How does that not blow Alolawak away?

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Jirachi is fine at B+ imo. Scarf is still a major cheese factor and is a niche Jirachi has all to itself in OU.

Also, what? Duggy still shreds Alolawak with EQ. Another thing- how does Fairium Z Magearna do anything to Alolawak in the first place? And Mega Ttar runs Stone Edge. How does that not blow Alolawak away?

There's this thing called switching out that Alolan Marowak can do safely if the opponent lacks Pursuit.

As for Magearna:
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 191-225 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With any other Z-Move Alowak can comfortably switch in on Shift Gear, even if Rocks are on the field, and force Magearna to run for it.