Hi, first post here! Also keep up with the good job ZU people, this tier is becoming popular much faster than expected and is becoming super interesting with all these drops in komala, swanna, abomasnow, shiftry etc etc.
I'm afraid I don't know enough about ZU yet to say if I'm pro or against a shiftry suspect. However I would like to share some thoughts about tiering, that might be regarded as odd by certain people.
To start with I'm very, very often pro-suspects and pro-bans. However, I learned after spending 1 year in PU that lower tiers change really quickly, because of tiershifts that mess it up all (not this time tho, the only relevant loss is tangela, which already faced competition from gourgy, especially because gourgy can defeat bulky komala's and tank flamethrower from evire much more easily than tangela). On one hand, I would like to say: don't be so eager to suspect mons, there are many meta adaptations to come from the ZU playerbase's creativity, and this meta is all but old and clearly understood. On the other hand, I would like to say: was the time spent in ZU with stoutland, rotom-frost, liepard, lycanrock worth it? They all rose by usage (iirc), not by suspects+bans. I'm used to Pu where many broken/unhealthy mons tend to stick around for longer than they should, although it is understandable given that everytime something is banned, something else replaces it. I absolutely respect the decisions taken by the ZU council (not resuspecting throh for example), but I don't know how to feel about the Rotom-F suspect in particular, and about the arguments brought during the suspect: seriously, how is "grumpig+torterra force rotom to play 5050s?" an argument? Nobody sends a torterra vs an icetype unless they really don't need the turtle that much. That weren't 5050s at all.
That's why I think Xayah is right when they say that pokémons shouldn't be looked at in a vaccuum. That works in OU, where the available defensive mons allow people to say "ok X is walled/hard checked by Y and Z, so X is fine". In lower tiers, ZU included, offense are dominant playstyles (regular offense and bulkyoffense mainly), so many mons turn out not being broken because they are too slow/dont find enough switchin opportunities/can't do their job perfectly because of opposing offensive pressure; that's why I agree once again with Xayah about shiftry, and agree even more about using rapidash more, since it's a really nice offensive check, able to switch into shiftry.
Still, I feel like some pro-suspect shiftry points are being slightly overlooked, both in pro- and anti- suspect posts:
-shiftry's wallbreaking capabilities. It's not because shiftry runs SD that it is supposed to be a sweeper. It's a mixed wallbreaker, and SD is an added (and amazing bonus) that isnt necessary at all for it to be good. That's why all the chat about SD shiftry sweeps, while not irrelevant at all, may go the wrong way. If shiftry was a dedicated physical sweeper, it would be using seedbomb and not leafstorm. (I only talked about mixed shiftry here, not Z-hurricane, nastyplot etc).
-Knock off's utility. I strongly believe knock off is one of the best and most busted moves in the game along with stealth rock and spikes, due to being the strongest physical darktype attack+removing items+being learned by a shitload of pokémons. So yes, as pointed out in pro-suspect posts (sorry, all the posts are long and I can't remember who said what since all posts were of good quality and fairly detailed), knock off is a huge factor imo to take into account; even if shiftry doesn't sweep, even if it doesn't wallbreak (unlikely tho), it will always remove items. The biggest problem is that these items tend to be.... eviolites (togetic, busken, monferno, machoke to name a few). And unlike tangela which remains an excellent wall and pivot WITHOUT its eviolite, most ZU nfe mons are.. not so great without their evio. They will still stop shiftry, but are gonna suffer a lot more for the rest of the game. All knock absorbers cannot take repeated hits, and can just be destroyed by a LO leafstorm (mawile with its negative spdef, silvally-fight/dark/water don't enjoy leafstorm+stealth rocks at all, etc).
-Suckerpunch. On paper, sucker is easy to play around, especially because shiftry is slow and doesn't want to die. So, in theory, it will be clicking sucker vs faster threats. But how it that bad for shiftry? It just racks up more SR damage on switching mons, and since it is mainly a wallbreaker, it contributes to whittling the foes down to support a teammate's lategame sweep.
edit; In particular, pokémons like rapidash, swanna, pinsir don't like switching in on rocks just to check a shiftry that might as well switchout into a safe mon. Morning sun/roost plays are not ideal either and are just passive (and somewhat risky) plays which show how dangerous shiftry is.
If you take into account that 1) shiftry can remove items while denting opposing mons 2) these items tend to be eviolites or items that aren't supposed to be knocked 3) that the top offensive mons, such as komala, evire, swanna have a bad defense stat, making them prone to suckerpunch 4) that shiftry can run a myriad of set variations (grassiumZ/darkiniumZ mixed SD; nastyplot; Z-hurricane; sub+3 atks; subSD; specs; whatever) , I think it starts to look like a serious candidate for a suspect test, especially since tangela left. If you look at other toptiers...komala is slow, has a bad defense stat and can be checked with golem/gourgeist; electivire is quite predictable, and checked by many mons, including the two former ones; swanna is a tough one too, but still weak to rocks, frail, RKed by any scarfer/anything faster, and well, can be walled if you want to (muk, licky, pyuku, togetic for example), or checked by AV/spdef komala, scarf vire... The best high-ranked checks to shiftry I can think of are silvally-fight, combusken, rapidash, pinsir, which are all relatively frail/easily worn down, and can all just straight-up lose to a surprise Z-move.
Since the meta is likely to change in the coming weeks/months, and that shiftry is frail and has to be examined via playing/replay-watching since it is checked offensively usually (hard to imagine an entire game with shiftry in you head unless you watched the game), I will not make up my mind, especially when I remember Aurorus in 2018 PU (almost broken, turns out it is fine) or Dodrio/Jellicent dropping in PU (seemed tough mons, but they were too pressured offensively), still the incredible diversity of shiftry sets, its access to speed control (suckerpunch), knock off, and all the tools/items it needs to do whatever it wants without finding reliable counterplay in opposing teams, will probably make me lean towards pro-suspect in the future.
Sorry for this goddamn long post, thanks for reading, should it be only one paragraph!
I'm afraid I don't know enough about ZU yet to say if I'm pro or against a shiftry suspect. However I would like to share some thoughts about tiering, that might be regarded as odd by certain people.
To start with I'm very, very often pro-suspects and pro-bans. However, I learned after spending 1 year in PU that lower tiers change really quickly, because of tiershifts that mess it up all (not this time tho, the only relevant loss is tangela, which already faced competition from gourgy, especially because gourgy can defeat bulky komala's and tank flamethrower from evire much more easily than tangela). On one hand, I would like to say: don't be so eager to suspect mons, there are many meta adaptations to come from the ZU playerbase's creativity, and this meta is all but old and clearly understood. On the other hand, I would like to say: was the time spent in ZU with stoutland, rotom-frost, liepard, lycanrock worth it? They all rose by usage (iirc), not by suspects+bans. I'm used to Pu where many broken/unhealthy mons tend to stick around for longer than they should, although it is understandable given that everytime something is banned, something else replaces it. I absolutely respect the decisions taken by the ZU council (not resuspecting throh for example), but I don't know how to feel about the Rotom-F suspect in particular, and about the arguments brought during the suspect: seriously, how is "grumpig+torterra force rotom to play 5050s?" an argument? Nobody sends a torterra vs an icetype unless they really don't need the turtle that much. That weren't 5050s at all.
That's why I think Xayah is right when they say that pokémons shouldn't be looked at in a vaccuum. That works in OU, where the available defensive mons allow people to say "ok X is walled/hard checked by Y and Z, so X is fine". In lower tiers, ZU included, offense are dominant playstyles (regular offense and bulkyoffense mainly), so many mons turn out not being broken because they are too slow/dont find enough switchin opportunities/can't do their job perfectly because of opposing offensive pressure; that's why I agree once again with Xayah about shiftry, and agree even more about using rapidash more, since it's a really nice offensive check, able to switch into shiftry.
Still, I feel like some pro-suspect shiftry points are being slightly overlooked, both in pro- and anti- suspect posts:
-shiftry's wallbreaking capabilities. It's not because shiftry runs SD that it is supposed to be a sweeper. It's a mixed wallbreaker, and SD is an added (and amazing bonus) that isnt necessary at all for it to be good. That's why all the chat about SD shiftry sweeps, while not irrelevant at all, may go the wrong way. If shiftry was a dedicated physical sweeper, it would be using seedbomb and not leafstorm. (I only talked about mixed shiftry here, not Z-hurricane, nastyplot etc).
-Knock off's utility. I strongly believe knock off is one of the best and most busted moves in the game along with stealth rock and spikes, due to being the strongest physical darktype attack+removing items+being learned by a shitload of pokémons. So yes, as pointed out in pro-suspect posts (sorry, all the posts are long and I can't remember who said what since all posts were of good quality and fairly detailed), knock off is a huge factor imo to take into account; even if shiftry doesn't sweep, even if it doesn't wallbreak (unlikely tho), it will always remove items. The biggest problem is that these items tend to be.... eviolites (togetic, busken, monferno, machoke to name a few). And unlike tangela which remains an excellent wall and pivot WITHOUT its eviolite, most ZU nfe mons are.. not so great without their evio. They will still stop shiftry, but are gonna suffer a lot more for the rest of the game. All knock absorbers cannot take repeated hits, and can just be destroyed by a LO leafstorm (mawile with its negative spdef, silvally-fight/dark/water don't enjoy leafstorm+stealth rocks at all, etc).
-Suckerpunch. On paper, sucker is easy to play around, especially because shiftry is slow and doesn't want to die. So, in theory, it will be clicking sucker vs faster threats. But how it that bad for shiftry? It just racks up more SR damage on switching mons, and since it is mainly a wallbreaker, it contributes to whittling the foes down to support a teammate's lategame sweep.
edit; In particular, pokémons like rapidash, swanna, pinsir don't like switching in on rocks just to check a shiftry that might as well switchout into a safe mon. Morning sun/roost plays are not ideal either and are just passive (and somewhat risky) plays which show how dangerous shiftry is.
If you take into account that 1) shiftry can remove items while denting opposing mons 2) these items tend to be eviolites or items that aren't supposed to be knocked 3) that the top offensive mons, such as komala, evire, swanna have a bad defense stat, making them prone to suckerpunch 4) that shiftry can run a myriad of set variations (grassiumZ/darkiniumZ mixed SD; nastyplot; Z-hurricane; sub+3 atks; subSD; specs; whatever) , I think it starts to look like a serious candidate for a suspect test, especially since tangela left. If you look at other toptiers...komala is slow, has a bad defense stat and can be checked with golem/gourgeist; electivire is quite predictable, and checked by many mons, including the two former ones; swanna is a tough one too, but still weak to rocks, frail, RKed by any scarfer/anything faster, and well, can be walled if you want to (muk, licky, pyuku, togetic for example), or checked by AV/spdef komala, scarf vire... The best high-ranked checks to shiftry I can think of are silvally-fight, combusken, rapidash, pinsir, which are all relatively frail/easily worn down, and can all just straight-up lose to a surprise Z-move.
Since the meta is likely to change in the coming weeks/months, and that shiftry is frail and has to be examined via playing/replay-watching since it is checked offensively usually (hard to imagine an entire game with shiftry in you head unless you watched the game), I will not make up my mind, especially when I remember Aurorus in 2018 PU (almost broken, turns out it is fine) or Dodrio/Jellicent dropping in PU (seemed tough mons, but they were too pressured offensively), still the incredible diversity of shiftry sets, its access to speed control (suckerpunch), knock off, and all the tools/items it needs to do whatever it wants without finding reliable counterplay in opposing teams, will probably make me lean towards pro-suspect in the future.
Sorry for this goddamn long post, thanks for reading, should it be only one paragraph!
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