Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Riddikulusness]

Here are some of my thoughts on some recent noms.

A ---> A+: Agree
Lele is super good atm. Specs is a damn nuke that is capable of OHKO'ing basically everything that doesnt resist its STAB of choice, or it 2HKO/3HKO's the stuff that does resist. Celesteela is commonly running more Phys. Def nowadays, meaning it cant take its STABs as well (barring psyshock). Shed Shell is still a nice Stallbreaker capable of breaking most stall builds. Scarf is, as stated before, one of, if not the best revenge killer atm if you have mons other mons for Volc. It also runs through a lot of offense builds. Even more uncommon options like Z-Thunder is pretty good to blow through stuff like Celesteela. Its been seen pretty commonly too throughout this cycle of OLT as well. Raise this imo.

B+ ---> A-: Agree
This mon is so cool. Basically one mon can always safely come in on this, being Mega Scizor. Pretty much everything else will just crumble to this thing. Z-Freeze Shock pretty much kills something unless its a fat resist. Stuff like Ferrothorn and Chansey just straight up die. This mon crushes defensive cores like CelePex, VenuSteela, and Mew + Tang. Kyub + Koko is an insane offensive core, as Eterrain helps Kyub muscle through stuff like AV Mage, which eats earth power very well (but cant switch in forever due to no recovery). This thing is a monster, use it if you havent already.

B ---> B-: Unsure
Gallade is in a weird spot. Its still very good vs most balances, as it beats one of the best cores atm, being VenuSteelaPex. One of the main things it had going for it over Medicham, which can just as easily beat that core (and most balances in general), was that it can break through Mew a lot better, and with Mew dropping a tad in viability, Gallade may as well. Mew is still a good mon however, so I'm honestly not sure. Id love to hear more thoughts on this one.

B+ ---> A-: Agree
I think Scarf Nihilego summed up my thoughts on this pretty well. Imo, Mega Latias fits better in A-. Its incredible bulk and ability allow it to check the likes of offensive Lando, Keldeo, Koko, Pinsir, Lopunny, and Bulu. Its CM set makes it even harder to kill, and it can even set up on some mons with SE coverage. CM + Stored Power + Tbolt beats most balance cores easily, like the aforementioned VenuTran (i just realized i mention this a lot lmao). Reflect Type allows it to beat Tran 1v1 and allows it to escape Ttar's pursuit. It has been seen running a roost + 3 atks set too, which is nice because of its access to boltbeam + fire coverage. It has other support options like Defog, Twave, and roar all of which can find their way onto sets, as it is fat enough and fast enough to Defog well. Twave and roar lets it cripple/phaze stuff that may want to come in and set up or fire of hits, like Mega Ttar or Tapu Lele. Again, Id love to hear peoples thoughts on this, but in my opinion, it should rise.

A+ ---> A: Unsure (again)
Vertex summed up my thoughts perfectly (again). Volc is in a weird place atm. With shed pex everywhere, psych z is really all I feel like I should run. On paper, bug z seems good, but in reality, its not nearly as consistant. The drop in 101+ scarfers really helps volc tho, as many teams are opting to use Scarfers like lele or lando from what ive seen. Scarf Keldeo isnt that good imo, chomp has always been meh as a scarfer, scarf gren has dropped a bit from what ive seen (though im unsure on this), and Terrakion hasnt been a thing in a while. It seems like a lot of teams now are banking on not running into volc. Stuff like scarf Latios is still a thing tho, and Scarf nape has been rising a bit too. Im just not sure if this is enough to keep it A+. Ive always been a huge fan of this mon, so Id love to hear other thoughts on this, since I am truly split on this.

B- ---> C+ or lower
I truly havent seen regular zam do anything significant in any tour game or on the ladder in a while. Sash counter is cool, sure, but I dont think it should be B- along with stuff like mega camel, which is an insane balance breaker, or alola ninetales, which is the face of one of the most dominant playstyles. Drop it to C+ or lower imo.

No comment about hippo. I legit havent used one since Mega Meta was in the tier, so idk about it rising. It seems cool on paper, so I could see it rising, but I need to use it more to get a fair opinion. Thats all I got now, thanks for reading!

 

[matthewc20090]

gonna disagree with a gallade drop cause right now the meta is heavily in favor of balance and gallade destroys most of them including pex+celesteela+clef, venusaur varients, and the one ditto team by p2. inner focus is a sleeper ability too cause you can bop stuff like lop and gren without fearing a flinch from fake out/dark pulse. mega lati kind of helps it cause gallade can just sd up on it due to its solid spdef.

 

[Felixx]

Tapu Lele: A to A+: Agree

Too be honest, I am not a big Lele fan, but I can't deny that the recent metagame trends have been in Lele's favour, the fact that Celes are now running phys def helps specs sets break past them with t-bolt on the switch and other members of the balance core like Toxapex, Tangrowth, Mantine and Mega Venu get destroyed by psychic, psychic terrain also messes with the growing in popularity Scizor and his techician bullet punch, this helps teammates like Kyurem-B and Diancie, Diancie in particular also benifits from a psychic terrain boosted psychic/psyshock which lets it break past a common check in Mega Venu. Scarf Lele is back since Dragonite>Salamence (particularly because of the resurgence of birdspam), and also because of Volc's low usage allowing for slower scarfers like Lele, Lando and Excadrill. Stallbreaker Lele is and has always been very good for its ability to break past spl and double defog stalls which are ever popular.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine in Psychic Terrain: 222-262 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 240-283 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 164-193 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (you actually don't even need to predict)

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Zygarde: A+ -> S​

Yep, I'm bring this back up.

Now, why? You may all be asking - and that is an excellent question, and at the same time the answer should be obvious. As well as meta trends that I'll bring up in a second, it REALLY doesn't take a hell of a lot for this thing to quickly become absolutely retarded during basically any game it takes part in. Let us begin:

1) 1000A Spam, and the rise in Toxic Spikes:

As for 1000A itself, I shouldn't have to go into too much detail here. The fact that it's Ground STAB that can bypass it's main immunity is what makes it frankly brainless, and basically forces the use of either Tangrowth/Bulu/Mew onto literally every possible team. Do you guys know how much of a bloody problem that is? No, seriously - the amount of times I've asked for directions on a team I've been building, only to be interrogated on 'where's your Zygarde switchin?' could probably pay for the fuel on a trip to Tokyo. I'm not exaggerating, it's been too many times to count...

It also raises the fact that all 3 get bopped by Toxic/Tspikes (another point I'll get to), Tang and Mew are too passive for offense, and Bulu - while fun to use - doesn't really have a game plan a good chunk of the time beyond 'click Wood Hammer, ask questions later'. Nevermind the fact that this thing can run about 7 sets and a jar of Branston PickleTM* . making it extremely unpredictable (ofc we knew this, but it'll come back later).

As for the problem of Tspikes (something that has once again through the likes of Toxapex (which has not long since risen) and others) - this is where the 1000A knockdown effect comes into play. As common answers that CAN come in on it (bar, say, MVenu) end up poisoned, which (no shit, edgeworth) having your Zygarde switchins crippled by Toxic status puts you in a horrific position. 'But lack of immediate power' you might say, and 'it's easily checked' you might add. Well woop-dee-bloody do! Try saying that when you're best answers lose to chip, and the fact that it can still holepunch things coming in; potentially knock something down; and then sod off for another 12 turns! Rise of Mega Latias? Well that's neither here nor there when A) you're another Dragon type, and B) you potentially end up knocked down.

Poison types? You're a ground type, which leaves TS's best removers no intensive to come or stay in. Oh, and most common defoggers (bar, say, MSciz) lose to 1000A spam. Who knew?

2) The abundance of sets it can run, unpredictability, and constraints on teambuilding:

I'm just going come out and say that the many sets it can run is, without a doubt in my mind, able to fill perfectly into any functional offensive team. CB is stupidly splashable, with coverage such as Iron Tail and Stone Edge to make things like Clefable; Volcarona and Tornadus-T think twice about settling in and catch them on the switch. The two mons that don't care about Tspikes and 1000A spam, those being (in my eyes, at least) MSciz and MVenu, lose HARD to SubDD or SubCoil sets due to their generally passive nature, and not being the largest offensive presence compared to others (in spite of their bulk). And don't even get me STARTED on DD, my bias I've been trying to keep at bay this entire post. Not to mention the different kinds of Z-moves it can run - and Dragonium being able to bust past some of, if not all, of it's conventional checks.

As for constraints on teambuilding - well, I've already mentioned how it essentially forces one of a small handful of mons onto basically EVERY playstyle. But of course there's the threat of Dugtrio we have to think about, which puts it's OWN constraints on teambuilding, and makes good Zygarde checks such as Mega Diancie less of a proposition. I'm not saying expect both on the same team, but the choke hold both force legitimately makes OU unfun for me atm.

All of this considered, I think Zygarde is more then deserving of S rank status. If this isn't fulfilled soon, then in the words of Yahtzee:
"Please tell us how you manage to breathe on Mars."

That's all I have to say for now. I'll think about the discussion slate another time, as those are things I'm thinking of using, but haven't gotten round to.

Until later
Josh.

 

[Gary]

The council is not looking to raise Zygarde to S anytime soon fwiw, just so another massive bandwagon doesn't happen again. T-Spikes have pretty much always been really good with Zygarde for the last few months now, none of that has really changed. The only thing I'd say has changed for Zygarde is Sub DD > CB in effectiveness.

Like yeah it can run CB, Sub DD, Offensive DD, and Double Dance, but all of them have overlapping checks and counters for the most part. Offensive Drago DD is like the only set that can muscle through Growth/Fat Lando-t but it's still losing to Clef and Bulu. Sub DD can stall out fat Grasses with T-spikes support but struggles more vs fat Lando-T and Clef. Double Dance can set up on stuff like fat Lando-T but can still lose to Tagrowth, Bulu, and Mew. Sub Coil is complete ass and shouldn't be used anymore because Sub DD or Double Dance are far superior. Even if you don't know what set it's running, you can pretty much check it with the same mons.

Zygarde's constraint on team building I think has been well adapted to these days. You just don't see teams auto losing to Zygarde anymore. You saw it way more often during the Metagross meta because Mew, Bulu, and Clefable were way less prevalent. Now Bulu is one of the best breakers in the tier so it's on a lot of teams, Clefable and Mew are standard on balance while Growth is still used commonly as glue as was as fat Lando-T. None of these Pokemon are forced onto teams because of Zyg itself, rather they can check Zyg on top of a bunch of other things which is why they're so splashable. In all honesty, I think the decrease in Growth usage shows just how Zyg is much less of an annoyance for team building now because people are able to just run other Pokemon to check it without needing Tangrowth nearly as much. Mega Venu was never a good Zygarde switch-in, and most teams that run Defog Mega Scizor are 100% going to be running it on some balance most likely with Clef in the back. Iron Tail is extremely bad to be locked into and doesn't do enough to OHKO Clef to where it can't just pivot out into something else and easily recover back health later. I only really like it for Bulu but than again, if you miss it basically gives it a free Sub which is really bad and oftentimes I'd run Toxic on CB because it at least lets u punish it in someway.

Once again like usual, your post fails to point out anything that's really made Zygarde any better in the metagame than we don't already know. T-spikes + Zygarde has been a well known thing for ages, and have always been really good. We know that Zygarde can run multiple sets. We know Zygarde has a move that hits Flying-types and Levitators. We know that it can run Toxic to hit mons such as Tangrowth and Mew that normally switch into it for free. Zygarde does not only have a small pool of Pokemon that are forced to be run onto teams because stuff like Clef, Mew, Bulu, Growth, and Lando-T are just good glues in general and fit on all kinds of playstyles because of their ability to check common threats. We know it can run Dragonium to break past some of its conventional checks but at the same time making it more prone to others. Literally 90% of your post is pointing out obvious things about Zygarde that anyone can figure out just by looking at its analysis. None of this has convinced myself, or anyone on the council, why Zygarde should go to S, if anything it only solidifies its position in A+ considering how very little of your post wasn't just rehashing everything we already knew.

 

[strengthofheart]

A --> A-

The last couple of months have been bad for Mega Pinsir. Webs is no longer a highly effective playstyle, decreasing its prevalence quite a bit. I haven't seen it on AV offense either (in my experience, I haven't faced much AV in general). Mainly, however, the new Megas, Ash-Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Scarf Lele ruin its day. Mega Diancie especially shits on Pinsir and takes dust from Quick Attack. Ash-Gren only has an 18.8% chance of being KOed by a +2 Quick Attack and can blow it away with Hydro Pump (or outspeed QA with Water Shuriken which does 66.4 - 79.7%). Lele circumvents QA altogether and OHKOs with a little bit of prior damage. Mega Latias is also a hard check for it:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias-Mega: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Latias can set up a Calm Mind on Pinsir and it could spell doom for your team. In my opinion, Pinsir requires much more support nowadays and doesn't belong in the A club with Bulu, a similarly strong physical wallbreaker that does a much better job supporting itself and its teammates.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

A --> A-

The last couple of months have been bad for Mega Pinsir. Webs is no longer a highly effective playstyle, decreasing its prevalence quite a bit. I haven't seen it on AV offense either (in my experience, I haven't faced much AV in general). Mainly, however, the new Megas, Ash-Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Scarf Lele ruin its day. Mega Diancie especially shits on Pinsir and takes dust from Quick Attack. Ash-Gren only has an 18.8% chance of being KOed by a +2 Quick Attack and can blow it away with Hydro Pump (or outspeed QA with Water Shuriken which does 66.4 - 79.7%). Lele circumvents QA altogether and OHKOs with a little bit of prior damage. Mega Latias is also a hard check for it:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias-Mega: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Latias can set up a Calm Mind on Pinsir and it could spell doom for your team. In my opinion, Pinsir requires much more support nowadays and doesn't belong in the A club with Bulu, a similarly strong physical wallbreaker that does a much better job supporting itself and its teammates.

How is Mega Latias a hard check if it dies to +2 Return?

+1 4 SpA Latias-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're expecting rocks to be up with this calc and +2 Return knocks it out with ease. It's a soft check. If it's already set up to +2 then Mega Latias just lost. Even if my calcs are wrong (Thanks to being a Blank set in Damage Calc) that doesn't mean it can KO. They don't typically run much Special Attack considering Mega Latias is a bulky mon.

 

[strengthofheart]

How is Mega Latias a hard check if it dies to +2 Return?

+1 4 SpA Latias-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're expecting rocks to be up with this calc and +2 Return knocks it out with ease. It's a soft check. If it's already set up to +2 then Mega Latias just lost. Even if my calcs are wrong (Thanks to being a Blank set in Damage Calc) that doesn't mean it can KO. They don't typically run much Special Attack considering Mega Latias is a bulky mon.

Latias is at 110 speed (and typically run max speed or close to it), pmuch forcing Pinsir to use Quick Attack. Lati checks in a 1v1 scenario quite easily, and normally run BoltBeam with Calm Mind, not Psychic.

+1 4 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 282-334 (104 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pretty hard check to me.

 

[Mood4food77]

it's not a hard check. It's simply a check. It is risky to switch in and Pinsir needs to have some sort of damage taken prior

It keeps Pinsir off the field and can revenge kill.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Latias is at 110 speed (and typically run max speed or close to it), pmuch forcing Pinsir to use Quick Attack. Lati checks in a 1v1 scenario quite easily, and normally run BoltBeam with Calm Mind, not Psychic.

+1 4 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 282-334 (104 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pretty hard check to me.

Ur wrong there buster brown. Sure if Latias is already in and Pinsir tries to come in then yeah Pinsir is gonna die to a thunder bolt who the hell would bring a pinsir in on Latias anyway.

But in the situation you're saying Pinsir would already be at plus 2 and Mega Latias needs a calm mind before it can Ohko. If pinsir is already in and at plus 2 it would take Latias two turns (with the exception of crits of course) to kill mega Pinsir but with ur mega Latias spread Latias dies instantly to pinsirs plus 2 return.

In other words Latias only beats Pinsir if Latias was already in or if it crits pinsir.

Oh and also if Latias comes in on a plus 2 pinsir and then dies pinsir has now killed two of ur mons.

For the calc by the way you were using 252hp 0 defence im on mobile so sorry I can't show it but take my word or do it ur self if you want to it's +2 252attack mega Pinsir vs 252 hp 0 defence Latias.

 

[strengthofheart]

Ur wrong there buster brown. Sure if Latias is already in and Pinsir tries to come in then yeah Pinsir is gonna die to a thunder bolt who the hell would bring a pinsir in on Latias anyway.

But in the situation you're saying Pinsir would already be at plus 2 and Mega Latias needs a calm mind before it can Ohko. If pinsir is already in and at plus 2 it would take Latias two turns (with the exception of crits of course) to kill mega Pinsir but with ur mega Latias spread Latias dies instantly to pinsirs plus 2 return.

In other words Latias only beats Pinsir if Latias was already in or if it crits pinsir.

Oh and also if Latias comes in on a plus 2 pinsir and then dies pinsir has now killed two of ur mons.

For the calc by the way you were using 252hp 0 defence im on mobile so sorry I can't show it but take my word or do it ur self if you want to it's +2 252attack mega Pinsir vs 252 hp 0 defence Latias.

I never said anything about switching in on a +2 Pinsir, nor will I explain the definition of "check" to you.

My reasoning was basic metagame shifts. The addition of Mega Latias (among other things) makes Pinsir a suboptimal choice compared to the mons in A right now, that's all.

 

[UltraBallz]

I never said anything about switching in on a +2 Pinsir, nor will I explain the definition of "check" to you.

My reasoning was basic metagame shifts. The addition of Mega Latias (among other things) makes Pinsir a suboptimal choice compared to the mons in A right now, that's all.

If there was a reason for Pinsir to fall it would be more because of how high celesteela usage is right now and the fact they are leaning more phys def. That being said pinsir is still ridiculous and has like literally 3 switchins in the whole tier (skarm, steela, zap). And even then zap has to worry about stone edge which has been somewhat used. I think Pinsir is one of the best breakers/cleaners in the tier still so I don't think it needs to drop and definitely not because of mega lati since that cant even switch in reliably.

 

[strengthofheart]

If there was a reason for Pinsir to fall it would be more because of how high celesteela usage is right now and the fact they are leaning more phys def. That being said pinsir is still ridiculous and has like literally 3 switchins in the whole tier (skarm, steela, zap). And even then zap has to worry about stone edge which has been somewhat used. I think Pinsir is one of the best breakers/cleaners in the tier still so I don't think it needs to drop and definitely not because of mega lati since that cant even switch in reliably.

I probably shouldn't have highlighted calcs for Mega Latias in my argument, but the big ones are the addition of Diancie and the continued rise of Koko. Pinsir needs so much support already and these shifts are reason enough for a slight drop imo.

 

[robopoke]

Mega Diancie is incredibly annoying for Mega Pinsir right now. Not only did Diancie make Sticky Webs as a playstyle less viable, where Pinsir is the staple Mega, but it outspeeds Mega Pinsir and OHKOs it with Diamond Storm easily.

Also, the Mega Latias arguments given are very poor.
A check is a mon that wins in a 1vs1 situation. Mega Latias does not 100% win against Mega Pinsir, just watch this replay because replays speak 1000 words:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7ou-623768061

Just stay regular to take two Ice Beams/Thunderbolts and kill Lati with regular +2 Frustration and +2 Aerilate Quick Attack. If Pinsir is Megaevolved however, then yes Mega Latias can check Mega Pinsir. I would not call it hard check because the combination of Frustration+Quick Attack can kill with very high rolls after Rocks, but a Soft check because it can lose with lucky rolls. Mega Diancie however, is a hard check because the only time you lose is if you miss Diamond Storm.

Conclusion: Do not use Mega Latias as a reason for a Mega Pinsir drop.
Thanks Robb576 for the replay.

 

[Tramuntana]

Speaking of that, I suppose Celesteela is the reason so many people run Substitute now on Pinsir, to block Leech Seed?
It seems like a pointless effort due to Celesteela having Flamethrower in the improbable case there is a defensive spread capable of taking Heavy Slam, but being quite obsessed with putting Substitute on everything I can, I am curious on how it works on Pinsir and for what.

 

[Colonel M]

Speaking of that, I suppose Celesteela is the reason so many people run Substitute now on Pinsir, to block Leech Seed?
It seems like a pointless effort due to Celesteela having Flamethrower in the improbable case there is a defensive spread capable of taking Heavy Slam, but being quite obsessed with putting Substitute on everything I can, I am curious on how it works on Pinsir and for what.

Substitute is used on Mega Pinsir to take advantage of Counter Skarmory. It also can be used as a shield from status effects and a deadly attack since Mega Pinsir forces a lot of switches.

 

[robopoke]

Sub helps with the Stallmatchup because some Skarmorys offensive presence is Counter/Toxic and lack Whirlwind. The only issue is Physdef Unware Clef. It is able to PPstall if you just spam Frustration. That means you have to Quick Attack on predicted Protects which will work 3-4 times easily. But after that the Stallplay might predict and Moonblast on a Quick Attack so you will lose health. You can only afford one mistake because if you take two Moonblasts you do not have enough HP for a Sub (unless you Sub on a predicted Protect) against Skarmory.

There are some ideas that will help with the Stall Matchup
1) Adamant nature to discourage Clefable from not protecting becasue Frustration just does so much more
2) Feint not for the +2 priority, but to break through the Protect from Clefable which will help 2HKOing with Frustration

Example replay (Adamant nature but without Feint) from my friend Empo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-621188469

 

[Empo]

Sub helps with the Stallmatchup because some Skarmorys offensive presence is Counter/Toxic and lack Whirlwind. The only issue is Physdef Unware Clef. It is able to PPstall if you just spam Frustration. That means you have to Quick Attack on predicted Protects which will work 3-4 times easily. But after that the Stallplay might predict and Moonblast on a Quick Attack so you will lose health. You can only afford one mistake because if you take two Moonblasts you do not have enough HP for a Sub (unless you Sub on a predicted Protect) against Skarmory.

There are some ideas that will help with the Stall Matchup
1) Adamant nature to discourage Clefable from not protecting becasue Frustration just does so much more
2) Feint not for the +2 priority, but to break through the Protect from Clefable which will help 2HKOing with Frustration

Example replay (Adamant nature but without Feint) from my friend Empo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-621188469

Agree completely, but just one small thing, my Pinsir is jolly, not adamant. I don't think adamant nature is necessary to beat stall teams, since as you can see jolly still wins. Of course adamant helps more in terms of rolls, but I think overall +Speed nature is better on Pinsir to outpace the 328 speed pkmn like charizard / volcarona / manaphy etc

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I'm not going to advocate for this mon to rise or fall atm, but it's something that has been on my mind for a little while now and I'd like to hear others' thoughts before I make my decision. That mon is Thundrus-T:

Even before the current meta trends that have come to pass (Rain, Stall, an increase in Balance etc.), I'm struggling to think why people have forgotten about this thing. I've tried this thing a little while back, and if I'm going to be frank it's a hell of a lot of fun to use. A +2 Thunderbolt (and other coverage options) coming off 145 base Sp.Atk is sometimes absurd, with GH being able to chunk off general specially-based switchins and even melt through certain resists, as shown here:

GH Calcs + others

• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 393-463 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric-Mega: 370-436 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  
• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 452-532 (112.1 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  
• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 309-364 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
  
• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 225-265 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega: 256-302 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 235-277 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Some of those I found off screen are fucking ridiculous, and shows a testament to it's wallbreaking ability that has really been slept on in recent months. I do respect why this thing is lower then the likes of Mane-M; Tapu Koko and Thundy-I, with it's speed being lower then those... well, keep in mind that A) 101 is still over the 100 base benchmark, making it at least serviceable (bar a few exceptions such as AshGren and Mega Diancie) and B) it's main set on the analysis is double dance w/ Agility, being it's main niche over it's Incarnate brethren. All of this allows it to threaten a lot of playstyles equally, such as Stall holepunching (barring Chansey in a lot of cases, but gets scared by NP) and the pleasure of not being trapped by Dugtrio, Balance (due to BoltBeam threatening a lot of their cores, such as Pex/Tang/Steela), and Offense thanks to Agility. An electric immunity in Volt Absorb is also a nice luxury to have, stopping VoltTurn as well.

However, it's not all perfect for it. Not just because of the obvs' low bulk and SR weakness, but due to other meta trends not mentioned. The main one(s) I can think of being Mega Latias and Mega Diancie. MLati being able to take a lot of it's hits comfortably (barring HP Ice) and potentially being forced to burn a +2 GH early to holepunch it (or it'll just Recover off the damage and check it with Ice Beam). Mega Diancie is a much deeper case, not only being able to check it with 110 Speed and Rock STAB, but shutting down other meta trends that would have been favorable to it, such as Webs. No, seriously - this thing under Webs was a bloody assassin.

Other parts of the current meta are weird for it. It's can be a looming presence over matches containing rain, and certain recent-ish rises such as ZardY and Suicune give it a leg to stand on. But then there's it general weakness spread; the competition with other electric types; and other recently released megas that threaten it in a lot of ways.

Again, I'm not going to ask for it to go anywhere yet. But hearing others opinions might be able to help me, as it's something that has made me curious for a while now.

 

[Gary]

So if you aren't advocating for a rise or drop, what's actually the point of that post? If you're trying to vouch for a Pokemon's success in the metagame, there's a thread called metagame discussion for that. If you're trying to give a detailed analysis about a Pokemon, the online strategy dex exists, which already talks about the Pokemon in detail. This is the "Viability Ranking Thread" afterall, not "Discuss this underrated threat and its theoretical impact on the meta". If you are merely describing a Pokemon, that basically goes against one of the rules to the viability ranking thread.

• When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.

But you aren't even nominating Thundy-t to go up so like.....huh? Is this really that hard to figure out lol.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

So if you aren't advocating for a rise or drop, what's actually the point of that post? If you're trying to vouch for a Pokemon's success in the metagame, there's a thread called metagame discussion for that. If you're trying to give a detailed analysis about a Pokemon, the online strategy dex exists, which already talks about the Pokemon in detail. This is the "Viability Ranking Thread" afterall, not "Discuss this underrated threat and its theological impact on the meta". If you are merely describing a Pokemon, that basically goes against one of the rules to the viability ranking thread.

• When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.

But you aren't even nominating Thundy-t to go up so like.....huh?

And I realize this, I'm just curious what others have to say. Asking whether I think a mon should go up or down on the VR in the meta discussion thread seems weird and contradictory to me.

Inside, yes - I am leaning towards it rising (should have made this clear, sorry), mostly for the rise in balance builds that it can threaten (above most). But the release of MLati and Mega Diancie (who have proven to be highly successful in the meta, mind you) is what makes me conflicted / not 100% with this notion, and is what makes me ask the question of 'should it, or shouldn't it rise?'.

 

[Finchinator]

And I realize this, I'm just curious what others have to say. Asking whether I think a mon should go up or down on the VR in the meta discussion thread seems weird and contradictory to me. I'm not discussing 'theological impact' (is that even a real word?), I'm just bringing to light something that I think a good chunk of people have forgotten about.

The whole point of the VR Council having discussion points is to generate discussion on Pokemon that could potentially change in rank in the near future. This is not your job, we do not ask you to post about Pokemon, and we strongly advise you stop posting until you know the proper etiquette, have a better grasp on the metagame, and can follow the forum rules fully. Otherwise, we will have to continue to take action and remove your posts. This goes for others as well, but most posters in this thread seem to understand how this thread works prior to posting.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

And I realize this, I'm just curious what others have to say. Asking whether I think a mon should go up or down on the VR in the meta discussion thread seems weird and contradictory to me. I'm not discussing 'theological impact' (is that even a real word?), I'm just bringing to light something that I think a good chunk of people have forgotten about.

Inside, yes - I am leaning towards it rising (should have made this clear, sorry), mostly for the rise in balance builds that it can threaten (above most). But the release of MLati and Mega Diancie (who have proven to be highly successful in the meta, mind you) is what makes me conflicted / not 100% with this notion, and is what makes me ask the question of 'should it, or shouldn't it rise?'.

Asking how a mon is performing in the meta discussion thread would suffice. And you could certainly mention its VR ranking in your post there. But...sure. Also lmao @ "inside I am leaning towards it rising" well damn maybe you could mention that in your initial post so you're actually nominating something, just with a few reservations.

As for Thundurus-T, I'm finding less and less and less and less and less of a reason to use this over either Koko or Zapdos considering it occupies a weird middle ground between the two. It doesn't have the power, speed, and versatility of Koko but it also doesn't have the bulk and recovery of Zapdos. Both of these already have an excellent matchup into balance lacking Mega Venusaur which Thundy-T struggles against anyway, and that's just looking at other Electric types in the tier. Literally the only niche this has is dual dance but the support required to allow this mon to ever set up is fairly substantial especially considering you can't really OHKO offensive mons with just +2 speed. I would lean toward a drop rather than a rise but lol I really don't care what happens with this mon at all

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

The whole point of the VR Council having discussion points is to generate discussion on Pokemon that could potentially change in rank in the near future. This is not your job, we do not ask you to post about Pokemon, and we strongly advise you stop posting until you know the proper etiquette, have a better grasp on the metagame, and can follow the forum rules fully. Otherwise, we will have to continue to take action and remove your posts. This goes for others as well, but most posters in this thread seem to understand how this thread works prior to posting!

Finchinator I'm not trying to 'make my own discussion points'. Again, I'm just curious what others have to say, and (as I said to Gary AGAIN) I am leaning towards it rising, but I'm not 100% on it. What part of that do you find a punishable offense? If it were, I'd be slagging someone off - not speaking my mind on the topic, and finding out other's opinions on said topic. I'm sorry if this sounds like a personal attack, but when mutuals of mods such as yourself resort to lynching and (in it's essence) censorship in the vision of QC (see the blacklisting of MBee a few pages ago) - THAT is when you force my hand.

Oh, and Scarf Nihilego

As for Thundurus-T, I'm finding less and less and less and less and less of a reason to use this over either Koko or Zapdos considering it occupies a weird middle ground between the two. It doesn't have the power, speed, and versatility of Koko but it also doesn't have the bulk and recovery of Zapdos. Both of these already have an excellent matchup into balance lacking Mega Venusaur which Thundy-T struggles against anyway, and that's just looking at other Electric types in the tier.

Um... did you even see the calcs I posted? Also, may I ask HOW you think Thundy-T has a worse MU vs balance, esp. considering Thundrus forms have more coverage then Koko/Dos combined?

 

[Gary]

Or you know, you could just be like everyone else and follow the rules and post in the metagame discussion thread. The discussion ends here, and I mean it. Stop trying to tell the OU moderators how to do their job just because you refuse to just follow the rules. No need to make a scene to try and purposely prove a point when all you're doing is burying yourself deeper and deeper into a hole.