Metagame SM PU Alpha (playable on PS!)

[Deleted User 350996]

Hey guys,
opinions on this ?

Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electric Terrain
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast / HP Ice / Grass Knot

Electric terrain improve Raichu stab and double its speed, so I'd run Modest with LO to hit the hardest possible.
The coverage is fine (and classic, in fact).

A Modest Raichu reaches 319 speed, I think it's enough by far to set the Electric terrain.

However, the NP set is probably better overall :/

 

[The Elder Dragon]

If this isn't out of place, I'd like to spotlight a certain Gen 7 NFE in particular: Hakomo-o.

Its bases aren't anything to write home about, but it has an excellent ability in Bulletproof. It also has an excellent typing that enables it to take on many threats currently in the tier. Whether or not this will change I'm not sure, but PU does love its fighting-types, and a fighting-type that resists fire and grass is most likely going to be quite well received. Here are the sets I managed to make concepts out of:

Hakamo-o @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sky Uppercut
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
- Rock Slide

This set is built to clean up weakened teams. Rather than cleaning up previously wall-broken teams, like something like Swoobat or Floatzel would, this set would be capable (if not eager) of cleaning teams with a few walls intact. It should be noted Fraxure is probably better at cleaning altogether, but Hakamo-o has the ability Bulletproof and resistances to Rock and Dark, and as such, would be able to find more set up opportunities. For example: Fraxure would never dare try to set up Dragon Dance on Cacturne, but Hakomo-o doesn't take too much from Dark Pulse, and takes even less from Sucker Punch.

Hakamo-o @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 76 HP/ 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Psychic/Hidden Power Ground
- Rest/Taunt/Draco Meteor
- Sleep Talk/Roar/Taunt

While the Dragon Dance set is built to clean up, this set might be handy for the rather specific but still useful role of fending off specific threats to slower teams, such as Cacturne, Seviper, and (if used carefully) Monferno and Combusken. The given EV spread speed creeps Cacturne while offering as much power as one can cram in. Just remember that if you're not running RestTalk you'll be hard pressed to do it multiple times.

Yeah, so Hakomo-o will probably be notable. Sorry if I prattled on a bit too far.

 

[The Elder Dragon]

I think murkrow would be best replacement for Flying type attacker,İf dodrio leaves.

Personally, I think you're right, but without Dodrio another neat flying-type wallbreaker would be Chatot.

 

[amber lamps]

Personally, I think you're right, but without Dodrio another neat flying-type wallbreaker would be Chatot.

and I'd also add Toucannon on the list, considering its strong base atk and good coverage, assuming its not too op to stay here.

 

[The Elder Dragon]

I feel I have made a fairly accurate list of what our gains/losses will be for gen 7 PU (not final ofc)
Gain:

Crabominable

Fletchinder

Gumshoos

Lurantis

Lycanroc-Midnight

Komala

Oricorio (all but sensu)

Oranguru

Primeape

Pyukumuku

Silvallly (Poison / Bug / Ice / Fire type)

Togedemaru

Toucannon

Wishiwashi

Dugtrio-A

Persian-A

Raticate-A

Sandslash-A

All Gen 7 NFE/LC mons

Lose:

Dodrio

Pelipper

Probably not the most accurate thing though, that is why its a speculation thread though.

A reminder: Because its gen 7 PU, Bl4 mons are now considered PU and imo can be used in "speculation PU." These mons include:

Carracosta

Exeggutor

Linoone

Machoke

Musharna

Throh

Victreebel

Vigoroth


Discussion points: Gigalith (loss), Vanilluxe (loss)

Some of the Pokemon you listed would be gained seem unlikely to me. Here's why:

-Crabominable is slow and has poor bulk-to-typing, but it still hits like a freight train. I see plenty of tiers wanting it, particularly when Ice and Fighting are such good offensive types.
-Dugtrio-Alola may be outclassed by its standard form, but a ground-steel type with 110 base speed and decent attack is begging to be used in RU, where they are in desperate need of something to add to their pathetically small pool of Magneton counters, and if they don't use it, NU will surely want it, for they have no fast ground-types at all.

I'm not trying to be contrarian, these are just my thoughts. Hope I was helpful.

 

[ManOfMany]

Some of the Pokemon you listed would be gained seem unlikely to me. Here's why:

-Crabominable is slow and has poor bulk-to-typing, but it still hits like a freight train. I see plenty of tiers wanting it.
-Gumshoos is, again, slow and has poor bulk-to-typing. However, because its bulk-to-typing deficiency is not as pronounced as the previous, and its access to a stupidly good ability in Adaptability, I see it in one of the BLs.
-Oranguru's bizarre but great typing will be incredibly well recieved, no doubt, and probably long before it drops all the way down to here.
-Dugtrio-Alola may be outclassed by its standard form, but a ground-steel type with 110 base speed and decent attack is begging to be used in RU, where they are in desperate need of something to add to their pathetically small pool of Magneton counters, and if they don't use it, NU will surely want it, for they have no fast ground-types at all.

I'm not trying to be contrarian, these are just my thoughts. Hope I was helpful.

I agree with Dugtrio-Alola but the other three will surely be PU. Being a fantastic wallbreaker and hitting stupidly hard has never stopped pokemon from dropping to PU. For example, look at Rampardos, Marowak, and Beheeyem. Some of the hardest-hitting pokemon in the game, but like Crabominable and Gumshoos their slow speed and poor bulk are killers.

About Oranguru, I love this pokemon but there is practically no reason to use it over Meloetta in RU and Mesprit in NU, so I can see that here pretty quickly.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Speaking of Gumshoos, I know that Adaptability is the "hyped" ability for the thing, but I actually feel like Strong Jaw is the best of the three abilities it possesses.

Gumshoos @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Hyper Fang
- U-turn

So what does Strong Jaw do to help this thing? Notably, with Hyper Fang it gives the thing high power STAB. And 110 base attack is by no means weak (you have a high chance of OHKOing unboosted Muk (unless physically defensive spreads become popular this gen), OHKO most Grumpig variants, and you deal pretty damn good damage to most things that aren't physically bulky in general). Its speed (in combination with its terrible bulk and Fighting weakness (especially bad if we get Primeape this gen)), do set it back quite a lot, but I feel like if Gumshoos is to have ANY sort of niche, it'd be through a set similar to this. (Its base 45 speed is literally the same as Golem though, so you could opt for a Jolly nature and max speed instead of the bulky mess I came up with (though this does allow it to live random Focus Blasts and stuff))

Another Pokemon I've been trying to experiment with is Crabominable. This thing's issues are basically the same as Gumshoos', but added to that is a terrible defensive typing (though you do resist Dark and Ice (the latter of which will likely make an impact via various buffs to PU Ice-types such as Vanniluxe and Cryogonal), you're weak to Fighting, Fire, Psychic, and Flying). There's also the issue of its best STABs being very risky to use (all of them involve lowering stats, particularly defensive ones, which makes it even easier to revenge kill; Ice Punch and Brick Break are "safe" options but they're far too weak). It also has no way of raising its speed outside of Z-Move Hail. Of course, the speed problem could theoretically be fixed via use of Sticky Web, but there are SEVERAL better mons that can advantage of that that aren't easily revenge killed. Its sad that its defensively abysmal, as it does have a lot of great offensive perks, but unfortunately it just seems very hard to use efficiently, especially with competition from both the Fighting-type and Ice-type physically attacking angle.

On a side note, any early opinions on Lurantis? The thing that strikes me is that its a Defogger that can cleanly beat most Stealth Rock setters 1v1 thanks to Contrary Leaf Storm. I think the speed is an issue here too, but I don't think 70/90/90 is that BAD for defenses, at least its a lot better than the other two I mentioned. I think Leaf Storm/Defog/HP Fire (HP Ice also works)/Filler works decently (pretty sure Storm + Defog is legal on the thing, right?).

I don't know what to really say about everything else, but I actually feel like Turtonator and Mudsdale will end up here as well, the former only because it just seems outclassed by everything even in NU, and the latter primarily for similar reasons. (Though Stamina could provide a strong niche in NU as pure Ground isn't a TERRIBLE typing defensively all things considered (I feel like Assault Vest could work, since its very bulky and has several key immunities/resistances for it to be able to tank on both sides, though I'm unsure of its effectiveness))

 

[ManOfMany]

Speaking of Gumshoos, I know that Adaptability is the "hyped" ability for the thing, but I actually feel like Strong Jaw is the best of the three abilities it possesses.

Gumshoos @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Hyper Fang
- U-turn

So what does Strong Jaw do to help this thing? Notably, with Hyper Fang it gives the thing high power STAB. And 110 base attack is by no means weak (you have a high chance of OHKOing unboosted Muk (unless physically defensive spreads become popular this gen), OHKO most Grumpig variants, and you deal pretty damn good damage to most things that aren't physically bulky in general). Its speed (in combination with its terrible bulk and Fighting weakness (especially bad if we get Primeape this gen)), do set it back quite a lot, but I feel like if Gumshoos is to have ANY sort of niche, it'd be through a set similar to this. (Its base 45 speed is literally the same as Golem though, so you could opt for a Jolly nature and max speed instead of the bulky mess I came up with (though this does allow it to live random Focus Blasts and stuff))

Another Pokemon I've been trying to experiment with is Crabominable. This thing's issues are basically the same as Gumshoos', but added to that is a terrible defensive typing (though you do resist Dark and Ice (the latter of which will likely make an impact via various buffs to PU Ice-types such as Vanniluxe and Cryogonal), you're weak to Fighting, Fire, Psychic, and Flying). There's also the issue of its best STABs being very risky to use (all of them involve lowering stats, particularly defensive ones, which makes it even easier to revenge kill; Ice Punch and Brick Break are "safe" options but they're far too weak). It also has no way of raising its speed outside of Z-Move Hail. Of course, the speed problem could theoretically be fixed via use of Sticky Web, but there are SEVERAL better mons that can advantage of that that aren't easily revenge killed. Its sad that its defensively abysmal, as it does have a lot of great offensive perks, but unfortunately it just seems very hard to use efficiently, especially with competition from both the Fighting-type and Ice-type physically attacking angle.

On a side note, any early opinions on Lurantis? The thing that strikes me is that its a Defogger that can cleanly beat most Stealth Rock setters 1v1 thanks to Contrary Leaf Storm. I think the speed is an issue here too, but I don't think 70/90/90 is that BAD for defenses, at least its a lot better than the other two I mentioned. I think Leaf Storm/Defog/HP Fire (HP Ice also works)/Filler works decently (pretty sure Storm + Defog is legal on the thing, right?).

I don't know what to really say about everything else, but I actually feel like Turtonator and Mudsdale will end up here as well, the former only because it just seems outclassed by everything even in NU, and the latter primarily for similar reasons. (Though Stamina could provide a strong niche in NU as pure Ground isn't a TERRIBLE typing defensively all things considered (I feel like Assault Vest could work, since its very bulky and has several key immunities/resistances for it to be able to tank on both sides, though I'm unsure of its effectiveness))

Adaptability Return hits quite a bit harder than Strong Jaw Hyper Fang though, so I don't think Strong Jaw would be the better ability. A boosted Crunch would still be nice to function sort of like a dual STAB as well as hit ghost-types harder (although Banded Crunch still hits super hard either way), so it would still be okay. Also, Gumshoos definitely needs max speed, since its only niche seems to be as a wallbreaker. If you are going to break walls, you better outspeed those walls- plus its bulk is crappy anyway.

Really though I think this thing's largest niche might be with Stakeout though. An example scenario of how Stakeout might work is: Your CB Gumshoos is sent out against a SpD Clefairy, ready to destroy it. You use Return- they go to their normal resist or Tangela and are forced to take a +2 CB Return, which nothing except ghost types can take- so they just are 2HKOd. Stakeout basically means you hit like a Stoutland that does double damage to switch-ins!

Gumshoos @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Ability: Stakeout/Adaptability/Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Facade/Pursuit

For Lurantis, I think that pokemon might be NU, but if it is PU it will be pretty solid. A defogger is always nice for a tier like PU, especially one with good bulk and reliable recovery. I don't think the speed will be too much of an issue since Luri should primarily be defensive- except with a nice offensive gem in contrary leaf storm meaning it isn't passive.

Lurantis @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Defog
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]

^This might be a sample set. I went with specially defensive to take on attackers like Mr.Mime and Floatzel but I'm sure physically defensive works too. I'm not too sure about an offensive tank set because I think it needs all the bulk it can get if it wants to reliably Defog.

 

[The Elder Dragon]

Speaking of Gumshoos, I know that Adaptability is the "hyped" ability for the thing, but I actually feel like Strong Jaw is the best of the three abilities it possesses.

Gumshoos @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Hyper Fang
- U-turn

So what does Strong Jaw do to help this thing? Notably, with Hyper Fang it gives the thing high power STAB. And 110 base attack is by no means weak (you have a high chance of OHKOing unboosted Muk (unless physically defensive spreads become popular this gen), OHKO most Grumpig variants, and you deal pretty damn good damage to most things that aren't physically bulky in general). Its speed (in combination with its terrible bulk and Fighting weakness (especially bad if we get Primeape this gen)), do set it back quite a lot, but I feel like if Gumshoos is to have ANY sort of niche, it'd be through a set similar to this. (Its base 45 speed is literally the same as Golem though, so you could opt for a Jolly nature and max speed instead of the bulky mess I came up with (though this does allow it to live random Focus Blasts and stuff))

Another Pokemon I've been trying to experiment with is Crabominable. This thing's issues are basically the same as Gumshoos', but added to that is a terrible defensive typing (though you do resist Dark and Ice (the latter of which will likely make an impact via various buffs to PU Ice-types such as Vanniluxe and Cryogonal), you're weak to Fighting, Fire, Psychic, and Flying). There's also the issue of its best STABs being very risky to use (all of them involve lowering stats, particularly defensive ones, which makes it even easier to revenge kill; Ice Punch and Brick Break are "safe" options but they're far too weak). It also has no way of raising its speed outside of Z-Move Hail. Of course, the speed problem could theoretically be fixed via use of Sticky Web, but there are SEVERAL better mons that can advantage of that that aren't easily revenge killed. Its sad that its defensively abysmal, as it does have a lot of great offensive perks, but unfortunately it just seems very hard to use efficiently, especially with competition from both the Fighting-type and Ice-type physically attacking angle.

On a side note, any early opinions on Lurantis? The thing that strikes me is that its a Defogger that can cleanly beat most Stealth Rock setters 1v1 thanks to Contrary Leaf Storm. I think the speed is an issue here too, but I don't think 70/90/90 is that BAD for defenses, at least its a lot better than the other two I mentioned. I think Leaf Storm/Defog/HP Fire (HP Ice also works)/Filler works decently (pretty sure Storm + Defog is legal on the thing, right?).

I don't know what to really say about everything else, but I actually feel like Turtonator and Mudsdale will end up here as well, the former only because it just seems outclassed by everything even in NU, and the latter primarily for similar reasons. (Though Stamina could provide a strong niche in NU as pure Ground isn't a TERRIBLE typing defensively all things considered (I feel like Assault Vest could work, since its very bulky and has several key immunities/resistances for it to be able to tank on both sides, though I'm unsure of its effectiveness))

I feel like Facade and Return are enough power to compensate for not boosting the attack power of Crunch.
Plus, if you run strong jaw, Stoutland will hit nearly as hard as you, and because it has Scrappy, it'd be hitting ghosts anyway, and has perfect coverage in just two moves, basically giving it 2 free slots, while in contrast Gumshoos needs all four moves to get its perfect coverage. In order to compete with Stoutland you'd need the niche of Stakeout or Adaptability.

 

[Solar Flare]

Adaptability Return hits quite a bit harder than Strong Jaw Hyper Fang though, so I don't think Strong Jaw would be the better ability. A boosted Crunch would still be nice to function sort of like a dual STAB as well as hit ghost-types harder (although Banded Crunch still hits super hard either way), so it would still be okay. Also, Gumshoos definitely needs max speed, since its only niche seems to be as a wallbreaker. If you are going to break walls, you better outspeed those walls- plus its bulk is crappy anyway.

Really though I think this thing's largest niche might be with Stakeout though. An example scenario of how Stakeout might work is: Your CB Gumshoos is sent out against a SpD Clefairy, ready to destroy it. You use Return- they go to their normal resist or Tangela and are forced to take a +2 CB Return, which nothing except ghost types can take- so they just are 2HKOd. Stakeout basically means you hit like a Stoutland that does double damage to switch-ins!

Gumshoos @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Ability: Stakeout/Adaptability/Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Facade/Pursuit

For Lurantis, I think that pokemon might be NU, but if it is PU it will be pretty solid. A defogger is always nice for a tier like PU, especially one with good bulk and reliable recovery. I don't think the speed will be too much of an issue since Luri should primarily be defensive- except with a nice offensive gem in contrary leaf storm meaning it isn't passive.

Lurantis @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Defog
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]

^This might be a sample set. I went with specially defensive to take on attackers like Mr.Mime and Floatzel but I'm sure physically defensive works too. I'm not too sure about an offensive tank set because I think it needs all the bulk it can get if it wants to reliably Defog.

I really like this Lurantis set. Honestly these are gonna be the 4 moves it's going to run on most of its sets in my honest opinion. A set I have been using for a more offensive spin on it is:

Lurantis @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis
- Defog

Lurantis is by no means weak, so I feel that speed creeping Golem and just going bulky offensive isn't a bad idea. Maybe just run max max to hit maximum speed or max hp max special attack with modest instead? And on the note of bulky hazard removal:

Komala @ Assault Vest
Ability: Comatose
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin

I honestly feel that Komala makes a decent assault vest hazard remover. good typing and bulk plus a massive 115 attack. A Mon being able to spin and pivot is nice, but a mon that can spin, pivot, and is also not weak to rocks? Even better.

 

[SergioRules]

I honestly feel that Komala makes a decent assault vest hazard remover. good typing and bulk plus a massive 115 attack. A Mon being able to spin and pivot is nice, but a mon that can spin, pivot, and is also not weak to rocks? Even better.

Don't forget also being immune to Toxic Spikes. And for all these reasons, I've been beginning to doubt that Komala will fall down this far. Comatose is such a good ability for a spinner, and although it's kinda frail on the physical side, I could see NU or even RU wanting this thing.

 

[Solar Flare]

Don't forget also being immune to Toxic Spikes. And for all these reasons, I've been beginning to doubt that Komala will fall down this far. Comatose is such a good ability for a spinner, and although it's kinda frail on the physical side, I could see NU or even RU wanting this thing.

agreed, my only problem is that it lacks recovery outside of wish (not even rest D:) so we'll see what happens! Hopefully we might get it, so we can have all this amazing hazard removal.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Don't forget also being immune to Toxic Spikes. And for all these reasons, I've been beginning to doubt that Komala will fall down this far. Comatose is such a good ability for a spinner, and although it's kinda frail on the physical side, I could see NU or even RU wanting this thing.

I really don't think this Komala will go to NU and especially not to RU. NU has skuntank and xatu for handling tspikes and shiftry+hitmonchan for removal as well. None of these tiers are gonna want to touch a slow normal type without recovery. RU has access to Flygon which already has access to levitate for tspikes immunity in addition to all the mons from NU. We're definitely getting this mon and it's going to be good here but it's going to suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome as if you go with Frustration, EQ, Uturn, Rapid Spin you're not going to be able to spin on gourgeist-super. However, you could run Acrobatics in place of uturn and no item and you'll have a ~60% chance to 2HKO gourgeist after SR so I could definitely see this as a staple on teams that absolutely need guaranteed removal. Overall, this thing is something I'm looking forward to and I think it and Lurantis will be good additions to PU.

Replace Stoutland with Komala
252+ Atk Stoutland Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

EDIT: Calc had colbur so here is with lefties. Still shows that you'll want acro to be able to break geist after a bit of chip

252+ Atk Stoutland Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[HotFuzzBall]

I really don't think this Komala will go to NU and especially not to RU. NU has skuntank and xatu for handling tspikes and shiftry+hitmonchan for removal as well. None of these tiers are gonna want to touch a slow normal type without recovery. RU has access to Flygon which already has access to levitate for tspikes immunity in addition to all the mons from NU. We're definitely getting this mon and it's going to be good here but it's going to suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome as if you go with Frustration, EQ, Uturn, Rapid Spin you're not going to be able to spin on gourgeist-super. However, you could run Acrobatics in place of uturn and no item and you'll have a ~60% chance to 2HKO gourgeist after SR so I could definitely see this as a staple on teams that absolutely need guaranteed removal. Overall, this thing is something I'm looking forward to and I think it and Lurantis will be good additions to PU.

Replace Stoutland with Komala
252+ Atk Stoutland Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

EDIT: Calc had colbur so here is with lefties. Still shows that you'll want acro to be able to break geist after a bit of chip

252+ Atk Stoutland Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Gonna have to disagree with you with this one. I think Komala is way too strong for PU tbh. Komala does have reliable recovery with Wish so it becomes a spinner that does not mind status (Hitmonchan, Skuntank, and Shiftry don't like status) while having recovery. Also, I highly doubt Flygon will stay in RU after receiving Dragon Dance in this gen too since it'd be pretty broken with their lack of Fairies. The combination of acceptable bulk (65/65/95 isn't that bad imo) and Comatose lets Komala switch into weaker Scalds, Thunderbolts, etc. while being able to switch into random status inducing moves. Comatose also lets Komala set-up Swords Dance or Bulk Ups since it will never have to worry about burns, paralysis, or poison. Since there is a lack of 100% sleep inducing moves in lower tiers currently (excluding Vivillon, Shiinotic and Smeargle), Komala doesn't really have to worry about sleep. Yeah Komala is slow but, it has decent bulk and also 110 base attack that makes up for it. Overall, I think Komala could function well in RU or maybe be a niche in UU because of these reasons.

 

[MaroGod]

Gumshoos Set

Gumshoos @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout / Adaptability
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration / Facade
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- U-turn

Gumshoos, This thing has barely anything going for it both being very slow (base 45) and not at all bulky (88/60/60) it only has a few slight advantages going for it with the potential of losing Stoutland in the craze of weather wars (Hippowdon likely returning to UU/Gigaliths potential placement) this can open up a lot of doors but even then other physical Normal Type breakers such as Ursaring,Bouffalant and Lickilicky easily fulfill the role with Gumshoos only really having slight advantages over the lot the main one however being U-Turn as well as the ability to create even fewer switch-ins with both it's Stakeout and Adaptability.

Stakeout has been a rather underrated one from what I've seen and while i do agree Adaptability will be the main one Stakeout does have some rather good qualities such as scoring straight OHKOs on defensive switch-ins which can be especially worthwhile for a pokemon getting locked into some rather easy to abuse moves. In the long run this still will be a mediocre breaker at best but has slight potential.

I really don't think this Komala will go to NU and especially not to RU. NU has skuntank and xatu for handling tspikes and shiftry+hitmonchan for removal as well. None of these tiers are gonna want to touch a slow normal type without recovery. RU has access to Flygon which already has access to levitate for tspikes immunity in addition to all the mons from NU.

I doubt we will get Komala and most of the points here while not bad just aren't really correct...RU i won't touch on since i agree it won't touch that for long however Skuntank+Xatu do not have certain capabilities that Komala posses. i'll leave a post done by NUs erisia on Komola as it gives a tad more insight http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...sion-speculation-thread.3587371/#post-7092892

Lurantis Set/Spread

Lurantis @ Yache Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish/Bold Nature
- Defog
- Synthesis
- Grass-Type STAB
- Filler

There is no doubt in my mind we will get this mon, NU has both better use for removal and a grass type overall despite it's unique/usable combination of the two and i will look forward to the day we do because this has been a very fun one to use. I haven't touched onto offensive sets yet focusing on a defensive spread which switches into Golem+Waters with the use of Yache Berry.

The obvious thing holding it back most is the lack of speed and while i feel it's gonna be hard to justify offensive sets due to this (seriously i find it odd to not just use Leafeon,Servine,Tangela,Simisage ect if needed) it can still effectively pull it off on both sides of the spectrum with SD sets+Contrary utilizing Leaf Storm or even mixed.

 

[MZ]

Palossand- 0 results
?????????

Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe or 248 HP / 252 Spa / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic

I actually don't know what this mon is supposed to run/do, but that's part of the point: what the hell is it supposed to do in higher tiers. There's all these better ground types like Mudsdale and Rhydon and whatever to look at, and Palossand basically has ghost typing and reliable recovery to differentiate itself. Neither of those are bad things, but when you're stupidly slow with only moderate bulk (85/110/75), mediocre abilities, and 5 weaknesses, 4 of which happen to be good offensive types and 1 of which includes Pursuit, that doesn't make this terribly attractive as a defensive choice. It has a mediocre special attack of 100 which might be slightly workable, but coverage limited to dual stabs/giga drain/sludge bomb. And did I mention that it lacks boosting moves outside of amnesia/iron defense/stockpile? If this thing does drop, which I do expect, the reason I went with a physically bulky spread first is mostly so you can try out things like this:

252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
just click shore up if you know they're physical not special
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 116-138 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also maybe a tank set is good, who knows? It seems workable enough. Even in PU though, not sure how useful this mon can become. It seems like a funny niche choice, has the bulk to actually check things like stoutland (CB return is 14% chance to 2hko phys def palossand after lefties+rocks) but there's so many random water+grass types running around and lots of mons that can easily fit SE coverage that I'm not sure how well this is gonna fit. It can't even turn out to be like Camerupt where we try all these defense things and then realize specs is god because there's no nuke like Eruption to have fun with. Maybe if it got Stealth Rock...

 

[Scytaire]

Hello PU Sun and Moon speculation thread. The name is Scytaire and I want to show the other side of NOT getting some pokemon. And I will also show what these pokemon would do if they ever come to the tier. Let's get started, shall we?

Crabominable: "Too many weaknesses, too slow." Yeah, we already know that it's typing gives it a shit ton of weaknesses and it's slow. BUT, did you know that Crabominable has a perfect STAB combination. I bet you probably didn't know that already, seeing as you took a good look at it's typing and stats and based your prediction off of that. Iron Fist boosted Ice Hammer is so deadly, and if that's not enough, it gets Close Combat. So now we have a fighting type that can destroy Flying Types. We have a real monster here, and it's not like Beheeyem/Rampardos/Marowak. It has Dual-STAB and a decent ability with those STABS. Here's some calcs if you are still in disbelief:

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 180-213 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Clefairy can't outspeed + recovery (and btw, it doesn't need Stealth Rocks to 2HKO).
252+ Atk Choice Band Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 195-229 (60.7 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Grumpig can only switch ONCE, after that, your "Crabominable check" is dead.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Crabominable Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 250-295 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Seriously people, you cannot compare this monster to Rampardos, it's on a different level.

Crabominable 2HKO's the whole tier with it's STABs. Yes it's slow, but it's power is something to be appreciated of in NU/RU where Fighting-Types (like Crabominable) truly shine.

Komala: This pokemon has been mentioned recently and I want to explain why it's not going to be PU. This pokemon is immune to all STATUSES except sleep. This is a rapid spinner that can come in on Toxic Spikes (With no drawbacks and spin them away). Garbodor, who is S rank in NU currently is known for Toxic Spikes. So what happens when you get a pokemon that can is not weak to Stealth Rocks and completely immune to Toxic Spikes and can spin them away? A great spinner for NU or even RU perhaps. And if that's not all, it gets Swords Dance. So now you're not burning this pokemon and it gets 2+ attack. After the 2+, Tangela gets bodied and if you wanna say: "Oh well, Tangela can just Sleep Powder it!" There's 2 things wrong with that statement. 1) When Tangela is switching into a 2+ attack, it does not outspeed the turn after. 2) Sleep powder is 75 accuracy, so you are betting that 75% accuracy move is enough to justify your argument. Steels and Rock types can't even wall it properly because it has Wood Hammer and Brick Break. Ghosts with Will-o-Wisp are just fodder because of Shadow Claw. It can also run a Bulk Up set with Wish as a recovery. AV set can switch into special attackers that lack a good fighting move. At the end of the day, Komala is too good for PU. I don't even have to show you calcs because it's basically a swords dance Stoutland, and you guys probably know how threatening Stoutland is without Swords Dance. If Komala comes to this tier (which I HIGHLY doubt), we've got a beast on our hands.

I hope you guys really take into account what destruction these 2 pokemon can do to the tier. Even though there is a high chance that these pokemon will end up in NU/RU, there's no safe answer. Maybe for my next post I can highlight pokemon like Lycanroc/Tsareena/Palossand (which I will be explaining why these 3 pokemon can become PU.)

 

[The Elder Dragon]

Palossand- 0 results
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View attachment 74085
Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe or 248 HP / 252 Spa / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic

I actually don't know what this mon is supposed to run/do, but that's part of the point: what the hell is it supposed to do in higher tiers. There's all these better ground types like Mudsdale and Rhydon and whatever to look at, and Palossand basically has ghost typing and reliable recovery to differentiate itself. Neither of those are bad things, but when you're stupidly slow with only moderate bulk (85/110/75), mediocre abilities, and 5 weaknesses, 4 of which happen to be good offensive types and 1 of which includes Pursuit, that doesn't make this terribly attractive as a defensive choice. It has a mediocre special attack of 100 which might be slightly workable, but coverage limited to dual stabs/giga drain/sludge bomb. And did I mention that it lacks boosting moves outside of amnesia/iron defense/stockpile? If this thing does drop, which I do expect, the reason I went with a physically bulky spread first is mostly so you can try out things like this:

252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
just click shore up if you know they're physical not special
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 116-138 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also maybe a tank set is good, who knows? It seems workable enough. Even in PU though, not sure how useful this mon can become. It seems like a funny niche choice, has the bulk to actually check things like stoutland (CB return is 14% chance to 2hko phys def palossand after lefties+rocks) but there's so many random water+grass types running around and lots of mons that can easily fit SE coverage that I'm not sure how well this is gonna fit. It can't even turn out to be like Camerupt where we try all these defense things and then realize specs is god because there's no nuke like Eruption to have fun with. Maybe if it got Stealth Rock...

Palossand actually seems like it'll be a massive troll for rock bottom ladder...

 

[Solar Flare]

THE FINAL UPDATE. After surprisingly a few hours of research I now have the last update until tiers update and take mons from the list (trust me, they won't). I've bolded all new additions to gain and loss. :] Remember to discuss some of these mons or mons you feel I might've missed!
Gain:

Fletchinder

Gumshoos

Lurantis

Lycanroc-Midnight

Oricorio-Baile

Oricorio-Pa'u

Oricorio-Pom-Pom

Oranguru

Primeape (Might be a little overpowered, will be looking into this)

Silvallly (all but ghost and fairy)

Togedemaru

Turtonator

Persian-A

Raticate-A

Sandslash-A

All Gen 7 NFE/LC mons

Lose:

Dodrio

Gigalith

Pelipper

Prinplup (in the aaaaarms ooof an angeeeel)

Probably not the most accurate thing though, that is why its a speculation thread though.

A reminder: Because its gen 7 PU, Bl4 mons are now considered PU and imo can be used in "speculation PU." These mons include:

Carracosta

Exeggutor

Linoone

Machoke

Musharna

Throh

Victreebel

Vigoroth

 

[HotFuzzBall]

I think Wishiwashi might be way to strong for PU imo. Due to its mono-water typing, it can afford to switch into a lot of moves coupled with good (45/135/145) bulk. It has very strong 140 offensive stats in its school form which is also a bit too hard for PU to handle since there aren't a many mons that can count as reliable switch ins since it can run a mixed, physical or special set.

Alolan Ninetales and Sandslash seem to have a lot of usage lately, I think Ninetales is probably the best of the 4 hail setters due to access to Aurora Veil while Sandslash is the best abuser of Slush Rush due to its great typing and also it has really solid stats. So I think they will not be in PU.

Beartic might also leave PU since it is also another great abuser of Slush Rush. Base 130 Attack is very strong coupled with its decent-ish movepool. Its somewhat bad Speed stat can be remedied by Hail so yeah.

I believe Vanilluxe willl stay PU since there are better options for Snow Warning setters (Aurorus, Ninetales, Abomasnow).

Not sure about Turtonator and Crabominable being PU though, they also seem a bit too strong for PU but, idk.

Also if Drizzle does get banned for UU-PU, I think Pelipper might stay in PU since it'd be similar to Politoed's issue where Drizzle Politoed is OU while regular Politoed is PU. This goes to the rest of the weather setters as well if automatic weather does gets banned.

 

[Magnemite]

Here's a pretty big update for the list of mons I think will be usable in gen 7 PU. I've bolded all new additions to gain and loss, but for mons gains I've removed Pyukumuku and Toucannon. :] Remember to discuss some of these mons or mons you feel I might've missed!
Gain:

Crabominable

Fletchinder

Gumshoos

Lurantis

Lycanroc-Midnight

Oricorio-Baile

Oricorio-Pa'u

Oricorio-Pom-Pom

Oranguru

Primeape (Might be a little overpowered, will be looking into this)

Silvallly (Bug / Dragon / Fire / Ice/ Normal /Poison)

Togedemaru

Turtonator

Wishiwashi

Dugtrio-A (Might also be questionable)

Ninetales-A

Persian-A

Raticate-A

Sandslash-A

All Gen 7 NFE/LC mons

Lose:

Dodrio

Gigalith

Pelipper

Vaniluxe

Probably not the most accurate thing though, that is why its a speculation thread though.

A reminder: Because its gen 7 PU, Bl4 mons are now considered PU and imo can be used in "speculation PU." These mons include:

Carracosta

Exeggutor

Linoone

Machoke

Musharna

Throh

Victreebel

Vigoroth

Not sure why you posted this considering the initial list in the op was already enough for now and I already said that I'll be making a more "accurate" speculative meta in january or so, but there's absolutely no way we're not getting toucannon. toucannon won't even be good at all in PU, it's way too slow and frail and not even that strong. we discussed it a bit on discord earlier and we pretty much all thought that it just won't be good at all.

 

[Adonzo]

Barring some ban on Snow Warning in higher tiers, there is no way Alolan Ninetales is falling this far (especially while Vanilluxe goes up), as it is by far the best hail setter and can even provide invaluable to non-dedicated hail teams with Aurora Veil. Similarly, Normal Silvally's access to items single-handedly makes it one of the best Silvally forms - lots of other types will fall to PU before Normal Silvally does.

EDIT: I would also be surprised if Alolan Persian fell this far. Fur Coat is an amazingly underrated ability, and A-Persian much more capable of abusing it than Furfrou, with great support options and even the ability to sweep with a NP set (Technician may be cool for HP, but Fur Coat is still the better ability).

 

[Joe Career]

No one mentioned this yet I think. Leech Life is now the go-to move for Ninjask. Replacing X-Scissor with the exact same base power BUT providing it with a way to recover health is huge. I can even see Ninjask climbing up a bit in terms of viability.

 

[ManOfMany]

Here are my thoughts about some of the buffs PU pokemon got. I've omitted some of the ones I think won't fall to PU though:

Arbok- 95 attack is cool, although the Sucker nerf is not. Overall though I think this is an improvement though since it means Arbok can run Jolly much easier now since it now has enough power to break the metagame with +1 Jolly Gunk Shot.

Electrode- 150 speed is a nice medium buff for it. Modest Electrode now only has to invest 112 speed EVs into outspeeding Zebstrika, while Timid sets only need 136 speed EVs to outspeed +2 Modest Gorebyss.

Masquerain- This is a pretty huge buff for sure. It now can outspeed the whole metagame besides Electrode/Ninjask at +1 using a Modest nature, and make no mistake, +1 Bug Buzz off 100 SpA hits really hard. In addition it has fantastic water coverage in Hydro Pump/Scald to blow past pretty much all bug type checks except for Clefairy. There are still a lot of flaws to it, for example being SR weak and having minimal setup opportunities. But this will be scary.

Volbeat/Illumise- The bulk increase is really nice for sure. They become much more reliable as weather setters and disrupters.

Lunatone- 90 HP actually makes this quite bulky on both sides, and Power Gem is a fantastic coverage addition. I could see the famed rock polish set being an actual threat with RP/Earth Power/Power Gem/Psychic giving it perfect coverage. But I think the real gem will lie in its Calm Mind sets. With 90 HP and 85 SpD it can now function as a bulky tank as well as a win condition with a set of CM/Moonlight/Earth Power/Power Gem or something like that.

Solrock- 90 HP is a very nice buff for defensive Solrock, considering that its main flaw was not having enough sheer bulk compared to other SR setters. I see this becoming a lot more common in the tier especially now that it can wall things like Monferno and Stoutland a lot better.

Chimecho- Chimecho is actually really bulky now with 75/80/90 stats. If Clefairy goes to NU, this would be a nice and not outclassed wall, with moves like Recover, Heal Bell, and Psywave. Additionally it could function as a very decent stallbreaker considering its Access to both Taunt and Recover, or even a win condition with Cosmic Power + Stored Power Calm Mind + Psyshock sets, with reliable recovery to differentiate it from Grumpig.

Magcargo- I don't think people were entirely fair to Mag before as it could check stuff like Leafeon, Jumpluff, Dodrio (rip), Mawile, Articuno, and Pawniard really well. Now with its bulk and SpA increase it can check all those same threats better- I think it can be relevant if people are willing to give it a try.

Crustle- 105 attack is a tangible improvement, especially for Shell Smash sets considering they come a lot closer to OHKOing stuff like Tangela, Stunfisk, and Metang at +2, meaning it only needs hazards support to sweep teams without a Choice Scarf user. Nothing huge but this will get better.

Beartic*- Okay, this is probably not gonna be PU considering Alolan Ninetales is great with Aurora Veil and is never going PU, and Hail seems a pretty solid strategy overall. That being said, if Hail's popularity dips then this could be a fearsome sweeper along with Snow Warning Vanilluxe.

Vanilluxe*- I have no idea if we keep this or not but hoping we do. Snow Warning is a fairly significant buff but if Alolan Ninetales falls to RU or possibly NU, it could outclass Vanilluxe there, and Aurorus and Abomasnow still exist to give it competition in NU. If it falls to PU it will not only be a terrifying pokemon on its own (Specs/LO Blizzard hits like a truck off of 110 SpA), but will also be great paired with a possible Beartic.

Bellossom- I think people are strongly underestimating this because of how slow Bellossom is. While Bellossom may still need two boosts to outspeed common teams, or three if they have a scarf pokemon, Bellossom still has more than enough bulk to get those boosts. With just one QD in addition to Giga Drain recovery, Bell can be near unkillable on the SpD side, while the only things that can really revenge kill her on the physical side are physical fire-types. Bell will be a very scary bulky sweeper once we find a good stat spread for her mark my words. Set I think will be Quiver Dance, Giga, HP Fire, Sub/Synthesis.

Furret- Coil sets might still be pretty bad, but I don't think they would be completely unviable. Could be nice on normal spam as it does a very nice job of killing typical normal type checks between Coil, Knock Off, and possibly Seed Bomb. Would be scary on webs too, and Furret has surprisingly decent physical bulk so shouldn't be too hard to set up.

Basculin- I think Head Smash is a very cool addition and would make Rock Head sets a nice alternative to Adaptability sets. Although a powerful Aqua Jet/Waterfall would still make Adaptability better, Rock Head sets now have essentially a dual STAB between Waterfall and Head Smash and do a great job of luring things that can take water hits. Overall a very interesting change.

-----

Okay, now I wanted to start some discussion of Z-moves. There are not many pokemon in PU who would prefer having a Z-move over a Life Orb, leftovers, or choice item, but these pokemon exist and it can definitely be a nice way to lure threats.

Leafeon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Double Edge

SD Leafeon is one pokemon that would function well with a Z-move considering it does perfectly fine without boosting items anyway. Normalium Z offers it a 190 BP Breakneck Blitz, which needless to say OHKOs Monferno, Muk, Articuno, Altaria, opposing Leafeon, etc. This can be really scary since most teams only carry one hard check to Leafeon.
An alternative is using Supersonic Skystrike paired with Aerial Ace (120 BP), or Savage Spin Out (160 BP) with X-scissor to hit Gourgeist and Tangela, respectively.

Grumpig @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt/Calm Mind

Grumpig is another pokemon that could make good use of a Z-move, considering it can easily bluff Colbur Berry and rarely uses a boosting move anyway. Focus Blast Z is a 100% accuracy 190 BP All-Out Pummeling which could destroy stuff like Audino and Bouffalant.

All NP users in general could make decent use of Z-items to lure out and kill specific threats, or even blast past walls with 200 BP moves. I don't feel like going into detail with this though since it's fairly obvious.


Z-Celebrate (+1 All Stats):
Celebrate gives you +1 in all stats, which is pretty scary. Some relevant pokemon like Leafeon, Glaceon, Flareon, and Raichu get the move. This can turn all of them into pretty decent lategame cleaners. However I do not think this strategy will be broken because the boosts in offensive stats are mediocre, so you still get walled by walls. Will be very scary vs offense, but poor vs defensive teams. I think this will boost the viability of both Flareon and Glaceon.

Z-Forest's Curse will also be very useful on Trevenant as it gives the same boosts and Trev gets great coverage and Horn Leech to make the strategy successul.

Glaceon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Celebrate
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Z-Splash (+3 Attack):
Lopunny is the only good user of the move (Wailord and Politoed are meh), but nonetheless it is a good user. Lopunny's great speed tier and decent coverage makes it a huge threat vs slower teams that lack a ghost-type. Even if they do have a ghost type, Lopunny can Baton pass the boosts or threaten to kill a weakened ghost with +3 Ice Punch. Lopunny's main problem will be setting up safely, as well as revenge killers, since you only get one opportunity for the Z-move.

Lopunny @ Normalium Z
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Splash
- Return
- Drain Punch/High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch/Baton Pass

Z-Work Up (+1 Attack):
Stoutland learns the move, and I think it will be fairly interesting on him as he has always wanted Swords Dance. Additionally, since Work Up is normal type, you can choose to use the Z-move on either the boost or Breakneck Blitz. Will be a fun set.

Stoutland @ Normalium Z
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Work Up
- Superpower
- Return
- Facade

Z-Hypnosis and Z-Encore (+1 Speed)
I don't think Z-hypnosis will be too relevant as it is only 60% accuracy, however it could still be fairly useful on Mr.Mime or Ninetales. Mr.Mime gets good coverage and can sweep teams lategame with or without Nasty Plot, and can also abuse the Z-move with Psychic instead.

Z-encore has wider distribution and I think will be the more common of the two, although it still requires prediction to pull off successfully. Chatot may be the best user of this strategy- after encoring a slower pokemon like Audino it could potentially grab a Nasty Plot, and then only priority can stop it.

Chatot @ Normalium Z
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Nasty Plot
- Boomburst
- Heat Wave

also Megazard I doubt Palossand will come to PU, because it actually fits fairly well in the NU metagame (assuming it is somewhat similar to ORAS). I thought the same as you at first, but reliable recovery and huge bulk patches up so many of its issues. Palossand hard counters Tauros, and easily switches in on Rhydon and Steelix. It also takes on Archeops and Kanghaskhan, while reliably spinblocking Hitmonchan. This is all while being much harder to switch into than Gourgeist-Super. I would love to have it PU though so let's hope for the best.

 

[Solar Flare]

Barring some ban on Snow Warning in higher tiers, there is no way Alolan Ninetales is falling this far (especially while Vanilluxe goes up), as it is by far the best hail setter and can even provide invaluable to non-dedicated hail teams with Aurora Veil. Similarly, Normal Silvally's access to items single-handedly makes it one of the best Silvally forms - lots of other types will fall to PU before Normal Silvally does.

EDIT: I would also be surprised if Alolan Persian fell this far. Fur Coat is an amazingly underrated ability, and A-Persian much more capable of abusing it than Furfrou, with great support options and even the ability to sweep with a NP set (Technician may be cool for HP, but Fur Coat is still the better ability).

I admit that Alolan Ninetales is a really good hail setter, and that maybe it wasn't the best choice to make when I got rid of vanilluxe, but Normal silvally is something I don't agree with at all. Normal Silvally being called the best Silvally is on account of how underexplored it is as a mon, and most people come to this conclusion based on its ability to hold an item alone, but the truth is that Silvally's movepool as a normal type is straight ASS. It has no special stab (Edit: It has Tri-Attack apparently, could actually be a bit better than I first thought but my main point still stands), and its physical movepool is barren as hell with only like 4 good physical moves for coverage. After comparing it to other normals in NU, RU, or even comparing it to Type: Null who makes up for the crap movepool by having godlike bulk, I'd say Silvally-Normal is one of the worse forms, and that the best ones would probably be like Silvally-Fairy and Silvally-Steel since they can work with that small movepool.