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how come zygarde 50% is banned from OU? Like I get zygarde-complete and by proxy zygarde 50% with power construct, but there are a lot of other setup sweepers and OU is filled with fairies. Is there a specific reason that it's so good? All I can think of is dd with glare and thousand arrows which is admittedly very good but anything else that makes it so good?
 

Clementine

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how come zygarde 50% is banned from OU? Like I get zygarde-complete and by proxy zygarde 50% with power construct, but there are a lot of other setup sweepers and OU is filled with fairies. Is there a specific reason that it's so good? All I can think of is dd with glare and thousand arrows which is admittedly very good but anything else that makes it so good?
Even without the incredible Ability that is Power Construct, Zygarde was really restrictive in the tier, only needing one offensive move, being Thousand Arrows. This move allowed Zyg to hit everything besides Tangrowth or Bulu for at least neutral damage, and the impressive amount of options it had allowed it to beat its "counters". DD Steelium set destroyed Clefable and Bulu, Sub Coil Glare sets would beat the popular Curse Mega Scizor with some full paras, and Choice Band sets had the immediate power to overwhelm common answers, even packing Toxic or Glare to beat Tangrowth in the long run.
Zygarde fit on all kind of teams, from Aurora Veil Hyper Offense teams to Balance builds abusing Toxic Spikes and passive damage in general. There wasn't a single viable Pokémon that could deal with all of its sets, and even the ones that checked a majority of them could get 1v1d because of how good Glare was.
Zygarde was, in my opinion, a very unhealthy presence that had the potential to ruin every build that wasn't running at least two checks to this beast.

see replays below for examples, and read the Zyg suspect test post for a more detailed explanation
 
how come zygarde 50% is banned from OU? Like I get zygarde-complete and by proxy zygarde 50% with power construct, but there are a lot of other setup sweepers and OU is filled with fairies. Is there a specific reason that it's so good? All I can think of is dd with glare and thousand arrows which is admittedly very good but anything else that makes it so good?
Zygarde had a great ability to adapt to any type of team and had a wide variety of potential sets like dd with z move (thousand arrow, iron tail or outrage), sub dd/coil glare + tspikes like support or weakness police. It was very difficult to have a perfect counter for this pokemon because of its variety of sets and because most of them could be para'd 2 times and lose the 1v1 or the game.

here 2 examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-360338
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-306812
 
How do people feel about zeraora in SM? It has almost everything it has in its ss kit. Loses HDB, but it does get to use hp ice. Its unranked so I guess it's not too great, but why is it so much worse than in SS?
 
How do people feel about zeraora in SM? It has almost everything it has in its ss kit. Loses HDB, but it does get to use hp ice. Its unranked so I guess it's not too great, but why is it so much worse than in SS?
Z-Moves and Megas means Knock is less spammable. Scarfers and priority is more common. Also Gliscor exists.
 
How do people feel about zeraora in SM? It has almost everything it has in its ss kit. Loses HDB, but it does get to use hp ice. Its unranked so I guess it's not too great, but why is it so much worse than in SS?
IMO besides the points said by 658Greninja, zeroara has so much competition. If you need an offensive electric type, Koko is just better, hits harder and has the same options as Zeraora to get rid of ground types. And if you need it as a pivot, once again koko is here and rotom wash (especially) fills this role perfectly (can touch ground type, it has bulk, a better ability in levitate etc...). Zeraora's only assets are its speed and knock off both of which are not enough to alleviate its downsides (as said before scarfers and better knock users exist-Kartana for example).
It doesn't mean that it is not useable.
 

royalfluxh

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Is there a SM role compendium?
There was, but it's heavily outdated (though some of the mons still work on their respective roles), which you can see here.

Edit: A new one has recently been made here!

I'm trying to look into potential HO SR leads that can deny hazards besides exca, diance, azelf, and aero.
  • :mew:: One of the premier leads on HO these days. Sets up Stealth Rock + Taunt to stop opposing Stealth Rock attempts. Huge movepool lets it do whatever it wants - Thunder Wave to slow down opposing offense and paralysis shenanigans, Ice Beam threatens most Defoggers including Gliscor, or Explosion to keep offensive momentum for its teammates.
  • :terrakion:: Pretty niche but can work on some HOs thanks to Stealth Rock + Taunt as well. Higher Speed tier compared to Mew lets you Taunt Garchomp before it sets Stealth Rock, so that's something. STAB Stone Edge can also threaten Defoggers like Tornadus-T and Zapdos, but its poor matchup against Gliscor and Landorus-T makes it pretty mehh.
  • :Landorus-Therian:: Run Stealth Rock + Imprison if you're feeling saucy.
  • Not a lead, but there's another option of entry hazard remover for HO that has seen a surge in usage recently: :serperior:. Being an offensive mon in its own right and dissuading Defog attempts with Contrary, it can provide further utility with Taunt + Defog to keep Stealth Rock away. You can pair this with a lead like Mega Diancie or Mew to further stop entry hazard attempts, forming a strong anti-hazard core that can enable teammates like Mega Charizard X and Volcarona to shine.
 
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There was, but it's heavily outdated (though some of the mons still work on their respective roles), which you can see here.

Edit: A new one has recently been made here!



  • :mew:: One of the premier leads on HO these days. Sets up Stealth Rock + Taunt to stop opposing Stealth Rock attempts. Huge movepool lets it do whatever it wants - Thunder Wave to slow down opposing offense and paralysis shenanigans, Ice Beam threatens most Defoggers including Gliscor, or Explosion to keep offensive momentum for its teammates.
  • :terrakion:: Pretty niche but can work on some HOs thanks to Stealth Rock + Taunt as well. Higher Speed tier compared to Mew lets you Taunt Garchomp before it sets Stealth Rock, so that's something. STAB Stone Edge can also threaten Defoggers like Tornadus-T and Zapdos, but its poor matchup against Gliscor and Landorus-T makes it pretty mehh.
  • :Landorus-Therian:: Run Stealth Rock + Imprison if you're feeling saucy.
  • Not a lead, but there's another option of entry hazard remover for HO that has seen a surge in usage recently: :serperior:. Being an offensive mon in its own right and dissuading Defog attempts with Contrary, it can provide further utility with Taunt + Defog to keep Stealth Rock away. You can pair this with a lead like Mega Diancie or Mew to further stop entry hazard attempts, forming a strong anti-hazard core that can enable teammates like Mega Charizard X and Volcarona to shine.
Thanks!
Speaking of utility serp can you fill me in on what screens serp structures look like currently?
 

royalfluxh

Stare into the abyss.
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Thanks!
Speaking of utility serp can you fill me in on what screens serp structures look like currently?
Made a post on the Sample Teams thread that you can read here, and the first two offenses feature utility Serperior! The descriptions should give you a good idea, but let me know if you need further clarification.
Also, they're not really Screens per se, just the standard dedicated lead + offensive/setup mons (excluding the support Cresselia). However, you can definitely use it on Screens as well.
 
What moveset and spread would you use on a 4 attacks z kommo? My team doesn't have much use of dd and already has a rocker. Is it just cc/clang/flame/jab hasty with max atk max speed?
 

gorgie

formerly Floppy, now Rock hard
What moveset and spread would you use on a 4 attacks z kommo? My team doesn't have much use of dd and already has a rocker. Is it just cc/clang/flame/jab hasty with max atk max speed?
depends on what you're trying to achieve.

on some teams i go quake over flame if sciz is a non-issue and go max atk/max speed.

otherwise if im trying to soften lando+sciz i go flame max spa/max speed.

sometimes based on your squad you dont even need jab.

it all depends
 
Is dragon dance Mega Tyranitar still a good choice? If it is, what kind of support does it require and what kind of teams does it fit on?
worst thing I could think of happening is getting one shot by I fighting move while trying to set up so id say a ghost type would be good support.
 
depends on what you're trying to achieve.

on some teams i go quake over flame if sciz is a non-issue and go max atk/max speed.

otherwise if im trying to soften lando+sciz i go flame max spa/max speed.

sometimes based on your squad you dont even need jab.

it all depends
I'm using it on psyspam. Flame is more useful than quake for me for sure, however from my testing I clicked jab into a fairy almost every game and never really ever had a moment I would want to click eq. I'm not really sure if I should be physically or specially invested tho cuz I have 2 moves of each kind and I don't think testing it on ladder will actually be enough to tell me the answer.
 

gorgie

formerly Floppy, now Rock hard
I'm using it on psyspam. Flame is more useful than quake for me for sure, however from my testing I clicked jab into a fairy almost every game and never really ever had a moment I would want to click eq. I'm not really sure if I should be physically or specially invested tho cuz I have 2 moves of each kind and I don't think testing it on ladder will actually be enough to tell me the answer.
Testing on ladder plus intuition gathered from current tour teams will indeed be enough to tell you the answer
 
I've been looking into alternate items to use on KB that allow bluffing z. Both to abuse the ways that players will try to pivot around the z and for the surprise factor of being able to use the z on something else (for example koko, which is both a solid z move user and pairs well with KB).

Life orb is obviously the standard z alternative for KB, but you can't really bluff with it.

The first thing that came to mind for me is expert belt, as kyu's coverage is good, especially with HP fire and it helps all moves both physical and special. And in my testing it worked fine, as the damage calcs is barely worse then LO and there's no recoil.

However, I've also considered quick claw. Because f*** it. KB can OHKO a lot of the faster offensive pokemon that come in to revenge it with supereffective hits or at least deal fat damage to them if it randomly goes first. It's only 20% chance but it can absolutely swing or instawin a game. That said, this is pretty hard to test considering it's just random.

I was wondering if anyone else has given thought to alternative items to Z/LO on KB and could suggest me some. Or if they've tested/what they think about expert belt/quick claw. If anyone has any teams that implement KB with nonstandard item choices or tournament replays that would be even better.
 

Finchinator

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I've been looking into alternate items to use on KB that allow bluffing z. Both to abuse the ways that players will try to pivot around the z and for the surprise factor of being able to use the z on something else (for example koko, which is both a solid z move user and pairs well with KB).

Life orb is obviously the standard z alternative for KB, but you can't really bluff with it.

The first thing that came to mind for me is expert belt, as kyu's coverage is good, especially with HP fire and it helps all moves both physical and special. And in my testing it worked fine, as the damage calcs is barely worse then LO and there's no recoil.

However, I've also considered quick claw. Because f*** it. KB can OHKO a lot of the faster offensive pokemon that come in to revenge it with supereffective hits or at least deal fat damage to them if it randomly goes first. It's only 20% chance but it can absolutely swing or instawin a game. That said, this is pretty hard to test considering it's just random.

I was wondering if anyone else has given thought to alternative items to Z/LO on KB and could suggest me some. Or if they've tested/what they think about expert belt/quick claw. If anyone has any teams that implement KB with nonstandard item choices or tournament replays that would be even better.
Lum Berry allows you to switch into Toxapex, Gliscor, and Heatran easier. Choice items can be used to increase strength or speed, too, but make it less of a bluff and more of a commitment. Realistically though Kyurem-B is meant to break with Z more than anything else in this metagame, so I’m not sure how easy it it to explore other avenues.

Also, LO KB hasn’t been worth it for a while now as being SR weak and taking LO is very hard to justify as a primary breaker.
 
Lum Berry allows you to switch into Toxapex, Gliscor, and Heatran easier. Choice items can be used to increase strength or speed, too, but make it less of a bluff and more of a commitment. Realistically though Kyurem-B is meant to break with Z more than anything else in this metagame, so I’m not sure how easy it it to explore other avenues.

Also, LO KB hasn’t been worth it for a while now as being SR weak and taking LO is very hard to justify as a primary breaker.
Hey finch, big fan (new videos when ;-;) thanks for the fast response.

I'm not really up to date with the current meta, do you know where I can find the SMPL and Smogon tour replays? The SMPL replays thread has only the week 1 games, and the Smogon tour replays are the final rounds only.

Speaking of Tour, the only Smogon Tour game that has a public available replay with KB was ox v Tace. In that game if ox had the same team with z koko and, say, expert belt on KB pex dies instantly to koko, tspikes don't go up, and it's an entirely different game, arguably favoring ox.

The window I have into the metagame is limited to a handful of replays and laddering, neither is really *that* reflective. Would it be possible for you to please share some teams? I understand if you can't share your own because of tour but I assume you have some you can share from scouting your opps and stuff?

FINCHTOUR33 its ur year man
 
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Finchinator

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I'm not really up to date with the current meta, do you know where I can find the SMPL and Smogon tour replays? The SMPL replays thread has only the week 1 games, and the Smogon tour replays are the final rounds only.
I'd search up the players names or the week thread, where they likely link replays in their win posts for SMPL. For reg season tours, only the finals and semis games are linked, but every ST playoff replay will be publicized, so I'd keep your eyes open for that!
The window I have into the metagame is limited to a handful of replays and laddering, neither is really *that* reflective. Would it be possible for you to please share some teams? I understand if you can't share your own because of tour but I assume you have some you can share from scouting your opps and stuff?
PM me, I'd be happy to share a bunch.
FINCHTOUR33 its ur year man
thanks boss
 

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