Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Toshiro46]

Scarf Nihilego

I'd argue that I did provide evidence. Steels are a staple of the meta and being walled by every one of them (bar like, Skarmory) is plenty of reason to keep it out of A-. Every offensive mon in the A ranks can either hit steels SEffectively/Neutrally with their STABs (CharY/A-Gren for instance) or have a strong coverage move to break through them (Megagross, Autotomize Celesteela, Mega-Pinsir).

vsomani

Spikes wears down anything grounded, saying that they should be a reason for Nihilego's rise because they wear down steels is ridiculous.

Serperior has multiple different sets (SubLeech, Offensive sweeper, and also scarf has gained popularity) and really doesn't have 4MSS at all. All it requires is Leaf Storm + HP Fire, the rest is just dependent on the set. Sure, it'd like to run more, but that holds true for basically every poke in existence. That's not 4MSS. Gyara is doing just fine. Being able to set up on defensive Lando T (and offensive sets running Fly over Stone Edge) is super nice and always has been and the drop in Fini's effectiveness just helps it since it can save its z move for another target. It's not like Lando/Fini is the only core it deals well with. After reading your baton pass comment I'm pretty sure you're just talking out of your ass. BP is doing fine and just got a little better with Medicham.

Nihilego really does only do one thing: It revenge kills as a scarfer. Specs is ok, I guess, but stuff like specs Keldeo exists with a better speed tier and STAB combo. It's primary role in the meta is scarfing, and there are several alternatives for that. Meanwhile, only Scoli can speed pass (viably, anyway) and only Gyara can function as a DD moxie sweeper (what's salamence) with a near perfect neutral STAB combo (what's rotom-w).

The other pokes you added aren't great examples either. CharX is being discussed for a drop, Bulu should drop, and Skarmory only sees use on stall.

lol spikes wear down steels

 

[UltraBallz]

At this point neither Toshiro46 nor vsomani have offered decent evidence to support their positions on Nihilego beyond a superficial analysis of what the Pokemon does, but this post deserves further scrutiny. I must, however, still disagree.

The argument that Nihilego cannot break through Steels is very important, actually, precisely because it needs so much team support. Ironically, that sentence of yours is explaining why Nihilego should remain in B+. You can't just say "slap a Steel counter on your team" because, well, give me a Pokemon that can check every Steel type. Magnezone, the gold standard of Steel killing, loses to Mega Metagross and can't reliably trap either Mega Mawile or Mega Scizor; the former can kill it with Fire Fang + Sucker Punch and the latter can U-turn out. Plus, Nihilego and Magnezone are both extremely weak to Keldeo (the true best Choice Scarf user in the tier) and Ground-types.
You're right that Nihilego revenge kills all of the Tapus with ease; however, offense isn't exactly weak to the Tapus, at least not more so than other archetypes. Balance, for instance, has a great deal of trouble with Tapu Lele by itself. I don't know why Choice Scarf Lele is "notable" since it has really fallen off both in popularity and in effectiveness. Yes, Nihilego can switch into Mega Charizard Y, but offensive teams generally have plenty of counterplay to a 100 Speed wallbreaker with lackluster physical bulk. Besides, offense struggles to switch into much more than just Mega Charizard Y. Can Nihilego switch into Mega Metagross? Mega Mawile? Tapu Lele? Greninja? Landorus-T? The Mega Charizard Y point makes me think you searched the viability rankings for the one prevalent Mega Evolution that Nihilego is already notable for beating.
You claim that it can revenge kill nearly every offensive threat, but what of balance and stall? I will not elaborate, since you have not, but I personally find its matchup against slower, bulkier teams less-than-stellar.
Also do note that Nihilego can't tank Special attacks more than a couple of times, so it is odd when you say that Steels can be broken through but Nihilego should be used as a switch-in. In fact I would argue it is far easier to wear down a Nihilego than to wear down a Ferrothorn or Mega Scizor, simply due to the difference in typing and mixed bulk.
Nihilego is a great late game win condition, but it is not at all a self-sufficient win condition. You have to cater to its (many) needs, and even then it might not win on its own.
Finally, I'll touch on the Keldeo comparison. Nihilego struggles with Steels and Grounds; okay. Keldeo struggles with bulky Waters and Grasses. First of all, your wording itself suggests a clear difference; Keldeo can still handle offensive Water-types and Grass-types with Secret Sword, while Nihilego is hard-pressed to face any Steel-type in the metagame. Second, there are more good Steel-types than good bulky Waters or Grasses. You have Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, Amoonguss. Nihilego can't dent Amoonguss and has to predict the Toxapex switch-in to 2HKO it wih Thunder...assuming it even hits twice. On the other hand, Keldeo can revenge kill many of the tier's Steel-types and Ground-types with just its STABs, while Nihilego has to hope it's packing the right 4x effective Hidden Power for the match. Finally, you've even admitted it yourself; Nihilego has little variety. Keldeo, however, has other good sets, such as Specs and CM (+Z-Hyper Beam). Nihilego has a decent Specs set itself but Keldeo's is better in my opinion. Hazards lead Nihilego is subpar so I won't discuss it.
Keep Nihilego B+ for now.

Thanks for the response. I do think there is an interesting discussion to be had here so I'll try and clarify some of my opinions. Even if it doesn't change your mind it can help others reading through the thread.

The reason i mention zard y is not because i just blindly went to the rankings to find something nihilego checks. its because it is one of the mons bulky offense hates. bulky O likes defensive pivots like lando, rotom, AV magearna, AV tang etc and whenever zard y gets in on these mons it gets a free kill unless you have something like nihilego or bulky zygarde on your team. It doesn't matter that it "can only tank a couple of special hits" because if you are using a more offensively inclined team you don't need momentum sapping walls that can switch in indefinitely, just something that can check a couple of times. And of course it can't switch in to metagross or lele like you were asking sarcastically. no one ever said it could, but normally the types of teams i'm talking about already have ways to pivot into these attackers. zard y not so much which is why i thought it was at least worth mentioning.

I think the biggest difference in our opinions tho is what a scarfer is supposed to do. I don't care if nihilego gets walled by steel types as long as it can deal with the offensive threats in front of it and to that it does a fantastic job. it is able to scare out/ revenge such a large portion of the meta. you make it seem like it is so hard to beat steels if you use nihilego and that it needs so much team support but that is simply not the case. There are really countless teammates you can use as breakers that can muscle through steels. Breaking is not meant to be done by your scarfer. Even stuff like garchomp who is widely accepted as a great scarfer has immunitys to both stabs and walled by lando t. does that make it bad at its job? No, because it is a reliable way to deal with fast attackers and speed boosters that can run train through more offensive teams. Nihilego really only has one good role in OU but I think it is exceptional at that role and that is why I'd be in favor of a rise.

miscellaneous stuff:
I definitely wouldn't call normalium CM or specs other good keld sets. those sets are both bad. keld is a great scarfer and still would be ranked higher than nihilego even with a raise but lets not kid ourselves by saying keldeo's ranking has anything to do with those two sets.

i agree nihilego is bad vs fat shit but so is every scarfer that doesn't have trick. again beating fat stuff isn't the role of a scarfer.

Reason I mentioned scarf lele, although definitely not the best lele set, is because it still is a real problem to offensive teams and I have seen it more in the past week or so than I have in a while. I do think its a little funny though you try and argue against my point because i mention scarf lele but then you make an argument using normalium z keldeo XD. no disrespect, just trying to have some fun haha. But thats the end of my rambling. I definitely understand where you are coming from just wanted to clarify some stuff since my first post wasn't too detailed. have a nice day :)

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

Added to A+

B+ ---> A-

Unranked ---> B

C+ ---> B-

C+ ---> B-

Drops

A- ---> B+

• Mega Medicham was finally released from the void and is already showing that it's back to destroy anything slower than it just like last gen. Extremely strong spammable STAB moves with the addition of Terrain boosts which helps it blast through fatter builds more consistently; Electric Terrain T-Punch is great for 2HKOing Mega Sableye while Psychic Terrain Zen Headbutts are basically unwallable and can actually OHKO Lele after a bit of prior damage lol. It's easily one of the best breakers in the tier alongside Mawile, but it sacrifices bulk and a good defensive typing for a workable Speed tier that keeps it from being as easily pressured. Fake Out is also still a VERY good move on it for punishing offensive Pokemon such as Gren, Koko, Zam and boosted sweepers.
• Zapdos has been seeing a lot more usage recently for its 3 attacks Roost set, which allows it to still retain its bulky capabilities while being very difficult to manage defensively in general outside of very fat special walls. Elec/Fire/Ice coverage is very useful in the current metagame, and keeps Pokemon such as Zygarde, Lando-T, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Pinsir, Mawile, and so many other threats in check.
• Read Subject 18's post as well as my post in QC for an explanation as to why the sudden huge jump for Zam.
• Both Alo and Muk were discussed as having stronger niches in the metagame than most of the Pokemon in C+, which is why they jumped randomly. AV Muk is still a solid Lele check with Pursuit as well as one of the few reliable Protean Greninja and Gengar switch-ins in the tier, while also dealing with other random special attackers such as Volcarona and Zard-Y, making it a cool glue Pokemon. Alo is a fat defensive pivot that can also semi-reliably deal with Protean Greninja, as well as dozens of other Pokemon on top of supporting its teammates with massive wishes.
• Zard X has fallen off quite a bit this gen for many reasons. 101+ Scarfers are way too common and splashable for it to ever reliably sweep, and its early game breaking abilities are hindered heavily by Pokemon such as Rocky Lando-T, Toxapex, and recoil from Blitz. SR are also a lot harder to remove at the moment and it is easily pressured because of this.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Thanks for the response. I do think there is an interesting discussion to be had here so I'll try and clarify some of my opinions. Even if it doesn't change your mind it can help others reading through the thread.

The reason i mention zard y is not because i just blindly went to the rankings to find something nihilego checks. its because it is one of the mons bulky offense hates. bulky O likes defensive pivots like lando, rotom, AV magearna, AV tang etc and whenever zard y gets in on these mons it gets a free kill unless you have something like nihilego or bulky zygarde on your team. It doesn't matter that it "can only tank a couple of special hits" because if you are using a more offensively inclined team you don't need momentum sapping walls that can switch in indefinitely, just something that can check a couple of times. And of course it can't switch in to metagross or lele like you were asking sarcastically. no one ever said it could, but normally the types of teams i'm talking about already have ways to pivot into these attackers. zard y not so much which is why i thought it was at least worth mentioning.

I think the biggest difference in our opinions tho is what a scarfer is supposed to do. I don't care if nihilego gets walled by steel types as long as it can deal with the offensive threats in front of it and to that it does a fantastic job. it is able to scare out/ revenge such a large portion of the meta. you make it seem like it is so hard to beat steels if you use nihilego and that it needs so much team support but that is simply not the case. There are really countless teammates you can use as breakers that can muscle through steels. Breaking is not meant to be done by your scarfer. Even stuff like garchomp who is widely accepted as a great scarfer has immunitys to both stabs and walled by lando t. does that make it bad at its job? No, because it is a reliable way to deal with fast attackers and speed boosters that can run train through more offensive teams. Nihilego really only has one good role in OU but I think it is exceptional at that role and that is why I'd be in favor of a rise.

miscellaneous stuff:
I definitely wouldn't call normalium CM or specs other good keld sets. those sets are both bad. keld is a great scarfer and still would be ranked higher than nihilego even with a raise but lets not kid ourselves by saying keldeo's ranking has anything to do with those two sets.

i agree nihilego is bad vs fat shit but so is every scarfer that doesn't have trick. again beating fat stuff isn't the role of a scarfer.

Reason I mentioned scarf lele, although definitely not the best lele set, is because it still is a real problem to offensive teams and I have seen it more in the past week or so than I have in a while. I do think its a little funny though you try and argue against my point because i mention scarf lele but then you make an argument using normalium z keldeo XD. no disrespect, just trying to have some fun haha. But thats the end of my rambling. I definitely understand where you are coming from just wanted to clarify some stuff since my first post wasn't too detailed. have a nice day :)

I wholly agree with you that a Choice Scarf user is not supposed to wallbreak. However, you're missing my point. Nihilego cannot break even moderately bulky Steels, many of which have great offensive presence. You are too hasty in generalizing my argument to prove your point.

I brought up CM Normalium Z as an example of Keldeo's ability to actually beat some of the things that usually bother it. On the other hand, Nihilego's list of checks is pretty much set in stone, with the only variation depending on Hidden Power Fire / Ice.

Choice Specs Keldeo is A, the same rank as Scarf; for that matter, CM Normalium Z is B, just one subrank below Nihilego. I agree, let's not kid ourselves; Keldeo's ranking has plenty to do with those two sets.

The problem with Nihilego isn't that its Choice Scarf set is bad, it's that both you and the opponent know exactly what you'll get out of it. It has little to no versatility. To contrast, you don't actually know Garchomp's set until it outspeeds your Tapu Koko, uses Swords Dance, sets up Stealth Rock, or the like. You also forget to mention that Choice Scarf Garchomp simply has better coverage than Nihilego, as well as more well-rounded bulk.

Charizard Y is an A- mon that already has issues dealing with Stealth Rock in a metagame without good hazard removal. You also mentioned Zygarde which I see much more frequently than Nihilego, especially on bulky offense and balance. Nihilego is the best offensive check to Charizard Y, but we've known about Nihilego's capabilities for a while now. Has anything changed to benefit it? If anything, I think the metagame is harsher to it now (see my original post).

Also I welcome you to clarify some of your claims, which I will quote below.

but normally the types of teams i'm talking about already have ways to pivot into these attackers.

Which says little about Nihilego's own viability.

There are really countless teammates you can use as breakers that can muscle through steels.

And so we should nominate these breakers, not Nihilego, for a rise, no?

Finally I would like to quote a (potentially outdated) definition of B rank, from Issue 31 of The Smog.

B rank Pokémon are great at what they do, but also have some issues that prevent them from being higher, such as some dependence on team support or partial outclassing by A or S rank Pokémon, but this doesn't mean that they aren't good Pokémon.

I believe that Nihilego is among the best of the B rank Pokemon, and so it should be in B+. But it does not have the greater self-sufficiency or singular strengths (Mega Charizard Y) of the Pokemon in A-.

 

[Leo]

Finally I would like to quote a (potentially outdated) definition of B rank, from Issue 31 of The Smog.


I believe that Nihilego is among the best of the B rank Pokemon, and so it should be in B+. But it does not have the greater self-sufficiency or singular strengths (Mega Charizard Y) of the Pokemon in A-.

Nitpicking, but in general you should try to avoid using Rank definitions for your arguments. Even if they weren't outdated-ish they don't help your arguments at all and are counterproductive if anything because most people don't take them that seriously anymore, at least not here idk if they are being taken into consideration in other VRs. Not trying to counterargument something you said because I agree with you but just trying to get this out of the way so you avoid it in the future. At least as far as I know it isn't a real argument here

 

[Vert]

i think scarf nihilego is a very poor set due to the prevalence of faster scarf users on offense such as keldeo and greninja and soft checks such as scizor and metagross. its completely useless against balance too. if you are going to try justify a nihilego rise, it would be the specs set with a speed boosting ev spread. power gem / sludge wave / dazzling gleam / hp fire can still beat offense with a speed boost and actually break balance because of how ferrothorn get destroyed by hp fire and zygarde takes an L from dazzling gleam. scarf is not that good in this metagame.

i would like to see a kartana rise. very powerful breaker and a well played kartana gets 2 kills against balance and just 6-0s stall since vacuum wave breaks skarmory sturdy and prevents dugtrio from clicking reversal. +2 bloom is unstoppable. a subrank higher would be nice.

 

[GnuGnu]

I love Nihilego and it finds its way on basically all my teams because of how reliable it is as a scarfer, but I think it's fine where it is.

Scarf Nihilego is super good at its job. Not having to rely on stone miss to grab crucial KOs is amazing, and it has a really underrated special bulk which allows it to be an offensive check to many special attackers, rather than just a revenge killer (eg. Char-Y, some Volcarona). Beast boost is pretty great on it as well, it has absolutely zero chance of getting an early sweep right now in this meta, but late game it can sometimes clean (and I'd argue it can do it better than ScarfChomp but that's debatable). Absorbing toxic spikes is also a huge plus when many teams aren't using dedicated hazard removal anymore. In general, it checks a bunch of stuff and does it IMO, more reliably than any other scarfer (including Keldeo IMO, although the difference is Keldeo is often way more threatening outside of its revenge killing role)

The problem with Nihilego is that its very one dimensional, and is easily stopped by a lot of current team archetypes. Being one dimensional isn't necessary a problem when you do that one thing very well but unfortunately Nihilego's counters (namely, Steels) are so commonplace that the opponent is never at risk at sending in their Nihilego counter, especially if you're carrying HP ice. Nihilego can sort of punish some switch-ins with HP fire but it does impact its the amount of things it can check and still does pretty pitiful damage to things like Metagross. While it can force a lot of things out, it is generally pretty easy to switch into so it is often quite a momentum sink, especially because many pokemon are immune to its strongest STAB move and many people carry more than a couple resists to its other STAB. This isn't a problem exclusive to Nihilego, (eg. ScarfChomp but it has dropped in usage for that very reason) but I think it is worth pointing out how easy it is to deal with Nihilego for most teams.

Spikes was brought up as a way to wear down steels but I think it works both ways. One of the Nihilego's strongest attributes is the fact that it doesn't have to revenge kill a lot of special attackers, it can switch into them and KO them (but usually you just force them out and do a pitiful amount of damage to a steel type). But spikes really hinders Nihilego's ability to constantly sponge special attack. Granted, you shouldn't use Nihilego too recklessly, but the role compression it offers is one of its big selling points. With hazards on the field, Nihilego no longer likes switching into Fire Blasts from Char-Y too much; it puts a lot of pressure on the Nihilego whereas on the flip side, Nihilego isn't that difficult to switch into. Nihilego does work well with spike support for sure, but it's also hindered by it so I wouldn't necessarily say that it is benefitting from the current meta.

And perhaps the biggest problem with Nihilego is Dugtrio. Nihilego is so completely utterly screwed by Dugtrio that it really screws up its ability to check the things its suppose to be checking. In a vacuum, Nihilego destroys things like Char-Y and Volcarona. But considering most teams with these pokemon carry Dugtrio and a dedicated hazard remover, it becomes pretty risky to send Nihilego out because a double switch into Dugtrio will ruin your life. I personally think Dugtrio's existence is one of the biggest reasons for why Nihilego shouldn't rise because it hugely impacts its ability to do what it needs to be doing. Yes, you can play around Dugtrio but it's not easy to do, especially if there's a Charizard breathing Fire Blasts into your face.

I think Nihilego is really good, probably my favourite mon in B+ but I think B+ accurately represents its viability in the meta-game. If Dugtrio had been banned I would probably be more inclined to agree that it is A- material.

As a side note, I really like Scarf Rocks Nihilego. Nihilego does force a lot of things out, and so it gets a lot of opportunities to use rocks. I usually prefer to put up rocks than to hit a steel type with a weak attack. It does require some prediction and it can backfire sometimes, but it backfires a lot less often that one would think. You can even cause some confusion sometimes about what set you are and get a surprise kill later on. I never found consistent uses for using stuff like Thunder as a fourth move on Nihilego (I know there are some, but they aren't that common), whereas Stealth Rock can find use in almost any game since Nihilego will mostly likely check something on your opponent's team. If you're after a lot of role compression, use this set, it can alleviate a few team building issues.

 

[snaildelagate]

Mew B- --> B

Mew Set

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt / Knock Off
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled

In a spikes infested metagame reliable defoggers that can beat both spikes Ferrothorn and Spikes Gren are hard to come by but Mew's bulkiness along with its ability to pack taunt allows it to deal with both consistently.

0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mew can switch into Spikes Protean Greninja and unless it gets poisoned 1st round from a gunk shot it can keep Protean Greninja from stacking spikes with defog (granted it doesn't do much back to gren but it fairs better than any other defogger rn). It also forms a nice check to AoA Greninja not packing U-Turn since it can deal with its strongest moves with relative ease. Mew's ability to use taunt allows it to stop Ferrothorn from leech seeding it and setting up hazards in its face also forcing it out. Mew's ability to run Will-o-Wisp means that its only really set-up fodder for Volcarona and its 100/100/100 defenses means it can take some significant hits from common SR setters w/o much worry especially because it can throw a will-o-wisp out to cripple them. While it does have its flaws the ability to deal with spikes with relative ease in a spikes infested metagame, means that Mew fulfills a role that no other hazard remover can really boast of right now except Starmie, who lacks the utility mew provides. The departure of Pheromosa greatly benefitted mew as well as Pheromosa was one of the strongest users of Bug-STAB in the metagame and QD sets turned mew into set up fodder but without phero mew's defensive typing while not greatly is not easily exploited due to the lack of pursuit trappers and strong u turners in the tier. While not a perfect Pokemon Mew has a better niche that it can do better than most of the pokemon in B- right now.

 

[Subject 18]

In a spikes infested metagame reliable defoggers that can beat both spikes Ferrothorn and Spikes Gren are hard to come by but Mew's bulkiness along with its ability to pack taunt allows it to deal with both consistently.

PSA. Mew does not beat Greninja.

That is all.

 

[vso]

I wholly agree with you that a Choice Scarf user is not supposed to wallbreak. However, you're missing my point. Nihilego cannot break even moderately bulky Steels, many of which have great offensive presence. You are too hasty in generalizing my argument to prove your point.

I brought up CM Normalium Z as an example of Keldeo's ability to actually beat some of the things that usually bother it. On the other hand, Nihilego's list of checks is pretty much set in stone, with the only variation depending on Hidden Power Fire / Ice.

Choice Specs Keldeo is A, the same rank as Scarf; for that matter, CM Normalium Z is B, just one subrank below Nihilego. I agree, let's not kid ourselves; Keldeo's ranking has plenty to do with those two sets.

The problem with Nihilego isn't that its Choice Scarf set is bad, it's that both you and the opponent know exactly what you'll get out of it. It has little to no versatility. To contrast, you don't actually know Garchomp's set until it outspeeds your Tapu Koko, uses Swords Dance, sets up Stealth Rock, or the like. You also forget to mention that Choice Scarf Garchomp simply has better coverage than Nihilego, as well as more well-rounded bulk.

Charizard Y is an A- mon that already has issues dealing with Stealth Rock in a metagame without good hazard removal. You also mentioned Zygarde which I see much more frequently than Nihilego, especially on bulky offense and balance. Nihilego is the best offensive check to Charizard Y, but we've known about Nihilego's capabilities for a while now. Has anything changed to benefit it? If anything, I think the metagame is harsher to it now (see my original post).

Also I welcome you to clarify some of your claims, which I will quote below.


Which says little about Nihilego's own viability.

And so we should nominate these breakers, not Nihilego, for a rise, no?

Finally I would like to quote a (potentially outdated) definition of B rank, from Issue 31 of The Smog.


I believe that Nihilego is among the best of the B rank Pokemon, and so it should be in B+. But it does not have the greater self-sufficiency or singular strengths (Mega Charizard Y) of the Pokemon in A-.

What I'm saying by not needing much support is that for balances and some Bulky Offenses, Mega Scizor is pretty much enough to back up Nihilego. Mega Scizor not only Defogs but also is a reliable switch into Mega Metagross. It makes Nihilego not need to have Spikes support allowing it to wear down its checks and counters. For Mega Scizor + Nihilego, spikes are generally not run. For offenses and other Bulky Offenses, Nihilego paired with Ferrothorn is enough because Ferrothorn is a switch into non Hammer Arm Mega Metagross. Ferrothorn provides Nihelego spikes. Both of these Pokémon appreciate Nihilegos utility in checking a lot of threats. All Nihilego wants is something that switches into steels like Mega Metagross. I also don't know why Specs Nihilego gets so little respect in comparison to Choice Scarf.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

What's nice about Mew vs mega sableye is it can flip back burns(that's all) but I don't think Protean with spikes ever runs dark pulse cause they need at very least ice beam and Gunk Shot and u turn/hydro pump/psychic non sense is also good.

I could see it running
Roost
Defog
Taunt/Thunder wave(greninja/fire moth/prevent more hazards/add roost turns)
Coverage move(knock off sounds cool)

Mew is really good at doing barely everything but generally worse at single roles.

To avoid double post my bad

This has been nominated a few times over the last few weeks and I don't believe I've seen any disagreements on it, Hydreigon to C+ maybe it's because I'm not running any fairies but when it comes out safe it's often a bad time flinching with dark pulse when I switch to avoid a ko when mega sableye is at 60% from a darco.


It just eats away at switch ins so hard and kind of makes me think of a diet hoopa-U without crap defense and doesn't care about spikes and blows rocky helmet users out of the water with flamethrower or darco(not Toxapex) and really the only sure fire move You can always expect is dark pulse and fire blast/flamethrower or darco, the rest is a draw in the bag for roost, u turn, super power, flash cannon and item pick.


Just look at its movepool it doesn't make any sense and is perfect for u turn spam and choiced out speeds everything else if it's a worry

Just curious, but when are M. pidgeot & M. Steelix going to be ranked?

I haven't seen them but if there are replays outside of low ladder and points to be made I'm sure it's now fine

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

Just curious, but when are M. pidgeot & M. Steelix going to be ranked?

 

[Kyuzeth]

Just curious, but when are M. pidgeot & M. Steelix going to be ranked?

I think the better question is whether they'll be ranked, and the chances for either to gain a place in the rankings at all are quite slim. Mega Steelix is utterly and thoroughly outclassed and literally has no place in the OU metagame, while Mega Pidgeot might have some merit in No Guard Hurricane and the buffed Mega Speed changes, but the nerf to confusion does hurt its viability. I don't think either will be ranked, really.

Makes me curious about Mega Pidgeot, actually. Does it have anything noteworthy to its name in Gen 7 OU? I don't believe so. Sorry in advance for potentially sparking a shitmon discussion if it is one.

 

[Fire Fist Ace]

Like Kyuzeth said for Mega Pidgeot, No Guard Hurricanes are not something to take lightly. However it fails to punch through some things one would think it should easily decimate.

Heat Wave + Hurricane + 2 moves is going to be the gold standard probably. For those 2 moves you could run Defog, Roost, U-turn, Hidden Power, Work Up, or Refresh, depending on your team build.

This is not a nomination, but if I were to rank Mega Pidgeot I'd put it somewhere between C and B. Hurricane and Heat Wave alone are pretty good by themselves, but Tornadus-T can arguably do it better without being a Mega.

 

[Martin]

Mew is a little better than before, but it has nothing to do with Spikes at all lol. As a Defog user Mew is pretty mediocre (although yeah I guess it is an option if your team lacks one...), and it is only better than it was this time two weeks ago because Mega Medicham was introduced and Pheromosa was banned, with it being capable of easing the matchup versus the former on balanced teams with its HJK resistance--being able to stall out ETerrain with Softboiled if it is reasonably healthy. The same goes for Reuniclus, Mega Slowbro, Cofagreigus and Cresselia, which directly improve as a result of Mega Medicham's introduction due to being among a very small pool of genuine counters to Mega Medicham that aren't called Mega Sableye. IDK whether any of them improve substantially enough to warrant a rise, but yeah if you want to argue for Mew to rise this is why: not anything to do with Spikes.

Edit: actually i've dropped like half of this post 'cause it's not really that relevant to the thread

 

[Night Train Lane]

Mega Pidgeot should definitely be ranked; however, it should definitely be a AT LEAST a sub-rank below Tornadus-Therian. The only real niche over Torn is the Work-Up refresh stallbreaker set which is, in my opinion, still not better than Orb Taunt Torn. I've seen mostly 3 attack roost: Cane / Heat Wave / U-Turn / Roost; however, putting Torn in this spot would trade 100% accurate hurricanes for more bulk and a much better pivot while freeing up a slot for one of the broken megas like Metagross or Medicham, even more defensive utility and Defog potential with Scizor, or stall breaking with Mawile. I've had fun using it and it's one of my favorite megas but I don't see a clear cut reason to use it over Torn + better mega.

Steelix won't be ranked I'm sure. But it has the best 3D model in the game so put it in S for that.

EDIT: Martin gave more reasons for Steelix being used than I thought it had. I wouldn't be opposed to it being ranked but I don't think it'll get put on there.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

OK, this is my 1st post on the viability rankings and I may sound SLIGHTLY crazy for it. But...

Kartana: B- -> B+
​

For those aware of my Z-Giga Kartana, you may understand where I'm getting at with this raise (albeit not the only reason). With Pheromosa gone, and the lack of good removal leading to a rise in hazard stacking - I think new doors have opened for it to thrive in more ways than one. Let me explain:

As we know by now, the UBs thrive off of finding kills and being rewarded with Moxie-based boosts for it. This is assisted through hazards (as we know), and Kartana is no exception to this. If you refer to the calcs on the page I have given, Kartana is able to utilize Items such as Z-crystals (Z-Giga = 200BP Breakneck Blitz. Or Z-SS = AoP) well; or exchange that for your standard LO or Scarf to find kills with. While it doesn't quite find that many kills right from the word go (mostly due to none of it's best moves peaking past 100BP), this is OK for Kartana as you can knock many things into killing range A) thanks to it's good neutral coverage alongside 181 base attack (which is never anything to sneeze at), allowing to scare out a fair number of threats, and B) for teammates that might need setup fodder / certain walls weakened (stuff like Gren-A and certain DDers like Mence). After all, Pheromosa was never an "in case of emergency, sod the throttle" kind of threat, but could force switches in much the same way.

I'm aware this might be a fancy way of saying 'lol it appreciates Mosa banned', and in a few ways it is. However, as has already been discussed: the Pheromosa ban has had far more implications on the metagame than just 'Pokemon that lost to it became slightly better'. Good hazard removal has proven to be scarce, leading to far more realistic situations of chip damage that the offensively based UBs love. With this, I can also see Kartana making a superb offensive Defogger itself, thanks to many of the things it can force out (examples being lead Tyranitar, Mamoswine, Chansey etc.), respectable 109 base speed and an overlooked natural 131 PhysDef to boot.

Finally, I'm saying B+ as Kartana more then has the ability to take on everything in B and threaten all of them in some way; save for Kingdra under rain (due to it's poor Sp.Def) and CounterSash Alakazam. Just a ripe cherry on top, I guess.

Anyway, that's my nomination for a rise. Hope I got the formatting right - and I'd like to hear thoughts.
Later, lads!

EDIT: there seems to be a bit of stigma on what Z-Giga actually does. Make sure you read the link, guys...

 

[Mood4food77]

There is no reason to use Z-Giga Impact in OU on Kartana. It doesnt take care of things he struggled with. Z-Leaf Blade is stronger and Z-Sacred Sword actually deals with things.

This is not to discredit a possible bump but Z-Giga Impact is not a reason it should

 

[Fire Fist Ace]

There is no reason to use Z-Giga Impact in OU on Kartana. It doesnt take care of things he struggled with. Z-Leaf Blade is stronger and Z-Sacred Sword actually deals with things.

This is not to discredit a possible bump but Z-Giga Impact is not a reason it should

I mean...people used Z-Hyper Beam Pheromosa, and that was considered a legitimate threat on the suspect testing thread.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I mean...people used Z-Hyper Beam Pheromosa, and that was considered a legitimate threat on the suspect testing thread.

Exactly. Normalium Mosa was intended as a lure for Toxapex almost exclusively, whether I find that viable is up in the air... but it's where the inspiration for that set came into play.

Like I said, it's one suggestion. It's not a 'must pick' or 'lol r u trolling?' if people don't, as each set has different values.

 

[Scribble]

While I agree Kartana could rise (good speed tier with stupidly high Attack and good defense with the ability to run a couple different sets, it can break through fatter teams easily), you are misinformed about Z-Giga actually doing things.

252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 199-235 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Do not use Z-Giga Kartana please

On to my own nom

Unranked -> C
​

So this mon got a lot worse between gens, it now faces competition from Tapu Koko as an electric type with a good speed tier now, but I feel like leaving it unranked is inaccurate to its viability. Life Orb 4 Attacks is outclassed, as is pretty much every other set, except for SubCM, which is probably its best set atm and is legit good. I've had a lot of success with it when laddering. People are unprepared for it since like no one uses it, and it can catch people off guard too.

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This is the set I've been using, and it works great. It works as an effective late game cleaner and wind condition. It sets up or gets a Sub on mons like Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, etc. It has decent natural bulk, at 90/75/100, which is more than Tapu Koko and Thundurus. It also isn't weak to Stealth Rock which is everywhere right now like Thundurus is, which is another benefit it has over the other electrics. Its speed tier allows it to outspeed Mega Metagross, which is the biggest one. BoltBeam coverage lets it break through Zygarde, Lando-T, Garchomp, etc. It also has an amazing match up vs Trick Room oddly.

Some replays:
These are two games I played vs Trick Room, and it dealt with them pretty easily.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561869992
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561871129

Here's one vs a pretty standard team, Raikou is able to clean up at the end and use Fini as fodder.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561760557

It isn't the best mon, and it has its flaws, but its strengths are definitely that of a viable Pokemon to me.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Drop from C+ to C---Unranked

With the Pheromosa ban and the rise of Protean Ninja over Battle Bond, Primarina has a rough time trying to wallbreaking as the meta is going faster and more offensive. Sharing Tapu Fini's typing in this meta doesn't help either, as a lot of teams are overprepared for luring it. Also, the increasing viability/usage of Ferro, AV Tangrowth, AV Magnezone and Zapdos makes it harder to break the usual balance cores. There's a lot of wallbreakers faster and more powerful shadowing Primarina, specially now with the addition of M-Medicham. I can understand M-Medi and Primarina can form a great wallbreaking core due to Specs Prim one-shooting AWak and M-Sableye, but again it faces competition from Tapu Lele to, I would dare to say, Tankfable, which has access to Fire Blast and T-bolt.

+1 for ranking Raikou, here's a Pokeaim's live using it

 

[Sun King]

Drop from C+ to C---Unranked

With the Pheromosa ban and the rise of Protean Ninja over Battle Bond, Primarina has a rough time trying to wallbreaking as the meta is going faster and more offensive. Sharing Tapu Fini's typing in this meta doesn't help either, as a lot of teams are overprepared for luring it. Also, the increasing viability/usage of Ferro, AV Tangrowth, AV Magnezone and Zapdos makes it harder to break the usual balance cores. There's a lot of wallbreakers faster and more powerful shadowing Primarina, specially now with the addition of M-Medicham. I can understand M-Medi and Primarina can form a great wallbreaking core due to Specs Prim one-shooting AWak and M-Sableye, but again it faces competition from Tapu Lele to, I would dare to say, Tankfable, which has access to Fire Blast and T-bolt.

+1 for ranking Raikou, here's a Pokeaim's live using it

This thing still has a niche in countering Ash-Ninja, which is a huge threat, so I think dropping off the list completely is jumping the gun. The Phero ban definitely hurts, so I'll support a drop to C or C-

 

[Kutscher]

i disagree with primarian dropping, i use to hate primarina a lot, but recently i was forced to use it on my team because it was really weak to a-gren, and having a wallbreaker that can switch against a-gren and proced to kill something is really usefull, of course she faces a lot of competition from tapu lele, and being slow as shit is awfull, but being a nice switch to a-gren, being a nice check to rain, having a better bulk and better defensive typing, and the coverage allowing her to 2KO everytinhg not called Chansey(spotligh for having a stab that 2kos every steel type in the meta bar ferrothorn that is melted by hp fire) sure she have another flaws like if your enemy have toxapex+ferro you will need a ton of prediction, being shit against stall until chansey get removed and not outspeeding lando-t sucks for a wallbreaker but that's why she is at C+ and not on B- where the others anti-meta mon lives(a-muk, alo, brozong, mew, gastro and mantine) the things you listed also none of the things you listed can switch against primarina:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 163-193 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 316-373 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO(if your enemy lacks toxapex, this is extremly easy to predict)

i have some nice replays showing this mon doing some work:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560170483 (killed 2 pokemon and brought lando-t at range of mega-pisnir's return with hp fire)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560175865(literally just won the whole game for me against a rain team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560193485 (forces a lot of switches killed 3 mons, bulk allow her to tank mega scizor + garchomp)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560204967 (+1 zygarde would will lele or hoopa-u)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560300084 (that damage taken from hydro pump was because i played this battle on the phone and I put a wrong EV spread in HP and Spa)

ps: i think primarina is way better than all the mons in C and C-, maybe not better than xukitree bacuase of BP or pyukumunku(i fucking love this piece of shit) but it's better than volcanion for sure and arguably better than breloom and mega beedrill, and it's more suited for a rise than for a drop

edit 2: i forgot to mention how much primarina apreciates keldeo rise, every time keldeo tries to do something you can kill someone, also primarina can check some boosted things with it's bulk that lele or hoopa-u(the closests wallbreakres to her in my opinion) like +1 zygarde, +1volcarona,+1spa celesteela(can survive and unboosted SSSS with ease, survive a +SSSS without rocks at full health and survive a +1giga drain too) and +1char-x, also it's not pursuit bait and torrent may seems useless at first, sure it is situational but it's far from useless:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 310-366 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (celesteela can activate torrent just before of taking this nuke)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 255-301 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(if magearna uses volt switch and you had already recived some damage anything that the enemy tries to switch will like to recive this(except for chansey,shedinja, gastrodon and AV tangrwoth, but who uses this on an AV magearna team?), including...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 156-183 (45.4 - 53.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur: 200-236 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 199-235 (66.5 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 247-291 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
this hits harder than magearna's twinkle tackle or xukitree's gigavolt havoc

 

[Ryolain]

Exactly. Normalium Mosa was intended as a lure for Toxapex almost exclusively, whether I find that viable is up in the air... but it's where the inspiration for that set came into play.

Like I said, it's one suggestion. It's not a 'must pick' or 'lol r u trolling?' if people don't, as each set has different values.

Phero used it because Toxapex resisted literally every other attack it learned except Fling and Hidden Power. There's no reason for Kartana to do that when Leaf Blade hits for neutral damage. Going through S to A-, the only things you can't hit neutrally with Steel/Grass/Fighting coverage are A-Wak and Char-Y, which Giga doesn't help you beat.