Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

A- ---> A

B+ ---> A-

C+ ---> B-

Drops

B ---> B-

B- ---> C+

C+ ---> C

C+ ---> C

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

• Zapdos has always been an amazing defensive Pokemon in the metagame for the last few months on a wide variety of builds, be it bulky offense, balance, and stall. Its ability to check very prominent Pokemon thanks to its great defensive typing, Speed, and offensive coverage still makes it a nightmare for stuff like Celepex. On stall and even some balance, it's a great defogger for its ability to heavily pressure common Spikers such as Skarm, Ferrothorn, and non Ice Beam Greninja. It also takes a pretty big dump on the bird spam team because of its ability to check Mega Pinsir as well as outspeed Dragonite and 2HKO it with HP Ice.
• Kyurem-B has seen quite a lot of usage towards the end of WCOP as well as all throughout OLT. Its Icium Z set is capable of basically guaranteeing a kill vs most teams due to Subzero Slammer OHKOing most non resists and severely denting resists. Between its coverage moves in Earth Power in Fusion Bolt, most would be switch-ins still find themselves being heavily pressured, namely Pex, Alolomola, Suicune, and Heatran. Its ability to prey on common defensive cores such as CelePex, Clef, Mew, and Mega Venu makes it a very useful balance breaker. On top of this, it has other viable sets in LO Mixed with HP Fire to bop Mega Scizor, as well as Choice Scarf which can be a very frightening late-game cleaner.
• Hippo has seen some usage in OLT because of its ability to get up SR as well as walling a good portion of the physically offensive tier. Being able to completely wall Z Wild Charge Tapu Koko, as well as taking hits from Z Fly Lando-T, Mega Pinsir, T-tar, and Mega Lopunny. It still suffers from being very passive, but its ability to blanket check a lot of the tier while getting up SR is very useful for balance builds.
• Mega Gallade is just not that great of a pick for most teams. While its still able to break through some balance cores, the influx in Clefable really hurts it, as well as struggling to do much vs many of the HOs running around such as bird spam, Veil, and being deadweight vs stall. Mega Lopunny, Mega Medi, and Mega Heracross all give it a decent amount of competition as a Fighting-type breaker or revenge killer due to their more immediate power or higher speed respectively.
• Mega Sharpedo sees very little usage on ladder and in tours because of how awkward it is to fit onto a team. While Strong Jaws and its good coverage could allow it to potentially be a great early game breaker, it's unable to function as a late game cleaner without preserving Speed Boost until the very end. The influx in Ferrothorn as well as Mega Scizor isn't good for it either, and it's unable to break any of the stalls, or do much vs any of the HOs because of their priority or Veil.
• Primarina's niche a while back was being able to function as a less bulky, offensive version of Fini that could check the likes of Ash Gren and Pheromosa, while being very difficult to switch into. Phero has been banned for months now, and Fini's typing is no longer basically mandatory on as many teams these days. There's just not much reason to use Prim on teams anymore.
• Starmie has great coverage but can't run everything, which always leaves it walled by something. Defensive Starmie is extremely passive and is just really bad in general, and the offensive variants are very easy to wear down via Iron Barbs on Ferro and LO recoil. It's way too susceptible to residual damage, and can't really beat any of the common Spikers in the tier bar Skarmory, and it's spin blocked by Mega Sab.
• Breloom struggles to really carve itself a niche in this meta. As an offensive Grass-type it faces stiff competition from Tapu Bulu, and with Electric Terrain being super common as well as Grass-types such as Mega Venu and Ferro, its ability to put something to sleep with Spore is very limited compared to the last two gens. Without SD, it's walled by common Pokemon such as Clefable, Mega Scizor, and even Ferrothorn. Without Rock Tomb, it can't break Zapdos, and stuff like Volcarona and Zard-Y can basically switch into it for free if Spore isn't an issue. There's just very little reason to use it in the current meta.
• Buzzwole has similar issues to Breloom, albeit functionally way differently. Its defensive typing and bulk is quite useful and allows it to check some prominent top tier threats, but the biggest issues lie in its inability to run every coverage move it wants to run, as well as certain Pokemon such as Lando-T, Tapu Bulu, and Zygarde running ways to get around its walling capabilities. Without Sub, it's never doing anything vs bulkier builds because of how prone it is to hazards, without Poison Jab it's completely walled by Clefable therefore useless vs stall, without EQ it's completely walled by Pex, and without Ice Punch it has no real way of reliably checking Lando-T, Garchomp, or Zygarde.

Council Voting Slate

Tapu Lele A to A+: Split mostly down the middle
Zapdos A- to A: All in agreement
Kyurem-B: B+ to A-: All in agreement
Kartana B+ to A-: Split
Gastrodon B to B+: No one agreed
Mega Gallade B to B-: Most agreed
Excadrill B to B+: No one agreed
Mega Sharpedo B- to C+: All agreed
Hippowdon C+ to B-: All agreed
Primarina C+ to C: All agreed
Starmie C+ to C: All agreed
Breloom C to C-: Mostly everyone agreed or wanted it unranked
Buzzwole C to C-: Mostly all agreed

This will most likely be the last update before the Arena Trap suspect ends. Because of this, I don't really have a discussion slate for you guys. The meta is most likely going to change a lot if Arena Trap does get banned, so there will be a lot to discuss in the near future anyway.

 

[Gary]

And as always...

 

[smogonModsAreTrash]

Bisharp should drop to B rank.

Right now Bisharp doesn't really seem like a great pick in the current meta. The playstyle Bisharp fits best on, Webs, has died down quite a bit over the past couple of months because other HO playstyles like webs and birdspam are a lot more popular and consistent.

I disagree. Bisharp provides a solid offensive and defensive typing, offers one of the strongest Knock Offs in OU, smashes Fairies with Iron Head, and offers emergency priority to circumvent speed and force the opponent into disadvantageous 50-50s.

Bisharp is one of the best anti-meta mons in OU, and many bulky offense/balance/even stall can find use for it. It introduces actual risk for the enemy clicking defog in a way no other pokemon does, and Bisharp does extremely well against defoggers in OU. You can opt for a more bulky spread and sacrifice speed and also vary items (dark glasses to bluff a Z item or LO or my personal favorite, leftovers) which completely changes bisharp's playstyle.

In addition, Bisharp's checks and counters are still prevalent if not getting more popular. Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, (and regular Greninja too) Tapu Lele, Toxapex, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, etc, all still get good usage, and some like Hippowdon and Mega Scizor are rising in popularity, while mons like Zygarde and Toxapex have always been top Pokemon in the tier.

The issue with this argument is that Bisharp can easily come in on most hazard setters or after a pokemon has died or on a weak attack/poison/psychic move/resisted attack and set up a swords dance. Bisharp is also saved and held back in order to revenge pokemon and sweep teams that are weakened. A lot of pokemon like Greninja, Koko, and lopunny are very fragile and vulnerable to chip. Bisharp can pick off many weakened pokemon with Sucker Punch, especially at +2. With an SD or a Defiant Boost, Bisharp just rips through entire teams. If Bisharp is no longer a part of your wincon, you sack it and move on-but chances are its already come in and accomplished its job.

Scizor rarely runs superpower (BP/Roost are a must, followed by Defog and U-turn, interchangeable with SD/HP Ice/Bug Bite/Knock Off/Superpower) and does pathetic damage to Bisharp while being killed in two hits after Bisharp SDs. Bisharp wins with lefties (multiple viable spreads (HP spread, 252 neutral speed, jolly-adamant usually better, dark boosting item, z item, leftovers, LO, resist berry) even without any bulk. Skarmory just flat out loses to Bisharp and can't do anything meaningful besides whirlwind. Bisharp threatens a +2 knock off, iron head->knock off to avoid counter, or continued boosts when you figure out it has no whirlwind. Toxapex hates Knock Off and gets clobbered at +2 while doing little meaningful in return besides praying for a scald burn. I think Keldeo, Heatran, and Zyguarde are the best offensive answers (solid bulk while outspeeding/KOing) as well as Lele (immunity to sucker punch).

Even then, what do you do if Bisharp SDs and your Hippowdon is at 70% with rocks up? Most teams' go-to answer to a boosted physical attacker is to switch in Lando-T, the most splashable ground type in OU with insane role compression to only give Bisharp yet another boost. Or to send in Unaware Clef which promptly gets bodied.

I just don't think Bisharp can thrive in a metagame that's as prepared for it as right now, compared to the beginning and middles of the generation when Webs was a dominant playstyle. I don't really see any metagame trends going in favor of Bisharp either outside of Mega Latias getting released and Latios getting more popular, but in my opinion these don't really outweigh the negatives that are going against Bisharp and it doesn't seem to fit with better, more popular Pokemon like Mega Swampert, Kartana, and Mega Latias.

I honestly think you're sleeping on Bisharp. On HO teams it might not be as useful since you won't have special/physical walls or cleric support (Chansey is one of the best partners in tanking special hits for Bisharp while removing scald burns to allow for a second potential sweep), but on Balance for example Bisharp is as deadly if not more deadly due to latis being viable. Unlike Swampert/Rain offense, Bisharp basically wins you the stall matchup on its own without sacrificing a mega slot. Kartana is kind of similar in that it can boost, it can take a physical hit but folds to strong special attacks (Bisharp less so), and has steel STAB for fairies. However, the difference comes down to the utility of Knock Off/Sucker Punch vs Grass/Fighting coverage. Kartana is still hard walled by many steels that Bisharp beats and Grass types/Alowak. Bisharp beats them (besides Tang) but loses out to fighting types like Keldeo. Both lose to Zapdos though Bisharp can EV some speed to Health or take straight up 252 HP to beat Zapdos.

Bisharp allows teams to easily handle Mew, Latios/Latias, Tyranitar, Chansey, Ferrothorn, non flamethrower/blast celesteela, Clefable, Zam, Alowak, Weavile, Alolan-Ninetales, Mimikyu, MManectric, and priority Sucker Punch hits neutrally on many of the most used pokemon in OU for significant damage even when unboosted which is huge for teams running defensive checks to boosting sweepers like Volcarona that need emergency priority but can't afford to run a scarfer. Having one mon take out so many stall staples is a godsend because too many teams struggle to get past Unaware Clefable while Knock Off guarantees certain switches (mega/z item) or tremendous utility/chip

Bisharp should remain where it is. Even on non-hazard stacking teams or teams not running webs, SR is far easier to keep up because of the tremendous risk placed on the opponent for clicking defog. If you can fit it on Balance or Bulky Offense, Bisharp is an invaluable member and no other pokemon shares its capabilities.

 

[Toshiro46]

So are we just going to forget that Thundurus exists?

I disagree. Bisharp provides a solid offensive and defensive typing, offers one of the strongest Knock Offs in OU, smashes Fairies with Iron Head, and offers emergency priority to circumvent speed and force the opponent into disadvantageous 50-50s.

Bisharp is one of the best anti-meta mons in OU, and many bulky offense/balance/even stall can find use for it. It introduces actual risk for the enemy clicking defog in a way no other pokemon does, and Bisharp does extremely well against defoggers in OU. You can opt for a more bulky spread and sacrifice speed and also vary items (dark glasses to bluff a Z item or LO or my personal favorite, leftovers) which completely changes bisharp's playstyle.

thx for telling me what bisharp does. I don't see why you're pretending that any serious stall team would ever use Bisharp when Dugtrio exists and opposing hazards are rarely, if ever, an issue in the first place. Or that Bisharp's playstyle ever changes much. It's a physical breaker.

I honestly think you're sleeping on Bisharp.

I think you're biased.

On HO teams it might not be as useful

That's still where it's most useful because defiant is incredible for veil and webs teams. However, webs isn't nearly as good and it's not mandatory on veil due to A-Ninetail's ability to get it up multiple times in a match. Which is why it should fall.

Bisharp is an invaluable member and no other pokemon shares its capabilities.

...besides Thundurus.

 

[Gary]

Vertex Toshiro46 Take this to PM if you have to don't derail this thread please.

 

[Martin]

Double-checked with Gary to make sure a reply to Toshiro's post was OK before posting this and he said it was fine provided I wasn't just slinging insults.

So are we just going to forget that Thundurus exists?

Why are you comparing Bisharp to Thundurus? Having access to the same ability≠comparable, especially when one uses it well (Bisharp) and the other doesn't (Thundurus). This is a false equivalence; these two Pokemon do totally different things, and they check totally different sets of Pokemon; it's like comparing Toxapex to Specs Keldeo entirely on the basis of them sharing Water typing, granted to a less banal/exaggerated degree than said Keld/Toxapex comparison.

thx for telling me what bisharp does. I don't see why you're pretending that any serious stall team would ever use Bisharp when Dugtrio exists and opposing hazards are rarely, if ever, an issue in the first place. Or that Bisharp's playstyle ever changes much. It's a physical breaker.

How is Bisharp remotely comparable to Dugtrio? Like, I agree with you with regards to the fact that I don't agree with the notion of a stall team using it at all, but this comparison is once again completely incorrect and fails to take the roles that they would play on said teams into account. I don't see Bisharp really being used as a Pursuit trapper on any kind of team in this metagame (although I could very much be wrong on this count), but even if it were to be used on a stall team as a Pursuit trapper for whatever reason it would trap a totally different set of Pokemon to Dugtrio (namely stuff like Latios on a semistall build that aims to stack hazards), and it wouldn't even necessarily be used without Dugtrio alongside it. This is another false equivalence–and a bigger one than Thundurus.

I think you're biased.

Plays the man instead of the ball; this takes a single line out of context (one which isn't even technically a part of one of his arguments, given that it is merely a preface) and uses that to make a claim of bias in a setting where the assumption is one of a lack of bias. This point adds nothing to your argument at all, and it lacks any justification alongside it.

That's still where it's most useful because defiant is incredible for veil and webs teams. However, webs isn't nearly as good and it's not mandatory on veil due to A-Ninetail's ability to get it up multiple times in a match. Which is why it should fall.

So you take a line out of context and fail to address the points that he made in his post. In fact, he brings up an example of where it is viable beyond these types of teams later on in this same sentence; he proposes that Bisharp can be used on balance teams, and then he goes on to compare it to Kartana within the scope of balance and BO and explains where it would be used over it. He presents both a very valid point and a very valid comparison, and one which is very much informed with regards to both the nature of teambuilding in the tier and the nature of playing in the tier, and in your attempt to argue against it you fail to actually address the points he has brought up as evidence of his own.

...besides Thundurus.

*C/Ps paragraph about false equivalence*

I hope this last paragraph doesn't feel minimoddy at all, and I apologise if it comes across as such–that is not my intent at all. All in all, your post just seems knitpicky and, for the most part, fails to take the actual content of his arguments into account, instead favoring the approach of cherry-picking lines and ignoring the remainder of his post. It's all well and good to disagree with his points; this is a place for discussion, and disagreement is a natural part of discussion. However, if you are going to disagree, you need to try and take the bigger picture of his post into account instead of removing lines from their context and then proceeding to make a series of one-liners which ultimately display a lack of understanding of the points you are arguing against. Feel free to argue against points or whatever, but if you provide evidenced counterpoints within your arguments and try to ensure that your posts are putting your metagame knowledge on display as opposed to putting a childish disposition on display you will notice that the attitude of others towards your posts will improve in turn.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Its an argument cause someone brought up a drop and we are allowed to post our thoughts on said nomination. "Everyone knows what it does" is fine and all but they were discussing what it does currently in this meta. Saying it gets killed by every super effective attack is purposfully disregarding what it actually does; forcing very specific counterplay since most offensive switches dont like knock off or are crushed by +2 sucker after chip (offensive lando, keldeo, diancie, or extremely passive mons that
also dont like knock off or have to fish for scald burns or leechtech / counter spam (thapex, ferro, skarm.) It also discourages defog, which wether you consider that very benefitial or not, is a unique niche.

Its pursuit trapping abilities are extremely negligable tbh so i dont think thats a particularly strong arguement for it, but again, isnt a downside. If they want its honestly fine, its in a weird place rn. Wondering why we're talking about Bisharp when it was specifically nominated then discussed pretty thoroughly just seems odd and doesnt add to anything.

 

[Reviloja753]

Quick question- Why is Heatran still in A+? I don't wanna make an actual nom til I know WHY its in A+ right now to begin with, but a part of me is telling me that Heatran should go down to A. plz help

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Heatran is mainly ranked that high because of its substitute set. How it works is that Since heatran walls
so many Pokémon, it takes advantage of that with magma storm to trap the Pokémon that switches in, and stall it out with magma storm damage, substitute, and taunt. This means there's not much reliable ways to deal with it other than forcing it out with a offensive lando or something.

 

[Divine Retribution]

No way in hell should Heatran drop to A, least of all now for obvious reasons that I will not state. This mon is still one of the best mons in the meta even with Dugtrio lurking around every corner, and the sheer amount of shit it checks while being extremely difficult to switch into without losing momentum due to Magma Storm means that it is easily worthy of its A+ rank.

Seriously, at least watch some higher ladder/tour games or something before trying to nom down one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Thanks.

 

[Felixx]

Quick question- Why is Heatran still in A+? I don't wanna make an actual nom til I know WHY its in A+ right now to begin with, but a part of me is telling me that Heatran should go down to A. plz help

Heatran is A+ for its amazing typing, rendering it immune to burns and poison alike, this typing plus magma storm's trapping power allows it to check the likes of Latios, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Toxapex before they started running shed shell, dual dance Magearna, non earth power Mew, Zapdos, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Chansey etc (Because of Magma storms trapping + toxic + taunt [some run taunt], Heatran is also a splashable stallbreaker, a few of the mons listed above are stall staples.)

Its most popular set is Sub, which bypasses dugtrios bullshit trapping which helps its matchup as a stallbreaker.

 

[NG Spencer]

Basically heatran is a+ rank for its amazing typing which allows it to switch into varios threats in the metagame such as celesteela, non eq venusaur, ferrothorn, latios, lele and others. It is easy to fit on a team and can run various different sets thanks to its impressive movepool consisting of magma storm, earth power, hp ice and electric, stealth rocks, taunt, toxic, substitute, roar, protect, lava plume. If you have questions in the future about what makes a mon good, the ou room on showdown would be a good place to ask.

Anyway, time for a nom of my own: Amoonguss b+ -> b/b- (probably b since dropping it 2 ranks seems a bit much, but whatever the council feels is best)

This mon is like gliscor in that it faces competition from other mons that share its typing that ultimately do its job better. While both amoonguss and gliscor can definitely be used successfully, like that olt team with sd/eq/knock/taunt gliscor, that doesn't mean that it is good in the meta as it is hard to justify using over its competiton. Amoonguss has this problem as other grasses such as ferrothorn, venusaur, bulu and tangrowth generally do the job of being a bulky grass type better thanks to their greater versatility and offensive presence, with each offering their own perks. Bulu fits well on offense as a breaker that checks otherwise threatening mons, tangrowth is a solid pivot on bo, venusaur is a key part of balance, and ferrothorn functions well on most teams bar ho and stall. Speaking of stall, amoonguss lost its slot on stall thanks to toxapex who fulfills the role of an anti setup mon better with haze than amoonguss did with clear smog. The prevelance of venusaur in the meta for the past month or two is one of the main reasons amoonguss should drop as it is probably the mon that gives it the most competition seeing as they have the exact same typing, unlike ferro, bulu and tang. Venusaur is faster, actually has an offensive presence, has greater bulk and a more versatile movepool. Even when I opt for mega latias over venusaur on balance, amoonguss is not the goto grass type, but rather tangrowth or ferrothorn. As for recent meta trends that go against it, kyub and lele, two mons that saw a lot of usage during olt, easily break through it, koko, who sees more usage thanks to its z wild charge set, brings electric terrain which prevents amoonguss from guaranteed putting a mon to sleep, its biggest niche over the other grass types, and birdspam becoming a popularized as a form of hyper offense does it no favors. This mon has fallen from its grace in oras and should have dropped a long time ago, like theres just no way its as good as suicune in the current meta.

 

[GnuGnu]

I know we should probably wait til the dugtrio suspect is over to make more nominations but I feel there are at least a couple that are relevant at the moment.

Mega Gyarados C+ --> B- (or higher)

C+ is way too low for this mon that features on so many teams right now. Bulkier teams can really struggle with this thing, and with just a little bit of support, it has a great matchup against stall (stall basically has to fish for scald burns). I could say more but I think this one is self explanatory. It's on many common HO teams at the moment and it had a TON of usage and success during the last couple rounds of OLT. It needs to rise.

Victini C- --> C

Z-Celebrate Victini is surprisingly good and has a lot of really nice matchups against a lot of teams. It doesn't hit that hard but it's quite hard to revenge kill because basically nothing can OHKO it after a boost, and it's not that hard to keep it healthy if you're running lead Excadrill (which is everyone). Common spammed pokemon like Toxapex, Celesteela, Mega-Venusaur, Heatran etc get blown away. Its always paired with Tapu Lele too for psychic-terra boosted Stored Power, which allows you get to some extra KOs against bulkier stuff like Garchomp. Again, it's gotten a lot of use recently and not many teams are adequately prepared for it right now. Pretty sure i've seen this more than the entire C rank; honestly I think it deserves at least C+ but it definitely deserves to rise to C

 

[TimG57867]

Can confirm that Z-Celebrate Victini can make for a decent win-con when the stage is set and you're back is to the corner. Yesterday I was browsing Ou +1300 replays and stumbled on this.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-627232690

In the game, between Veil, Freeze Hax, and some misplays the ironically named player found themselves in quite a hole to dig out of with Victini and Kartana staring down a Mega Charizard X. Then out of nowhere, he whoops out the Z-Celebrate and breezes through with Stored Power. It does seem a bit gimmicky but it seems like it could catch many teams off guard due to Victini being a heavy sleeper at the moment. In a meta without Dugtrio and its Scarf sets, it could make for an interesting cleaner once the Pokemon that resist its STAB and coverage of choice are dealt with. Seems about as good as Z-Conversion Porygon Z at least which is currently C.

Too bad the Mega Gyarados didn't put in as much work.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

I don't think it's appropriate to discuss a Dugtrio-less meta until it's gone. We have no clue what the new meta would look like - maybe other threats will make Victini worse. And while the surprise factor is nice, that alone shouldn't justify a rank increase. We wouldn't rank Truant Durant or FEAR Aron, even though they can sweep players who don't know how to beat them. Finally, what can this Victini set do that Z-Psychic Volc can't?

 

[Leo]

I don't think it's appropriate to discuss a Dugtrio-less meta until it's gone. We have no clue what the new meta would look like - maybe other threats will make Victini worse. And while the surprise factor is nice, that alone shouldn't justify a rank increase. We wouldn't rank Truant Durant or FEAR Aron, even though they can sweep players who don't know how to beat them. Finally, what can this Victini set do that Z-Psychic Volc can't?

There's a big difference between niche strategies with absolutely no place in the meta outside of low ladder trolling like lv1 Aron and Entrainment Durant and actually viable sweepers with a niche in the meta. Victini does have its own draws which differentiate it from Volcarona and can even a bigger threat to teams prepared for Volcarona. First of all, it has Psychic as its secondary typing as opposed to Bug, which means that it can't be revenge killed by some dedicated Volcarona checks like Scarf Greninja and Quick Attack Mega Pinsir. On top of this, the defensive boost combined with its good natural bulk lets it avoid some Scarfers like Garchomp and Keldeo, both of which can't ohko it from full with their stab moves. While Victini may not have the offensive versatility that Volcarona possesses, it has the tools to bypass some of its soft checks like Toxapex, Tyranitar, Mantine, and Heatran, which turns it into a deadly wincon against teams that rely on a combination of these mons to check it. It's a niche sweeper that doesn't require as much support as Volcarona (Defog is nice but it can afford to set up w rocks up if it doesnt need to live any hit to sweep) and can tear apart teams prepared for Volcarona.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

I'm gonna respond in bold, this was a well thought out post!

I disagree. Bisharp provides a solid offensive and defensive typing, offers one of the strongest Knock Offs in OU, smashes Fairies with Iron Head, and offers emergency priority to circumvent speed and force the opponent into disadvantageous 50-50s.
We know this already. Tell us why recent changes aren't harmful for it.
Bisharp is one of the best anti-meta mons in OU, and many bulky offense/balance/even stall can find use for it. It introduces actual risk for the enemy clicking defog in a way no other pokemon does, and Bisharp does extremely well against defoggers in OU. You can opt for a more bulky spread and sacrifice speed and also vary items (dark glasses to bluff a Z item or LO or my personal favorite, leftovers) which completely changes bisharp's playstyle.
I've personally never seen Lefties, but a bulkier spread on something that's just still pretty frail nonetheless doesn't sound too great to me, especially with Dark/Steel not being too great a defensive typing this gen. A somewhat frail Steel that doesn't resist fairy and doesn't have any of the fighting, ground or fire weakness circumvented does not sound like it can provide what a steel should defensively.

The issue with this argument is that Bisharp can easily come in on most hazard setters or after a pokemon has died or on a weak attack/poison/psychic move/resisted attack and set up a swords dance. Bisharp is also saved and held back in order to revenge pokemon and sweep teams that are weakened. A lot of pokemon like Greninja, Koko, and lopunny are very fragile and vulnerable to chip. Bisharp can pick off many weakened pokemon with Sucker Punch, especially at +2. With an SD or a Defiant Boost, Bisharp just rips through entire teams. If Bisharp is no longer a part of your wincon, you sack it and move on-but chances are its already come in and accomplished its job.

Most users of Psychic moves carry super-effective coverage to hit it. Unless you can find out that the opposing Lele is choice-locked - which oftentimes requires a sack, it's not a reliable answer to it. As for poison moves, those are super rare in this meta. I've seen Mega Venu, Greninja and the occasional Garchomp run them.
Scizor rarely runs superpower (BP/Roost are a must, followed by Defog and U-turn, interchangeable with SD/HP Ice/Bug Bite/Knock Off/Superpower) and does pathetic damage to Bisharp while being killed in two hits after Bisharp SDs. Bisharp wins with lefties (multiple viable spreads (HP spread, 252 neutral speed, jolly-adamant usually better, dark boosting item, z item, leftovers, LO, resist berry) even without any bulk. Skarmory just flat out loses to Bisharp and can't do anything meaningful besides whirlwind. Bisharp threatens a +2 knock off, iron head->knock off to avoid counter, or continued boosts when you figure out it has no whirlwind. Toxapex hates Knock Off and gets clobbered at +2 while doing little meaningful in return besides praying for a scald burn. I think Keldeo, Heatran, and Zyguarde are the best offensive answers (solid bulk while outspeeding/KOing) as well as Lele (immunity to sucker punch).
U-turn does a hefty number:
0 Atk Scizor-Mega U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 108-127 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Roost can also be used to play around Sucker. This is a 50-50, yes, but it still has a fair chance of Bisharp's side losing the momentum. If you SD on the U-Turn, you lose. If you Sucker on the roost, you lose. Toxapex has Haze + Recover to stop Sharp, and Scald is still a fair way to cripple it. Bisharp can win but only if it can play around Haze, which can be tough to do if the Pex player predicts well.
Even then, what do you do if Bisharp SDs and your Hippowdon is at 70% with rocks up? Most teams' go-to answer to a boosted physical attacker is to switch in Lando-T, the most splashable ground type in OU with insane role compression to only give Bisharp yet another boost. Or to send in Unaware Clef which promptly gets bodied.
I've seen many teams use Pex as the answer, which, as I said, wins.

I honestly think you're sleeping on Bisharp. On HO teams it might not be as useful since you won't have special/physical walls or cleric support (Chansey is one of the best partners in tanking special hits for Bisharp while removing scald burns to allow for a second potential sweep), but on Balance for example Bisharp is as deadly if not more deadly due to latis being viable. Unlike Swampert/Rain offense, Bisharp basically wins you the stall matchup on its own without sacrificing a mega slot. Kartana is kind of similar in that it can boost, it can take a physical hit but folds to strong special attacks (Bisharp less so), and has steel STAB for fairies. However, the difference comes down to the utility of Knock Off/Sucker Punch vs Grass/Fighting coverage. Kartana is still hard walled by many steels that Bisharp beats and Grass types/Alowak. Bisharp beats them (besides Tang) but loses out to fighting types like Keldeo. Both lose to Zapdos though Bisharp can EV some speed to Health or take straight up 252 HP to beat Zapdos.
It doesn't break past stall guaranteed. Toxapex, as I said, I still a very solid answer to it. In addition, running 252 HP leaves bisharp extremely slow and unable to outspeed Skarm, which can proceed to roost away any damage.
Bisharp allows teams to easily handle Mew, Latios/Latias, Tyranitar, Chansey, Ferrothorn, non flamethrower/blast celesteela, Clefable, Zam, Alowak, Weavile, Alolan-Ninetales, Mimikyu, MManectric, and priority Sucker Punch hits neutrally on many of the most used pokemon in OU for significant damage even when unboosted which is huge for teams running defensive checks to boosting sweepers like Volcarona that need emergency priority but can't afford to run a scarfer. Having one mon take out so many stall staples is a godsend because too many teams struggle to get past Unaware Clefable while Knock Off guarantees certain switches (mega/z item) or tremendous utility/chip
Of these:
-It's a shaky check to Mew, as the Mew player can predict Bisharp coming in from a mile away and wisp.
-Unlike most steels, Bisharp is really shaky against T-Tar too as it carries EQ.
-I've never, ever seen a Celesteela without a Fire move that doesn't at least carry a Ground move.
-Alolatales is falling off pretty badly but even then I've seen it carry HP Fire so Bisharp isn't winning there.
-Manectric-Mega is very niche rn. Not too relevant anymore.
Bisharp should remain where it is. Even on non-hazard stacking teams or teams not running webs, SR is far easier to keep up because of the tremendous risk placed on the opponent for clicking defog. If you can fit it on Balance or Bulky Offense, Bisharp is an invaluable member and no other pokemon shares its capabilities.

Overall, you're not looking at metagame trends. Balance/stall would be good for it but as I pointed out, many common things on these teams beat it (in addition to Pex and Zap, Mega Venu can defeat one). A lot of what you said loses in fact wins. DD Zygarde rising (I've noticed it rising and the CB set falling off, which means that Zygarde can more easily play around Bisharp atm), rain, Fighting-types (Lopunny and Lucha in particular), Lele, Birdspam, Kyurem-Black, and Heatran rising are all really, really bad for it, while Webs falling off just makes things so much worse. Even if Arena Trap gets banned - Dugtrio is one of the main reasons it should drop if it stays - it still has no place in B+ with Kartana, Mega Pert, Lopunny or Torn-T. Drop Bisharp to B.

In addition, I'd like to make another nom - Mega Zam to B. Psychic spam hasn't been good for months now, and Lele is just better as an breaker. Birdspam is not a favorable matchup as there's tons and tons of priority. Pex/Celes/Tox laughs at its attempts to break Celes. There's much more competition for the Mega slot and as a Psychic nowadays, as Latias-Mega does much better vs balance/stall, is much bulkier and can provide more utility, in addition to Latios being a better breaker as well.

 

[Photofluid]

I'm gonna respond in bold, this was a well thought out post!

Overall, you're not looking at metagame trends. Balance/stall would be good for it but as I pointed out, many common things on these teams beat it (in addition to Pex and Zap, Mega Venu can defeat one). A lot of what you said loses in fact wins. DD Zygarde rising (I've noticed it rising and the CB set falling off, which means that Zygarde can more easily play around Bisharp atm), rain, Fighting-types (Lopunny and Lucha in particular), Lele, Birdspam, Kyurem-Black, and Heatran rising are all really, really bad for it, while Webs falling off just makes things so much worse. Even if Arena Trap gets banned - Dugtrio is one of the main reasons it should drop if it stays - it still has no place in B+ with Kartana, Mega Pert, Lopunny or Torn-T. Drop Bisharp to B.

Wait, are you sure you are not just spamming all kinda of the meta trends and call it "really, really bad for XXX"? Kyurem-B could hardly switch in, and if it does it blows through anything imaginable anyway. Lele is deterred from clicking its choiced psych STAB. You are making sweeping statements that are anything but self-evident, without really backing them up at all.

And in general, baring Fighting-types, many of the "unfavorable trends" you mentioned all have a common problem that none of those pokemon really wants switch into Bisharp anyway. Knock off still hits most of the meta like a truck and drops their item, while the few things that usually tanks a knock off comfortably have to respect Iron Head(the few time when it is actually positive to be an offensive steel). And even at the most dire matchup, it still has one of the most powerful priority in the game. None of those really changed all that much with the meta.

Lastly, while it is easy to acknowledge that Bisharp is not the best among B+. Kartana and Lopunny are both mons that are receiving A- nominations. So being slightly worse than them(if at all) is hardly a shame or anything. Meanwhile, Bisharp excels in quite a few matchups and is never a deadweight in any other. This quality imo really sets it comfortably apart from the mons in B which are far less consistent.

 

[Yasuo]

I would like to nominate Azelf for a rise to C+

Bird Spam is on the rise again, and Azelf is one of the Bird Spam members since Gen 6 beside Pinsir, Manaphy and Dragonite and Excadrill. I think a pokemon that kinda represents a playstyle shouldn't be as low as C-Rank. Sure, Azelf isn't as important as Smeargle on Webs or Ninetales-A on Veil, but being the first choice of rock setter of flying spam should be rewarded with a small rise considering the huge popularity of Bird Spam these days. Proof: Manaphy and Dragonite went from BL to OU and Azelf itself missed the cut by a small margin. So Bird Spam is more common than Webs atm
After getting Rocks Up, Azelf only functions as a death fodder or it explodes which clearly hurts it's viability

Sure, Azelf isn't a mandatory on Bird Spam but it is the most common lead of the playstyle and could be rewarded with a small rise to C+ considering the huge popularity of Bird Spam

 

[SamHPL]

I know it's suspect time, but I'm making two nominations just to see what people think about it:

A- -> A: being one of the best walls in the tier and being almost a staple on stall teams, Chansey usually is ranked B+ or A-. In the current meta, however, we've seen an incresed number of Chansey Offense and specially Chansey Balance teams, which have been able to incorporate Chansey's almost unparelleled utility while being able to deal with the loss of momentum it might cause. If you've watched OLT ladder games, you've probably seen a lot these kind of teams, but here are some examples:
- p2's Ditto team: it features Stealth Rock and Healing Wish Chansey, and was used to great sucess during OLT.
- Sabella's Pinsir team: it uses Rocks + T-Wave Chansey, a pretty solid team used by Sabella himself to qualify for OLT Cycle 4.
- Sabella's Ditto + M-Medi team: I don't have the team, but it was used by meeps to qualify and was one of the Cycle 2 Noatable Teams.
- Zuchtrest's Hoopa-U + Lele team: uses standard Toxic Rocks Chansey, Zuchtrest qualified using the team.
SM is a meta full of threats and that's a reason why Chansey manages to fit in more easily on teams: it brings massive role compression, dealing with Ash-Gren, most Protean Grens, Zard-Y (Duggy aside), special Tapu Koko (like Specs), Diancie-M, Latias-M, Magearna (not Pain Split, which is rare), Volcarona and even taking Zygarde's banded Thousand-A if necessary. For all of this, I feel like like Chansey is a A rank contender.

B -> B+: Mimikyu is almost a staple on HO teams. There are many examples: Sabella's and Empo's Birdspam, Empo's HO, Gondra's Victini HO, xtra's HO, etc.
Mimikyu may lack the speed or the power that would make it a truly exceptional mon, but the combination of its amazing ability and typing, good movepool and decents stats make it a pretty fearsome sweeper, Adamant Life Orb or Ghostium Z hit very hard. Not only that, but Mimikyu is extremely useful as a fail-safe to sweepers, a very welcome feature for HO teams. Mimikyu has also been used outside of this archetype: Mael's Hydreigon team, used by OLT qualifier Alexander, features Mimikyu, for example. Seeing how prevalent HO is right now, and how important Mimikyu is for this playstyle, but also considering its prowesses in other teams, I feel like Mimikyu may deserve a rise.

 

[Leo]

I would like to nominate Azelf for a rise to C+

Bird Spam is on the rise again, and Azelf is one of the Bird Spam members since Gen 6 beside Pinsir, Manaphy and Dragonite and Excadrill. I think a pokemon that kinda represents a playstyle shouldn't be as low as C-Rank. Sure, Azelf isn't as important as Smeargle on Webs or Ninetales-A on Veil, but being the first choice of rock setter of flying spam should be rewarded with a small rise considering the huge popularity of Bird Spam these days. Proof: Manaphy and Dragonite went from BL to OU and Azelf itself missed the cut by a small margin. So Bird Spam is more common than Webs atm
After getting Rocks Up, Azelf only functions as a death fodder or it explodes which clearly hurts it's viability

Sure, Azelf isn't a mandatory on Bird Spam but it is the most common lead of the playstyle and could be rewarded with a small rise to C+ considering the huge popularity of Bird Spam

I think Azelf is fine where it is. Birdspam reached its peak during the first couple of OLT cycles but was quickly replaced by other HOs like Kantos's and xtra's teams in the later cycles because of their effectiveness. Even in the second cycle Azelf birdspam was replaced by Empo's version of it with sash Exca and CM Magearna. At the moment I don't think it's that relevant anymore and if anything this offense period on the ladder should be more appealing for Excadrill rising rather than Azelf, though I think it's fine where it is rn.

 

[power]

Just have a few nominations

A- -> B+

Skarmory is basically mandatory on stall, and almost never used outside of stall. With Dugtrio's banning, stall took a heavy hit, and therefore it's not surprising to expect everyone's favorite metal bird to drop.

A -> A+

Tapu Lele was an absolute menace on the suspect ladder, smashing through every variety of team with powerful Specs, Fightinium, or even the rare Mind Plate sets. Sets like Specs Thunderbolt were rare but incredibly deadly to standard balance teams, and more offensive teams struggled alike. Looking at some of the common Koko+Kyurem-B+Scizor+Lando builds, they tend to be torn apart by specs Lele, seeing as Psychic 2HKOs Pokemon like Latios easily. Even Scizor with Special Defense investment (128 SpD) are 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. But you know this already. What's changed for Lele is 1) Dugtrio leaving, meaning fat teams cannot trap and eliminate Tapu Lele as easily (even the rare builds with pursuit trappers still need to win a 50/50 with Weavile and 2), Celesteela switching to a more Physically Defensive Spread, letting Lele rampage over balance that much more easily.

A- -> B+
Not related to Dugtrio, but MegaTar has shifted to a niche sweeper rather than a quite good one as it was near its release. Mega Lopunny's release was obviously annoying, but several other factors like the rise of Scizor and Toxic Spikes since then mean that it's no longer as effective as it was when it was placed in A- originally. Tyranitar simply struggles to set up as easily as it used to.

A -> A-

Garchomp fell off really hard these last few months. We've all heard about how Scarf is ridiculously easy to take advantage of, so I just wanted to quickly justify why I believe Swords Dance should not keep it in A. Dragonium's fun and breaks Landorus-T, but it's become so well known that its trivial to pivot around now (Like going into Tapu Koko so you can get a free Specs Dazzling Gleam off). Tapu Koko running Specs means that Garchomp actually fears the OHKO, and is forced out. Clefables immense popularity at the moment (one of the top 5 most used mons on ladder) means that Life Orb barely breaks it and dragonium does not, and the rise of Physically defensive celesteela means that garchomp needs to run a fire move badly, which means garchomp cannot provide its team support with stealth rock. Mega Latias's release is a huge damper too, and cores such as clefable + Mega Latias are incredibly difficult for Garchomp to break. Overall Power Creep and defensive creep has just caught up with this mon.

Edit: Don't really have any nominations for Heatran or Toxapex, but they're amazing at the moment and while I doubt they belong in S, seeing them there wouldn't be surprising. Firium Taunt Toxic Tran has no counters on fat teams at all.

 

[Charmflash]

A+ --> S

Since duggy has been catapulted out of the OU universe this sexy mofo is now phenomenal. You can destroy absolutely everything in the tier bar rest goodra and dont have a single bad matchup besides like rain which can be fixed easily by teammates such as Mantine or/and some Grass type which u wanna be running anyways. SpD is also a set now and while not S tier material it further helps magmatran's viability because ur opponent wont know what the fuck ur doing.

B --> A-

SpD Jirachi is a god tier lele answer that is a phenomenal wishpasser which can spread para or get em up. This cant even get trapped by real pokemon anymore as duggy's gone and ttar doesnt utilize Choice Scarf anymore so u can simply speed creep up to Megatar and flinch his ass down. Weavile is kinda relevant but even then its a 50/50. The only downside I can think of is that Jirachi doesnt pressure opposing Stealth Rock users that well but hey u cant have it all (either Defog or being fine with trading at most times can help this).

EDIT2: I forgot to mention this but Jirachi is also one of the better Kyurem-Black checks and while double LO epower 2hko's sometimes even through 2 rounds of lefties recovery after rocks putting the yellow color on this helps tremendously.

EDIT: dont wanna make another post so here's my answer to sedertz:

Just have a few nominations

A- -> B+

Skarmory is basically mandatory on stall, and almost never used outside of stall. With Dugtrio's banning, stall took a heavy hit, and therefore it's not surprising to expect everyone's favorite metal bird to drop.

A -> A+

Tapu Lele was an absolute menace on the suspect ladder, smashing through every variety of team with powerful Specs, Fightinium, or even the rare Mind Plate sets. Sets like Specs Thunderbolt were rare but incredibly deadly to standard balance teams, and more offensive teams struggled alike. Looking at some of the common Koko+Kyurem-B+Scizor+Lando builds, they tend to be torn apart by specs Lele, seeing as Psychic 2HKOs Pokemon like Latios easily. Even Scizor with Special Defense investment (128 SpD) are 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. But you know this already. What's changed for Lele is 1) Dugtrio leaving, meaning fat teams cannot trap and eliminate Tapu Lele as easily (even the rare builds with pursuit trappers still need to win a 50/50 with Weavile and 2), Celesteela switching to a more Physically Defensive Spread, letting Lele rampage over balance that much more easily.

A- -> B+
Not related to Dugtrio, but MegaTar has shifted to a niche sweeper rather than a quite good one as it was near its release. Mega Lopunny's release was obviously annoying, but several other factors like the rise of Scizor and Toxic Spikes since then mean that it's no longer as effective as it was when it was placed in A- originally. Tyranitar simply struggles to set up as easily as it used to.

A -> A-

Garchomp fell off really hard these last few months. We've all heard about how Scarf is ridiculously easy to take advantage of, so I just wanted to quickly justify why I believe Swords Dance should not keep it in A. Dragonium's fun and breaks Landorus-T, but it's become so well known that its trivial to pivot around now (Like going into Tapu Koko so you can get a free Specs Dazzling Gleam off). Tapu Koko running Specs means that Garchomp actually fears the OHKO, and is forced out. Clefables immense popularity at the moment (one of the top 5 most used mons on ladder) means that Life Orb barely breaks it and dragonium does not, and the rise of Physically defensive celesteela means that garchomp needs to run a fire move badly, which means garchomp cannot provide its team support with stealth rock. Mega Latias's release is a huge damper too, and cores such as clefable + Mega Latias are incredibly difficult for Garchomp to break. Overall Power Creep and defensive creep has just caught up with this mon.

Edit: Don't really have any nominations for Heatran or Toxapex, but they're amazing at the moment and while I doubt they belong in S, seeing them there wouldn't be surprising. Firium Taunt Toxic Tran has no counters on fat teams at all.

A- --> B+

Yes, exactly what u said.

A --> A+

I also agree with this one. Lele is crazy good and can pressure offensive teams with scarf like crazy but the new changes of ppl trying stuff like kyurem and passive stuff that doesnt rly do much and doesnt resist it like hippo clef + duggy leaving and celesteela being more on the physdef side all plays into this being stronger that before.

A- --> B+

MegaTar definitly got worse as ppl started adapting to its Edge/Fire/Ice set and it kind of has 4mss now. Toxapex being phenomenal and setting up tspikes is also quite annoying but the main problem to me is that ppl are expecting it now and playing around dragon dance. Also veil got worse which was a place where megatar could shine previously.

A --> A-

Only one I disagree with. SD Rocks is, while hard to play, definitly A tier. The point u mentioned that it can get outplayed is kind of similar to Tapu Koko's Z-Wild Charge problem and that didnt stop it from being a savage. The thing u are underplaying is that while u can definitly go into your Mawile/Magearna/Koko you are risking getting outplayed yourself. EQ'ing Landorus is a very valid play as you even get another shot at getting a kill if you get it wrong since u take HP Ice. This monster brings phenomenal breaking potential vs Balance as well as defensive utility (fucking sick fire resist, Heatran, situational ZardY Switch which should run FB now in theory and situational Volc switch-in which should run hp ground now in theory, rough skin) and has a good speed tier as well outspeeding like Medicham Mew etc.

Some other remarks that I dont feel like putting into sentences: MG clef doesnt even counter, it counterleads sash drill HARD due to ability rocks and outspeed, it has a chance to beat celesteela with merely Z-Outrage if it switches into you;

Overall I believe Very solid breaker + defensive utility + good speed + Stealth Rock on the same set should stay A

 

[Gary]

Just a warning, don't start nomming everything up solely on the grounds that it was previously trapped by Dugtrio. Some Pokemon like Lele and Heatran are obviously going to get better because Dugtrio kept them from heavily pressuring stall oriented teams for example, while something like Zard-Y depended a lot on Duggy support to break through non Shed Shell Pex balances.

Like there's nothing wrong with nomming something up because it's gotten significantly better with it no longer having to worry about being trapped, but nomming a defensive Lele check up two ranks because of Dugtrio ban, is just not at all reasonable lol. Don't start a trend.

 

[cityscapes]

heatran to s: disagree

really the only thing that's changed for this guy is the arena trap ban. while i do agree that this is really good for it, it just doesn't exactly feel like an s mon to me. ceding momentum to dangerous breakers like z move lando, trash gren, and hoopa u can be really bad for it, and the sub set's stall matchup isn't as good as people are making it out to be because it gets worn down too quickly by chansey's seismic toss (especially with no leftovers) and chansey can just stall out magma storm turns with soft boiled.

really in my opinion the arena trap ban has made it into the a+ mon it was before everyone started spamming dug on every other team. it's a very good mon but i don't think it's one worthy of s rank. thanks