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Welcome to the SM UU Viability Ranking Thread, brought to you once again by yours truly! In a similar fashion to how things were done throughout the course of the last generation, I've assembled a group of knowledgeable UU players to help me sort out the preliminary rankings. This group will also help me going through nominations made in this thread, as well as metagame shifts caused by drops and successful retests. The group in question is subject to change though, and they're not the only people whose opinion I'll be consulting frequently.
So where do you come in? After the preliminary rankings have been worked out by our team, it's the community's duty to refine them in order to more accurately reflect the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame. Because our guesses will come before much meaningful experience using Pokemon will have occurred, we can't be accurate enough without your help. Post about the Pokemon that you have experience with, but try not to let your personal bias oversell any Pokemon.
The S tier contains a select few metagame-defining Pokemon, the best of the best, and the A tiers reflect on the Pokemon which are extremely effective but flawed in some aspects. The B tier is slightly more expansive, with the B+ tier representing Pokemon that are fairly common and threatening but don't quite make the cut for A-, while the B- tier represents Pokemon who fill minor, but relevant, niches. Below the B tier, the generic C tier displays the rest of the Pokemon that are usable in UU, but don't have a niche that is appreciated by most UU teams. Finally, the D rank will only include Pokemon that are tiered in UU by usage, but have no usability in the metagame. Furthermore, discussion on D-ranked Pokemon is NOT ALLOWED in this thread.
The UU Viability Ranking Council will be the same as the UU tiering council for now, but as I've mentioned before, this is prone to being changed in the future.
Ayo pearl beautiful banner and decent starting list, ill kick off the VR with a nom for you!
Cobalion @ Fightinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Taunt (with rocks)
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock / Rock Polish / Stone Edge / X-scissor / Volt-switch
If there is anything I learned in ORAS is that coba is stupidly splash-able and that still stands true in today's SM meta! Cobalion beats the most standard sets of 2/4 of the current S-rank mons as well as many of other mons in the tier, offers you stealth rocks, Access to SD and powerful nuke in Z-move, Great stabs that can become a threat with just a RP alone late game, and can be customised to your teams liking (I bet shuca is still great rn).
I easily see this as an A+ mon hell I wouldn't be opposed to S just based on how threatening it is at +2 with a z-move.
First nomination: Amoonguss to A-. I was talking with Killintime this morning while I was trying to build a team for ULT. For many Balance compositions, Amoonguss is an integral part to dealing with the tier's Water/Fairy powerhouses as well as Keldeo with large amounts of SpDef investment. Furthermore, given that Kingdra has dropped, Rain will undoubtedly become a much more prominent playstyle in the weeks to come, and having a Pokemon that can switch into these rain sweepers without fearing much (thanks to Regenerator), makes it worthy of A-.
Also, Spore is a neat shut-down tool for Offense, especially Rain Offense.
I'm rather new, so my word carries little weight. But I think Suicune shouldn't have dropped so far. Once the stronger electric-types and other wallbreakers on an opponent's team are gone, CroCune is still a monster. I can't even count the number of times it's reversed a 6-0 or a 5-0 loss into a 0-1 victory. It's also gotten me a lot of wins otherwise. I think Suicune should be moved from B to B+.
I also find it absurd that scizor is in S Rank, personally I've had little luck using it and have no trouble stopping it. I'd probably move Scizor from S rank to A+.
Again, I'm no pro, so don't take too much value into what I say, but I just thought I'd share. That's why we have forums, no?
Quit shitting on Dhelmise Smogon -.- And this list needs to be updated cause Haxorus and Kommo-o in the C rankings?? They deserve to be higher as they're excellent wallbreakers
Quit shitting on Dhelmise Smogon -.- And this list needs to be updated cause Haxorus and Kommo-o in the C rankings?? They deserve to be higher as they're excellent wallbreakers
Kommo-o is mostly outclassed by Hydreigon as a special wallbreaker, as it lacks an attack even close to being as spammable as dark pulse, has a lower speed tier that leaves it falling behind much more things than Hydra, giving it a worse matchup against offensive teams and even balance teams. It also has lower special attack than Hydreigon, causing it to miss out on some kos that hydra would get. All it has is fighting stab, which is inferior to dark stab imo especially when you rely on Focus Blast. As a dd user, haxorus hits harder and has better speed, which are more important than the bulk kommo-o has imo. I haven't really used Automise, but if I wanted a fast special attacker I would use something that doesn't need to set up to get speed, like Gengar or Latias, or use something that hits harder like Gengar or Hydra. I think Kommo-o is fine where it is.
Also, I'm pretty sure discussion on Dhelmise is not allowed FYI.
Edit: Calcs
Specs vs Hydreigon (timid hydra actually has more special attack than modest Kommo-O lol):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kommo-o Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 106-125 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 123-145 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kommo-o Flash Cannon vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 144-170 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
SD vs Haxorus:
+2 252 Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 272-322 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kommo-o Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 270-318 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 331-390 (82.5 - 97.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The fact that Hydra and Haxorus not only hit harder but are also faster really makes a huge difference, and when I'm looking for a wallbreaker, I want it to kill if I click the right move, and for a choice mon I want a spammable stab that I can throw out without drawback, which Kommo-O does not have. As I said in my post below, Haxorus is hardly an amazing mon, but if I want to use a niche physical wall breaker, I want it to at least have enough attack to kill shit and enough speed to not be complete dead weight against offensive teams, especially since both of the dragons I compared it to actually hit harder with a positive speed nature, and if they have a power boosting nature they hit quite a bit harder. Kommo-O should not rise imo, and should at least stay below Haxorus, which does the whole physical dragon thing much better because it actually kills shit without needing to use a z move. Kommo-O might have better bulk sure, but I'm not looking for bulk in a wallbreaker, and I will pick the faster and more powerful wall breaker any day of the week.
Kommo-o is mostly outclassed by Hydreigon as a special wallbreaker, as it lacks an attack even close to being as spammable as dark pulse, has a lower speed tier that leaves it falling behind much more things than Hydra, giving it a worse matchup against offensive teams and even balance teams. It also has lower special attack than Hydreigon, causing it to miss out on some kos that hydra would get. All it has is fighting stab, which is inferior to dark stab imo especially when you rely on Focus Blast. As a dd user, haxorus hits harder and has better speed, which are more important than the bulk kommo-o has imo. I haven't really used Automise, but if I wanted a fast special attacker I would use something that doesn't need to set up to get speed, like Gengar or Latias, or use something that hits harder like Gengar or Hydra. I think Kommo-o is fine where it is.
Also, I'm pretty sure discussion on Dhelmise is not allowed FYI.
Edit: on mobile atm, I'll post some calcs for hydra vs kommo when I get home
Hey y'all, let's leave Dhelmise alone as a topic. There's plenty to discuss about the VR without stressing about the anchor for now. If Dhelmise truly becomes a relevant part of UU down the road we can re-address its rank then but for now, let's move on.
Further discussion about Dhelmise until then will be deleted and, in the case of repeat offenders, infracted.
On mobile right now but Dodrio definitely deserves to be ranked because it's a strong wallbreaker with SD Flyinium Z and finally has decent coverage and can run Quick Attack to kill faster stuff when weakened
I'm rather new, so my word carries little weight. But I think Suicune shouldn't have dropped so far. Once the stronger electric-types and other wallbreakers on an opponent's team are gone, CroCune is still a monster. I can't even count the number of times it's reversed a 6-0 or a 5-0 loss into a 0-1 victory. It's also gotten me a lot of wins otherwise. I think Suicune should be moved from B to A- or A.
I also find it absurd that scizor is in S Rank, personally I've had little luck using it and have no trouble stopping it. I'd probably move Scizor from S rank to A+.
Again, I'm no pro, so don't take too much value into what I say, but I just thought I'd share. That's why we have forums, no?
Crocune and many other bulky waters right now aren't too hot mostly because the tier has a lot of Bulky Water killers, most notably Thundurus, Raikou, and Celebi. Furthermore, Volcanion is a literal hard stop to non-Roar Suicune variants.
Scizor is actually so splashable and so useful, I think S is a good spot for it right now. You can run it as a Utility pivot, sweeper, Revenge Killer, etc. Basically speaking, Scizor is quite splashable on various playstyles. S is perfectly fine.
In response to Hax + Kommo-o, both of them may be powerful, but are also extremely situational. Kommo-o's only redeeming quality is DD + Fightium Z, which makes it Sky Uppercut not suck garbage. Hax sits at a really bad Speed tier since it's 1 under Hydreigon (whose Scarf set is not rare), so DD is pretty bad. It also has pretty bad bulk to set up reliably. Basically, low bulk + lack of set-up opportunities.
Why Zydog is more Zydog should be A-.
1 : Is so good and fast, it can go to the extreme(speed)
2 : Good for making bird mons sit the fuck down.
3 : A DD can make it EXTRA SPEED
4 : It is green, which is the color of money, Krookodile isn't money.
5 : You can bring it out to be a nice archer.
6 : is more Zydog than Krookodile
7 : Is good and Dragon
8 : Won't eat u when u take it out for a walk
9 : Is a dog; dog is nicer than crocodile. "Krookodile is not dog therefore bad" - Bernie Sanders
10 : Krookodile is ground. Zydog is also Ground but Zydog is not a bitch.
Shoutout to Shay.
In all seriousness Zygarde 10% should be A-, Thousand Arrows is the most spammable move in the tier, and both DD and Choice Band are very nice win conditions. 115 is a great speed tier to sit in, and it can revenge frailer mons easily thanks to a combination of its speed tier, and faster mons (bar Mega-Dactyl) can be revenged by ESpeed after a little bit of chip damage.
Well I want to point out a lot of stuff before nominating:
- Both rotoms lost viability because the speed tier they are inserted in do not favor them. However, scarf rotom is still a great mon, and they are good electric options out of thundurus and raikou (which are the only 2 electric mons out of C- rank) I'd like to have replays on rotom using z-moves;
- Silvally is just a versatile mon, I don't expect it to be relevant into our meta;
- I feel like Mudsdale is missing both on the VRs and on the ladder, and 100/100 bulk + stamina might be interesting to use;
- Expected Alakazam to be at least A+ since its the faster non-mega or bird thing around and its z-moves haven't even been explored that much. The ability to switch into hazards and keep the focus sash is also of merit;
- I feel like the C+, C and C- ranks are a bit messy due to having a huge amount of mons spread trough them, and some are more or less viable within their own ranks. Idk if it would be too early to have a C1-C5 spread instead, or just not interesting due to the low relevance of the mons ranked as such, but wanted to state this anyway;
- Last but not least i was gonna nominate Necrozma for a rise but mew is so high on these VRs that made me wonder if its really worthy.
Nominating Whimsicott to C+
It's a really good option in terms of keeping momentum with U-turn and encore while also packing a punch on moonblast. It's in a very good speed tier now, and packs a bunch more utility as a whole than the rest of the C mons, making it easier to fit on a team.
Sylveon's not bad but it's heavily outclassed by Clefable defensively and Primarina offensively. Clef dropping in particular was a big blow; before that dropped I thought Sylv was fairly underrated, but now it's really hard to justify a slot on most teams.
Why is this ranked higher than stuff like Suicune (who remains a very solid win condition every team has to prepare for), Azelf (who is great on HO teams right now), and on par with the likes of Zydog and Forretress? It just doesn't make sense. If you really want to remove hazards so badly there's a whole plethora of options to choose from, each of who add a lot more to the team than spinning. You have Tentacruel, Mega Blastoise, Forretress, and Starmie if you want a spinner, all of which are far superior pokemon by themselves than Tsareena. For Defoggers, you have Latias, Togekiss, Empoleon, Mantine, Mandibuzz, Mew, Scizor, Decidueye, etc. I am at a loss to why you would use Tsareena over these pokemon on a team. All of these pokemon have more relevant resists, more bulk, more offensive power, or both.
Whenever I play against this pokemon it's incredibly underwhelming. Its bulk is decent but but the mono-Grass typing is not winning it any awards at switching into threats. Even in this strange meta, one of the main reasons to use a Grass-type on a team is to help with water types- And with its total vulnerability to Scald and its honestly weak Trop Kick, it cannot even do that reliably. It is actually very easy to switch into as well. Trop Kick + High Jump Kick do not even provide all that great coverage. It is total bait for Scizor and Gengar, not to mention fairly easy to take advantage of with Mew, Latias, Gliscor, Celebi, etc. In other words some of the most relevant threats in the meta.
Yeah you could run U-turn over High Jump Kick for momentum, but then you almost completely lack the ability to meaningfully damage steels whatsoever. And if you run it over Synthesis than you get worn down easier than pretty much every hazard remover besides Mega Blastoise.
The only saving grace of this pokemon is its ability to check Azumarill and Bisharp with its priority immunity. But honestly, I think that is what should keep it ranked at all, not give it the B+ ranking. It's okay to be hyped up for new toys, but we shouldn't let it blind us to how good a pokemon actually is.
On a more positive note....
Slowbro to B+
This pokemon is just really useful on any sort of balanced or defensive team. It is able to switch into and scout on a ton of the biggest threats in the tier right now. Aerodactyl, Cobalion, Keldeo, CB Azumarill (scout), Zygarde, and several other important pokemon. Unlike Hippowdon or Suicune though, for example, it loses far less momentum because of Regenerator. Because of its great typing and Regenerator, the work output it puts throughout the match is disproportional to a lot of other pokemon. Also you can run Colbur berry or a Z-item to deal with Dark-types just fine.
For example, Slowbro has an extra slot in its movepool due to only needing dual STABs and recover. Calm Mind can help it turn into an above average win condition, Future Sight works great with Regenerator and can give you free momentum, and Ice Beam can help deal with Gliscor to some extent. Fire Blast with Colbur allows you to actually check Bisharp and Scizor instead of the other way around, and T-wave is a great catch all for pokemon like Latias or Hydreigon that might be tempted to switch into you. All around a versatile mon which is deserving a slot on a lot of teams as a check to physical attackers. Yeah I know the current narrative is bulky waters are not all too hot since of Thundurus, Raikou, etc and that it does struggle heavily vs some common pokemon like Celebi. But it still is one of the most relevant physical walls in the meta and its sheer resilience lets it deserve more than a B ranking.
I wasn't even saying Haxorus was actually good, just that it's better than kommo-o. Physical Kommo-o really wants a better physical fighting stab, as without a z crystal sky uppercut is just not impressive, especially since its attack stat is not even that good, which means that you need either band or sd. Band suffers from being forced to lock into moves that can be taken advantage of easily, and sd suffers from its moves still not having enough power. It's just not good enough for even C+, never mind anything in the b ranks imo, and even though Haxorus may not be that good, I can definitely say it is much better as a physical wall breaker, and I can actually think of reasons to justify using it on a team because sd is actually pretty tough to wall because it has a really high attack stat that becomes downright absurd after an sd, and a case can be legitimately made to move it up to B- (not that I would rise it, but I could certainly see actual reasons that it could rise),unlike Kommo-O who I can't really find reasons to use because it's just outclassed in almost any way.
I have some stuff to say, unfortunately it could be a little messy or uneducated since i've been playing literally everything but SuMo UU until recently.
First off, I feel like kt's earlier point with Cobalion is pretty valid, one of the key flaws I found with coba in ORAS was its sometimes disappointing damage output, which benefits a huge deal from being able to grab those OHKOs it needs to with a z move. Being the best offensive Bisharp check in the meta is also a pretty huge thing to have going for it, a hole that a lot of balance or bulky offenses would typically have trouble filling. I'd say deserving of A+, a whole lot more going for it than it had in ORAS.
Feel like Hippowdon could also be A+ worthy, it can realistically be worth considering for a slot on virtually any team besides straight HO, and blanket checks a ton of threats that would usually be a pain for some bulkier teams like Gengar, Zydog, Cobalion, and Raikou/Voltturn in general. Its earthquake also hits pretty hard, keeping it from being total passive garbage, but at the same time lets a couple scary mons like Azu, Primarina, Grass knot Thundurus, and Keldeo in, while not having enough power to usually stop bulky Scizors or Gliscors from SDing in your face without Whirlwind (Toxic hippo is really nice imo). Usually brings much more to a team than it takes away in a majority of the battles I've had using it, so I thought it was a worthwhile discussion point.
-Some other cool stuff that I don't think I've used enough to have a solid opinion on :
Nidoqueen, probably the most consistent way an offense team has to beat Clefable, on top of walling thundy w/o hp ice. Faced it a couple times to find myself sorely lacking a good switchin.
Empoleon I have tried out but the whole team turned out kinda sub par, it's good for holding off Primarina and Latias for some bulkier teams which is always nice (and Kingdra now too!), having a defogger that can actually defog sometimes and doesn't hate doing it (CM Latias is disgusting give it a try) is nice, but at the same time being electric bait in a meta with Raikou and Thundurus makes it kinda lame.
Sharpedo was something I used a bit in beta that felt incredible. It dodged the banhammer once which at the time I thought banning it woulda been quite silly at the time, it's seems to me its becoming more and more ridiculous unless you have like 3 priority users or maybe a colbur celebi or something to bait a Crunch or something along those lines. The style of fat teams going around really don't have a solid answer to Water/Dark STAB and the addition of Psychic Fangs as an option to blow through a would-be check like Keld gave it a huge boost in power that it was sorely lacking in ORAS. The instant 105 speed is also insane, though if it does have the chance to get to +1 beforehand it doesn't seem like a huge buff in a lot of situations. Probably the biggest buff it got was immunity to Prankster moves, making t-wave from Thundy and Klefki a non-factor in determining stops to sharpedo sweeps at team matchup.
some honorable mentions that could probably be worthwhile discussion points in the future:
Gastrodon is kinda cool since a whole big portion of the tier is unable to hit it super effectively and walls non grass electrics pretty handily. Unfortunately I have yet to see anyone really use it well.
Bewear hits hard as hell while having a ridiculous ability to sponge a ton of physical hits thanks to fluffy, being able to 1v1 MAero clicking SE Tough Claws-boosted STAB probably speaks for itself. Probably needs some kind of voltturn support to get it in multiple times because even with 120 HP it seems like it might not last very long switching into spikes/u-turn/knock off/etc. Also with the same speed tier as Primarina, max speed adamant bear hits 1 point faster than Jolly Azu and can easily eat a +6 Aqua Jet, which is always worth noting.
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 158-188 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
People (myself included) aren't using Infernape enough, while nape has some problems with its sustainability, it does end up being an alright bisharp answer and has pretty much any coverage you could wish for like Thunder punch, a Hidden Power of your choice, Grass Knot, and even Gunk Shot, with that the potential to screw over a ton of potential checks. The 4MSS is a bit of an issue but it can probably be tailored to a multitude of teams' needs.
That's all I have to say for now, can't wait to see how the tier develops. At this point one has to admit that it's a pretty messy meta, but I've been having a lot more fun with it than I did with ORAS for the most part, in part due to how fun it is to abuse the busted stuff.
Lastly welcome back to VR threadership, Pearl and like most would agree, excellent banner n_______n
Trapping of any sort is very good right now, especially the ability to trap Steel-types. With Scizor and Coballion being run everywhere, being able to trap and KO these two Pokemon is insanely useful. It is also able to support two of the strongest set-up sweepers on the tier, Clefable and Latias, making it incredibly valuable to have on some teams. Its also just super powerful and Volt Switch is always nice to have as a pivot move. I feel that especially in the current metagame, Magneton deserves to be in A-
Nominating Seismitoad for C or C- rank. With Drizzle rain being allowed and at least 4 water pokemon frequently running choice items, Water Absorb is a great ability to have. Seismitoad is basically water-immune Swampert with a little less bulk. Access to Stealth Rock sets it apart from Gastrodon.
Nominating Ludicolo for C- rank. It's a Swift Swim abuser that beats bulky waters.
I also think Forretress should be B- rank. Scizor's presence in the tier is causing special attackers such as Celebi to run Hidden Power Fire instead of the usual coverage moves. Forry also can't get free turns versus defensive fairies now that Flamethrower Clefable is a thing.
Nominating Whimsicott to C+
It's a really good option in terms of keeping momentum with U-turn and encore while also packing a punch on moonblast. It's in a very good speed tier now, and packs a bunch more utility as a whole than the rest of the C mons, making it easier to fit on a team.
Seconding. It puts it great typing and speed to good use, being a neat offensive pivot to relevant threats like Hydreigon, Keldeo, Krook and Zydog. Besides keeping momentum with the aforementioned set, it can take on a more support-oriented role with Tailwind. There's a wealth of Pokemon in the tier that would benefit on a few turns of augmented speed to dominate opposing teams (Nidos, Volcanion, Primarina, etc.) which makes such support more relevant and valuable this time around.
Nominating Heracross for B-
I'd say the best set for Heracross right now would be Flame Orb + SD for its excellent wallbreaking prowess. This set really appreciates the burn nerf giving it more time to unleash Guts-boosted furies. It finds decent opportunities to set up with the inclusion of the bulky Ground-types in the tier, most notably Hippowdon and Gliscor. It just tears through defensive cores like a glowing 1000° knife on butter; physically-defensive walls fall to boosted Close Combats and resists gets mangled by Facade. With many great defensive Pokemon chilling in the tier, their efficient removal is of much value and SD Hera does just that.
Not as a Defogger, no. Decidueye is ranked as an offensive Swords Dance trapper with a powerful Ghost nuke in Sinister Arrow Raid. At least, that's what I've been hearing.
