Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

[Freeroamer]

You're also looking at the issue a little one-dimensionally in that you're just focusing on whether it gained new answers. Yes Xern gained a moderately viable new check in Magearna, however SM has also seen the prevalence of Dark types rise, which is obviously a positive factor for Xern given that it beats both Arceus-Dark and Yveltal under normal conditions provided it's played reasonably well. It's also gained a new set in it's Z set, which increases it's versatility and threat at a teambuilder level, because a lot of Xern checks that can help vs standard Geomancy can fall a little cold against the Z set. Xerneas is still one of the most limiting factors on teambuilding in Ubers without a doubt and manages to combine that offensive threat with reasonable defensive utility, and as such fully deserves it's place in S Rank.

 

[Bl00dblade]

Nominating Xerneas S--> A+. I find that Xerneas this gen has AT LEAST 3 new threats to deal with, Magearna, Solgaleo, and Lunala, which make its run for the classic GeoXern to be much less effective. Magearna can steal stat boosts on top of that it has immense bulk, Solgaleo is NEVER ko'd by a +2 Power Herb Xerneas, and Specs Lunala generally just beats Xerneas. If anything, Xerneas is caught between trying to break through too many Pokemon with so many counters this gen to be considered as good as it was last gen.

What exactly are you talking about? None of those Pokemon can switch in on Xerneas, and most of them need to constantly have most of their health so that Xerneas doesn't OHKO them. Magearna can check, but it doesn't take a +2 Focus blast, or a +2 Hidden Power Ground well, and you need to have godlike prediction to know that it even is a power herb set, since Xerneas has many viable sets. Solgaleo is 2HKO by Focus blast and HP Ground, unless it runs an assault vest for whatever reason(Even then, it take little prior damage for Xerneas to 2HKO). Lunala can only 2HKO Xerneas, even with Psyshock. Meanwhile, Xerneas can OHKO Lunala with Moonblast if Shadow shield is down(it most likely will be), and even with Shadow shield up, a +2 Moonblast is a 2HKO on Lunala.

 

[oversway]

What exactly are you talking about? None of those Pokemon can switch in on Xerneas, and most of them need to constantly have most of their health so that Xerneas doesn't OHKO them. Magearna can check, but it doesn't take a +2 Focus blast, or a +2 Hidden Power Ground well

That's not the right way to look at it, as literally every Xerneas check outside of the blobs takes a decent chunk from a +2 attack. Magearna and Solgaleo can take +2 hits and neuter GeoXern; once Xerneas's Power Herb or Z-Crystal has been consumed, its effectiveness as a sweeper considerably diminishes. The point of using Magearna or Solgaleo as a Fairy-resist is so they can switch into Xerneas and check it when necessary.

 

[SuperWumbology]

B+ -> A-

I honestly don't know why Rayquaza gets moved down every single time (probably bc my bias towards this mon is literally infinite), but it keeps getting better with each generation. Its matchup against offense is slightly worse than before, with more overcrowding of the base 95-99 Speed tier and more support Arceus formes running extra Speed to creep Timid Xern/Ygod, but other than that this thing is still a monster. Basically MixQuaza snaps bulky offense and balance in half, and the most notable new defensive threats that got introduced, such as Celesteela, Zygarde, etc get destroyed by Draco Meteor, and Choice Scarf users are extremely limited. The increased absence of Defog users with the Latis gone highlights Rayquaza's ability to keep hazard removers pressured, limiting effective removal support that checks it to around 4 Arc formes and greatly helps suicide leads such as Cloyster and Deo-S. PDon's continued relevance also gives Rayquaza more opportunities to fit on teams due to its Ground immunity. Frankly, the only real competition Rayquaza has as a mixed wallbreaker is Deoxys-A, which has zero defensive utility and the rise of Darks and Steels heavily restricting its best method of damage, something that Rayquaza doesn't have to worry about considering it has one of the best STABs in the game. Also Lugia's usage is considerably lower than in ORAS due to Darks and Ghosts being more common, which means Rayquaza's best check isn't as effective as it was previously when factoring in Rayquaza's ability to keep Stealth Rock up. Rayquaza's ability to handle the ever-growing pool of tanks and walls effectively and the utility of its movepool and typing warrant a rise in my eyes.

 

[Bl00dblade]

That's not the right way to look at it, as literally every Xerneas check takes a decent chunk from a +2 attack. Magearna and Solgaleo can take +2 hits and neuter GeoXern; once Xerneas's Power Herb or Z-Crystal has been consumed, its effectiveness as a sweeper considerably diminishes. The point of using Magearna or Solgaleo as a Fairy-resist is so they can switch into Xerneas and check it when necessary.

Your right. That is the point of a Xerneas check, I just don't find them to be the most reliable (But then again, I can't really think of a reliable Xerneas check). They are both decent Xerneas checks. I actually didn't know that there was no Pokemon that could switch in to Xerneas without taking a good chunk(I take back what I said about assault vest Solgaleo. I didn't know that assault vest Solgaleo can actually switch in on Xerneas at +2. It takes about 30% from Moonblast and Focus blast does 34.3-40.6%, while Solgaleo is able to 2HKO Xerneas with Sunsteel strike. Probably not the most viable set, but it's good to know.)

 

[guan123]

What changed for Palkia that places it in B-? It was D-rank in ORAS Ubers. What does it do better now in SM Ubers, (primal groudon is still the best pokemon in the tier). Water is not a good offensive type due to the proliferation of primal groudon and it faces competition with primal kyogre as an offensive water. In addition, dragon is bad due to fairies everywhere (magearna and xerneas). Therefore, nominating it to drop at least to C+.

 

[Freeroamer]

Quite simply, the departure of Latios and Diancie, rise of Yveltal and the introduction of Lunala meant it's Speed tier became a lot more valuable in the metagame. In particular the loss of Latios means Palkia now takes on the role of specially attacking Dragon which can also check Kyogre. In all honestly while these changes don't seem significant, they're all positive and Palkia received very few negatives in SM, although it must be said a lot of the flaws that accompanied it in ORAS are still there, meaning it was worth a rise but it never going to trouble the top rankings, leading to it's place in B-.

 

[SuperWumbology]

Z-Heal Block is also a very major reason as to why Palkia has risen in viability so much. Due to the Latis and Diancie being gone, Z-Heal Block Palkia can set up on and threaten almost every single balance mon in the meta with the exception of some support Arceus formes, which can run more Speed to creep Timid Palk, but Palkia can still threaten common support Arcs such as Arc-Water and Arc-Ground and Heal Block prevents them from stalling it out with Toxic. Though Palkia's initial flaws from ORAS are still apparent and it's become more mono-dimensional, it's rather difficult to directly check outside of outspeeding it, and its ability to break balance and offensively check Primal Kyogre are really valuable traits for teams to have, justifying its rank in B-.

 

[guan123]

Quite simply, the departure of Latios and Diancie, rise of Yveltal and the introduction of Lunala meant it's Speed tier became a lot more valuable in the metagame. In particular the loss of Latios means Palkia now takes on the role of specially attacking Dragon which can also check Kyogre. In all honestly while these changes don't seem significant, they're all positive and Palkia received very few negatives in SM, although it must be said a lot of the flaws that accompanied it in ORAS are still there, meaning it was worth a rise but it never going to trouble the top rankings, leading to it's place in B-.

Oh I see. Rescinding my nomination. Thank you for telling me. I wonder if anyone used Palkia in a high level match and it worked.

 

[bluecooljay14]

What moved Reshiram to rank C this gen? It was D last gen but it has moved up. Is there any reason to use it over White Kyurem as an offensive dragon type?

 

[aurora]

What moved Reshiram to rank C this gen? It was D last gen but it has moved up. Is there any reason to use it over White Kyurem as an offensive dragon type?

Reshiram can contribute a bit more to teams as a wallbreaker this generation thanks to its Bloom Doom set, which takes advantage of its access to Solar Beam to give Reshiram a one-time 190 Base Power Grass-type move that can cleave through balance team staples, such as Arceus-Water and Primal Kyogre. It still isn't that great, but this gives it a big enough niche for it to move up to C. Kyurem-W is still sliiiiiiiightly better because Ice Beam makes it less prediction-reliant and it's a touch faster, but eh.

 

[41gguy]

Your right. That is the point of a Xerneas check, I just don't find them to be the most reliable (But then again, I can't really think of a reliable Xerneas check). They are both decent Xerneas checks. I actually didn't know that there was no Pokemon that could switch in to Xerneas without taking a good chunk(I take back what I said about assault vest Solgaleo. I didn't know that assault vest Solgaleo can actually switch in on Xerneas at +2. It takes about 30% from Moonblast and Focus blast does 34.3-40.6%, while Solgaleo is able to 2HKO Xerneas with Sunsteel strike. Probably not the most viable set, but it's good to know.)

tbh if you let a Xern actually get a Geomancy up without touching it, you're gonna lose a Pokemon. Flat out. That's #1.

#2, you don't switch a Solgaleo into a Xern that has set up, that makes no sense. You switch it into a Xern as soon as you see a Xern on the opponents side, so if it does set up, you can tank the next hit it throws and proceed to KO or cripple. If the Xern does not set up on the Solg, and proceeds to weaken with a rogue moonblast, Solg can recover off the damage with Morning Sun.

#3 either way, the best thing about a Xern check is that after it has its Geomancy, it only needs to be checked once. Lets say you sack a Pokemon, then throw Solg in to fight Xerneas. Either way, you beat his Xern strat now, and the sweep stops right there.

 

[Deussol]

I disagree with Zygarde-C dropping. It can check many threats in Ubers including Primal Groudon, MegaMence, Extreme Killer, Ho-oh, Yveltal, and almost every single Arceus form, and can deal with them pretty decently, all while not being complete Mega Gengar bait. I myself haven't had too much trouble transforming into the complete forme, although I am relatively low ladder atm.(Besides, Zygarde-50 can still do Zygarde-Cs job) I don't think that Zygarde-C should drop to B+ right now, maybe in the future, but as of right now, I think that Zygarde-C is fine where it is.(Btw, sorry if this is crappy, currently on Mobile)

What Zygarde set does all of this? I rarely see zygarde past 1600 and when I do, its performance is pretty questionable. Zygarde-50 doesn't check half the shit on your list, either, takes 100 from +2 pdon, 100 from +1 msala, 80 from +2 ekiller, 70 from band ho-oh, 60 from strong bird yveltal. Unless you're using the subcoil set or another defensive set which is pretty much asking for xern to come in and punish you. Also, most support arceus carry ice beam, which hits for about 60.

Your reasoning for kyogre rising isn't very valid. Although kyogre and xurkitree both serve as powerfully special wallbreakers, the reason kyogre shouldn't rise is because not only does its choice specs set get cockblocked by the most common Pokémon in the tier, primal groudon, but in addition, there's little to no reason of justifying its usage over its primal forme, which can at least get past primal groudon by switching in after desolate land is up(though it can't directly switch into an attack).Xurkitree can(rarely)get past primal groudon if it manages to land a z-hypnosis and set up a tail glow in the process, but primal groudon has to be weakened. Kyogre is probably going to remain in d rank because it is in Ubers so it must be placed on a ranking but it has no usability in the metagame.

Yeah, gotta disagree here. The reason to use Kyogre is exactly the same as Xurkitree; both hit pdon for about the same with their coverage moves (ice beam hits pdon for ~38 with kyogre and hp ground with xurk hits for ~40). And yeah, nobody is gonna spam water spout before pdon is down. Does hitting a 60% accurate move actually count as getting past something any more than not using water spout until you chip pdon down?

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

What Zygarde set does all of this? I rarely see zygarde past 1600 and when I do, its performance is pretty questionable. Zygarde-50 doesn't check half the shit on your list, either, takes 100 from +2 pdon, 100 from +1 msala, 80 from +2 ekiller, 70 from band ho-oh, 60 from strong bird yveltal. Unless you're using the subcoil set or another defensive set which is pretty much asking for xern to come in and punish you. Also, most support arceus carry ice beam, which hits for about 60.



Yeah, gotta disagree here. The reason to use Kyogre is exactly the same as Xurkitree; both hit pdon for about the same with their coverage moves (ice beam hits pdon for ~38 with kyogre and hp ground with xurk hits for ~40). And yeah, nobody is gonna spam water spout before pdon is down. Does hitting a 60% accurate move actually count as getting past something any more than not using water spout until you chip pdon down?

How is the reason the exact same? Specs Kyogre is a hit and run attacker, while xurkitree is more of a one time sweeper. They thrive against different kinds of teams, and that's assuming they even succeed. Kyogre is a pain for offensive teams, and while xurkitree does get a speed boost from z-hypnosis, offensive teams always have scarfers to deal with it, leaving slower teams its best shot at sweeping against. The two perform different roles-kyogre is a wallbreaker, while xurkitree is a setup sweeper, even though its damage output is similar to that of a wallbreakers'. Also, most supportceus don't carry ice beam, the main one that does is water, even then you're better off carrying toxic to catch primal groudon.

 

[MajoraInAFedora]

Nominating Wobbuffet C+ to B- or B:

I don't know how the current inavailability of Custap Berry can be almost solely responsable for the almighty Dong's drop into the recesses of C rank, below Dugtrio of all Pokemon. Sure, its aversion to the popular Dark and Ghost types hurt it, because it cannot touch them, but most teams it finds itself on feature Xerneas which can eat the Dark types that Wobbuffet abhors. In return, Wobbuffet can give Xerneas and other setup sweepers it finds itself paired with (even Blaziken! I'd like to see Blaziken move up, but I shall not dwell on C ranks forever) a free setup, which is absolutely disgusting. People may argue that it competes with Gengar for a trapping spot, but they, when paired, force your opponent to be extremely careful when switching, because at any moment one of the two could come in, trap, and remove their Pokemon. This duo was demonstrated well by one of Orch's old ORAS teams. Furthermore, it's typing finds some benefit this generation, as it allows it to halt Psychic Terrain cores. The loss of Custap does hurt, but with Leftovers its longevity is improved. If you are in range of a 2HKO, destiny bond immediately, and when they use a non damaging move, Encore. For a 3HKO, Encore immediately and then Counter/Mirror Coat. The loss isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Also nominating Rayquaza to go from B+ to A-, for all that Canman98 said. Look at the team building compendium and tell many how many threats Zygarde checks. Rayquaza's ability to break things, including Zygarde, should've kept it in A.

 

[lati0s]

I think steel Arceus should be at least B rank. CM steel arceus is really good

this set in particular

arceus-steel
252hp 4spa atk 252 spe

calm mind
recover
judgement
earth power

helped me get to #1 on the ladder recently and it swept tons of teams. This guy has so many opportunities to set up due to steels many resistances. His resistance to stealth rock plus immunity to toxic means he's hard to wear down so it's easy to set up multiple times in a game. Once groudon is in range to be killed by a +1 earth power a lot of teams just fold. This guy is also great against stall as a last pokemon standing since he's immune to toxic. I've faced stall teams even high on the ladder that I could have beaten even if I did't have any other pokemon on my team

 

[Wob]

Nominating Landorus-T to B+ or B

Honestly I don't see how you can possibly place this thing in the same rank as junk like Chansey and Xurkitree. Lando was A- at the end of ORAS, was there any reason for its drop? I would argue that it's only gotten better in the transition to SM. The combination of the Soul Dew nerf, Gengar losing levitate, and the Aerilate nerf mean that Ground-type immunities are less common than they were in ORAS, which means that Choice Scarf Earthquake is a lot easier to spam. I've been using it with Xern recently, and the two form a pretty nice core, with Landorus-T basically beating every Xerneas check with proper prediction (PDon, Ho-Oh, Solgaleo, Magearna etc.). In return, Xerneas checks some of the main threats to Landorus in Yveltal and Mence.

 

[Lacus Clyne]

Cloyster: B- to C+ or even below
Back in ORAS Cloyster used to be a great lead in order to set up Toxic Spikes / Spikes but that drastically changed in SM. With the increase of usage from poison types and Gengar losing levitate Toxic Spikes became really unviable. This means that you are pretty much forced to use Spikes in order to get some good use of this pokémon. Another important thing is the drop of Lati@s which basically means that either Arceus or Giratina-O will carry Defog. In most cases carries Arceus Defog and is bulky enough to tank hits (especially the popular Arceus-Water) which is making Cloyster really useless.

 

[oversway]

nominating Giratina-O to drop to A-

Imo Gira-O's viability as a defogger is not as good this gen. Lava Plume is probably the most common secondary attack on support don, and even with the nerf quickly wears Gira-O down and limits the number of times it can come into SR. Versus offense Gira-O has very limited utility, given how little it can safely switch in on, so in many cases you need to sack something just to remove hazards from the field. Increased presence of Ghost- and Dark-types put extreme pressure on it even with Darkrai's decrease in usage, and common staples such as Mega Lucario have a chance to 2HKO it on the switch even if running Jolly. It's a shaky ekiller answer at best, getting burnt or coming into SR twice removes its ability to check many ekiller variants effectively. Against balance matchups Gira-O is not much better, it needs to consistently be able to defog which support Arceus formes can do much more reliably.

 

[Hack]

Arc ground to A rank above Ho-oh. Hella versatile, good stall SR mon, good stall defog, good offensive SD that many balances and stalls are actually weak to.

Giratina-O to B+ below Ferro above Ray. It just isn't very good. Ghost weakness is embarrassing to build with and tox Pdon being like the best defensive set for it makes this mon not fun to use.

Chansey to B rank with Blissey. Easier to support now, sturdier check to stuff. It's neat to be able to take +2 break from ghostceus at times especially. Rule of thumb is you run sball Bliss without pursuit support, or you run Chansey with Muk, both ways are very acceptable for stallier foundations.

 

[AzureRaptor]

Arc ground to A rank above Ho-oh. Hella versatile, good stall SR mon, good stall defog, good offensive SD that many balances and stalls are actually weak to.

Giratina-O to B+ below Ferro above Ray. It just isn't very good. Ghost weakness is embarrassing to build with and tox Pdon being like the best defensive set for it makes this mon not fun to use.

Chansey to B rank with Blissey. Easier to support now, sturdier check to stuff. It's neat to be able to take +2 break from ghostceus at times especially. Rule of thumb is you run sball Bliss without pursuit support, or you run Chansey with Muk, both ways are very acceptable for stallier foundations.

Hack I'm interested in how you've felt running Muk with regards to the Poison Jab vs Clear Smog slot contention. Has there ever been a case where you'd prefer Clear Smog's blanket checking of Geo Xern over Jab's damage output?

 

[ZachyDaBoss]

Kyogre-Primal A- to S+

I know this is a massive rise but i think that Kyogre-Primal should be is S+ because of it taking a lot of use out of its ability by using moves like water spout, origin pulse and especially thunder having 100% accuracy. Although its ability dosen't really help in on the defensive side of things unlike groudon's, it can help by protecting hazard setters like forretress and ferrothorn and skarmory from fire type moves. It can additionally play a bulky role like Wolfe Glick's Kyogre when he won worlds in 2016 having these ivs: 204 HP/204 DEF/ 20 SPA/ 12 SPD/ 68 SPE. It broke apart mega-mence, garchomp, rayquaza, landorus and amoonguss alike with ice beam which are some of the biggest threats in the game while if it has its rain up it easily OHKOs Groudon whatsoever.

 

[Aberforth]

What you're thinking about is VGC. Ubers is a completely different meta, and in singles in a tier where Primal Groudon is the undisputed top dog, Primal Kyogre is not that good.

 

[shrang]

Can we drop Xurkitree lower? I know C+ is a low rank already but I don't even think it is even that tbh. This thing has quite a few problems, but I think the simplest way to explain is that it's highly matchup dependent - HO it for all intents and purposes auto-loses, and stall still has things like Blissey and Clefable that can deal with it. That leaves balance and BO, which it might be able to get a free setup opportunity or two. The problem is that even with a favourable matchup, you STILL need to hit Hypnosis otherwise it's very hard to get your Tail Glow. Hypnosis misses 40% of time sooooo. We have a Pokemon that is either useless if it's against the wrong matchup, but even when you have a favourable matchup, you still fail 40% of the time because of Hypnosis shenanigans. It also offers absolutely 0 in terms of defensive value, and even if you manage to pull of +1 Spe/+3 SpA it's not like there's no defense against it - you still need to watch out Scarfers and Ekiller or Deo-A or whatever. It's an extremely hit-and-miss Pokemon, and competitively speaking, the more consistent and splashable things are the better. This thing is the exact opposite of both consistent and splashable.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

How come Arcues-Dragon's considered B+? Is the metagame kinder to it this time around? I guess that and its Z-Outrage really hurt - it ties with Ghost for having the strongest physical attack.

Also, I think Arceus-Flying should be in C-/C personally - few Pokemon resist Flying type moves in Ubers, it's a great mono attacker, and unlike Dark Arceus it's not an invitation for Xerneas to come and set up. It does still face competition from Mega Salamence, who is usually better, although it doesn't fear burns and isn't weak to Fairy moves.