SM UU Viability Ranking Thread

[mertyville]

Regarding Torkoal, in the time I used it, it felt a lot easier to support its team with sun than with Ninetales most notable because its great natural physical bulk and lava plume. So you can invest more into Special Defense or one of its offensive stats instead.
Also it has Explosion, which I personally think every Torkoal should run since it allows to safely switch in your sun sweeper or wallbreaker.

As for using the sun for themselves, I can't argue either since I haven't tried using them as individual wallbreakers or sweepers. On paper I would say Ninetails because of its speed allowing it to outspeed defensive threats and it has Nasty Plot.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I feel that the meta change has hurt Crobat's viability in UU, but i feel C+ is a bit harsh for it ranking. I say it moves up to B- instead. I can agree it isn't the best pokemon in UU for sure, but it can still be effective with a Choice band set or a black sludge utility set.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I agree with mdvd - Tsareena and Decidueye are pretty mediocre at their jobs and a B- ranking reflects that very well, while still acknowledging that if used effectively they can be valuable to a team.

I also agree with LORD HELIX 65 - Crobat really does not belong in the C ranks because its great speed means it can do /something/ every game, and in several games do a lot, especially with not many Flying resists on teams. I'll add that my stall teams struggle badly with NP Crobat because its immunity to poison, instant recovery, and power after several boosts, although that is obviously not Crobat's main niche.

Two nominations of my own: Alomomola from B- to B and Poliwrath from unranked to C

On Alomomola, I nominate it to rise based on the merits of its Wish Protect set which usually runs Scald and Toxic. The benefits of this set is that is provides a very valuable support move for defensive teams, counters top threats including Sharpedo, spreads status with Scald and Toxic to whittle away, and can abuse Regenerator switches to pivot or even save PP.

Wish is almost mandatory on stall teams, for Pokemon like Tentacruel and Nidoqueen which are good defenders but have no reliable recovery. Alomomola partners with these Pokemon well because it can pass large wishes and they can switch into moves Alomomola does not like - stronger special moves or Electric / Grass moves.

The metagame is not unkind to Alomomola as potentially big threats like Celebi and Bisharp are often sidelined in favor of things like Mew - which while Alomomola cannot counter it, Alomomola can still target them with Toxic. Additionally, Alomomola can switch into essentially every single choiced attacker in the tier as long as they do not have super effective STAB moves, in order to scout. Even things like Specs Hydreigon have trouble OHKOing and frankly, that set is rare.

Alomomola's main two weaknesses - passiveness and average special bulk (for a wall) - does not badly affect its role because those traits are to be expected in stall teams and can be covered by teammates. The fact that Alomomola is limited to slower playstyles and has little diversity (maybe the occasional Knock Off or Soak?) is reflected in the fact its not being considered for the A rankings.

On Poliwrath, I nominate it to rise based on the merits of its Scald Circlethrow Resttalk set which usually maxmizes defense. This is far more uncommon than Alomomola so I will include a couple replays. The benefits of this set is that it provides a status absorbing wall that by virtue of its typing walls many top tier threats such as Scizor, Bisharp and nonboosting Keldeo.

See this game for evidence that the metagame is not unkind to Poliwrath - the Pokemon it counters are common. Unfortunately my opponent outplayed me but this game still shows the Pokemon Poliwrath counters are used in UU. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-556360405

See this game for evidence that Poliwrath can be used on stall teams as a backup defender - even though I misplayed and let it die, it did a good job of breaking Scizor's Lum Berry and in better hands it probably did not need to faint. Also I made mistakes at the end letting Tentcruel die, but that's not really relevant to Poliwrath. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-556356796

What these replays did not show was the utility of a RestTalk user - these Pokemon can easily absorb status and with Rest, PP stall for a long time. These traits, along with Scald's natural status spreading qualities, give Poliwrath a surprisingly useful role in combating defensive teams - walls without high quality utility moves are usually deadweight against stall but not so for Poliwrath

Unfortunately Poliwrath suffers from several problems - firstly there are several Pokemon in the tier that can abuse him like Mew and Primarina with few drawbacks. Although that is to be expected of a defensive Pokemon, the sheer number and viability of Pokemon that can switch in makes it impossible to use on any team that does not require a single counter to the mentioned threats. And Poliwrath has only above average bulk with limited recovery, so it relies a bit more heavily on team support than a typical core defender. Overall these problems mean Poliwrath has trouble justifying itself in any rank above the Cs, but C or C- is not really asking too much.


In summary, both Alomomola and Poliwrath should rise because they are strong defenders and their flaws are reflected in their still relatively low rankings and the fact they often have teammates covering them.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Yes, I agree with pokeisfun, because i actually have experience with poliwrath in SM RU and UU. C rankings seem about right for it in UU as it can be an annoyance to several defensive teams, combating them quite well. But like he said as well, it suffers from many problems. It is kind of passive and has a lot of trouble with pokemon like Raikou, gengar, primarina, and nidoking to an extent, but it still can accomplish combating defensive teams. I also agree with tsareena and decidueye dropping to B-, as they really aren't the best and new threats like nidoking and talonflame coming from RU doesn't really help either, as Nidoking is fairly prominent in UU with poison moves. They aren't that great but can be effective with team support and if they are used correctly.

 

[bsu]

poliwrath was also one of the best counters to gatr, which unfortunately isn't used much anymore, as well as being able to counter sharpedo in ORAS before psychic fangs (rip).
however i think in this meta poliwrath's job can be done by much more reliable/have better niches pokemon like suicune or alomololaoal. its niche is rather specific, and if were going with viability rankings as a tool for newer players, perhaps it would be better to showcase stronger/more reliable bulky water types over poliwrath

 

[G-Luke]

I was just coming to nominate the Grass gods to C+ and B- respectively, but I guess I was beaten to it. I still gonna try.

B -> C+: This sounds abit harsh but I'm being honest. New Toy Syndrome is over and Tsareena needs to disappear with it. As a defensive spinner it is outclassed by Forry (MUCH better defensive typing.), Tentacruel (Better typing and can punish Physical attackers permanently. Also isnt passive asf), it falls flat against the most common spinblockers (Gengar, Chandy, Doublade) and struggles to fit into common builds. The rise of Flying types such as Togekiss, Talonflame, Mega Aero and the prevelance of many checks and counters on all playstyles cement its need for a drop.

B -> B- (Or even C+): Decidueye was renounded for its stallbreaking qualities, shredding Water types, trapping very passive mons and using them as setup bait and breaking past walls with its boosted Z-Move. But nowadays, Stall has evolved a bit to counter it. Mega Aerodactyl is now one of the more popular Megas on Stall teams, which beats Deci. Clefable is the face of Stall, which Deci cannot beat. Pursuit Trappers are becoming more common on Stall too. And even classic StallMons are adapting new ways of beating it (Mew running Flamethrower on defensive sets to lure Scizor, also creams Deci. More Blissey run Toxic instead of Thunder Wave.) And the metagame developments themselves are not doing it favours. The thing is, all is not lost for Deci (unlike its other Grass God compadre). It still retains its redeeming qualities, its just alot harder to execute. So thats why it should drop to B- to reflect this.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I believe with many other that Tsareena and Decidueye should drop, Mainly Decidueye though. Tsareena should go to B- as it isn't great and kind of one dimensional and isn't used very much anymore, and Decidueye should drop to B- possibly even C+ because it is great at it's role, Being a swords dance nuke, but it is pretty slow and pursuit is getting more common, and new threats like sheer forcce nidoking and focus sah dragon dance crawdaunt don't help it's situation, and is weak to Top tier threats like scizor, bisharp, flamethrower CM clefable, Some variants of crawdaunts (although they aren't too common in uu) and mega aerodactyl and mega sharpedo especially. These factors seem to indicate that it should drop on the viability chart. Also, while we were on the topic of Crawdaunt, i feel the C rank is a bit too harsh for the crab and it deserves to rise to C+ due to it's extreme power. Crawdaunt has a lot of flaws, like its durability and most importantly its speed. But it can still set up if you send it on a pokemon you resist or that is passive, Ex: Alomomola, Tentacruel, Forretress. Take a look at these damage calculations to see how strong crawdaunt can be with a swords dance boost. It can be hard to set up, but if you set up against a passive mon or one you resist, you can do some serious damage.


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 790-931 (188 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 577-681 (155.5 - 183.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 515-606 (119.4 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 413-489 (102.9 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As shown above, this thing can do crazy damage if it can somehow get a boost, but you can try your luck with a sash, but it will lower you damge output.
Those are some reasons i think Crawdaunt should be C+ instead.

 

[Froggyboy]

Thanks for the analysis on Crawdaunt, now could you give some reasons on why it should rise in rank besides for the copy & paste strengths and weaknesses of Crawdaunt?

Also, while we were on the topic of Crawdaunt, i feel the C rank is a bit too harsh for the crab and it deserves to rise to C+ due to it's extreme power. Crawdaunt has a lot of flaws, like its durability and most importantly its speed. But it can still set up if you send it on a pokemon you resist or that is passive, Ex: Alomomola, Tentacruel, Forretress. Take a look at these damage calculations to see how strong crawdaunt can be with a swords dance boost. It can be hard to set up, but if you set up against a passive mon or one you resist, you can do some serious damage.


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 790-931 (188 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 577-681 (155.5 - 183.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 515-606 (119.4 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 413-489 (102.9 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As shown above, this thing can do crazy damage if it can somehow get a boost, but you can try your luck with a sash, but it will lower you damge output.
Those are some reasons i think Crawdaunt should be C+ instead.

 

[sparrow]

Few things I would like to discuss:

Raikou A --> A+ (can't help myself, sorry)
Okay yep, I already stated why I think this thing is so bloody good, but I still don't think sitting it in A rank truly reflects how good it is. Sure it has a few blanket checks such as Hippowdon, Amoongus, Clefable, Krookodile, etc. The problem I have when I look at this mon is how fkn scary it is to build / play against. Raikou is the bane of offence builds, the fact that it has the possibility of running more than 1 very good CM set (heck even Specs) is what makes it terrifying. I've built plenty of teams now and am fairly comfortable with the SM meta, and when I see an opposing Raikou I have to worry about whether it's Sub, Specs or Z-move. By virtue of its speed and power Raikou is able to force switches, it's able to set up a CM or Sub quite easily, not to mention Specs will severely dent any of the above mentioned blanket checks too - forcing them to recover. I really hate playing against this mon just because of how versatile it is, each of its sets can threaten teams in different ways and I feel moving it up to A+ will truly reflect its effectiveness.

Primarina A --> A+
Primarina has really caused problems for each of us as UU players, the thing really is an amazing Special Attacker. Sure we have options to counter it, but it has coverage for those "counters". I understand it's quite a slow Pokemon, yes it has exploitable weakness' etc. etc. We also need to consider its merits; it has amazing typing, it has coverage it needs to beat the majority of the metagame, and short of Blissey & Empoleon, there are no safe switch ins. Primarina isn't difficult to use, and it forces the opponent to play in a way to mitigate it - usually by sacking a less valuable member of their team. Essentially we're looking at a Pokemon that can almost guarantee a single KO each game; just through the fact that teams may have to sack something to scout which move Primarina is going to use. Primarina's stellar defensive typing doesn't make it difficult to switch in, coupled with the fact that it KOs the majority of the tier, I think we should consider moving this thing up to A+.

Gliscor A- --> A
One of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier, Gliscor effectively runs two very good sets. Offering a faster Taunt and U-turn momentum: Utility / Stallbreaker sets are very good at controlling the hazard game, as well as pressuring the opponents team through its useful immunities and resistances. Gliscor is also a decent bulky SD disrupter and sweeper. Gliscor is able to pick and choose what it can beat and what it's counters are, by simply adjusting its Speed and moveset it can range from a great Pokemon to use versus bulky teams; to a threatening yet bulky SD sweeper. Gliscor's versatility is really what makes it so good, it can fill a number of roles on a team due to this, coupled with its amazing resistance & immunities, as well as speed & bulk, and it's immunity to status I think we should consider moving it up to A. Not to mention the fact that something like Clefable would run Ice Beam to ensure that Gliscor is not a problem late game.

Empoleon B --> B+
I've touched on this before, but I would really like to spark further discussion around it. Empoleon, like Gliscor, is able to fill many roles for its team, albeit not being as amazing as Gliscor; it still brings to the table something not many other Pokemon can do. Firstly, Empoleon is a good "check" to Primarina, more of a pivot to scout what move it's going to use. On the back of this, it's able to control the hazard game through rocks & defog, pHaze set up sweepers such as: Mew, Latias, Bulky Scizor, Togekiss, etc. It can wall a decent number of special attackers in the tier, as well as, pressure the plethora of Ground type Pokemon in the tier, with coverage such as Grass Knot, Ice Beam and Flash Cannon dealing decent damage. I've been using Empoleon a lot lately, and nothing else in the tier is quite like it. If anything, at least consider the fact it will be the same rank as Pokemon such as Forretress, Blastoise & Amoonguss in B+. I feel Empoleon holds the same value as these Pokemon when building a team.

 

[freezai]

Nominating Jellicent for C+ to B-

Quite franky, Jellicent is criminally underrated and deserves a rise to B- for the following reasons:

• Ability to check top metagame threats. Utilizing its great typing and adequate mixed bulk, is able to check a variety of top metagame threats. It leverages its 3 immunities and access to Will-o-Wisp to allow it to wall common attacking types like fighting, water and steel while Wisp is an effective deterrent to physical attackers in general. In fact, it checks all 3 S rank pokemon as well as 3 out of 5 A+ rank pokemon.
• Stallbreaking capacities. It more or less has its way with typical non Gliscor stall builds with its combination of Taunt+Willowisp+Hex. It's menacing in general to a lot of bulkier teams who rely on something like Mega-Aerodactyl or Keldeo for speed control.
• It's weakeness' are harder to expose in practice . Most of Jellicent's checks on paper can not directly switch in because of the fear of getting burnt. Crawdaunt, Krookodile and Bisharp are all examples of checks that need some crisp maneuvering to even try to expose Jellicent's weakenesses. Furthermore, Jellicent has good type synergy with solid dark type checks such as Klefki or Clefable. This means that the majority of its weakenesses are naturally patched up during team building and you don't have to go out of your way to cover its areas where it can be exploited.

Replay(s):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-263149 Here is a replay from the ULT Semfinals (Kushalos vs Bushtush) where Jellicent blanket checks 4 members of the team. Bushtush's counterplay is through Crawdaunt which has to be maneuvered very carefully because of the threat of Will-o-Wisp burns (the burn does eventually happen) and Magneton's ability to expose Jellicent is non existent because, like every good team, Kushalos has electric checks.

 

[Punchshroom]

On Poliwrath, I nominate it to rise based on the merits of its Scald Circlethrow Resttalk set which usually maxmizes defense. This is far more uncommon than Alomomola so I will include a couple replays. The benefits of this set is that it provides a status absorbing wall that by virtue of its typing walls many top tier threats such as Scizor, Bisharp and nonboosting Keldeo.

See this game for evidence that the metagame is not unkind to Poliwrath - the Pokemon it counters are common. Unfortunately my opponent outplayed me but this game still shows the Pokemon Poliwrath counters are used in UU. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-556360405

See this game for evidence that Poliwrath can be used on stall teams as a backup defender - even though I misplayed and let it die, it did a good job of breaking Scizor's Lum Berry and in better hands it probably did not need to faint. Also I made mistakes at the end letting Tentcruel die, but that's not really relevant to Poliwrath. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-556356796

What these replays did not show was the utility of a RestTalk user - these Pokemon can easily absorb status and with Rest, PP stall for a long time. These traits, along with Scald's natural status spreading qualities, give Poliwrath a surprisingly useful role in combating defensive teams - walls without high quality utility moves are usually deadweight against stall but not so for Poliwrath

Unfortunately Poliwrath suffers from several problems - firstly there are several Pokemon in the tier that can abuse him like Mew and Primarina with few drawbacks. Although that is to be expected of a defensive Pokemon, the sheer number and viability of Pokemon that can switch in makes it impossible to use on any team that does not require a single counter to the mentioned threats. And Poliwrath has only above average bulk with limited recovery, so it relies a bit more heavily on team support than a typical core defender. Overall these problems mean Poliwrath has trouble justifying itself in any rank above the Cs, but C or C- is not really asking too much.

If you ask me, Poliwrath is largely overshadowed by Quagsire as a mon that is expected to blanket check most of the tier's physical attackers, except due to Unaware and superior typing, Quagsire can 1) wall out more things that Poliwrath cannot, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Hawlucha, CM Reuniclus, and Clefable, 2) not be at risk from being overwhelmed by boosted attacks such as SD Fightinium Cobalion, Bulk Up Guts Conkeldurr, or SD Gliscor in the long run, or even SD Lum Scizor as you showed in your replay, and 3) get caught out less often by coverage moves such as Play Rough from Mega Absol. Quagsire can use Curse to comfortably sponge hits even better from most of these physical attackers and beat some of the bulkier but weaker Calm Mind mons 1v1, and can even function as a late-game wincon, all of which Poliwrath cannot do.

Before you argue that Quagsire can't 'absorb status' like RestTalk Poliwrath can, keep in mind that RestTalk is not so much of a boon for Poliwrath than it is a necessary crutch. Poliwrath really needs Rest to hold up against the tier's physical attackers whereas Quagsire can just Recover; hell u can probably run RestTalk on Quagsire and not be worse off (this combined with Curse even lets you beat down the likes of CM Slowbro and Suicune), especially since you won't need to desperately hope for Sleep Talk to select Circle Throw to phase out a boosting opponent when you really need to, which is another drawback Poliwrath has btw. Even phasing is not so much a 'bonus' for Poliwrath as opposed to being an outright necessity for Poliwrath to not get crapped on by boosted threats, and as per mentioned earlier, Sleep Talk can be super fickle when you try to Circle Throw while you're asleep, leaving you wide open. Not to mention that status absorbing shouldn't be too huge of a deal when Quagsire (and Poliwrath) primarily fit on stall, which should have clerics anyway.

I don't see much that Poliwrath offers in this meta that isn't covered by Quagsire or the majority of bulky Waters, or even walls in general; Poliwrath just seems to try to accomplish some super specific role compression that most teams barely even need. For instance, even if you desire a Entei switch-in with access to phasing, Milotic and Slowking can do the task while possessing superior forms of recovery.

 

[Illusion's FTW]

I believe with many other that Tsareena and Decidueye should drop, Mainly Decidueye though. Tsareena should go to B- as it isn't great and kind of one dimensional and isn't used very much anymore, and Decidueye should drop to B- possibly even C+ because it is great at it's role, Being a swords dance nuke, but it is pretty slow and pursuit is getting more common, and new threats like sheer forcce nidoking and focus sah dragon dance crawdaunt don't help it's situation, and is weak to Top tier threats like scizor, bisharp, flamethrower CM clefable, Some variants of crawdaunts (although they aren't too common in uu) and mega aerodactyl and mega sharpedo especially. These factors seem to indicate that it should drop on the viability chart. Also, while we were on the topic of Crawdaunt, i feel the C rank is a bit too harsh for the crab and it deserves to rise to C+ due to it's extreme power. Crawdaunt has a lot of flaws, like its durability and most importantly its speed. But it can still set up if you send it on a pokemon you resist or that is passive, Ex: Alomomola, Tentacruel, Forretress. Take a look at these damage calculations to see how strong crawdaunt can be with a swords dance boost. It can be hard to set up, but if you set up against a passive mon or one you resist, you can do some serious damage.


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 790-931 (188 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 577-681 (155.5 - 183.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 515-606 (119.4 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 413-489 (102.9 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As shown above, this thing can do crazy damage if it can somehow get a boost, but you can try your luck with a sash, but it will lower you damge output.
Those are some reasons i think Crawdaunt should be C+ instead.

You forgot to credit me for bringing up crawdaunt but anyways lol. I 200% second crawdaunt going up to C+. This thing can literally hit hard and if you don't believe me, look at the calcs shown above. Keep in mind, it has 120 Attack, a good offensive typing, and a nifty Ability that makes it a nuke towards most mons. It has set-up moves like DD and SD which can make it a late-game cleaner and also its very good like I said before with Z Crabhammer which nukes things like Bewear which is Crawdaunt's biggest switch-ins. Keep in mind that Crawdaunt does not deserve a C ranking but a C+ ranking or a B- ranking, this mon is literally a good wallbreaker and although it faces comeptition with Sharpedo-Mega, it has Adaptibility and better STAB unlike Sharpedo-Mega. Other than Crawdaunt, I think I can see Decidueye dropping due to its niche being walled by more prominent things such as Clefable so I think B- can be a spot for it. When it comes to Tsareena, it's only niche is a Grass physical attacker utilizing Rapid Spin but its outclassed by Latias being it has a better typing + has more speed, Mew for having better bulk and relibale recovery, Scizor for having a better typing and better overall offensively, and so on maybe drop it to C+. #NewToySyndrome

 

[bsu]

gonna try and keep this short but i find it a crime that hawlucha is sitting all the way down in C+
with a simple set of SD, HJK, Acro and either sky attack for z-fly move, or sub with sitrus, it can literally shred apart unprepared and even prepared teams with a bit of chip.

(some calcs)
with sky attack:
244 Atk Hawlucha Supersonic Skystrike (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%)
244 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%)
assuming rocks i think thats a 2KO right
+2 244 Atk Hawlucha Supersonic Skystrike (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 349-412 (88.5 - 104.5%)
+2 244 Atk Hawlucha Supersonic Skystrike (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 376-444 (89.5 - 105.7%)
everything less bulky just dies to +2 acro or HJK.
its surprisingly easy to set up with, as it threatens a lot out, as well as having decent bulk to take a hit
ex: 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 129-153 (43 - 51%)
obviously a combination of priority + having to take a hit can probs kill hawlucha but u should try and sweep late game/break early game so its not too much of an issue usually

vs offense it can usually trade a kill at least, if not set up and sweep on a predicted switch

vs balance if it sets up on like a gliscor or something at the right time its usually a GG

vs stall it kinda falters, but with sub you can kinda set up on like alommoolaoaal
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 63-75 (21 - 25%)
if they have quag ur dun but otherwise its decent

this things utility over something like stout land's sand niche or specs swallow boom burst should put this at least B-, if not higher

interested in other thoughts tho! whenever i face it i can usually handle it, but not without having to sac something to prevent it from setting up

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

gonna try and keep this short but i find it a crime that hawlucha is sitting all the way down in C+
with a simple set of SD, HJK, Acro and either sky attack for z-fly move, or sub with sitrus, it can literally shred apart unprepared and even prepared teams with a bit of chip.

(some calcs)
with sky attack:
244 Atk Hawlucha Supersonic Skystrike (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%)
244 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%)
assuming rocks i think thats a 2KO right
+2 244 Atk Hawlucha Supersonic Skystrike (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 349-412 (88.5 - 104.5%)
+2 244 Atk Hawlucha Supersonic Skystrike (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 376-444 (89.5 - 105.7%)
everything less bulky just dies to +2 acro or HJK.
its surprisingly easy to set up with, as it threatens a lot out, as well as having decent bulk to take a hit
ex: 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 129-153 (43 - 51%)
obviously a combination of priority + having to take a hit can probs kill hawlucha but u should try and sweep late game/break early game so its not too much of an issue usually

vs offense it can usually trade a kill at least, if not set up and sweep on a predicted switch

vs balance if it sets up on like a gliscor or something at the right time its usually a GG

vs stall it kinda falters, but with sub you can kinda set up on like alommoolaoaal
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 63-75 (21 - 25%)
if they have quag ur dun but otherwise its decent

this things utility over something like stout land's sand niche or specs swallow boom burst should put this at least B-, if not higher

interested in other thoughts tho! whenever i face it i can usually handle it, but not without having to sac something to prevent it from setting up

I've already posted about Hawlucha, and I very much agree with your nomination, but I've got a few minor issues I'd like to state about your post.

First off, Z-crystals don't get used up once the Z-move is used, meaning that unburden does not activate and Acrobatics will remain 55 power after the use of a Supersonic Skystrike.

In addition, I've found that the most effective spread for Hawlucha, in my opinion is not actually the one listed in the calc, but rather a spread of 28 HP / 248 Atk / 232+ Spe, which allows for Hawlucha to switch in on rocks twice then sub once to activate Unburden, along with making Alomomola's scald completely unable to break the sub instead of allowing it to hit that crucial 25% mark at max damage variance, all while still outspeeding base 115s.



EDIT: In order to give this post some additional substance, I'd like to personally agree with the nomination for Raikou to A+. It's our primary electric type, and it requires careful play to win against unless you have Blissey or Hippowdon or something of that nature (And some of its common checks can be slapped down with a +1 Breakneck Blitz or N-E Nightmare, to boot.)

 

[dingbat]

2 months off and i notice something quite different...



... that my Microsoft Paint skills are rusty af

 

[The Elder Dragon]

I was just coming to nominate the Grass gods to C+ and B- respectively, but I guess I was beaten to it. I still gonna try.

B -> C+: This sounds abit harsh but I'm being honest. New Toy Syndrome is over and Tsareena needs to disappear with it. As a defensive spinner it is outclassed by Forry (MUCH better defensive typing.), Tentacruel (Better typing and can punish Physical attackers permanently. Also isnt passive asf), it falls flat against the most common spinblockers (Gengar, Chandy, Doublade) and struggles to fit into common builds. The rise of Flying types such as Togekiss, Talonflame, Mega Aero and the prevelance of many checks and counters on all playstyles cement its need for a drop.

B -> B- (Or even C+): Decidueye was renounded for its stallbreaking qualities, shredding Water types, trapping very passive mons and using them as setup bait and breaking past walls with its boosted Z-Move. But nowadays, Stall has evolved a bit to counter it. Mega Aerodactyl is now one of the more popular Megas on Stall teams, which beats Deci. Clefable is the face of Stall, which Deci cannot beat. Pursuit Trappers are becoming more common on Stall too. And even classic StallMons are adapting new ways of beating it (Mew running Flamethrower on defensive sets to lure Scizor, also creams Deci. More Blissey run Toxic instead of Thunder Wave.) And the metagame developments themselves are not doing it favours. The thing is, all is not lost for Deci (unlike its other Grass God compadre). It still retains its redeeming qualities, its just alot harder to execute. So thats why it should drop to B- to reflect this.

Agreed. I don't see why Tsareena's still here; if you want a utility spinner Tentacruel is infinitely superior, even if you already have a bulky Water-type- plus multiple bulky waters is the way to go with basically any slower team without a Blissey these days. Kinda sad that Tsareena can't even beat most bulky waters 1v1 besides Swampert (EDIT: and maybe fat Primarina, on the rare occasions it appears), as the rest all just burn it before pointing and laughing.
I think Decidueye is definitely still solid but not as good as it was before thanks to people realizing it also just gets burned then pointed and laughed at.

 

[Martin890]

Kinda sad that Tsareena can't even beat most bulky waters 1v1 besides Swampert (EDIT: and maybe fat Primarina, on the rare occasions it appears)

I will never understand why they made Trop Kick base 70 power. Or the only (good) physical Grass it learns. Why no Power Whip and Seed Bomb?

 

[sol]

UU Theorymon

Gamefreak was obviously in their feelings when they made this. I don't see Power Whip but Petal Blizzard or Seed Bomb should have gotten through. Alas, Tsareena was destined to be a PU star player from the start, and why its still in UU baffles me.

low ladder

Anyway want to say something else other than this one liner so i'll discuss these mons

(B -> B+/A-)

(C -> B-)

(B- -> C+)

I'll start with Suicune. This thing is so underrated its not even legal, VinCune can just outright break Amoonguss balance as it 1v1's Amoonguss. With so many steel/fire/water mons being used SUicune finds many opportunities to set up a substitute. Even RoarCune can be viable on stall as a great phaser and also help in pp wars. Lets get back to VinCune though as it is it's best set by far. VinCune is such an Antimeta mon as it beats Magic Gaurd CM Clef 1v1 as well as walling M-Aero and Scizor most of the time. I also feel it is criminal how it has the same rank as Tsareena and Decidueye (seconding grasses dropping).

So Quagsire, might be biased AF but still, it is basically a staple on most stalls as it provides something unaware clef can't do, check Scizor and Bisharp. With only Unaware clef stall usually loses to a well played SD Sciz or Sd Bisharp, but with Unaware Quagsire stall walls those two mons to infinity and beyond. As it is such a staple on stall I don't see why it is only C, it should be B- AKA the same rank as Doublade.

Ok, this might be contreversial but hear me out. With Gen 7 coming and burn only doing -6% per turn Entei took a huge hit. Last gen it could usually weaken water types with burn damage but this gen it can't as they won't take any damage coupled with leftovers recovery. Also a lot of new waters dropped that are being spammed like Primarina, Starmie, Volcanion while waters we already had (Tenta, Suicune, Alomomola) are still heavily used. Along with M-Aero being on nearly every team it makes Entei very bad against top tier threats. While it definately has a niche I don't feel like it is as good as Alomomola or Haxorus rn.

Thats all I have to say so cya!

 

[The Elder Dragon]

Anyway want to say something else other than this one liner so i'll discuss these mons

(B -> B+/A-)

(C -> B-)

(B- -> C+)

I'll start with Suicune. This thing is so underrated its not even legal, VinCune can just outright break Amoonguss balance as it 1v1's Amoonguss. With so many steel/fire/water mons being used SUicune finds many opportunities to set up a substitute. Even RoarCune can be viable on stall as a great phaser and also help in pp wars. Lets get back to VinCune though as it is it's best set by far. VinCune is such an Antimeta mon as it beats Magic Gaurd CM Clef 1v1 as well as walling M-Aero and Scizor most of the time. I also feel it is criminal how it has the same rank as Tsareena and
Decidueye (seconding grasses dropping).

So Quagsire, might be biased AF but still, it is basically a staple on most stalls as it provides something unaware clef can't do, check Scizor and Bisharp. With only Unaware clef stall usually loses to a well played SD Sciz or Sd Bisharp, but with Unaware Quagsire stall walls those two mons to infinity and beyond. As it is such a staple on stall I don't see why it is only C, it should be B- AKA the same rank as Doublade.

Ok, this might be contreversial but hear me out. With Gen 7 coming and burn only doing -6% per turn Entei took a huge hit. Last gen it could usually weaken water types with burn damage but this gen it can't as they won't take any damage coupled with leftovers recovery. Also a lot of new waters dropped that are being spammed like Primarina, Starmie, Volcanion while waters we already had (Tenta, Suicune, Alomomola) are still heavily used. Along with M-Aero being on nearly every team it makes Entei very bad against top tier threats. While it definately has a niche I don't feel like it is as good as Alomomola or Haxorus rn.

Thats all I have to say so cya!

Agreed. It's thanks to changing my CroCune to VinCune that I got myself from basically a bit of floating pond scum to where I am today. I posted a bit about CroCune before, which is still good, but seriously speaking VinCune is probably the best Water-type wincon I've ever used that isn't broken as a basketball player's shinbone *cough* MegaBro *cough*. It's actually very reasonably fast, while its bulk remains solid. I wish it could be a bit better versus hyper offense though.
No comment on Quagsire, never used one nor faced one in this meta (I've seen it, but in the two battles I have it literally didn't see the light of day)
I agree with the Entei comment.

 

[sparrow]

Perplexed as to why such a threatening Pokemon is nestled all the way down in C-rank; Tornadus is very versatile and underrated atm. Yes it's threatened by common offensive threats such as: M-Aerodactyl & Raikou; as well as priority users such as: Scizor & Bisharp. IMO Tornadus will always be the kind of Pokemon that will threaten a team, unless you can manage to safely scout its move set. A short list of its viable sets are as follows: Specs, Bulk Up + Rest Talk, Bulk Up + Z-Flying 3 Attacks, LO AoA, Z-Flying AoA, no item Defiant and even Prankster Rain Dance. Able to deal damage on both sides of the defensive spectrum coupled with the sheer number of sets it can run grants Tornadus the benefit of unpredictability.

I truly believe that Tornadus could easily sit at B / B+ rank; alongside other Pokemon such as Absol, Infernape & Zygarde.

 

[bsu]

Perplexed as to why such a threatening Pokemon is nestled all the way down in C-rank; Tornadus is very versatile and underrated atm. Yes it's threatened by common offensive threats such as: M-Aerodactyl & Raikou; as well as priority users such as: Scizor & Bisharp. IMO Tornadus will always be the kind of Pokemon that will threaten a team, unless you can manage to safely scout its move set. A short list of its viable sets are as follows: Specs, Bulk Up + Rest Talk, Bulk Up + Z-Flying 3 Attacks, LO AoA, Z-Flying AoA, no item Defiant and even Prankster Rain Dance. Able to deal damage on both sides of the defensive spectrum coupled with the sheer number of sets it can run grants Tornadus the benefit of unpredictability.

I truly believe that Tornadus could easily sit at B / B+ rank; alongside other Pokemon such as Absol, Infernape & Zygarde.

to be fair its in C rank rn and i can see it going up to C+, maybe even B- but thats about it
hurricane is just too unreliable (as well as common coverage Focus Blast)
like you said, its easily revenged meaning its forced out often by common threats, and for a mon weak to rocks that isn't the best news.
its true its variety of sets can make it hard for an opponent to scout, and with Life orb it does pretty well against balance and can usually trade a kill with HO. Life orb Taunt could wreck stall potentially if it hits all its hurricanes and predicts the blissey with superpower, but also its bulk isn't the best and it'll quickly wear itself out. but yeah besides like life orb and a dedicated rain set, its other sets just aren't as consistent i feel.
Its definitely dangerous so i could see it rising a bit, but i just don't see it as consistently threatening as say nidoking or suicune or above.

it sucks when ur supposed to be able to 1v1 a non scarf keldeo, only for you to lose 30% of the time :/ (edit: wow i need to sleep lol)
(granted acro would win, but then you're walled by like any phys def mon)

 

[sparrow]

to be fair its in C rank rn and i can see it going up to C+, maybe even B- but thats about it
hurricane is just too unreliable (as well as common coverage Focus Blast)
like you said, its easily revenged meaning its forced out often by common threats, and for a mon weak to rocks that isn't the best news.
its true its variety of sets can make it hard for an opponent to scout, and with Life orb it does pretty well against balance and can usually trade a kill with HO. Life orb Taunt could wreck stall potentially if it hits all its hurricanes and predicts the blissey with superpower, but also its bulk isn't the best and it'll quickly wear itself out. but yeah besides like life orb and a dedicated rain set, its other sets just aren't as consistent i feel.
Its definitely dangerous so i could see it rising a bit, but i just don't see it as consistently threatening as say nidoking or suicune or above.

it sucks when ur supposed to be able to 1v1 a non scarf keldeo, only for you to lose 70% of the time :/
(granted acro would win, but then you're walled by like any phys def mon)

I feel you missed the point when I state that it runs many sets, I don't think it's good to discredit something especially if you haven't tried it (I never tried its other sets until recently). The set that really made me think that this thing is really great was the Defiant no item attacker with Taunt. I posted information about it here. Defiant is definitely a very viable Defog punisher over Bisharp, and it has better coverage too. Taunt is just the icing on the cake. Taunt allows Tornadus to 1v1 Pokemon such as Hippo & Toxic Gliscor! It also lets it block opposing hazards. In fact, hazard stack + Defiant w/ Taunt Torn actually threatens stall and bulkier builds too. I feel like this coupled with its other sets really make it such a great threat atm.

Also, please correct the 70% of the time lose to 30% of the time versus Keldeo, wouldn't want to mislead people.

 

[Hilomilo]

You guys seriously need to stop bashing Tsareena, especially when you're refusing to acknowledge any of its merits over other spinners, which are plentiful. Comparing it to a Pokemon as shitty as Lurantis is also absolutely asinine and doesn't even contribute to discussion. The same can be said with saying it should drop from UU when we have crap like Sylveon and Darmantian still hanging around lmao. I don't think it should drop to B-, much less C+, though definitely see some of the reasoning behind a potential drop. Regardless, I'd like to go through everything that Tsareena has that is more useful than the likes of other defensive spinners, so you people that don't even seem to have used it can understand why it actually deserves its current rank:

With its typing and Trop Kick, it actually can hold its own against some of the tier's most common hazard setters - By virtue of Tsareena's Grass-typing and Trop Kick, which is actually an extremely useful utility move, it can more reliably deal with the likes of Swampert, Hippowdon, and Gliscor in comparison to Tentacruel and Forretress. Tentacruel can potentially burn these Pokemon with Scald, but isn't as reliable since its weak to Earthquake, which all will always run (Gliscor can also avoid burns with Poison Heal). Forretress can tank their hits, but doesn't have any recovery and is just worn down and saps momentum as a result. Tsareena, on the other hand, can use Trop Kick to super effectively damage Swampert and Hippowdon and lower their attack more reliably than Scald and actually resist Earthquake. Gliscor also doesn't appreciate the attack drops, as after being hit with just one Trop Kick defensive Gliscor sets become really passive, with only Toxic to sufficiently damage what tries setting up on it.

Edit: There's also Krookodile if we're talking about Pokemon that commonly set rocks, and Tsareena's also a lot more reliable against that as well, since Krookodile especially hates the lowered attack and threatens Tenta and Forretress with powerful EQ and Knock Off attacks.

It has recovery - Tentacruel and Forretress are really hurt by their lack of recovery, since they're prone to being worn down and thus, can struggle to consistently use Rapid Spin throughout long matches, unless of course preserved. Tsareena, however, is able to consistently spin without worry at all, as it can recover any health lost in the process of spinning with Synthesis. This is particularly useful in, as stated before, especially long battles, where in time, Tentacruel and Forretress will just be worn down and faint. You could argue that Tentacruel and Forretress can just receive Wish support from another Pokemon on your team, but Tsareena won't need that and as a result, won't take up a teamslot for its own support, which is honestly such a nice perk over its competition.

It has unique tools that allow it to support its team - People here are arguing that Tsareena is outclassed by Tentacruel due to its lack of utility. This is honestly such an inaccurate claim, as there are plenty of tricks that Tsareena has up its sleeve that allow it to adequately support its teammates and in ways that Tentacruel can't or at least not as reliably. Trop Kick is easily one of the best things about Tsareena. You guys are arguing that it's piss weak, but it doesn't need to be powerful. The move provides Tsareena with good utility in that it guarantees the lowering of attack of foes, which is quite useful compared to the 30% chance of Tenta's Scald. This discourages switching in from foes that you'd think could actually switch in, such as Infernape, Doublade, Entei, Cobalion, and Scizor. This also allows Tsareena to easily support its sweeper teammates in that foes with attack that's lowered enough in time become quite passive. Tsareena also has Aromatherapy, which is a move entirely unique from anything any spinner in the tier brings to the table. It allows Tsareena to win 1v1s against bulky waters by healing Scald burns, and also takes the weight off of a team's shoulders if they're worried about both status and hazards but don't want to take up two moveslots. There's also U-turn, which is a great source of momentum and allows Tsareena to reliably support its frailer teammates as a slow pivot. Between Trop Kick, Aromatherapy, and U-turn, Tsareena is more than capable of providing for its team, and in plenty of ways that are different from Tentacruel.

Lastly, Tsareena isn't as passive as other defensive spinners - I've already told you why this is the case for Tsareena. Unless your opponent is Bisharp, which threatens every spinner, Tsareena can discourage setup by using Trop Kick to lower the attack of foes that may try accumulating stat boosts against it, like Conkeldurr, Doublade, and Decidueye (which are all some mons that as you guys said, Tsareena seemingly can't do anything against). Tentacruel has Scald and Acid Spray to try making up for its passiveness, but we reside in a Steel-heavy meta, so Acid Spray will at times be a waste of a slot, where as mentioned before, Scald is much less reliable if one would hope to lower a foe's attack stat.

I think that while a drop to B- isn't too unreasonable, that Tsareena's current placement in B is justified at the moment, and that you guys seriously need to at least shed some light on these mentioned perks before immediately saying that because of its worse defensive stats Tsareena is automatically outclassed as a spinner.

Although this post is already quite long, before leaving I'd like to shed some light on Bruxish. Bruxish isn't a great Pokemon, but honestly is much better than what currently resides in C-. It a gigantic threat to offensive and defensive teams alike with its Swords Dance set, and overall has a niche that compared to even C-'s best Pokemon in Venomoth, Minior, and Rotom-Cut, is more appreciated in the current and more consistently can be put to use. Thanks for reading!

TLDR: Tsareena has plenty of merits over Tentacruel and Forretress in that it has recovery, isn't as passive, has better matchups against the tier's best hazard setters, and also has plenty of unique utility options that allow it to support its team in ways that the other spinners mentioned can't. Bruxish should move to C since it's good af compared to everything else in C-

 

[The Elder Dragon]

It has unique tools that allow it to support its team - People here are arguing that Tsareena is outclassed by Tentacruel due to its lack of utility. This is honestly such an inaccurate claim, as there are plenty of tricks that Tsareena has up its sleeve that allow it to adequately support its teammates and in ways that Tentacruel can't or at least not as reliably. Trop Kick is easily one of the best things about Tsareena. You guys are arguing that it's piss weak, but it doesn't need to be powerful. The move provides Tsareena with good utility in that it guarantees the lowering of attack of foes, which is quite useful compared to the 30% chance of Tenta's Scald. This discourages switching in from foes that you'd think could actually switch in, such as Infernape, Doublade, Entei, Cobalion, and Scizor. This also allows Tsareena to easily support its sweeper teammates in that foes with attack that's lowered enough in time become quite passive. Tsareena also has Aromatherapy, which is a move entirely unique from anything any spinner in the tier brings to the table. It allows Tsareena to win 1v1s against bulky waters by healing Scald burns, and also takes the weight off of a team's shoulders if they're worried about both status and hazards but don't want to take up two moveslots. There's also U-turn, which is a great source of momentum and allows Tsareena to reliably support its frailer teammates as a slow pivot. Between Trop Kick, Aromatherapy, and U-turn, Tsareena is more than capable of providing for its team, and in plenty of ways that are different from Tentacruel.

Aromatherapy is an excellent niche for a spinner that I admit I overlooked- problem is, no one seems to run it. I'm serious; Synthesis/Trop/U-turn or HJK/Spin is quite literally the only set I've ever seen in all my days playing in this tier, and rightly so, since without the extra attack Tsareena loses either loses pivot ability and ends up killing momentum or becomes a setup fodder...
Also, good to know someone else knows how to use it's vs its, hilomilo.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Aromatherapy is an excellent niche for a spinner that I admit I overlooked- problem is, no one seems to run it. I'm serious; Synthesis/Trop/U-turn or HJK/Spin is quite literally the only set I've ever seen in all my days playing in this tier, and rightly so, since without the extra attack Tsareena loses either loses pivot ability and ends up killing momentum or becomes a setup fodder...

Just because no one runs Aroma doesn't make Tsareena any less better, or better yet move down a tier because of it.

Adding another attacking move wouldn't make much of a difference anyway, since Tsareena is still forced out a lot even with it, so it's pretty pointless.

I've been using Tsareena myself and I think it's a pretty viable spinner. Because of the 120 ATK, it can surprisingly hold it's own against a bunch of stuff in the tier that aren't Fire or Flying types, even when uninvested. It won't leave a dent in everything obviously, but having access to utility moves like Trop Kick and Aromatherapy already gives it a niche that the other spinners don't have. Honestly, the only thing about Tsareena I don't like so much is its typing, which is really the biggest detriment to it.