SM UU Viability Ranking Thread

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Camila <3
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Clef absolutely deserves S if it's staying in this tier, though I'd much prefer to see it get banned soon. It's simply too versatile and too good with almost any possible set it could use. Between two fantastic abilities to choose from and a ridiculously good movepool, it's impossible to be completely safe against it. I've been messing around with a Cosmic Power + Stored Power set on one of my teams and it actually works wonders. Then there's the typical CM sets that have quite a few ways to go with. Even unaware Clef isn't a secure counter to opposing clef because Modest LO Moonblast, which is certainly a viable set as well, can grab a 2HKO. Running a utility set for Rocks and TWave isn't a bad idea either. Clef is just amazing overall and definitely among the mons that define the current metagame the most.
 
I feel like I should have commented this on the other post but the case is totally appart:

Both these megas should be S rank imo. Aero is more versatile, but Sharpedo now has amazing coverage onto psychic fangs and it is still prety easy to set. also, megas raw speed without the boost from speed boost is not mediocre, but rather enough to still bring fear on most of the tier. Also, prankster not hitting dark types anymore really patches up for mons that could be an issue before. Having one means you won't have the other, but that does not make them less viable individually. Meanwhile:

Why is this S? It frequently stumbles into 50/50s for sucker punch, has a decent amount of checks/counters along the tier and setting stealth rocks is cool but doesn't really seem enough to put it that high on the Rankings. I have yet to see a psycho cut bisharp, but this coverage set is so situational that does not make it splashable enough for an S spot and therefore i think it should be moved to A+ or even A
 
I feel like I should have commented this on the other post but the case is totally appart:

Why is this S? It frequently stumbles into 50/50s for sucker punch, has a decent amount of checks/counters along the tier and setting stealth rocks is cool but doesn't really seem enough to put it that high on the Rankings. I have yet to see a psycho cut bisharp, but this coverage set is so situational that does not make it splashable enough for an S spot and therefore i think it should be moved to A+ or even A
Bisharp is S Rank'ed because its only switch-in is Cobalion, what's actually stupid. You may say "Keldeo is a switch-in too", but no, Keldeo is overloaded by Knock Off and is not hard to wear down. Bisharp is probably one of the most stupid things in the tier right now, and I feel that it's the best Pokémon in the tier right now. Also, lol, why have you mentioned Stealth Rock? SD and Pursuit sets are the only viable sets on Bisharp.

Sorry about doing a small post like this, I'll post noms another day.
 
Agree with Zam to A+ and Clefable to S.

Talonflame should definitely move up to B-, maybe even B in the future. It's a pretty good early game breaker for offense and actually checks a lot, like Scizor and Clefable. Outspeeding Alakazam even without Gale Wings activated is also huge. Against offense it's usually easy to pick up at least a kill with it, and when you have the chance to setup (frequent if you send it out early game), everything basically drops. Teams that rely on offensive Pokemon tanking a hit from Aero and stuff to check them can be overwhelmed.

252 Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 289-342 (96 - 113.6%)
252 Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 246-291 (81.7 - 96.6%)
+2 252 Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%)
+2 252 Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 295-348 (73 - 86.1%)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-531643807 1.5 kills
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-531583621 1.5 kills
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-531625385 massacre

That's not to say it's excellent or anything - it's only really useful early game and near useless if rocks are us, and it kills itself easily through recoil after it's used its Z move. However, it's definitely better than anything in the C ranks and I'd rather Talonflame than Hawlucha, which is in C+.

Slowbro could also use a bump up to B+. It counters a bunch of important Pokemon - Aerodactyl, Keldeo, Zydog, and most importantly is a hard counter to Cobalion. I also tried this set for a little bit because it looked cool:

Slowbro @ Waterium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off

252 Atk Absol-Mega Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 187-221 (47.4 - 56%)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 112-134 (28.4 - 34%)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 134-162 (34 - 41.1%)

You can prevent stuff like Bisharp and Lucario from setting up in a pinch, or put a hard it on something like Raikou switching in to wear it down. In general though CM Slowbro is a really good Pokemon that bulky offense can find difficult to prepare for, pairs well with good balance Pokemon like Hippowdon and Togekiss, and at this point in time I'd much rather use it over the more passive Suicune.
 
Krookodile->A Rank

In all honesty , krook is still a great mon in the metagame and I feel it's a tad underated, even though it already gets quite a bit of praise. One set i would especially like to go over is the CB set. Krook is always a great counter to bisharp, resisting sucker punch and OHKOing with banded EQ. Also, since krook usually just needs two moves on its band set (knock and EQ+2 coverage), it has 2 more customizable moveslots. In these free moveslots you could run cool lure moves like Fire Fang for Sciz and magnet rise key and Aqua Tail for Gliscor (These moves are situational though). While the band set is easily revenge killed, it is extremely difficult to switch into if you click the right move.

Calcs
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Klefki: 204-240 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 249-294 (77 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 456-536 (168.2 - 197.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 291-343 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And Sciz clearly gets blown away by fire fang

Scarf Sets are also nice and for some extra info:
Bisharp Calcs
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even after defiant and 1 SD krook always survives from max health

To conclude all of this, krook is a great offensive check to both sciz and bisharp as well as a strong wallbreaker with CB and that great atk stat.
 
its sad that a +2 (brave bird)sky strike doesn't even OHKO hippo :(

and water Z slowbro is a sick tech :O

also do people not think regular sharpedo is viable at all? its essentially a stronger water stab weaker crunch mega sharpedo that doesn't need a mega stone.
Im thinking maybe like B- at least? it can also run D-bond for surprise kills against bulkier threats
 
I think that Durant deserves to be in the C- Rank. It has a good speed tier which allows it to outspeed most of the pokemon in the tier. In S/M, Durant has got Electrium Z Thunder Fang as an addition to kill Water types more consistantly. Z Hone Claws is another option to get +2 attack and negate the Acc drop of Hustle in one turn. You might think that you wouldn't choose Durant over an S-Rank Scizor at all, but Durants niche is the great speed stat and the great coverage with his stab Moves, Crunch, Rock Slide, Thunder Fang and Superpower
 
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Definitely think Clef deserves to be S ranked. The support it needs comes organically through how the meta has progressed. Things that scare it out, such as Bisharp and Scizor, are dealt with by good mons in the meta, such as Gliscor and Hippo. This means that teammates for Clefable don't need to be specifically for Clefable, but rather the entire team. This, coupled with the fact that good fire types are currently lacking (free my mans Victini), means that Clefable is a hassle to deal with for most teams. I'm not gonna talk about how many different sets Clefable can run, because it's already been said, but each set is very effective at what it does. Teams that lack a proper clef check, such as Nidoking or Gengar, are in for a tough time. Its role is similar to CroCune of last gen, except Clef can run different sets to through other teams off guard.

Its movepool is diverse, typing amazing, and has options of two of the best defensive abilities. It can even run something like Unaware + CM on a sun team since it has to run Moonlight. I just think Clefable will be the defining Fairy type of SM UU.
 
I think Forretress deserves A- at worst as a Support/Defensive mon. It's ability to put and take away hazards are incredibly useful, and Forretress also has a great typing and defensive stats which, alongside Sturdy, means it can do it's job with relative safety, while also doing a decent number with Gyro Ball.
 

Mac3

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C -> B/B+

Quagsire has an amazing niche with being 1 of 3 mons with the ability Unaware. Quagsire is almost always a staple on stall teams as he is the only Unaware mon that resists steel and actually has a semi decent offensive presence. Clefable obviosly makes it hard as it is usually a better Unaware mon but it loses to Steel types like Cobalion, Lucario and Bisharp. It is also the only Unaware mon which is immune to electric or even resists electric.

B- -> B+
Alomomola does not deserve to be in the same rank as Gastrodon. Alomomola is also a staple on stall as it is a bulky water type and has Wish access. Alomomola's niche is that it is the only water type with access to Wish (notable). Alomomola can also be used on Balance as a backbone with maybe Amoonguss to make a good Regencore. On that note.

B+ -> A-
Amoonguss is really good on stall and balance teams. Amoonguss is one of the few select mons with access to Spore while also having a good defensive typing paired with it's stats and ability. Amoongus is used on stall to beat many Electrics and Grass pokemon while also being switched in on Volt-Switch or u-turn as regenarator makes it so that Amoonguss barely takes any damage from it. On Balance Amoonguss is used a lot to be a switch-in to primarina if the opponent doesn't have Psychic.

Agreeing with Clefable to S.
 


I find Mareanie really viable on stall teams. It counters Scizor, Volcanion, Keldeo and more while providing Toxic Spikes (which Amoonguss can't do).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-533354160

Any thoughts?
I've used Mareanie myself, and I'm not convinced of it at all. I think the team you used highlights an issue with Mareanie: it is hardly a good check to Fire- and Fighting-types, which is why you have to run it with other checks. Looking at the team, you have 2 other Water-types and a Gliscor, which is about the sturdiest Fighting resist you can find. Mareanie's bulk is also really low, so you have to fully invest into physical defense. This, in turn, does not allow it to take advantage of Volcanion anymore, as Choice Specs Steam Eruption 2HKOs it. If you invest fully into Special Defense, Scarf Mienshao and Band Infernape suddenly have a chance to 2HKO you with Stealth Rock up. A mixed spread hardly works, as with Stealth Rock, you suddenly stop being a functional check to anything.

It has a good ability, and a good movepool, but I don't think it's quite fat enough to make use of either. Quagsire should be able to take on SD Scizor for you, while Alomomola can pivot into Banded Versions rather well. Between Alomomola and Gliscor, I hardly see what Mareanie helps your team with other than Keldeo. I think you could just replace it with Amoonguss for better results. Granted, you lose Toxic Spikes, but you gain a Pokemon that is much better overall, and you don't need the Toxic Spikes to be successful.
 
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Sacri'

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Agreeing with Clefable & Alakazam moving, both are extremely good.

Empoleon should move up to B+. It's SpeDef set is actually quite decent right now, it's the only hazard remover than can afford switching into Primarina regardless of the coverage it runs. You don't actually beat primarina if you switch in but you can still defog hazards off and heavily cripple primarina in the process, it also deals pretty well with Starmie if it lacks tbolt which is pretty neat as well. It takes close to nothing from Clefable moves so you can also use it as an opportunity to defog and proceed to roar it afterwards. On top of that it handles CM Latias & Slowbro really well, Toxic & Roar is usually enough to take them on but knock off is also a decent option. You don't actually counter Scizor but the bulky SD variant is usually forced to U-Turn in order to dodge a potential scald burn which is great too. Even though Empoleon isn't as splashable as it used to be I still feel like it has some potential in this metagame, roar prevents it from being passive and it's typing is still great. Bisharp pressures it relatively hard but that's just one thing any defogger needs to watch out for either way.
 
I have a nomination that I don't expect to go through but, I still want to make it as I want to see some counter arguments against this nom. (I honestly do not expect this nomination to go through haha.)
Bisharp from S rank to A+ Rank - Bisharp is one of the strongest power hitters in the UU metagame with a great ability, fantastic offensive STABs, and great utility. Too bad it relies heavily on winning 50/50s. Now, I've seen others complain about this and found myself not believing it and going along with what seasoned players were saying about this threat; it even got a suspect round with the council. But, when I used this pokemon I found out that what some people were saying about it is true; predict right and knock something out yet, predict wrong and you get knocked out or crippled. Bisharp's speed holds it back BIG TIME when it comes to a speedy meta (even some fast pokemon have nice bulk like mew, mega aero under sand, latias, and infernape to a certain extent since it can come in on Bisharp and Scizor). Also, for something as slow as Bisharp, you'd think it'd have some great bulk; it doesn't, it's just decent.
A big thing to also note is how Bisharp is CLEARLY not on the same threat level as Clefable and Scizor. Clefable and Scizor dominate the metagame as we all know. They both have great bulk, excellent utility, fantastic abilities, both hit hard. and they can fit on many playstyles. Bisharp is clearly not as flexible as Clefable and Scizor, so why even put Bisharp in S rank? Why have a pokemon that relies so heavily on 50/50s and coming in at the right time in S rank? Clefable and Scizor don't rely on 50/50s that much and they don't have to rely on coming in safely all too often.
Now, you might say that Bisharp has defiant over Scizor and Clefable. Rapid Spin. Also, Tsareena heavily puts in work against Bisharp with High Jump Kick (can even u-turn on a predicted Ghost type coming in, in case it's an offensive hazards team). Scizor and Clefable don't really have this same problem as Bisharp does when it comes to counter play as they have multiple viable sets. You have to scout sometimes to see what kind of set they are both running unlike Bisharp, which really only has one set. Sure it has pursuit and corkscrew smash z sets but it's pretty identical to the standard swords dance set and still relies on winning 50/50s. Yes, pursuit is a great tech move, don't get me wrong but, still adds to my point. Take for instance you want to remove Chandelure and Gengar from the game with pursuit, you predict they'll switch in fear of sucker punch, but wait...Chandelure outspeeds and knocks you out with Fire Blast, as well as, Gengar with Focus Blast.
Just want to add in one more thing, I'm not saying Bisharp sucks, it's a great mon, it is just not S rank material right now in my opinion. Unless Clefable gets banned, Bisharp should go down to A+ rank.
For those of you who don't agree (the seasoned players) I can understand and will definitely read your counter arguments to get more knowledge on this subject.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Wanted to rlly get into UU this gen so been playing around quite a bit and have some thoughts on VR rn:

A+ -> S (Agree)
Clefable is simply amazing in this metagame thanks to the versatility within its set and how distinct each one actually is when deciding a match. The main one that has had the greatest affect thus far is rlly CM Magic Guard which can easily snowball into a win quite easily once steels such as Bisharp and Scizor are eliminated (can even run Flamethrower to punish the switchin). Also one of the best SR setters due to it beating the main form of hazard removal rn in Latias and its overall bulk allowing it to set them up quite easily. Unaware Wish Pass sets are also very good for stall teams, allowing it to check many setup sweepers such as Gliscor, Reuniclus, and even Mega Aerodactyl. Clefable just effects teambuilidng too much and offers too much utility no matter what the teamstyle is tbh (besides maybe HO) to be any lower then S at this point.

A+ -> S (Agree)
Mega Aerodactly is easily the best mega this gen like it was in ORAS. The mega buff helped it out so much allowing it to outspeed many scarfers right away when it evolves. Like last gen, its one the best late game sweepers with its great offensive STABs and blistering speed only outspeed by a select few. It does not appreciate the presence of Scizor everywhere, which can revenge kill it with priority Bullet Punch quite easily, but Mega Aerodactly remains to be a staple on offense and balance teams to warrant a rise to S. I have even seen bulky Defog sets on more defensive teams put in a lot of work, as it provides a great Flying resist for those teams since defensive Flying checks are so scarce at the moment.

S -> A (On Fence, but leaning towards disagree)
Bisharp remains to be a top tier threat thanks to its great STABs demolishing half the metagame due to defensive Fighting types being a rarity. However, with the prominence of Scarf Keldeo, Cobalion and Scizor outclassing it in some situations, one can think that Bisharp might need to drop from S rank. However, I still believe the strain that Bisharp places on teambuilding still leaves an incentive to leave it where it is. Its still great for hazard stacking offensive teams due to the threat of Defiant on Defog users being too much of a risk to actually use. It also can punish defensive teams with its Steelzium Z SD set and even can create many 50/50s for offense thanks to Sucker Punch. While it might be a tad more difficult for Bisharp to pull off its role, I still believe the presence it leaves on the current meta (which is evident on a lot of builds, where nearly every team has a dark resist thats not weak to Steel moves), makes it a candidate for S rank still.

A -> A+ (Agree)
Not much more to be said, Alakazam is still a huge pain for balance teams to deal with thanks to Life Orb sets really lacking solid switchins right now. Its coverage also allows it to beat many would be checks such as Bisharp, Celebi, Mew, and even Mandibuzz (as Dazzling Gleam has started to see some usage). Sash sets are also a nightmare for offense to face as Zam offers such a great emergency card option for these teams since it also possesses some good support moves in Encore and Thunder Wave mainly (also Counter seems very interesting as well, but it is not implemented yet). I really don't want to echo hear, but yeh Zam is as good as it was last gen and should rise (just got to watch out for Pursuit from Bisharp, Scizor and Mega Aero tho).

My Own noms:

A- -> A
Z-Me First Moxie sets are actually quite amazing on Krokodile right now, as it can easily revenge kill weakened down opponents, gaining + 2 Speed and +1 Attack if it lands the KO and usually can proceed to sweep from there. Krokodile also has access to a great Choice Band set that really can dent many teams due to all Dark resist getting wrecked by Ground coverage (sans Mandibuzz and Hydreigon). Defensive sets are also still great as it can set rocks up while still applying great offensive pressure thanks to its great inherent power. It also appreciates the decline of Fighting types thanks to Primarina and Clefable's presence on the meta rn. Really underrated mon that is still great as it was last gen.

C+ -> B
Why is this so low?? Hawlucha is one of the best setup sweepers atm due to Swords Dance and Unburden turning it into an absolute brutal force. It really lack many checks due to Flying defensive resists being quite rare as I mentioned earlier and Fighting type STAB just compliments this really well. It also appreciates all the Steel types running around to beat Clef atm, usually using them as settup fodder (which it can use a majority of the mons in the higher ranks as to note). The only real check to it once it setups really is Unaware Clefable (which still has a chance to be 2hkoed from Acro after rocks damage). I have even seen Z-Sky Attack Mold Breaker be used to break through defensive answers such as Clefable and Mew after an SD boost. Halucha is very good and it honestly surprised me to see it this low. It should raise to at least B for now.

Lol thats it for now (ban Clef tho)
 
Magneton from B+ -> A-

Magneton is an amazing special wallbreaker and fills a very good niche in UU --- trapping steel types and decimating them with force --- and this pretty much goes good with Magneton since Bisharp, Metagross, Klefki, Foretress, and Scizor are pretty common Pokemon in the face of UU. Magneton can also check other stuff such as Volcanion, Starmie, Clefable, and Primarina. Has a momentum move in Volt Switch which gives momentum to its team. Its a great asset to a team that really WANTS a steel type to be removed from the opponents team such as Clefable, Latias, Togekiss, and anything that gets walled by Steel types or is weak to it

Here are some calculations to prove that Magneton is really quite the menace


252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 444-524 (129.4 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 277-327 (102.2 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Klefki: 172-204 (54.2 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 366-432 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 338-402 (85.7 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Volcanion: 506-596 (168.1 - 198%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 564-664 (159.3 - 187.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And you get the idea....

A- is plausible for it because of this very good niche and that it has weaknesses to 3 common types Fire,Ground,Fighting.

Hope you like my analysis on this.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Personally nominating Mega Absol from B+ to A- because I feel it definitely pulls its weight in the tier as a contender for being an offensive Dark-type. The mechanics Gen 7 brought to Mega Evolution speed changes benefited Absol the most, because on top of now immediately sharing the same Speed tier as Azelf, Zygarde-10%, Starmie, and Raikou, this also means Absol can just go straight for Knock Off against faster threats (pre-Mega) such as Latias, Gengar, and Celebi, as opposed to having to risk going for Sucker Punch and possibly losing momentum.

The current meta compared to last gen also has done wonders for showcasing Absol's versatility, as its great coverage means mixed luring sets, Pursuit sets, and typical sweep-oriented Swords Dance sets are all viable. While Absol has a large number of checks among the Pokemon residing in ranks S to A-, Absol has a means of dealing with most of them with just the proper moveset; Scizor, Klefki, Cobalion, and Bisharp are all dispatched by Fire Blast on mixed sets, while the latter two still aren't safe because Superpower is commonly seen on Mega Absol, which also covers Hydreigon, Krookodile, and Mega Sharpedo on the switch. Iron Tail is also an option for luring and breaking Fairy-types like Clefable, as well as Togekiss and Alolan Ninetales. Play Rough lets Absol threaten Keldeo and helps against mons like Conkeldurr, Mienshao, and Mandibuzz. Oh yeah and moves like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam can be cheeky for covering Primarina and Gliscor as well, rare as they may be seen on Absol.

The rest of the Pokemon in S to A- that I haven't mentioned get killed by Knock Off/Pursuit or (possibly boosted) Sucker Punch with rocks up. Of course, Absol can still be handled, as it is incredibly frail and at times reliant on setup, but I feel even as a Dark-type Mega Evolution its role isn't eclipsed at all by Sharpedo simply because it handles a whole different cast of Pokemon, most of which seem to be in the upper portion of UU's viability.

TL;DR: Mega Absol for A- because he can hang with the big boys too
 
Gengar -> A

Don't really see why this thing is A-. Ghost / Poison is an impeccable offensive typing that absolutely rips through teams. The only notable mons not hit by these both, Bisharp and Krookodile, die to Focus Blast. Life Orb hits stupidly hard and rips through teams that don't have Ghost resists and hits special glues like Mew and Clefable. Choice Specs hits even harder than Life Orb and has a 50% chance of OHKOing Specially Defensive Clef and easily 2HKOing literally the entire metagame outside of Blissey. Substitute counters Amoonguss and punishes passive mons like Alomomola among others. It also effortlessly defeats one of the top threats in the metagame being Clefable while Scarf being very rock solid outspeeding almost the entire meta and hitting prominent threats such as Mew, Primarina, Latias, Starmie, and Celebi. Honestly it's an incredibly potent offensive threat that easily breaks teams.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 203-239 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 354-421 (97.2 - 115.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 312-369 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 369-437 (113.5 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 218-257 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Specs calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 154-183 (47.9 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Mew: 288-342 (71.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Having something on Offense that 2hkoes almost the entire meta is pretty dope, rocks / spikes turn most of these into solid 2hkoes. I think you guys get the point. Of course Gengar really suffers with stuff like incredibly poor HP and Defense but I think that it's easily as versatile and effective as the rest of the stuff in A tier like Primarina, Starmie, and Hippowdon.
 
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Amane Misa

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A+ -> S

Nothing new here. It can do almost whatever the hell you want to it to do.

It can set up rocks - it beats common defoggers such as Latias, Mandibuzz and can hit Scizor with a Fire move of your choice.

It can Calm Mind in front of almost everything - the main things it can't Calm Mind on are Scizor and Bisharp - both can be lured and killed with a Fire move. Against Roar Empoleon - it can Knock Off its Leftovers and beat it slowly.

It can wall set-up Pokémon - thanks to Unaware, nothing really sets up on it. It can proceed to PP stall with Wish + Protect or just weaken with Moonblast or whatever move you choose to be the 4th.

Thanks to its natural bulk and typing, you can EV it to take hits from what your team is weak against (there are exceptions, of course).

While teambuilding, you have to prepare for Clefable or it might just wall more than half of your team (not like it doesn't wall half of your team even if you prepare for it, lol)

tl;dr: Clefable is a monster. S!
 
C -- > C+

The fact that this Pokemon is only rank C is a little silly. Not only is it a hard stop to all Scizor variants (including being able to Toxic bulkier variants thanks to its unique ability), but it also checks Bisharp, Clefable, Cobalion, and countless other threats. Having 117 Speed and 111 Special Attack with offensive Fire / Poison STAB is wonderful. Access to Nasty Plot with such speed puts it even further over the edge. In the rare event that you need to cripple something with Salazzle, it weirdly has access to both Encore, and Disable. With that high speed it's more than likely always going to get them off first. It also has Will-O-Wisp to cripple incoming physical attackers.

Due to the fact that it so very easily deals with a lot of the current top threats in the metagame so well, and its typing is overlooked and underutilized, I'd like to push for Salazzle to be bumped from C to C+ due to its important niche in checking some of the metagame's current top threats.
 
Infernape B- -> B+ or A-

Infernape is an amazing pokemon with a fantastic type Fire/Fighting has great offenses and speed 104/104/108 which makes this pokemon very dangerous and has a colorfull movepoll in Earthquake, Thunder Punch, Close Combat, Flare Blitz, Grass Knot, Mach Punch, Gunk Shot and many more. It has many roles as a stallbreaker, wallbreaker, suicide lead, special wallbreaker, revenge killer, and more. The downsides to this pokemon is its defenses with lackluster 76/71/71 bulk which makes it easy to kill. But aside that, Infernape can be terrifying if not taken down early game. Athough Infernape might seemed to be outclassed by Volcanion, Infernape can handle Blissey and a plethora of Dark types with ease which is what Volcanion can't do properly.


156 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 12 SpD Swampert: 385-458 (96 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 524-620 (217.4 - 257.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 240-284 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
100 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 289-341 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and a whole ton of more. Idk why this amazing fire monkey is B- but an upgrade to B+ or A- would best fit it in my honest opinion. Because its movepoll and offensive stats are screaming to everyone that this is B+ rank material.
 
Definitely disagreeing with both the Infernape and Salazzle noms. For the record, I'm all for Infernape rising, but to B+ is just way too drastic and it also isn't good enough lol.


Here's my problem with your Salazzle nom BlackMalachite - you talked up all of Salazzle's upsides big time. Fire/Poison coverage isn't bad by any means, but also isn't necessarily amazing when Mega Aerodactyl is absolutely everywhere. Salazzle also has NO coverage bar Dragon Pulse (which only hits things like Latias and Zydog) and Hidden Power (lol) to complement its impressive Special Attack. It also faces immense competition from Infernape, which by virtue of its Fighting-typing and Stealth Rock neutrality, is an infinitely better check to Bisharp, who still pressures the out of Salazzle with Sucker Punch, which OHKOs after Stealth Rock. It also almost never has room for Encore or Disable since it NEEDS coverage, and its also heavily pressured by super common threats in Scarf Krookodile, Zygarde 10% and Mega Aerodactyl. Overall, the main reason to keep Salazzle in C is the fact that Infernape is almost always better as a Nasty Plot user and checks all of the threats you mentioned bar Clef way more reliably.


Speaking of Infernape, the nom for its rise is way overblown as well. Infernape does NOT deserve a rise as drastic as two sub ranks. For one thing, your calcs are all of Pokemon hit super effectively by Infernape's attacks. Of course they're going to be OHKOed and 2HKOed by its attacks, they're weak to them. Infernape also never has room to fit all of that coverage in one set, it usually isn't even carrying Gunk Shot since it values Stone Edqe and EQ way more. You also say that Volcanion fails to properly pressure dark types, but OHKOs Krookodile and Bisharp with its STABs and bops Hydreigon and Mega Absol with Superpower. Infernape's main reason for currently being in B- is because of the meta's general unkindness to it. Alakazam, Starmie and Latias either hardwall or just remove Infernape, and Gliscor and Primarina are two big problems for it too. Infernape still has its uses, its the playdough of UU with arguably the most viable sets of any mon in the tier, and has lots of ways to break past checks, like Scarf U-turn, but is so hurt by 4mss and the prevalence of its checks that can't all crumble to the same coverage means that its more deserving of a rise to B instead of A.


Oh, and absolutey supporting the noms to rise Alomomola and Amoongus and to drop Toxicroak. Alo's just an amazing bulky pivot that can heal both itself and teammates in one turn and absolutely scoff at non super effective attacks. Amoongus currently forms the tier's best defensive core with Hippowdon and is just such an effective bulky pivot, status spreader and switch-in to a plethora of top tier threats. Toxicroak hasn't had nearly as much traction in terms of support for its drop, but its main use was as a rain check, and with both rain and azu gone and plenty of Water-types (Prima, Starmie, Swampert, Volcanion) that carry coverage that hits it super effectively, Toxicroak isn't really a reliable check to non defensive water types. Its only sets are also either NP or SD, which both face competition from other fighting types in Infernape and Cobal who either have the bulk necessary to set up or the speed to actually outpace their checks, which are two things Croak lacks. Thanks for reading!
 
Definitely disagreeing with both the Infernape and Salazzle noms. For the record, I'm all for Infernape rising, but to B+ is just way too drastic and it also isn't good enough lol.


Here's my problem with your Salazzle nom BlackMalachite - you talked up all of Salazzle's upsides big time. Fire/Poison coverage isn't bad by any means, but also isn't necessarily amazing when Mega Aerodactyl is absolutely everywhere. Salazzle also has NO coverage bar Dragon Pulse (which only hits things like Latias and Zydog) and Hidden Power (lol) to complement its impressive Special Attack. It also faces immense competition from Infernape, which by virtue of its Fighting-typing and Stealth Rock neutrality, is an infinitely better check to Bisharp, who still pressures the out of Salazzle with Sucker Punch, which OHKOs after Stealth Rock. It also almost never has room for Encore or Disable since it NEEDS coverage, and its also heavily pressured by super common threats in Scarf Krookodile, Zygarde 10% and Mega Aerodactyl. Overall, the main reason to keep Salazzle in C is the fact that Infernape is almost always better as a Nasty Plot user and checks all of the threats you mentioned bar Clef way more reliably.


Speaking of Infernape, the nom for its rise is way overblown as well. Infernape does NOT deserve a rise as drastic as two sub ranks. For one thing, your calcs are all of Pokemon hit super effectively by Infernape's attacks. Of course they're going to be OHKOed and 2HKOed by its attacks, they're weak to them. Infernape also never has room to fit all of that coverage in one set, it usually isn't even carrying Gunk Shot since it values Stone Edqe and EQ way more. You also say that Volcanion fails to properly pressure dark types, but OHKOs Krookodile and Bisharp with its STABs and bops Hydreigon and Mega Absol with Superpower. Infernape's main reason for currently being in B- is because of the meta's general unkindness to it. Alakazam, Starmie and Latias either hardwall or just remove Infernape, and Gliscor and Primarina are two big problems for it too. Infernape still has its uses, its the playdough of UU with arguably the most viable sets of any mon in the tier, and has lots of ways to break past checks, like Scarf U-turn, but is so hurt by 4mss and the prevalence of its checks that can't all crumble to the same coverage means that its more deserving of a rise to B instead of A.


Oh, and absolutey supporting the noms to rise Alomomola and Amoongus and to drop Toxicroak. Alo's just an amazing bulky pivot that can heal both itself and teammates in one turn and absolutely scoff at non super effective attacks. Amoongus currently forms the tier's best defensive core with Hippowdon and is just such an effective bulky pivot, status spreader and switch-in to a plethora of top tier threats. Toxicroak hasn't had nearly as much traction in terms of support for its drop, but its main use was as a rain check, and with both rain and azu gone and plenty of Water-types (Prima, Starmie, Swampert, Volcanion) that carry coverage that hits it super effectively, Toxicroak isn't really a reliable check to non defensive water types. Its only sets are also either NP or SD, which both face competition from other fighting types in Infernape and Cobal who either have the bulk necessary to set up or the speed to actually outpace their checks, which are two things Croak lacks. Thanks for reading!
I don't agree with a lot of this to be honest. A lot of this just seems like a shit post against two users who worded their stuff a little weird.
Salazzle - Definitely underrated for what it can do. Yeah, it can't run encore or disable on the nasty plot set, because it doesn't need to. Black Malachite was talking about multiple sets that Salazzle has. Take for instance on the support Life Orb set, Salazzle can afford to run Toxic and Encore to cripple certain threats due to it's ability and only acting as a support hole puncher. The immediate damage it can pull off with it's STAB combo is incredible as they are very useful against the meta (they all have already been listed). The immediate damage it puts out with it's STABs is enough to take out what it needs to take out, while being able to cripple what it needs to thanks to it's ability not caring about what type you are. The sub toxic set is very dangerous in it's own right too, vs Stall and Balance it can put in a lot of work against as a lot of people know from experience. The Nasty Plot set obviously has it's problems but, it's not to be underestimated either, both with Life Orb (more consistent power but forces dragon pulse) or Poisinium Z (allows you to use HP grass but at less consistent power). It's speed is remarkable and not knowing what set it runs can easily put pokemon into 50/50s (like Bisharp as you've mentioned). Also the side comment on Hidden Power with the (lol), Keldeo requires hidden power too on certain sets as it's movepool is very shallow yet, it can still put in the work against a lot of the meta; which just goes to show that don't underestimate a pokemon that lacks a good movepool.
The problem with Salazzle is the bulk, it always wants to set up and often has to rely on the opponent switching out in order to get away with setting up. And although Salazzle's dual STAB combo is great against top threats, it's definitely not good against a lot of other lesser threats such as water types, ground types, and dragon types (which we got plenty of with bulk).
As for Infernape, just as other posters from experienced players have said, you can run what the team needs you to run, it doesn't have major 4mss as you imply. Infernape is a lot like a team player; if you handle fast threats really well but need some hole punching then, Infernape might be your guy. That's Infernape as a whole. If you need a fast mon, maybe Infernape. Need a way to handle Bisharp and Scizor? Maybe Infernape. Now I say "maybe" because Infernape definitely isn't the best at whatever role it goes for but, it is a jack of all trades type of offensive pokemon. The only time I'll say that Infernape has 4mss is when it tries to be a nasty plot sweeper (which is still a great set). Often times, I wanted to go vacuum wave for faster threats but also grass knot for coverage or HP ground for Chandelure.
At the end of the day, though, I disagree with both pokemon rising. I think Infernape should stay B- for now since there isn't too much about it that's outstanding for a rise yet. As for Salazzle, well I see a lot of mons in C rank that should be C+ and mons in C+ rank that should be C rank. It's hard to say that Salazzle should be above a lot the mons in C rank since a lot of those mons are just as good as Salazzle yet, Salazzle is better than some of the mons in C+ rank. I have no idea. I mean hey, it's C rank so, I don't think it matters too much. If it rises, cool. If not, oh well.
 
sup


C -- > C+

The fact that this Pokemon is only rank C is a little silly. Not only is it a hard stop to all Scizor variants (including being able to Toxic bulkier variants thanks to its unique ability), but it also checks Bisharp, Clefable, Cobalion, and countless other threats. Having 117 Speed and 111 Special Attack with offensive Fire / Poison STAB is wonderful. Access to Nasty Plot with such speed puts it even further over the edge. In the rare event that you need to cripple something with Salazzle, it weirdly has access to both Encore, and Disable. With that high speed it's more than likely always going to get them off first. It also has Will-O-Wisp to cripple incoming physical attackers.

Due to the fact that it so very easily deals with a lot of the current top threats in the metagame so well, and its typing is overlooked and underutilized, I'd like to push for Salazzle to be bumped from C to C+ due to its important niche in checking some of the metagame's current top threats.
While i agree Salazzle should be bumped up to C+ some of the points are either bad or straight up wrong.

1.It does not check Bisharp well at all
2.Corrosive is a shit ability (Oblivious isn't good either but at least it can have an actual use)
3.Click Fire Blast on Scizor
4.It's only got so much room on its moveset so moves like Wisp and Toxic aren't exactly valuable to a breaker that really needs Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power Grass to break through the few switch-ins not named Blissey/Mega-Aerodactyl etc

Anyway, I was going to make a similar nomination after the Victini suspect as i do agree that as far as Fire-Types go Salazzle is pretty nice in due part to its Speed Tier and Stab combo which differentiate itself from Infernape (Outspeeding Raikou,Gengar,Cobalion,Keldeo and Infernape itself) while it's bulk for sure isn't good the typing does allow it some leeway especially against Fairys checking both Clefable and Primarina. It's shortcomings are plentiful but the traits it does bring over other Fire-Types seem good enough in the least to move up a subrank.
 
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