Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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I'd like to echo the suggestions that Gothitelle be ranked, probably around C. With Marshadow keeping Pokemon from setting up nearly as often, she has more targets to reliably trap, and in my experience her niche is on a team that need a consistent answer to Support forms of Arceus. She also counters the majority of stall/passive 'mons (e.g. Toxapex) and any Tapu Lele sets running Nature's Madness over Shadow Ball. I currently run:

Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Rest
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind

...which, for reference, is the same set In The Hills posted a couple months ago. I don't claim to be an expert at these things, but she really seems to have legs. I've included links to a pair of matches that display the set in action, but I warn you in advance that they're very, very, very boring.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-625183583

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-625338243
 

Lacus Clyne

Given-Taken
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion

As someone who has used Gothitelle quite often I can ensure you that its good but people tend to overhype it. The first thing that comes to our mind when using Gothitelle is the potential to trap most support Arceus and many other passive Pokémon. Everyone knows that the meta is kinda more passive because of Marshadow which is the reason why Gothitelle is so good right now. In addition to that Gothitelle usually has enough space to use a fourth move which makes it able to trap another Pokémon who shouldn't normally be trapped. Common examples are Charm for trapping stuff like Ferrothorn or Taunt for phazers like Lugia.

Now this all sounds gucci but people forget the flaws of Gothitelle. First weakness is the match up against HO. Gothitelle automatically becomes dead weight and you can only use it as a sac or cancel a SD set up 1v1 if you are using Charm. Another weakness is the current meta. People realized that Defog Arceus is not the only Defog user and started using stuff like Defog Salamence or Giratina which can't be trapped. Lastly is the trapping potential. Would a good player really let you trap his/her stuff that easily? Sure you can force the switch by utilizing stuff like SR but in the end your opponent can also make a few predictions and switch in an offensive Pokémon against Gothitelle for free damage.

I personally think that Gothitelle should be in B+ since its way too MU reliant.
 
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The thing is that goth is so effective at the favorable match ups. So, it frees up the niches for your remaining five Pokemons.
 
it's been a while. With Snake Draft round 1 coming up in a couple of days, we felt it was a good time to get another update in. The VR council also has a new addition in Omfuga!

As usual, we went over all of the noms since the last update and came to a conclusive list of changes. There were also some internal nominations by the council to keep things a bit closer to reality.

Update List:

Marshadow: A >> A+
Ho-Oh: A >> A+
Deoxys-A: A >> A-
Ferrothorn: B+ >> A-
Mega Diancie: Unranked >> B+
Arceus-Normal: A- >> B+
Mega Scizor: B >> B+
Mega Blaziken: B+ >> B-
Arceus-Poison: C+ >> B-
Arceus-Flying: D >> B-
Gothitelle: Unranked >> B-
Mega Metagross: C+ >> B-
Mega Kangaskhan: C >> C-

You may have noticed that there were no real indication of subrank placement, and the lack of Pokemon in the mid A rank after the movements. We (the VR council) are going to attempt to properly sort out the sub rankings in a large sweep in hopes of better accuracy and to prevent "pile ups" in specific ranks like A- and B+. This will hopefully be done ASAP - just consider the inside of the subranks to be placeholders for the time being. There will likely be another decently sized update to sort out the issues in the coming days. This also means that some Pokemon are likely to move ranks again in the subrank update. Ideally, we would sort this out and post it alongside this update, but the issues didn't make themselves known until after we had voted on the movements, and this thread has been starved of official updates long enough. Expect another follow up soon™!
 
Here few things i think about the rises and falls in the viability rankings in this current state of the ubers meta.
1. Marshadow A to A+: marshadow is one of the best pokemon at pressure all the ubers playstyles. The combinations of godlike typing great atk and speed makes it great at pressuring sweepers on offensive teams and pressuring walls on defensive teams. It basically shifted the metagame it self so i agree with it being a+ because it still has its checks and counters.
2. Ho-oh A to A+: Ho-oh just gets better and better, it checks numerous pokemon with its defensive set thats rising in usage shown here:
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Toxic
- Recover
Also it remains a great offensive mon as well wearing down walls with strong brave birds and sacred fire burns.
3. Ferrothorn B+ to A- Not much to say here with the rise of z geo xern this gen and primal kyorge becoming better as a result of marshadow;ferrothorn becomes more viable as a check to many pokemon such as kyorge, xern, and many more while being able to use spikes.
4. Deoxys-A A to A- probably due to the rise of marshadow but this mon is still a good wallbreaker/nuke and the best psyspam pokemon by far.
5. Mega Diancie unranked to B+ It was recently released so it makes sense that it rose from unranked to b+. Its good coverage and speed tier gives it the niche as ubers offensive magic bounce user. earth powering weakened groudons and checking non-eq mega mence is always great.
The rest of the rise and falls are justified by what marshadow beats and what it doesnt. i also know this was released a bit late so not all the changes reflect the future. P.s: feel free to reply to this with advice and i hope you have a great day.
 
Marsh outspeeds and can do some serious damage with either HP Ice or Rock Tomb, so it's not very reliable. Especially with stealth rocks.
Marshadow only does 66.1% to Flyingceus, and that's assuming Arceus doesn't invest in HP at all; HP Ice is even weaker. Being able to take a single hit and OHKO back with STAB Judgment is precisely the definition of a check.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Alright, I have some noms:
Regular Blaziken to D - I'd never use this in the current meta. It's pretty weak unless you run an attack-boosting nature, which is easily killed by the rising Scarf users in this meta (Yveltal & Xerneas) even after a boost. Stall teams with Ho-oh and Toxapex completely laugh at it, as it normally runs HP Ice to defeat Zygarde. Its 4MSS is becoming extremely apparent and this, combined with being a bit too slow, means that it's pretty much always outclassed by its Mega form.
Kyogre (regular) to C (above Phero)- This is rising vs all the hot new stall teams that don't run Pdon. They're pretty much steamrolled by the incredibly powerful Water Spout. It appreciates the rise in Ho-oh and Groundceus of late. It's pretty bad in other matchups, but with its best MU rising and it completely running it over, it's definitely better than Kyurem-White (which only fits on webs and even then situationally), Dragonceus (terrible supportceus form) and Phero (which just sucks).
I might write some more noms later but this is it for now.
 
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Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
disagree with kyogre nom. these teams still have chansey or/and ferrothorn or/and giratina-a.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 229-271 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 145-171 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina in Rain: 183-216 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
those aren't gonna get to switch in. In addition, Gengar-Mega can trap Chansey and with max SpA and Spe, Giratina-A.
 
eh, the reason why primal kyorge rose is because most of its checks shown above are beaten by marshadow opening it up a bit more. The defensive set is gaining popularity and the offensive set is pretty good as well. also thats probably why regular kyorge rose as well despite [primal groudon being on every team. marshadow helps open many doors for pokemon don't usually see in the ubers metagame and is just a great offensive pokemon so i can see why that rose as well.
 
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 229-271 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 145-171 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina in Rain: 183-216 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
those aren't gonna get to switch in. In addition, Gengar-Mega can trap Chansey and with max SpA and Spe, Giratina-A.
thanks for proving my point.
 
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 229-271 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 145-171 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina in Rain: 183-216 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
those aren't gonna get to switch in. In addition, Gengar-Mega can trap Chansey and with max SpA and Spe, Giratina-A.

Specs is required in order to 2HKO Blissey and Ferro

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 393-463 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
thanks for proving my point.
Got the calcs wrong, here it is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 343-405 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 393-463 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina in Rain: 275-324 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah, pretty much all the "switch-ins" you cited die. Hence, these pdon-less stall teams - which are becoming increasingly prevalent - are pretty much entirely destroyed by it. Definitely deserves a ride to at least above phero.

I get that you're a good player but you came across as rude and arrogant. Please don't be so hostile.
 
Got the calcs wrong, here it is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 343-405 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 393-463 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Giratina in Rain: 275-324 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah, pretty much all the "switch-ins" you cited die. Hence, these pdon-less stall teams - which are becoming increasingly prevalent - are pretty much entirely destroyed by it. Definitely deserves a ride to at least above phero.

I get that you're a good player but you came across as rude and arrogant. Please don't be so hostile.
having status in this community does not require me to be nice. specsogre is indeed a threat to these specialized stall teams, however it is completely outclassed by pogre. pogre is capable of pulling off the same stuff with far more usefulness. i believe that kyogre should remain the same rank as a niche cleaner
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
having status in this community does not require me to be nice. specsogre is indeed a threat to these specialized stall teams, however it is completely outclassed by pogre. pogre is capable of pulling off the same stuff with far more usefulness. i believe that kyogre should remain the same rank as a niche cleaner
But that's not what your original argument was. Cmon man, have some humility. Just because someone isn't in your ebin tour/auth circlejerk doesn't mean their opinion counts less than yours.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Mega Gengar: A+ --> A

Mgar's viability has without a doubt dropped since the release of Marsh and the VR should reflect that. It just doesn't work as well and isn't as splashable as it was in ORAS and pre-Marsh SM. Its role as a check to Extremekiller and SD Ghostceus is no longer relevant, as those 2 mons are barely used due to Marsh. Its role as a trapper is less relevant, since Goth traps Supportceus much better. Its role as a fast revenge killer is less relevant, as 9/10 times Marsh can do it better. Obviously it's still viable and can do good damage against a number of teams but it's certainly not as viable as say Marshadow or Yveltal, mons that can fit onto pretty much any offensive teams without a second thought.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
specsogre is indeed a threat to these specialized stall teams, however it is completely outclassed by pogre. pogre is capable of pulling off the same stuff with far more usefulness. i believe that kyogre should remain the same rank as a niche cleaner
Alright, this is just straight-up wrong.
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 289-342 (45 - 53.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO'
It does nab the 2HKO vs the other threats, but it has to set-up first, which can lead to it getting statused and the opponent in general getting a turn to play around it. It also has to use its coverage moves vs them, which means that other threats could potentially switch-in. Specs Kyogre isn't even a cleaner lol. It's a wallbreaker that hits extremely hard right off the bat without having to set-up, and even then doing more damage than a +1 Primal-Kyogre. And btw, it's not like I'm nomming it to A+ or something, I'm just saying C.

Having status doesn't require you to be nice but it doesn't exempt you from having basic respect. It's obvious that you were just being arrogant, and that you didn't even know what Specs Kyogre's main role was lol, or what advantages it had over Primal-Kyogre. Please don't be so arrogant.

Anyways, I'm going to back Gengar-Mega down to A. This new meta is just not friendly for it at all. Groundceus has been on the rise, along with defensive Pdon, both of which are just really bad for it. It loses vs Yveltal and Marshadow too, which sucks in this metagame. Gothitelle rising also gives it competition. Gengar provides less defensive and offensive utility in this meta and is certainly not on the level of the other A+ mons rn. I can see it in the same rank as Pogre and Mega Luke tbh.

About A- and B+ being overcrowded, I agree some things could drop. Lunala in this metagame isn't looking too hot. Marshadow makes it pretty much deadweight, but other trends aren't the greatest either. Ho-oh rising is super bad as well, as well as Yveltal. It's not the breaker it once was, and Z-Hypnosis is also falling off pretty badly. This probably is the biggest thing I see wrong with B+, and it should drop down to B for sure.
 
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this is why i dont post in this thread often. you correctly assume that pogre has cm and neglects the fact that stallbreaking pogre would also have... sub. chansey cannot do anything to a subcm pogre and gets btfo by preceding boosts beyond +1.

But that's not what your original argument was. Cmon man, have some humility. Just because someone isn't in your ebin tour/auth circlejerk doesn't mean their opinion counts less than yours.
if your opinions were right then they would be valid.
 
Here's the "followup" post I referenced in the last update. I say followup, but this one is a much larger set of changes that I cannot actually put into a change log. Essentially, the VR council all came together in another spreadsheet and put down our own versions of the VR in order to sort out the awkward subranks, and gives us an excuse to fully sweep the ranks to see if any additional changes needed to be made. Once everyone's results came in, Omfuga spent a long amount of time doing the math to calculate the average positions of the VR council's personal ranks to have a finished list which is what you can now see in the OP, so shoutouts to him! Each Pokemon now should be ideally placed in the eyes of the council, which hopefully helps everyone out moving forward.

I'll have two hide tags, one with the old VR, and the other with the new to make it easier to see what has changed, because quite a lot of things have moved in some way. The new VR section also has a note of what the average scores were for all the Pokemon for anyone interested. Any questions and discussion regarding changes are more likely to get answers in our Ubers Discord!

S Rank
S+

Primal Groudon

S

Xerneas
Arceus-Ground

A Rank
A+
Mega Gengar
Mega Salamence
Marshadow
Ho-Oh
Yveltal

A

Mega Lucario
Primal Kyogre

A-

Arceus-Water
Arceus-Fairy
Celesteela
Deoxys-A
Giratina-O
Zygarde-C
Rayquaza
Mega Sableye
Ferrothorn
Toxapex

B Rank
B+
Lugia
Arceus-Normal
Deoxys-S
Lunala
Dialga
Excadrill
Mega Diancie
Mega Scizor

B
Tapu Lele
Mega Mewtwo Y
Blissey
Chansey
Arceus-Dark
Tyranitar
Magearna
Alolan Muk
Giratina
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Gyarados

B-
Palkia
Clefable
Bronzong
Mega Blaziken
Mega Mewtwo X
Skarmory
Gothitelle
Buzzwole
Landorus-T
Arceus-Ghost
Cloyster
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Flying
Shaymin-S
Smeargle
Klefki
Mega Metagross

C Rank
C+
Arceus-Rock
Zekrom
Dugtrio
Arceus-Electric
Shuckle
Ditto
Darkrai
Tapu Koko
Solgaleo

C
Mewtwo
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Steel
Aegislash
Landorus
Pheromosa
Arceus-Dragon
Kyurem-W

C-
Kyogre
Mega Kangaskhan
Arceus-Grass
Blaziken
Genesect

D Rank

Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Psychic
Deoxys
Deoxys-D
Groudon
Reshiram

Quick note: the number in the brackets represents the average score from all the VR council members. Each pokemon was given a number based on where a person placed it in their own personal rankings (Primal Groudon at #1 meant 1, Xerneas at #2 meant 2, etc) - the average placement of everyone was used to order the sub ranks and make any new movements.

S Rank

S+

Primal Groudon (1)

S

Xerneas (2)
Arceus-Ground (3.33)

A Rank
A+

Mega Gengar (3.667)
Marshadow (5.33)
Mega Salamence (6.33)
Ho-Oh (6.66)

A

Yveltal (7.833)
Primal Kyogre (8.83)
Zygarde-C (10.33)
Mega Lucario (10.67)

A-

Celesteela (12.833)
Arceus-Water (13)
Arceus-Fairy (14.1677)
Giratina-O (14.3333)
Rayquaza (16)
Deoxys-A (17.833)
Ferrothorn (18.33)
Mega Sableye (18.5)
Toxapex (19.166)

B Rank

B+

Lugia (21)
Mega Scizor (22.33)
Arceus-Normal (23)
Deoxys-S (25.166)
Dialga (25.8333 - TIE)
Lunala (25.8333 - TIE)
Excadrill (26.66)
Mega Diancie (27.167)

B

Magearna (30)
Blissey (30.167)
Tapu Lele (32)
Arceus-Dark (32.33)
Chansey (32.66)
Mega Mewtwo Y (33.6)
Giratina (34.33)
Tyranitar (34.5)
Mega Gyarados (37.1667)
Arceus-Flying (40)
Bronzong (40.33)

B-

Alolan Muk (42.167)
Gothitelle (42.33)
Smeargle (43.83)
Skarmory (44.33)
Cloyster (45)
Clefable (45.5)
Landorus-T (46)
Arceus-Ghost (46.5)
Mega Tyranitar (47.5)
Arceus-Poison (47.8333)
Mega Blaziken (48)
Mega Mewtwo X (49.166)
Mega Metagross (50.5)
Shaymin-S (50.8333)

C Rank

C+

Arceus-Dragon (55.166)
Buzzwole (55.83)
Shuckle (56.8333)
Solgaleo (57.1666)
Klefki (58.33)
Ditto (58.5)
Dugtrio (61.33)
Palkia (63.33 - TIE)
Mewtwo (63.33 - TIE)
Aegislash (63.33 - TIE)
Zekrom (64)

C

Arceus-Rock (65)
Kyogre (65.166)
Darkrai (68)
Arceus-Ice (68.33 - TIE)
Landorus (68.33 - TIE)
Tapu Koko (68.83)
Kyurem-W (69)
Arceus-Steel (69.166 - TIE)
Arceus-Electric (69.166 - TIE)

C-

Mega Kangaskhan (72.5)
Arceus-Grass (73.33)
Genesect (75)

D Rank - This wasn't ordered (because it isn't ordered in the first place), but two Pokemon where majority voted into this rank in the spreadsheet, so Blaziken and Pheromosa have a new home!

Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Psychic
Blaziken
Deoxys
Deoxys-D
Groudon
Pheromosa
Reshiram

This was a decent amount of work on the council's part, so I hope it is well received by you all!
 

Aberforth

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The day when orch got completely ignored by the VR council, making him look like a dick for the last 10 posts or so.

Bit of a nitpick but I feel like Celesteela and Arceus water might deserve moving up to A, both to even out the ranks a little bit and because they probably do about as much for a team as Mega Luke does, just in a different way. Been really enjoying Celesteela lately and its put teams on its back massively sometimes. But yeah that's just a nitpick, doesn't actually effect the order of mons in terms of viability.

I am however surprised by how low Gothitelle is. Alongside mons like Skarmory and Alolan-Muk doesn't really do justice to how effective and threatening it can be in the right matchups. I'd be curious to see why the council thinks it's as low as it is, as that is one mon I had pegged going up at least a rank to sit alongside pokemon like Blissey and Bronzong. It might be effective in fewer matchups, however it is incredibly effective in the ones where it is effective, moreso than they are, imo.
 

Ropalme1914

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I agree with Goth rising. It's probably always the MVP on the matches where the matchup is good for it, and it's not like those matchups are uncommon. It can pressure entire builds, and even some Pokémon from the B ranks cannot do that (only Magearna from the top of my head can be a huge pain against psyspam teams).

Also, I would appreciate if the council could say why Gengar was put on A+ instead of S. Its score is way closer to Groundceus than it is to Marshadow, and he was actually the only Pokémon that was put above him (not counting Pdon and Xerneas, of course). Their score looks like the same case as Mega Mence and Ho-Oh, but those two were put on A+.
 
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