Metagame SM ZU NP Stage 2.0: Waiting for the Sun (Exeggutor Unbanned @ post 14)

Xayah

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The council has decided we will be suspect testing Exeggutor to potentially be allowed into ZU after having been ZUBL for a long time!​

Exeggutor was originally quickbanned at the start of beta for being one of the main driving forces behind two playstyles that were heavily dominating: Sun and Trick Room. It’s high Special Attack stat meant that it functioned as an excellent breaker on both of those playstyles. In addition, it had a powerful presence on other teams as well as a solid breaker that used its solid STAB combination to break through a large variety of teams. However, it is also important to note that back then, sun had Victreebel and we banned both Victreebel and Exeggutor to nerf the playstyle. Hence, it is possible that Exeggutor was never given a proper chance to begin with.

In addition, since then, the metagame has changed massively. Both Sun and Trick Room have fallen off heavily from the incredible forces they once were and offense is now ruling the metagame, driven by a wide variety of excellent wallbreakers. Being a slow wallbreaker with a poor defensive typing itself, Exeggutor may be very easy to pressure, similarly to Choice Specs Abomasnow. Furthermore, Exeggutor faces significant competition from Pokemon like Shiftry and Abomasnow, meaning that it is perhaps not as exceptional as it once were.

Of course, there is still a chance it is broken. Its massive Special Attack stat combined with an incredibly powerful STAB move in Leaf Storm means that it’s capable of 2HKOing much of the metagame, and it’s still a giant threat on both of the playstyles it originally found itself on. Moreover, Exeggutor can function as a standalone threat because of its access to Sleep Power, Berry+Harvest sets, and its own utility. Throughout this suspect test, it will be crucial to identify how much of a threat Exeggutor is, both on Sun or Trick Room and off of them, and whether or not the metagame can handle its presence.


There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we will use the regular ZU ladder, though it will have Exeggutor unbanned. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test must fulfill the following requirements:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! ZU ladder on a new alt with the following format: “ZUEGG [nickname]” (example: ZUEGG Xayah).
  • To qualify for voting, you must play a minimum of 30 games on your alt and achieve a minimum of 78 GXE.
  • You must post proof of achieving these requirements in the Alt Identification Thread.
The suspect test will last for 14 days, with voting opening on Monday 24th. Please use this thread to discuss your thoughts on Exeggutor in the ZU metagame. For any questions regarding the suspect process, please go to our SQSA thread.

Tagging The Immortal to unban Exeggutor from the ZU ladder.
 
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Exeggutor is pretty underwhelming from my experience whether it would be Sunny Day, Specs,shitty leech seed sets, and OTR. Specs is the most splashable but it is hard to justify over specs Abomasnow or LO Kadabra because you never really want to be locked into just grass or just psychic or hp fire. It's also painfully slow being mediocre vs most offense, really prediction reliant vs balance, and Stall just has Bronzor + Licky which will most likely outlast you to kingdom come. Sun teams get a new addition to their arsenal and I think is its best niche in the metagame but getting hard stopped by Shiftry sucker sucks not to mention Shiftry itself covers a lot of what Egg would do in Sun but with a less revengable speedtier and more universal coverage. Also Sun is just not a great playstyle yet. OTR is cool in theory but Beheeyem is just usually better despite lacking grass stab because of how good Analytic and it is typically easier to set up TR because grass typing leaves you vulnerable to things like Swanna, Combusken, etc. and being revenged by Sucker and Ice Shard really sucks. And basically any team with Bronzor on it just makes life suck. I would not be surprised if Egg comes back it would be ranked B or B- even because it can be inconsistent and often outclassed in the roles it fills. Free Egg
 

uhuhuhu7

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Are we allowed to make a team especially for countering exeggutar?
or, even better, are we allowed to use exeggutar even though we aren't testing?
You're allowed to use any team you'd like whether or not you're going to vote. Exeggutor is free to use right now so that voters can get an idea of how the Pokémon performs in the tier; you aren't required to use it yourself.
 
Egg Team Dump for Suspect:


https://pokepast.es/ad0121e93640c636

Here is the team that I made reqs with. Its relatively derivative from my other established webs team, but different enough with Egg being a good teammate.

At 229 speed egg makes a great abuser for webs. It's super strong and has little to no switch ins when played correctly.

Versus Broken Phobias:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-928398313


https://pokepast.es/a74d2806030f85fb

This balance helps specs Egg play a crucial role as a much needed WB to help support the sweep from SD Combusk. NP Raichu is the SB for the team and also helps with its great speed. Mare, Golem, and Alt make a tight defensive core.

Versus Funbot:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-928066050



https://pokepast.es/dc066da0d1ad5b63

Sunny Day Egg isn't better than specs, but can still have a cool niche in some teams as a late game sweeper and sleep support. Note that in the sun, HP Fire / Solar Beam can 2HKO Bronz / Liki, two of the only switch ins to Egg. More so to other bait sets like Flyium Z Shift, Egg doesn't sacrifice much with the sun set and still poses as a formidable attacker.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-927396102
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-927417268
 
20190615_182828.jpg

https://pokepast.es/27f77dee221728e8

I got reqs using this team. It's simple webs HO and honestly it was fun playing this tier.

Now on Exeggutor, I don't have enough knowledge about the tier neither did I face many Exeggutor to justify whether it is broken or not. However, I did face like 4 Exeggutor and they were OTR or Specs. I personally did not get any difficulties to deal with Exeggutor, but then again it may be because of my team and I guess such Eggy work better against balanced teams.

I will vote no ban because the amount of Exeggutor I played on ladder were not enough to justify its power for the tier. If it was really that strong then I would have seen a lot more than what I had actually seen.
 

5gen

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View attachment 180670
https://pokepast.es/27f77dee221728e8

I got reqs using this team. It's simple webs HO and honestly it was fun playing this tier.

Now on Exeggutor, I don't have enough knowledge about the tier neither did I face many Exeggutor to justify whether it is broken or not. However, I did face like 4 Exeggutor and they were OTR or Specs. I personally did not get any difficulties to deal with Exeggutor, but then again it may be because of my team and I guess such Eggy work better against balanced teams.

I will vote no ban because the amount of Exeggutor I played on ladder were not enough to justify its power for the tier. If it was really that strong then I would have seen a lot more than what I had actually seen.
Hey there, welcome to ZU.

It goes without saying that achieving reqs without using the suspect 'mon in question does not do the suspect justice. Moreover, not facing Exeggutor much on the ladder is not your fault and I would encourage players to actually try building or playing with Exeggutor to get a good feel of it. In my opinion, getting reqs in this manner defeats the purpose of voting because you are not able to differentiate a meta with Exeggutor to a meta without. Rather, your vote will likely be based on theory more than practice and even the reasoning you used is skewed by the team you used and the lack of Eggy you faced on the ladder. Four games with hyper offense entry hazard stack against Exeggutor will not give you an idea of how it affects ZU's metagame or if it's even healthy because your team does a fantastic job at pressuring it.

The fact that the ladder scarcely used Exeggutor during your run for reqs should not be an excuse to unban it. With your logic, I could just as easily say that I find Exeggutor to be extremely powerful because I used it in almost every game and it was used against me. But that is not how things work. The burden is on you to educate yourself and get a feel for the 'mon in question during a suspect test, so I strongly encourage you to do some testing with Exeggutor as well as asking players in the ZU room for some Eggy games before you vote on the 24th.
 
I didn't plan to post here but since I got reqs, I think it's important to give my thoughts on Eggy.
So during my run to the reqs I only faced few Eggy and handle them very easily to due to me running SpD Vullaby.
My biggest concern with Eggy is that it can run a lot of sets none of them being broken. Here is a non-exhaustive lists of Eggy's sets:
Exeggutor @ Choice Specs
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain / Sleep Powder

Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic / Sleep Powder

Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Sleep Powder

Exeggutor @ Mago Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic

Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Endure
- Bullet Seed
- Zen Headbutt

Exeggutor @ Occa Berry / Salac Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Zen Headbutt
- Wood Hammer
- Natural Gift
Obvioulsy not all of this sets are good and some are even outclassed. But the surprise factor is very big in Eggy's side and plays a big role in the decision of Ban or Unban. I'm going to comment a bit every set.

Choice Specs Eggy might be the most common set but is imo very underwhelming compared to other wallbreakers with the same Speed Tier such as Specs Abomasnow, Specs Beheeyem (while a little slower), Toucannon and Rampardos. Every team already has a solid Grass-type check not to lose against Z-Celebrate Leafeon, Shiftry, Simisage and Servine, and same for Psychic-type not to lose against Mr Mime, Beheeyem and Kadabra. It makes Muk a worst grass-type check but well tell me if you have in your team (even stall) a counter to Rampardos or Toucannon (don't search counter to them don't exist until you know their set). Also unlike a lot of these breaker Eggy dies to U-turn, one of the most common move in the tier due to Silvally popularity.

Sleep Powder+3 Attacks Eggy is imo it's most terrifying set due to the Sleep Powder brokeness. However most team have a sleep absorber in either Komala, Shiinotic, Bronzor, Altaria or Dusclops. Also Eggy isn't the first sleep inducer in the tier since we already have Shiinotic, Jumpluff, Smeargle and Butterfree. While Eggy hits harder than Shiinotic, Jumpluff and Smeargle and is harder to pressure than Butterfree, the 50/50 between Sleep Powder/a powerfull move isn't always one the eggy players favor because it can result by being absorbed by a powerful wallbreaker just like Shiftry or Komala.

I only faced once Sunny Day Eggy and it only struggles to find set up opportunities to set up Sun if no Sleep Powder and it can't break trough fire types without Psychic. Also offensive team can revenge kill with either Abomasnow, Leafeon or Shiftry.

The same things applies to OTR Eggy, but for this role it faces heavy competition from Beheeyem and Duosion.

I never faced SubSeed BUT there is that replay where Eggy was able to disturb a stall team featuring SpD Zweilous (and both players were good). This might be a verry dangerous set, and it's the only reason why I still doubt if I'll be voting ban or unban.

Custap Eggy is very powerful if it has the right mu ie. when there are no T-Spikes, no priority and no good wall because it struggles to break through them. The SD version has an easier time breaking through walls but is far weaker unboosted.

/
I never used or faced this set, but since they exist I was obligated to put them here and all i can say is that as far as i'm concerned SD Eggy is outclassed by every other Grass Physical Attackers such as Shiftry, Leafeon and Jumpluff.

So here are the Pokemon you can use to defensively deal with Eggy:
This little chicken can deal with every Eggy set and is immune to Sleep Powder, it can break through Eggys Substitute with every of its moves. If only gets 2HKOed after SR by LO HP Fire under Sun if running a PhysDef spread or a SpD spread whithout Eviolite.
Bronzor is the second best switch-in to Eggy but has to worry about Natural Gift with Occa Berry and Hidden Power Fire under Sun. It can struggle with Sleep Powder sets but otherwise it takes easily on Eggy.
Specially Defensive Zweilous can takes on everything Eggy can use outside of Salac Berry Natural Gift, while being able to OHKO it with Crunch.

Lickilicky can handle every Special sets but doesn't appreciate to get put asleep.
SpD Altaria can come on every move Eggy can use, tho it gets be beaten by Sleep Powder Eggy.
Dusclops can handle Eggy set that aren't Specs and can struggle with Sleep Powder sets.
While it can be OHKOed after SR by Specs Leaf Storm or HP Fire, Shiftry is a very potent answer to Eggy because it resists both of its STAB and is immune to Sleep Powder. Also if running Synthesis it can potentially handle Eggy during the whole battle.

If you are interested, here are the team I used to get reqs:

Wrath (Avalugg) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Roar

Pride (Natu) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Night Shade
- Roost
- Reflect
- Toxic

Lust (Vullaby) @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Toxic
- Defog

Glutonny (Lickilicky) @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Sloth (Pyukumuku) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spite
- Recover
- Rest
- Block

Envy (Dusclops) @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
And here is another team I used to test Eggy a bit:
Edit: So I actually got reqs a second time with this team, so if you're looking for a good HO featuring Eggy try this team out.
181146

Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Endure
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Crustle @ Figy Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Blast
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock

Silvally @ Choice Scarf
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Explosion
- U-turn
- Crunch

Raichu @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot

Drifblim @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute
- Destiny Bond / Calm Mind

Also as for now, I'm pro unban, but I can still change my mind if I see evidence of Eggy's brokeness.

Edit: So I got reqs twice, and this time with a team without Vullaby, Bronzor or anything like that, I'm convince Eggy isn't broken. Also I added replaies for the second team because I forgot to save good ones with the first team. Also good luck for anyone who's still trying to get reqs.
 
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5gen

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Hey all, been testing Exeggutor over the past few days and I'd like to post my observations with an Exeggutor metagame.

Overview

Exeggutor separates itself from other special breakers such as Abomasnow, Beheeyem, and Camerupt thanks to its great STABs, moderate Speed, and support move pool. The point of this suspect is to determine whether or not Exeggutor should come back into the tier and it is crucial to analyze how Exeggutor shapes the metagame. It is a breaker first and foremost as Choice Specs is arguably its best set and with Leaf Storm and Psychic/Psyshock as STABs, little can comfortably switch into Exeggutor. Moreover, unlike slower breakers such as Beheeyem and Camerupt, Exeggutor's base 55 Speed allows it to outspeed threats like Golem, Crustle, and CB Granbull. By the same token, Exeggutor's good natural bulk and typing enable to pivot into Pokemon such as Golem, Electivire, and mono attacking Mareanie, which is incredible for a breaker in this tier. This means that not only is Exeggutor able to threaten a significant portion of the metagame as it switches in, but it also does not usually have to tank a hit before firing off Specs boosted attacks. In addition, Exeggutor can opt for Life Orb, Grassium Z, or Psychium Z over Choice Specs to make it less prediction reliant and free to use support moves. For example, Exeggutor's access to Sleep Powder allows it to punish would be switch-ins such as AV Kecleon, Bronzor, and Lickilicky. Moreover, Exeggutor can run Sunny Day or Trick Room to turn it into a sweeper as opposed to a pure breaker. This gives Exeggutor a unique dynamic as a breaker that is not really seen in the current metagame.

While a significant portion of the metagame cannot switch into Exeggutor, much of the metagame heavily pressures it. Exeggutor's Grass/Psychic typing leaves it weak to common Bug-, Fire-, Ice-, Dark-, and Flying-type coverage, which means it has limited switch-in opportunities and is easy to force out. In addition, similar to other breakers such as Abomasnow, Beheeyem, and Camerupt, Exeggutor is prediction reliant and its numerous weaknesses can make it easy to punish.


Exeggutor's Effect on the Metagame
Exeggutor is a Pokemon that pressures defensive builds and slower teams incredibly well and encourages the use of Dark-types, specially bulky Pokemon, and Grass-type switch-ins. In a metagame as physically inclined as this thanks to threats such as Shiftry, Electivire, Golem, Pinsir, Komala, and so on, Exeggutor thrives as a special breaker. This reminds me of a while back when Specs Abomasnow was incredible because of how anti-meta it was. As a result, the metagame adjusted with an increased use of Pokemon such as SpD Mareanie, Rapidash, SpD Bronzor, and Metang to name a few. Moreover, the metagame began to pressure Specs Abomasnow to the point where teams are able to outplay it offensively. By the same token, we see in an Exeggutor metagame how a special breaker forces teams to adapt and rewards more proactive play.

The advent of Exeggutor diversifies team building in the tier and also encourages momentum-heavy play. Pokemon such as Bronzor, Silvally-Dark, Vullably, AV Kecleon, and Altaria develop more of a niche with Exeggutor in the tier because of their ability to check it. In addition, U-turn is free against Exeggutor which allows players to grab momentum and continually pressure the opponent with other Pokemon. This often forces the Exeggutor user to switch out and give up momentum themselves, so there is a degree of positioning in games with Exeggutor that we see with other breakers such as Abomasnow and Shiftry. On the other hand, while Exeggutor has Sleep Powder and amazing dual STABs to punish bulkier switch-ins (bar SpD Vullaby), it needs to predict correctly. Furthermore, even though Leaf Storm is rather spammable off the bat, the Special Attack drops force Exeggutor to switch.

In my opinion, Exeggutor is a Pokemon that rewards skillful play and forces players to play more proactively. Even though Exeggutor applies considerable pressure against slower teams, the metagame applies significant pressure on Exeggutor due to its numerous weaknesses. Exeggutor's susceptibility to common coverage from Pokemon such as Shiftry, Swanna, Pinsir, Silvally types, and so on makes it easy to force out and reliant on slow pivots and aggressive doubles. This is also apparent with choiced wallbreakers like Golem, Abomasnow, Camerupt, and Beheeyem, where they must predict correctly and can be punished/more easily outplayed depending on what they are locked into. Each of these Pokemon have their own checks and counters, and equally as important, they are pressured very well in the current metagame. The same applies to Exeggutor.

This creates a situation where the metagame naturally pressures Exeggutor and Exeggutor itself preys on physically bulky teams and teams that lack switch-ins to its STABs. Because of this, I believe players have the tools to cover Exeggutor as well as account for the already prominent Pokemon in the metagame. Exeggutor is very much a Pokemon that teams can outplay and one that requires maneuvering and support to be effective. Exeggutor is a wallbreaker first and foremost, so after analyzing its effect on the metagame and how the metagame adapts to it, we must consider if Exeggutor is healthy or not.

Is Exeggutor a Healthy Addition?
There are quite a few ways to go about this question and ultimately for me it comes down to what Exeggutor adds to the metagame versus what kind of stress it puts on the metagame.
Frankly, Exeggutor is not a broken presence in ZU. It is a contained threat and in my experience testing it and watching other people use it, I do not see it as more threatening than Specs Abomasnow. Yes, Exeggutor differentiates itself through Sleep Power, its typing, and its speed tier, but all in all it is not a Pokemon that the metagame cannot handle.

  • What does Exeggutor add? (Healthy aspects)
    • Creates more diversity in the tier
      • Encourages the use of lesser seen Dark-types such as Silvally-Dark, Pawniard, and Vullaby (Zweilous would have a better case for a niche too)
      • Gives specially bulky Pokemon such as Bronzor, AV Kecleon, SpD Altaria, AV Bouffalant, and Lickilicky more of a niche as teams need to cover Exeggutor
      • The fact that a new Pokemon, who imo is not broken, arrives into such a stale metagame (by stale I mean ZU has not received drops and Pokemon have risen to PU; list of viable Pokemon becomes smaller) can spice up the tier's landscape
    • Encourages proactive building and play
      • Exeggutor relies on momentum to be effective and to outplay it also requires momentum; rewards skillful play
      • Exeggutor's vast amount of weaknesses and its limited coverage means teams have the tools to pressure and pivot around it
      • This suspect is probably the most I have seen U-turn, so the metagame may evolve to better cover threats such as Shiftry, Beheeyem, and Abomasnow and create other trends such as more Rocky Helmet
    • Another soft check to top Pokemon such as Golem, Electivire, Gourgeist-XL, and Mareanie
      • While these Pokemon are not incredibly dominant, having an offensive, moderately bulky Pokemon in Exeggutor to soft check them all is nice RIP my man tangela
  • What kind of stress does Exeggutor add? (Unhealthy aspects)
    • Extra wallbreaker
      • More pressure on defensive and slower teams. Forces teams to pack answers to it + other offensive Pokemon
      • Psyshock gives Exeggutor the ability to dent would be switch-ins such as AV Kecleon and Lickilicky
      • Exeggutor also has a variety of sets to choose from aside from Choice Specs. Life Orb makes it less prediction reliant and OTR while somewhat inconsistent, can help it outplay threats such as Silvally-Dark and Swanna off the switch (i.e TR into Bloom Doom)
    • Sleep Powder on a wallbreaker
      • Able to cripple would be switch-ins such as Kecleon, Lickilicky, Bronzor, and Silvally-Dark and freely switch to a teammate that can beat them
    • Exeggutor's presence shifts metagame trends
      • Exeggutor would to some degree alter the state of the metagame and it is difficult to determine whether it will change this stale and balanced metagame for better or for worse
Personally, I'll be voting no ban because I believe that Exeggutor will actually push the tier into a better state. In my opinion, a metagame with Exeggutor will require players to build better, play better, be more creative, and help alter the current tier dynamic of Shiftry/Swanna/Golem to an extent. My belief is that initially, the trends of increased use of Bronzor, specially bulky Pokemon such as AV Kecleon, Lickilicky, and SpD Altaria, Dark-types such as Silvally-Dark, Pawniard, Vullaby, and Zweilous, and an increased use of U-turn will force top Pokemon such as Shiftry, Swanna, Golem, etc to adapt. Moreover, Exeggutor gives teams more of an outlet against Pokemon like Golem, Mareanie, Muk, Machoke, and so on which would really shake up how teams are built and how games are played. That being said, Exeggutor is an incredibly potent breaker and I do recognize that defensive teams may have too many threats to cover with Exeggutor in the tier. In addition, Sleep Powder adds an inherent degree of uncompetitiveness and I can see how that would be a nuisance. Despite this, I personally feel that the metagame is well prepped for Exeggutor and I've built defensive teams that could cover it+top meta threats to success.
Thanks for reading. Here's my builder for this suspect. (Also got replays saved under 5gen and ZUEGG Celica)
 
Since I have played the current eggy ladder quite a lot recently, I wanted to put my thoughts about it down here. I'll split my thoughts in different matchups and try to base my arguments around experience and only consider sets I've seen or used (so no TR or berry sets):

Offense:
Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Recover
- Infestation
- Toxic

Simipour @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

Komala @ Assault Vest
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Seed Bomb
- Sucker Punch

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock

Rotom-Fan @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Air Slash
- Volt Switch
- Trick
Against Offense Eggy is just kind of underwhelming especially with the team I listed, it can't really do anything. Yes nothing can really switch in safly but every member pressures it anyways. Even in Sun you can always revenge it with chlorophyll Shiftry. Sure not every team is as well suited for eggy as this one but in my experience you always have a super hard time bringing Eggy in since you need to be so carefull about U-turn, Knock off and toxics. Yes if eggy is in and gets the prediction right LO, Specs or Z Sets will get a Kill, but there are in my opinion options where this a little easier to pull of since they have more speed or other advantages. (Thinking of Swanna Shiftry or Evire)

Balance:
Silvally-Fighting @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Toxic
- U-turn
- Defog

Combusken @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Komala @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
- Wish
- Protect

Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Recover

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake

Sawsbuck (Sawsbuck-Winter) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Jump Kick
- Horn Leech
- Headbutt

The Balance matchup is where our favorite Palm probaly shines th most. (Yes there are Balance teams that are way better equipped for Eggy) Since Eggy comes in on mareanie and to some extend also on Golem and pretty much gets a kill afterwards it is not easy to deal with it. If you want to prevent the eggy destruction you need to really pull a double pretty much evertime marieanie is in. It is still possible to force out even Sun variants since scarf sawsbuck outspeeds and Double Edge hurts. If your Balance Squad happens to have Bronzor or like AV Kecleon you have a better chance but that's where sleep powder comes in. Like 5Gen already mentioned Sleep powder is can relativly easly muscle past it's checks.

Stall:
Silvally-Rock (Silvally-Fighting) @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 16 Def / 236 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roar
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn
- Defog

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Wish

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Rest

Gourgeist-Large @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Komala @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
- Protect
- Wish

Pyukumuku @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Rest
- Spite
- Recover
Exeggutor is "almost" able to break stall. In my suspect reqs I stalled a lot of my games and didn't actually lose a game with it but LO Eggy made it pretty close a couple of times. Specs is not such a problem but Life Orb certainly is. The problem is Brozor gets sleeped and Lickilicky just doesn't do anything to it. Eggy just sits there keeps itself healthy with Giga Drain and spams attcks waiting for a crit. Then you beat is basically by getting the sleep powder miss with Bronzor or waking up early and getting a toxic off.

Conclusion:

Those were really only my experiences and no Theorymoning. I think though that Exeggutor is not broken and can stay in the tier, but I also think those berry set can put Eggy on a higher level if people experiment more. so unban I guess.
 
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I had promised to write a post about my vote so here we are. I hesitated a lot before making a decision but i will finally vote to ban exeggutor.

I will try to write a short post. The reason why i will vote to keep exeggutor in ZUBL is because I think that it makes the ZU less competitive and limits even more the variety of playstyles. 5gen has very well explained the strength of its choice specs set, I have nothing to add except that it's a set which opresses more the defensive playstyles and makes stronger offenses, what reinforces the actual trends instead of giving more freedom to bulky archetypes. It makes top tiers even stronger (Shiftry, Combusken, Swanna) instead of neutralizes them and pressures things that we dont need to have pressured. Only with that, it already doesn't have a positive impact on the tier.

The fact that exeggutor doesnt only have a walbreaker set but also several others is an other point i would like to talk about. I will focus about the Harvest set. Sub Harvest is an issue in itself, especially the set of orange memes (Sub/Leech Seed/Sleep powder/Psychic) with a combination of unhealthy elements with sleep, randomized stuff with harvest and leech seed which is very punitive. It is also a set which is difficult to revenge kill even with U-turn because the opponent just has to Sub a second time on U-Turn (which costs 0 hp thanks to the Berry) to force you in difficult situation where you have to sac something without gaining any momentum or any damage. Other mons which are potentially able to break the sub are unfortunately as well often killed by Psychic or put to sleep by sleep powder, which makes the player helpless against this set who is forced to lose a mon only to break the sub. The fact that SubHarvest is difficult to guess at the team preview makes it also difficult to play around effectively, especially if the opponent is able to bluff the specs.

The presence of exeggutor increases also the presence of several trappers, which is also not a healthy trend for a tier.

To summarize my thoughts, I dont think exeggutor is broken in the sense where it is a mon which threats the whole meta without having good ways to be managed. The current meta is storng against exeggutor because the mons and the dominant playstyles go against it and it's the reason why eggy looks balanced in the meta. However, I dont think it is a good addition due to the unhealthy features it brings and the pressure it excerces against teams, especially on bulky builds.

I dont consider either that the healthy elements that exeggutor theorically brings are enough to justify an unban. The fact that you have an other mon playable is not a reason to decide if the mon deserves to be ZU, the new toy syndrom dispears quickly after several weeks anyway and changes are not always good. It is not a good role compresser either because it cannot be the single switch in to golem and electivire, if anything it makes it more dangerous because it forces the golem/electivire to dont click their ground/electric move. The meta is already very proactive and makes pivot moves better only means to make offensive playstyle better which is once again already the trends and reinforces the limits of balances.

This coconut makes the meta personally less enjoyable to play than the previous meta. I dont consider it as a healthy presence in the tier and i will vote to keep exeggutor in ZUBL.
 
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5gen

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Usage stats are out

We lost
and gained
and


Here are out ladder stats

These are some pretty big changes. Abomasnow had a massive impact on how defensive teams functioned in the tier and the effect it had on the metagame also helped push Pokemon such as Bronzor, Mareanie, Rapidash, etc into prominence. Losing Abomasnow definitely frees up the necessity for an Ice-type check on teams and we'll see how teams adapt to that change. On the other hand, Silvally-Ghost and Poliwrath return to the tier. In the short time it was in the tier, Silvally-Ghost solidified itself as one of the best support Pokemon in the tier. I do not see any reason for Silvally-Ghost to not return to its prior level even if the metagame is different. Similarly, it seems like Poliwrath will fare quite well, especially with the absence of Tangela. Poliwrath's typing, movepool, and stats make it an extremely flexible Pokemon and it'll definitely have a major impact on the tier. It is important to look at how Poliwrath shapes rain in the days to come, as Poliwrath could potentially become a broken element with rain support.
 
yay more things that Shiftry preys on
I can easily see weather teams striking back, specially with Poliwrath and Exeggutor back, could Solar Beam Shiftry be a thing now? It seems like a nice Sun Abuser, but I hope it doesn't dominate the metagame entirely to be suspect-worthy
 

Finchinator

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Not that I necessarily think now is the best time for a test as the metagame is in a transition phase still (or just coming off of being in one, rather), but does anyone else find Shiftry to be problematic?

I find there to be a lack of consistent defensive countermeasures currently. I think that the good ol' patch on a Silvally that can check it solution to be ok in the short term in practice, but eventually the overall stress of field and position management proves to be a problem as you lose a method of reliably checking Shiftry as the game progresses. While I must admit that Shiftry has some shortcomings -- bulk is minimal, defensive typing does no favors, and the speed tier is not particularly fast, even for ZU standards. With that said, Shiftry has an unmatched offensive arsenal at its disposal. Combine this with still serviceable speed and an unmatched level of versatility on the offensive end and I find reliably answering Shiftry to be a challenge.

For more offensive teams, suffocating it is entirely possible. While it may eventually force you to trade with it once it gets an opening in the mid-game or at least get significant chip off, many match-ups can be played out in a way that assures that Shiftry either does not come in often whatsoever or only comes in after something else dies or takes a lot of damage in return for letting them pivot into it. Shiftry lacks the defensive presence to get in consistently against a more fast-paced team, which is a very big point against it. I do recognize that offense is the most common archetype right now, arguably, too, which also plays into this argument.

However, I feel like it is far from the only valid style of team and Shiftry can still hold its weight there at least. When it comes to bulkier teams, specifically of the balanced variety, Shiftry can be extremely difficult. It is hard to out-pressure a lot of offensive teams with Shiftry, thus giving it inevitable openings or playing the entire game paranoid of that, giving other threats more openings than you otherwise would have to. This combined with the raw offensive threat Shiftry poses once it comes in makes it a pretty devestating Pokemon to face, in my opinion. Personally, I find the mixed set to be uncounterable outside of some pretty specific measures. When it comes to checking it, it is still pretty hard, but some Silvally and Poison types can do the trick initially. This still leaves you vulnerable after they take some chip, however, and I find that quite easy to set-up in my experience.

I am not saying you dudes should suspect or ban it promptly, but I do think it warrants some discussion given how potent an offensive presence it is in this metagame.
 

Xayah

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Not that I necessarily think now is the best time for a test as the metagame is in a transition phase still (or just coming off of being in one, rather), but does anyone else find Shiftry to be problematic?

I find there to be a lack of consistent defensive countermeasures currently. I think that the good ol' patch on a Silvally that can check it solution to be ok in the short term in practice, but eventually the overall stress of field and position management proves to be a problem as you lose a method of reliably checking Shiftry as the game progresses. While I must admit that Shiftry has some shortcomings -- bulk is minimal, defensive typing does no favors, and the speed tier is not particularly fast, even for ZU standards. With that said, Shiftry has an unmatched offensive arsenal at its disposal. Combine this with still serviceable speed and an unmatched level of versatility on the offensive end and I find reliably answering Shiftry to be a challenge.

For more offensive teams, suffocating it is entirely possible. While it may eventually force you to trade with it once it gets an opening in the mid-game or at least get significant chip off, many match-ups can be played out in a way that assures that Shiftry either does not come in often whatsoever or only comes in after something else dies or takes a lot of damage in return for letting them pivot into it. Shiftry lacks the defensive presence to get in consistently against a more fast-paced team, which is a very big point against it. I do recognize that offense is the most common archetype right now, arguably, too, which also plays into this argument.

However, I feel like it is far from the only valid style of team and Shiftry can still hold its weight there at least. When it comes to bulkier teams, specifically of the balanced variety, Shiftry can be extremely difficult. It is hard to out-pressure a lot of offensive teams with Shiftry, thus giving it inevitable openings or playing the entire game paranoid of that, giving other threats more openings than you otherwise would have to. This combined with the raw offensive threat Shiftry poses once it comes in makes it a pretty devestating Pokemon to face, in my opinion. Personally, I find the mixed set to be uncounterable outside of some pretty specific measures. When it comes to checking it, it is still pretty hard, but some Silvally and Poison types can do the trick initially. This still leaves you vulnerable after they take some chip, however, and I find that quite easy to set-up in my experience.

I am not saying you dudes should suspect or ban it promptly, but I do think it warrants some discussion given how potent an offensive presence it is in this metagame.
To be clear, Shiftry has obviously gotten a lot of discussion in the past and a test has always been something that's been considered, though I'm personally opposed to it. Especially right now, but you aren't calling for that so I won't get into that exactly.

As you yourself said, Shiftry against offensive teams, which are the best right now, is by no means overwhelming, so again I don't see a point in delving deep into that. Rather, bulkier teams are truly scared of the mon and I understand that. And yea, you're not overwhelming an offensive team with a bulky team. However, I think it's more than possible to check it. Most prominently, Shiinotic saw a rise in usage back when Shiftry was being discussed a month or two ago and there's no reason for it to drop now. In addition to being an insanely good Shiftry answer, it's also just generally very fat, either on the physical or special side depending on spread, can check Golem, Electivire, maybe Eggy (would have to do calcs on that), and the newly dropped Poliwrath, in addition to some other less notable stuff, and Strength Sap + Spore is broken.

If you don't want to use Shiinotic, that's fine. Silvally-Fighting is the best Silvally forme right now mainly due to Shiftry's influence and can stop it at least a couple times, especially in combination with something like Muk. Other Silvally formes like Poison and Dragon can perform similar task thanks to their Leaf Storm resistance. Now, I know these aren't counters and can't be chipped or they lose the ability to check it consistently, but unless you're running stall, Shiftry is still going to struggle to switch in against bulkier balances due to its god awful bulk and tendency to wear itself down with Life Orb, so even forcing it back out a few times is quite good already.

In my eyes, Shiftry is simply the best of the 'mid-speed breaker' kind of mon that bulkier balances always have and will always struggle with. I have no intention of undermining its power, it's S rank for a reason. However, I don't consider it broken as in my opinion, I've been able to build fine balances while keeping it in mind, and my offenses have nearly ignored it and just ran a Silvally to pressure it plenty. That said, I am speaking from the perspective of an offense player mainly, so I imagine there is some bias in my view, so I, and I assume the rest of the council, will continue keeping an eye on it for the upcoming months.

EDIT: Somehow forgot to mention Machoke and Monferno, which are two mons I've been liking recently myself.
 
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I thought I'd add my two cents to the Shiftry conversation. I have openly thought that Shiftry was an unhealthy presence upon the meta as has been covered many times previous (1/3 of my teams have Shiinotic for no reason other then Shiftry) so I won't go back on these points that have been well covered.

Instead I would like to cover on how I see the recent metagame changes, have in my opinion made Shiftry an even more overbearing presence. Of cause broad statements like this are just that, broad. But I will attempt to explain my perspective.
The recent metagame changes I am of cause talking about is primarily the drops of Poli and Ghostvally and also the unbanning of Eggy. On top of these additions also sees the rise of Abomasnow. Put simply, this has seen the increased viability of weather teams with two fantastic abusers in LO Eggy and BD Poli and our Primary setter who beat both these threats leave in Abomasnow. With the improvement of HO weather archetypes, pure offense teams previously the most common archetype and also the archetype that dealt with Shiftry the best have taken a setback. As a result of HO getting better, offense has gotten worse. As a result of this, balance teams have gotten better for both their good MU against HO weather teams and also the downturn in pure offense teams. And now we get to my point on Shiftry, it is undoubtedly the best balance breaker in ZU (props to Toucannon and SubSD Bouff) which basically translates to more matchups were Shiftry is incredibly advantaged from team preview onwards. On top of Shiftry preying on more balance teams, it is also a hard one man Cteam against Sun teams, profiting against this play style also. So an increase in weather (sun mainly), and balance has undoubtedly made Shiftry even better again.

On top of an increase in favourable amount of team matchups for Shiftry, is also the new additions to the tier. All three of Ghostvally, Poli and Eggy are heavily pressured, threatened and essentially beaten in most scenarios by Shiftry, again contributing to what I believe may push Shiftry over the edge.

Likewise to Finch, I am certainly not calling for a suspect at the moment, as the meta has had some drastic changes in the past fortnight and will need some time to settle and reshape. But I would suggest that Shiftry needs to be watched closely going into the future as I believe it may well become an overly unhealthy presence in the meta.
 
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This has been a long time since I did this for the last time.
Here are the Pokemon which have more than 3.41% usage in ZU:
184944

Also, I'd like to give my thoughts on the shift.

Abomasnow leaving is a big change for the tier for two big reasons. First, without Abomasnow there are only few offensive Ice-type (Lapras, Beartic and Regice) which are only rarely seen which means team will be able to run less strong Ice resists like they used to do. This also means Water-type are now able to be more consistent Ice-resists even they still fear Lapras' Freeze Dry and Regice's Thunderbolt.
The second change is that now weather teams are a thing again. Both Rain and Sun are potent offensive archetypes and I see them becoming the premier offensive archetype due the incredible mu they have against sticky webs and spikes stacking, the mu against screens isn't bad either thanks to Encore Vullaby and the boost in both speed and power for the Pokemon under weather. ZU has a lot of abusers and setters for both archetypes. Here is non-exhaustive list for both:
Setters:

Abusers:
(the bear isn't dead)
Setters:

Abusers:
Also note that every Sylvally form learns both Rain Dance and Sunny Day.


Silvally-Ghost is for me in the same situation than Silvally-Water, where it has a great typing and stats, but struggles because it's a Silvally form that doesn't handle Shiftry. Silvally-Ghost has the problem to be unable to deal significant damages to the Normal-types it is supposed to check. However it's great to have a Ghost-type that can fit into Bulky Offense other than Misdreavus. It might also give competition to both Drifblim and Gourgeist-S, even if like I stated before I foresee these archetype die slowly. I see it starting at A- in the VR just like Silvally-Dragon and Water.


I have an unpopular opinion on Poliwrath. Imo Poliwrath outside of Rain isn't a good Pokemon. There to much Pokemon that resists both its STAB such as Shiinotic, Gourgeist, Altaria, Exeggutor, Swanna, Jumpluff and Mareanie. Even if Ice Punch/Beam and Circle Throw+SR helps with a lot of them, it means that Poli is easily walled by huge part of the tier. Another big issue with Poliwrath is that it's a Fighting type that loses to Shiftry. Poliwrath defensive sets ends by not walling a lot of Pokemon in the tier outside of Fire and Rock-types. But there is a Pokemon that does it the same way but better due to not being weak to Electric and Grass: Hakamo-o. With its Eviolite Hakamo-o has roughly the same bulk as Poliwrath but with more useful resistances and less common weakness. Without Roselia in the tier, it's harder to abuse Defensive Poliwrath+hazards like it did in previous metagame since Crustle and Mareanie don't fiting well with it (Crustle fits better on HO and Mareanie have redundant resistances and weakness with Poliwrath), leaving it with just Quilladin to make a Spike+Circle Throw combo. However, Belly Drum Poliwrath is a huge threat under Rain because it outspeeds our scarfers and can OHKO/2HKO almost every Pokemon under Rain, even Mareanie, Gourgeist-XL and Shiinotic. I see this Pokemon start at B+ due to its power on rain team.
 
Hello my name is WMAR, an unknown ZU player who loves to build. Its good to see big man Exeggutor got unbanned so seeing a mon i never played with unbanned makes building more fun. The purpose of this post is i saw a post that really got me back in the SM ZU NP Stage 1.0 which talks about another suspect about Throh. Now with the prominence of Swanna and the return of Silvally-Ghost, i feel Throh has a less chance of being unhealthy. I thought i would love to bring this topic back just to have some discussion. Now i know that discussion right now is about Shiftry but i like the topic of unbans and throh is the perfect candidate. Below is a theoretical set i feel is what makes Throh broken.


Throh @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Bulk Up / Knock Off

This set, perfect with hazard stack, is what i believe to be broken, but now we have different meta, Swanna being top tier, Plethora of Silvally formes, especially Silvally-Ghost and Fighting. Im no fan of throh personally but like it was said in the first Stage, i agree that it can be a healthy addition to the tier. Lemme know your thoughts on Throh, i would love a civil conversation. This is WMAR, and thank you :)
 

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