Smogon Premier League XIV - Commencement Thread

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Clementine

one for the money, two for the show
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Community Leader Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
UUPL Champion
these are super nice notifications to wake up to omg
I wanna thank everyone involved in these customs creation, mainly Amaranth for reaching out a month in advance, making sure everything was okay for artists, Kyledove on twitter for approving the use of their incredible sprites, and Brumirage for carrying us all in the custom avatars department (seriously, making any avatars wouldn't have been possible if she didn't review what we made and allowed us to pick parts of her sprites, etc)
huge shoutouts for sharpclaw for working on most of these as well, and of course, my man Altthiel who has been helping on and reviewing 99% of the avatars I've made for the past 3 years or so, huge thanks to him for the Tyrants-2 avatar, he helped me soooo much omg
and huge thanks to the managers for always being extra nice to us artists, i know some of yall asked to pay me but as I said before, I'm mostly working with other people's sprites (with their approval, but still)

I will be posting every wip/previous version in my art thread as well if you wanna have a look
Here are this year's avatars that I made (with proper credit each time uwu)
using Kyledove's Nemona sprite
based on Kyledove's Morty-Masters and Nessa-Masters sprites

based on Kyledove's Turo and ORAS Pokemaniac sprites, huge shoutouts Altthiel <3
based on Kyledove's Hilda-Masters and Brock-Masters sprites

Glad to have been part of the spriting project this SPL :]
Hope everyone has a nice season, rooting for Raiders because Baloor keeps harassing me to watch their games
Love y'all, stay safe
 

Wigglytuff

mad @ redacted in redacted
is a Tiering Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
it's crazy to me how my boy Clementine still doesn't have the art badge despite carrying the official team tournament avatars for over a year. Not to mention how he does a lot of commissions for unofficial tour prizes/customs in general for free depending on the difficulty (he's done several for me this year alone). shoutout to the other artists, of course, they all do great work, but clem has been putting in overtime and deserves more recognition than he's been given. Without him, these likely wouldn't have been finished this fast with this outstanding level of quality.

i hope to see all the artists who work on the customs get the badge soon here eventually because they are painfully overworked, but, I needed to give my friend a special shout out. especially because I think he plans on calming down with the amount of work he's doing and it would suck if he stops before he is rewarded for it.

edit: i understand the parameters for customs and the art badge are a little scuffed, however, I feel this is a particularly special case due to the absolute insane work ethic clem has. while the customs are clems most notable contribution, he does a ton of banners for projects and tournaments which should also be in consideration as he puts those out just as much.
if u fr post a badge nom rn
 
Every year, there is talk of removing RBY/GSC from SPL because they're trash coinflip tiers -- like extreme matchup disparities, Terrastalization, pinch berries, and Z-moves don't win games just as quickly quickly as bad RNG -- and of how Smogon should be CG-focused. It's rare that a new-gens player is successful in old gens, and rare that an old-gens player plays new gens, and it's clear that most old gens remain popular with sizeable communities and continue to grow year after year. Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
We see people complaining about certain players going undrafted in these tours as well. Whether any one of those people has a point is irrelevant. The fact is, people are snubbed in favor of multi-gen flex slots. This becomes a problem when you have 9+ gens and 12+ slots in a tour -- a number that will likely grow in the coming years with a 10th and 11th generation -- and when there is a disconnect between the playerbases and managers. It isn't the fault of the players or managers that this is a multidisciplinary competition. It's just hard to keep up with the goings on in the mons community when there is a general decentralization and compartmentalization of playerbases. This isn't limited to SPL, either. I do not mean this to be an indictment of anyone either. I just see it as a problem that one person can be accepted as a top player in the community, but will not be allowed to play in the most prestigious old-gen team tournament -- because SPL cannot pretend to be a CG tournament when two thirds of the slots and eight of nine tiers are devoted to old gens, including the flavor-of-last-month tier gen 8.
It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example. It doesn't help CG that you put it together with tiers that 'nobody plays' -- or maybe it was 'nobody who's anybody?' -- and it doesn't help old gens when much of their playerbases go unnoticed in favor of players who are picked up to 'do a job', to take care of the dirty work that obviously no one is interested in doing. I do not mean to demean any of the players in this or a previous year's SPL. I don't have a list of players I think aren't deserving of playing in any of them, nor do I have a list of players who I think deserve a slot more than any others. Obviously the tournament should be exclusive, and having flexible picks is one of the easiest ways to look for strength across tiers. I think it should be more exclusive, though, and that there should be fewer flex picks and more mains, because the highest level of competition and the most exciting matchups week-to-week make for a better sport.
The best players often get their chances eventually. There are some players in recent years who have proven themselves to be the best players in one tier or another after getting their chance. There are also players who have proven year upon year that they are talented who have been left on the table. And there are also players who have not proven anything who get the chance to play in SPL and exceed all expectations to prove that they deserve a seat at the table, whether in their first or fifth year on the scene. Politics aside, I'm here because I love the game and the people in it. It's not personal, either, but I know there are a significant number of talented and new players who see SPL as an unattainable dream. "Why should I play RBY when I'll never be good enough to get drafted?" and "This was the year I worked so hard to get in. What was I working so hard for? Haven't I proven myself already?" are things I've heard after being around for a minute. I get that it's supposed to be competitive, but when people play every tour on the calendar to great success with the dream of playing against even tougher competition in a team tour setting, they probably aren't playing just for fun. This is the most important tour on the site for some, and there are things that can be improved for both the viewing and participating experience.
Let's also not forget that this is as much a spectator sport as a player sport. Maybe decoupling old gens from CG hurts old-gens stock. I doubt it. We saw what happened when Smogon dropped RBY and Pokemonperfect took up the mantle. Having two tours does not diminish the spectator experience. People stumble upon old gens on Smogon all the time -- and not through SPL. BKC is on a mission to create a new crop of Smogon's best and brightest, too. A number of people stumbled on their favorite tier through his channel. Amaranth and Cherryb0ng don't have the same reach, but their content is of the highest quality and has been inspirational to some. Most people don't come here to watch CG. It's highly likely that they don't even know what Smogon is until long after watching a YT video or being introduced to the PS! simulator through a friend. Most casual players learn the game through YT or on the ladder, and we have rules of play that are simple and unobtrusive to the casual playing experience. In other words, the casual hobbyist is likely not to know what SPL is or how to navigate the site to find it, and should they stumble upon it, they will not be looking to see the latest DPP techs unless they've already decided to play DPP. There are plenty of bubbles on the site. I emphasize playerbases for that reason. There is no least common denominator when people either love or hate a tier based on what they grew up with or what's fun to them.
I'd like to think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this, as someone who has bounced around a couple of old gens communities and made the effort to bring talented casual ladder players into semi-competitive play on Discord side tournaments. I've seen which communities are thriving and healthy, and which are a bit starved for engagement. Usually the tiers that do the best at drawing new crowds are the ones that see a strong connectivity between the top players and the grassroots. There are seeds to be watered and fruits to be sown, regardless of tier, and I don't think we can continue to pretend that Smogon is a unified community of players who play the same tiers. The Classic is supposed to be the 'old gens tour' -- a bone thrown to enthusiasts of gens 1-5. It's of no consolation to players of gens 6-8. Gen 6 is home to one of the strongest communities on Smogon, as we saw with this year's inaugural ORAS Invitational. I can recall knowing about SPL two or three years before I was even active on the site, but I only learned of the Classic just before joining. There are levels to the game, and SPL is very clearly the highest and most prestigious to the casual observer.
Once again, I have not set out to lambast anyone or make light of the tournament. Overall, I'm quite pleased with this year's tournament, and I'm excited to see the matchups that will be played. I do not contest that the Smogon community tries to do what's best for the game as a whole -- after all, what use is speaking my mind when I'm convinced I'll just go unheard? I believe there is room for improvement and the narrative that the status quo is optimal falls short of painting the full picture. I think a bit more attention needs to be paid to the enthusiasm of old gens players, and an old-gens team tour decoupled from a CG-centric SPL improves the chances that some of the hardest workers on the site are noticed years ahead of schedule and improves the viewing experience. Old gens are not an afterthought to the playerbases any more than gen 7 might be an afterthought to a gen 6 player. It's clear there is a slight disconnect between different parts of the community. If you don't agree it's a problem now, then please consider what things will look like with a gen 10 or 11. It's time to consider the future of the game, because old gens players are becoming increasingly common, generation after generation, year after year. Or idk, just drop non-preview gens because they're unplayable coinflip tiers and 32 Recover PP is busted

:blobshrug:
 

SoulWind

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis the 6th Smogon Classic Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 32 Championwon the 9th Official Ladder Tournamentis a defending SPL Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Championis a Two-Time Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Champion
Big Chungus Winner
Every year, there is talk of removing RBY/GSC from SPL because they're trash coinflip tiers -- like extreme matchup disparities, Terrastalization, pinch berries, and Z-moves don't win games just as quickly quickly as bad RNG -- and of how Smogon should be CG-focused. It's rare that a new-gens player is successful in old gens, and rare that an old-gens player plays new gens, and it's clear that most old gens remain popular with sizeable communities and continue to grow year after year. Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
We see people complaining about certain players going undrafted in these tours as well. Whether any one of those people has a point is irrelevant. The fact is, people are snubbed in favor of multi-gen flex slots. This becomes a problem when you have 9+ gens and 12+ slots in a tour -- a number that will likely grow in the coming years with a 10th and 11th generation -- and when there is a disconnect between the playerbases and managers. It isn't the fault of the players or managers that this is a multidisciplinary competition. It's just hard to keep up with the goings on in the mons community when there is a general decentralization and compartmentalization of playerbases. This isn't limited to SPL, either. I do not mean this to be an indictment of anyone either. I just see it as a problem that one person can be accepted as a top player in the community, but will not be allowed to play in the most prestigious old-gen team tournament -- because SPL cannot pretend to be a CG tournament when two thirds of the slots and eight of nine tiers are devoted to old gens, including the flavor-of-last-month tier gen 8.
It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example. It doesn't help CG that you put it together with tiers that 'nobody plays' -- or maybe it was 'nobody who's anybody?' -- and it doesn't help old gens when much of their playerbases go unnoticed in favor of players who are picked up to 'do a job', to take care of the dirty work that obviously no one is interested in doing. I do not mean to demean any of the players in this or a previous year's SPL. I don't have a list of players I think aren't deserving of playing in any of them, nor do I have a list of players who I think deserve a slot more than any others. Obviously the tournament should be exclusive, and having flexible picks is one of the easiest ways to look for strength across tiers. I think it should be more exclusive, though, and that there should be fewer flex picks and more mains, because the highest level of competition and the most exciting matchups week-to-week make for a better sport.
The best players often get their chances eventually. There are some players in recent years who have proven themselves to be the best players in one tier or another after getting their chance. There are also players who have proven year upon year that they are talented who have been left on the table. And there are also players who have not proven anything who get the chance to play in SPL and exceed all expectations to prove that they deserve a seat at the table, whether in their first or fifth year on the scene. Politics aside, I'm here because I love the game and the people in it. It's not personal, either, but I know there are a significant number of talented and new players who see SPL as an unattainable dream. "Why should I play RBY when I'll never be good enough to get drafted?" and "This was the year I worked so hard to get in. What was I working so hard for? Haven't I proven myself already?" are things I've heard after being around for a minute. I get that it's supposed to be competitive, but when people play every tour on the calendar to great success with the dream of playing against even tougher competition in a team tour setting, they probably aren't playing just for fun. This is the most important tour on the site for some, and there are things that can be improved for both the viewing and participating experience.
Let's also not forget that this is as much a spectator sport as a player sport. Maybe decoupling old gens from CG hurts old-gens stock. I doubt it. We saw what happened when Smogon dropped RBY and Pokemonperfect took up the mantle. Having two tours does not diminish the spectator experience. People stumble upon old gens on Smogon all the time -- and not through SPL. BKC is on a mission to create a new crop of Smogon's best and brightest, too. A number of people stumbled on their favorite tier through his channel. Amaranth and Cherryb0ng don't have the same reach, but their content is of the highest quality and has been inspirational to some. Most people don't come here to watch CG. It's highly likely that they don't even know what Smogon is until long after watching a YT video or being introduced to the PS! simulator through a friend. Most casual players learn the game through YT or on the ladder, and we have rules of play that are simple and unobtrusive to the casual playing experience. In other words, the casual hobbyist is likely not to know what SPL is or how to navigate the site to find it, and should they stumble upon it, they will not be looking to see the latest DPP techs unless they've already decided to play DPP. There are plenty of bubbles on the site. I emphasize playerbases for that reason. There is no least common denominator when people either love or hate a tier based on what they grew up with or what's fun to them.
I'd like to think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this, as someone who has bounced around a couple of old gens communities and made the effort to bring talented casual ladder players into semi-competitive play on Discord side tournaments. I've seen which communities are thriving and healthy, and which are a bit starved for engagement. Usually the tiers that do the best at drawing new crowds are the ones that see a strong connectivity between the top players and the grassroots. There are seeds to be watered and fruits to be sown, regardless of tier, and I don't think we can continue to pretend that Smogon is a unified community of players who play the same tiers. The Classic is supposed to be the 'old gens tour' -- a bone thrown to enthusiasts of gens 1-5. It's of no consolation to players of gens 6-8. Gen 6 is home to one of the strongest communities on Smogon, as we saw with this year's inaugural ORAS Invitational. I can recall knowing about SPL two or three years before I was even active on the site, but I only learned of the Classic just before joining. There are levels to the game, and SPL is very clearly the highest and most prestigious to the casual observer.
Once again, I have not set out to lambast anyone or make light of the tournament. Overall, I'm quite pleased with this year's tournament, and I'm excited to see the matchups that will be played. I do not contest that the Smogon community tries to do what's best for the game as a whole -- after all, what use is speaking my mind when I'm convinced I'll just go unheard? I believe there is room for improvement and the narrative that the status quo is optimal falls short of painting the full picture. I think a bit more attention needs to be paid to the enthusiasm of old gens players, and an old-gens team tour decoupled from a CG-centric SPL improves the chances that some of the hardest workers on the site are noticed years ahead of schedule and improves the viewing experience. Old gens are not an afterthought to the playerbases any more than gen 7 might be an afterthought to a gen 6 player. It's clear there is a slight disconnect between different parts of the community. If you don't agree it's a problem now, then please consider what things will look like with a gen 10 or 11. It's time to consider the future of the game, because old gens players are becoming increasingly common, generation after generation, year after year. Or idk, just drop non-preview gens because they're unplayable coinflip tiers and 32 Recover PP is busted

:blobshrug:
ok
 
Every year, there is talk of removing RBY/GSC from SPL because they're trash coinflip tiers -- like extreme matchup disparities, Terrastalization, pinch berries, and Z-moves don't win games just as quickly quickly as bad RNG -- and of how Smogon should be CG-focused. It's rare that a new-gens player is successful in old gens, and rare that an old-gens player plays new gens, and it's clear that most old gens remain popular with sizeable communities and continue to grow year after year. Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
We see people complaining about certain players going undrafted in these tours as well. Whether any one of those people has a point is irrelevant. The fact is, people are snubbed in favor of multi-gen flex slots. This becomes a problem when you have 9+ gens and 12+ slots in a tour -- a number that will likely grow in the coming years with a 10th and 11th generation -- and when there is a disconnect between the playerbases and managers. It isn't the fault of the players or managers that this is a multidisciplinary competition. It's just hard to keep up with the goings on in the mons community when there is a general decentralization and compartmentalization of playerbases. This isn't limited to SPL, either. I do not mean this to be an indictment of anyone either. I just see it as a problem that one person can be accepted as a top player in the community, but will not be allowed to play in the most prestigious old-gen team tournament -- because SPL cannot pretend to be a CG tournament when two thirds of the slots and eight of nine tiers are devoted to old gens, including the flavor-of-last-month tier gen 8.
It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example. It doesn't help CG that you put it together with tiers that 'nobody plays' -- or maybe it was 'nobody who's anybody?' -- and it doesn't help old gens when much of their playerbases go unnoticed in favor of players who are picked up to 'do a job', to take care of the dirty work that obviously no one is interested in doing. I do not mean to demean any of the players in this or a previous year's SPL. I don't have a list of players I think aren't deserving of playing in any of them, nor do I have a list of players who I think deserve a slot more than any others. Obviously the tournament should be exclusive, and having flexible picks is one of the easiest ways to look for strength across tiers. I think it should be more exclusive, though, and that there should be fewer flex picks and more mains, because the highest level of competition and the most exciting matchups week-to-week make for a better sport.
The best players often get their chances eventually. There are some players in recent years who have proven themselves to be the best players in one tier or another after getting their chance. There are also players who have proven year upon year that they are talented who have been left on the table. And there are also players who have not proven anything who get the chance to play in SPL and exceed all expectations to prove that they deserve a seat at the table, whether in their first or fifth year on the scene. Politics aside, I'm here because I love the game and the people in it. It's not personal, either, but I know there are a significant number of talented and new players who see SPL as an unattainable dream. "Why should I play RBY when I'll never be good enough to get drafted?" and "This was the year I worked so hard to get in. What was I working so hard for? Haven't I proven myself already?" are things I've heard after being around for a minute. I get that it's supposed to be competitive, but when people play every tour on the calendar to great success with the dream of playing against even tougher competition in a team tour setting, they probably aren't playing just for fun. This is the most important tour on the site for some, and there are things that can be improved for both the viewing and participating experience.
Let's also not forget that this is as much a spectator sport as a player sport. Maybe decoupling old gens from CG hurts old-gens stock. I doubt it. We saw what happened when Smogon dropped RBY and Pokemonperfect took up the mantle. Having two tours does not diminish the spectator experience. People stumble upon old gens on Smogon all the time -- and not through SPL. BKC is on a mission to create a new crop of Smogon's best and brightest, too. A number of people stumbled on their favorite tier through his channel. Amaranth and Cherryb0ng don't have the same reach, but their content is of the highest quality and has been inspirational to some. Most people don't come here to watch CG. It's highly likely that they don't even know what Smogon is until long after watching a YT video or being introduced to the PS! simulator through a friend. Most casual players learn the game through YT or on the ladder, and we have rules of play that are simple and unobtrusive to the casual playing experience. In other words, the casual hobbyist is likely not to know what SPL is or how to navigate the site to find it, and should they stumble upon it, they will not be looking to see the latest DPP techs unless they've already decided to play DPP. There are plenty of bubbles on the site. I emphasize playerbases for that reason. There is no least common denominator when people either love or hate a tier based on what they grew up with or what's fun to them.
I'd like to think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this, as someone who has bounced around a couple of old gens communities and made the effort to bring talented casual ladder players into semi-competitive play on Discord side tournaments. I've seen which communities are thriving and healthy, and which are a bit starved for engagement. Usually the tiers that do the best at drawing new crowds are the ones that see a strong connectivity between the top players and the grassroots. There are seeds to be watered and fruits to be sown, regardless of tier, and I don't think we can continue to pretend that Smogon is a unified community of players who play the same tiers. The Classic is supposed to be the 'old gens tour' -- a bone thrown to enthusiasts of gens 1-5. It's of no consolation to players of gens 6-8. Gen 6 is home to one of the strongest communities on Smogon, as we saw with this year's inaugural ORAS Invitational. I can recall knowing about SPL two or three years before I was even active on the site, but I only learned of the Classic just before joining. There are levels to the game, and SPL is very clearly the highest and most prestigious to the casual observer.
Once again, I have not set out to lambast anyone or make light of the tournament. Overall, I'm quite pleased with this year's tournament, and I'm excited to see the matchups that will be played. I do not contest that the Smogon community tries to do what's best for the game as a whole -- after all, what use is speaking my mind when I'm convinced I'll just go unheard? I believe there is room for improvement and the narrative that the status quo is optimal falls short of painting the full picture. I think a bit more attention needs to be paid to the enthusiasm of old gens players, and an old-gens team tour decoupled from a CG-centric SPL improves the chances that some of the hardest workers on the site are noticed years ahead of schedule and improves the viewing experience. Old gens are not an afterthought to the playerbases any more than gen 7 might be an afterthought to a gen 6 player. It's clear there is a slight disconnect between different parts of the community. If you don't agree it's a problem now, then please consider what things will look like with a gen 10 or 11. It's time to consider the future of the game, because old gens players are becoming increasingly common, generation after generation, year after year. Or idk, just drop non-preview gens because they're unplayable coinflip tiers and 32 Recover PP is busted

:blobshrug:
aint_reading.jpg
 

yone

Herv the One.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
Every year, there is talk of removing RBY/GSC from SPL because they're trash coinflip tiers -- like extreme matchup disparities, Terrastalization, pinch berries, and Z-moves don't win games just as quickly quickly as bad RNG -- and of how Smogon should be CG-focused. It's rare that a new-gens player is successful in old gens, and rare that an old-gens player plays new gens, and it's clear that most old gens remain popular with sizeable communities and continue to grow year after year. Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
We see people complaining about certain players going undrafted in these tours as well. Whether any one of those people has a point is irrelevant. The fact is, people are snubbed in favor of multi-gen flex slots. This becomes a problem when you have 9+ gens and 12+ slots in a tour -- a number that will likely grow in the coming years with a 10th and 11th generation -- and when there is a disconnect between the playerbases and managers. It isn't the fault of the players or managers that this is a multidisciplinary competition. It's just hard to keep up with the goings on in the mons community when there is a general decentralization and compartmentalization of playerbases. This isn't limited to SPL, either. I do not mean this to be an indictment of anyone either. I just see it as a problem that one person can be accepted as a top player in the community, but will not be allowed to play in the most prestigious old-gen team tournament -- because SPL cannot pretend to be a CG tournament when two thirds of the slots and eight of nine tiers are devoted to old gens, including the flavor-of-last-month tier gen 8.
It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example. It doesn't help CG that you put it together with tiers that 'nobody plays' -- or maybe it was 'nobody who's anybody?' -- and it doesn't help old gens when much of their playerbases go unnoticed in favor of players who are picked up to 'do a job', to take care of the dirty work that obviously no one is interested in doing. I do not mean to demean any of the players in this or a previous year's SPL. I don't have a list of players I think aren't deserving of playing in any of them, nor do I have a list of players who I think deserve a slot more than any others. Obviously the tournament should be exclusive, and having flexible picks is one of the easiest ways to look for strength across tiers. I think it should be more exclusive, though, and that there should be fewer flex picks and more mains, because the highest level of competition and the most exciting matchups week-to-week make for a better sport.
The best players often get their chances eventually. There are some players in recent years who have proven themselves to be the best players in one tier or another after getting their chance. There are also players who have proven year upon year that they are talented who have been left on the table. And there are also players who have not proven anything who get the chance to play in SPL and exceed all expectations to prove that they deserve a seat at the table, whether in their first or fifth year on the scene. Politics aside, I'm here because I love the game and the people in it. It's not personal, either, but I know there are a significant number of talented and new players who see SPL as an unattainable dream. "Why should I play RBY when I'll never be good enough to get drafted?" and "This was the year I worked so hard to get in. What was I working so hard for? Haven't I proven myself already?" are things I've heard after being around for a minute. I get that it's supposed to be competitive, but when people play every tour on the calendar to great success with the dream of playing against even tougher competition in a team tour setting, they probably aren't playing just for fun. This is the most important tour on the site for some, and there are things that can be improved for both the viewing and participating experience.
Let's also not forget that this is as much a spectator sport as a player sport. Maybe decoupling old gens from CG hurts old-gens stock. I doubt it. We saw what happened when Smogon dropped RBY and Pokemonperfect took up the mantle. Having two tours does not diminish the spectator experience. People stumble upon old gens on Smogon all the time -- and not through SPL. BKC is on a mission to create a new crop of Smogon's best and brightest, too. A number of people stumbled on their favorite tier through his channel. Amaranth and Cherryb0ng don't have the same reach, but their content is of the highest quality and has been inspirational to some. Most people don't come here to watch CG. It's highly likely that they don't even know what Smogon is until long after watching a YT video or being introduced to the PS! simulator through a friend. Most casual players learn the game through YT or on the ladder, and we have rules of play that are simple and unobtrusive to the casual playing experience. In other words, the casual hobbyist is likely not to know what SPL is or how to navigate the site to find it, and should they stumble upon it, they will not be looking to see the latest DPP techs unless they've already decided to play DPP. There are plenty of bubbles on the site. I emphasize playerbases for that reason. There is no least common denominator when people either love or hate a tier based on what they grew up with or what's fun to them.
I'd like to think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this, as someone who has bounced around a couple of old gens communities and made the effort to bring talented casual ladder players into semi-competitive play on Discord side tournaments. I've seen which communities are thriving and healthy, and which are a bit starved for engagement. Usually the tiers that do the best at drawing new crowds are the ones that see a strong connectivity between the top players and the grassroots. There are seeds to be watered and fruits to be sown, regardless of tier, and I don't think we can continue to pretend that Smogon is a unified community of players who play the same tiers. The Classic is supposed to be the 'old gens tour' -- a bone thrown to enthusiasts of gens 1-5. It's of no consolation to players of gens 6-8. Gen 6 is home to one of the strongest communities on Smogon, as we saw with this year's inaugural ORAS Invitational. I can recall knowing about SPL two or three years before I was even active on the site, but I only learned of the Classic just before joining. There are levels to the game, and SPL is very clearly the highest and most prestigious to the casual observer.
Once again, I have not set out to lambast anyone or make light of the tournament. Overall, I'm quite pleased with this year's tournament, and I'm excited to see the matchups that will be played. I do not contest that the Smogon community tries to do what's best for the game as a whole -- after all, what use is speaking my mind when I'm convinced I'll just go unheard? I believe there is room for improvement and the narrative that the status quo is optimal falls short of painting the full picture. I think a bit more attention needs to be paid to the enthusiasm of old gens players, and an old-gens team tour decoupled from a CG-centric SPL improves the chances that some of the hardest workers on the site are noticed years ahead of schedule and improves the viewing experience. Old gens are not an afterthought to the playerbases any more than gen 7 might be an afterthought to a gen 6 player. It's clear there is a slight disconnect between different parts of the community. If you don't agree it's a problem now, then please consider what things will look like with a gen 10 or 11. It's time to consider the future of the game, because old gens players are becoming increasingly common, generation after generation, year after year. Or idk, just drop non-preview gens because they're unplayable coinflip tiers and 32 Recover PP is busted

:blobshrug:
FWef3VmWIAAYzgZ.jpg_large.jpg
 

Le Don

La Déchéance d'un homme
is a Community Contributor
RoAPL Champion
Every year, there is talk of removing RBY/GSC from SPL because they're trash coinflip tiers -- like extreme matchup disparities, Terrastalization, pinch berries, and Z-moves don't win games just as quickly quickly as bad RNG -- and of how Smogon should be CG-focused. It's rare that a new-gens player is successful in old gens, and rare that an old-gens player plays new gens, and it's clear that most old gens remain popular with sizeable communities and continue to grow year after year. Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
We see people complaining about certain players going undrafted in these tours as well. Whether any one of those people has a point is irrelevant. The fact is, people are snubbed in favor of multi-gen flex slots. This becomes a problem when you have 9+ gens and 12+ slots in a tour -- a number that will likely grow in the coming years with a 10th and 11th generation -- and when there is a disconnect between the playerbases and managers. It isn't the fault of the players or managers that this is a multidisciplinary competition. It's just hard to keep up with the goings on in the mons community when there is a general decentralization and compartmentalization of playerbases. This isn't limited to SPL, either. I do not mean this to be an indictment of anyone either. I just see it as a problem that one person can be accepted as a top player in the community, but will not be allowed to play in the most prestigious old-gen team tournament -- because SPL cannot pretend to be a CG tournament when two thirds of the slots and eight of nine tiers are devoted to old gens, including the flavor-of-last-month tier gen 8.
It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example. It doesn't help CG that you put it together with tiers that 'nobody plays' -- or maybe it was 'nobody who's anybody?' -- and it doesn't help old gens when much of their playerbases go unnoticed in favor of players who are picked up to 'do a job', to take care of the dirty work that obviously no one is interested in doing. I do not mean to demean any of the players in this or a previous year's SPL. I don't have a list of players I think aren't deserving of playing in any of them, nor do I have a list of players who I think deserve a slot more than any others. Obviously the tournament should be exclusive, and having flexible picks is one of the easiest ways to look for strength across tiers. I think it should be more exclusive, though, and that there should be fewer flex picks and more mains, because the highest level of competition and the most exciting matchups week-to-week make for a better sport.
The best players often get their chances eventually. There are some players in recent years who have proven themselves to be the best players in one tier or another after getting their chance. There are also players who have proven year upon year that they are talented who have been left on the table. And there are also players who have not proven anything who get the chance to play in SPL and exceed all expectations to prove that they deserve a seat at the table, whether in their first or fifth year on the scene. Politics aside, I'm here because I love the game and the people in it. It's not personal, either, but I know there are a significant number of talented and new players who see SPL as an unattainable dream. "Why should I play RBY when I'll never be good enough to get drafted?" and "This was the year I worked so hard to get in. What was I working so hard for? Haven't I proven myself already?" are things I've heard after being around for a minute. I get that it's supposed to be competitive, but when people play every tour on the calendar to great success with the dream of playing against even tougher competition in a team tour setting, they probably aren't playing just for fun. This is the most important tour on the site for some, and there are things that can be improved for both the viewing and participating experience.
Let's also not forget that this is as much a spectator sport as a player sport. Maybe decoupling old gens from CG hurts old-gens stock. I doubt it. We saw what happened when Smogon dropped RBY and Pokemonperfect took up the mantle. Having two tours does not diminish the spectator experience. People stumble upon old gens on Smogon all the time -- and not through SPL. BKC is on a mission to create a new crop of Smogon's best and brightest, too. A number of people stumbled on their favorite tier through his channel. Amaranth and Cherryb0ng don't have the same reach, but their content is of the highest quality and has been inspirational to some. Most people don't come here to watch CG. It's highly likely that they don't even know what Smogon is until long after watching a YT video or being introduced to the PS! simulator through a friend. Most casual players learn the game through YT or on the ladder, and we have rules of play that are simple and unobtrusive to the casual playing experience. In other words, the casual hobbyist is likely not to know what SPL is or how to navigate the site to find it, and should they stumble upon it, they will not be looking to see the latest DPP techs unless they've already decided to play DPP. There are plenty of bubbles on the site. I emphasize playerbases for that reason. There is no least common denominator when people either love or hate a tier based on what they grew up with or what's fun to them.
I'd like to think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this, as someone who has bounced around a couple of old gens communities and made the effort to bring talented casual ladder players into semi-competitive play on Discord side tournaments. I've seen which communities are thriving and healthy, and which are a bit starved for engagement. Usually the tiers that do the best at drawing new crowds are the ones that see a strong connectivity between the top players and the grassroots. There are seeds to be watered and fruits to be sown, regardless of tier, and I don't think we can continue to pretend that Smogon is a unified community of players who play the same tiers. The Classic is supposed to be the 'old gens tour' -- a bone thrown to enthusiasts of gens 1-5. It's of no consolation to players of gens 6-8. Gen 6 is home to one of the strongest communities on Smogon, as we saw with this year's inaugural ORAS Invitational. I can recall knowing about SPL two or three years before I was even active on the site, but I only learned of the Classic just before joining. There are levels to the game, and SPL is very clearly the highest and most prestigious to the casual observer.
Once again, I have not set out to lambast anyone or make light of the tournament. Overall, I'm quite pleased with this year's tournament, and I'm excited to see the matchups that will be played. I do not contest that the Smogon community tries to do what's best for the game as a whole -- after all, what use is speaking my mind when I'm convinced I'll just go unheard? I believe there is room for improvement and the narrative that the status quo is optimal falls short of painting the full picture. I think a bit more attention needs to be paid to the enthusiasm of old gens players, and an old-gens team tour decoupled from a CG-centric SPL improves the chances that some of the hardest workers on the site are noticed years ahead of schedule and improves the viewing experience. Old gens are not an afterthought to the playerbases any more than gen 7 might be an afterthought to a gen 6 player. It's clear there is a slight disconnect between different parts of the community. If you don't agree it's a problem now, then please consider what things will look like with a gen 10 or 11. It's time to consider the future of the game, because old gens players are becoming increasingly common, generation after generation, year after year. Or idk, just drop non-preview gens because they're unplayable coinflip tiers and 32 Recover PP is busted

:blobshrug:
1674331206000.png
 
Every year, there is talk of removing RBY/GSC from SPL because they're trash coinflip tiers -- like extreme matchup disparities, Terrastalization, pinch berries, and Z-moves don't win games just as quickly quickly as bad RNG -- and of how Smogon should be CG-focused. It's rare that a new-gens player is successful in old gens, and rare that an old-gens player plays new gens, and it's clear that most old gens remain popular with sizeable communities and continue to grow year after year. Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
We see people complaining about certain players going undrafted in these tours as well. Whether any one of those people has a point is irrelevant. The fact is, people are snubbed in favor of multi-gen flex slots. This becomes a problem when you have 9+ gens and 12+ slots in a tour -- a number that will likely grow in the coming years with a 10th and 11th generation -- and when there is a disconnect between the playerbases and managers. It isn't the fault of the players or managers that this is a multidisciplinary competition. It's just hard to keep up with the goings on in the mons community when there is a general decentralization and compartmentalization of playerbases. This isn't limited to SPL, either. I do not mean this to be an indictment of anyone either. I just see it as a problem that one person can be accepted as a top player in the community, but will not be allowed to play in the most prestigious old-gen team tournament -- because SPL cannot pretend to be a CG tournament when two thirds of the slots and eight of nine tiers are devoted to old gens, including the flavor-of-last-month tier gen 8.
It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example. It doesn't help CG that you put it together with tiers that 'nobody plays' -- or maybe it was 'nobody who's anybody?' -- and it doesn't help old gens when much of their playerbases go unnoticed in favor of players who are picked up to 'do a job', to take care of the dirty work that obviously no one is interested in doing. I do not mean to demean any of the players in this or a previous year's SPL. I don't have a list of players I think aren't deserving of playing in any of them, nor do I have a list of players who I think deserve a slot more than any others. Obviously the tournament should be exclusive, and having flexible picks is one of the easiest ways to look for strength across tiers. I think it should be more exclusive, though, and that there should be fewer flex picks and more mains, because the highest level of competition and the most exciting matchups week-to-week make for a better sport.
The best players often get their chances eventually. There are some players in recent years who have proven themselves to be the best players in one tier or another after getting their chance. There are also players who have proven year upon year that they are talented who have been left on the table. And there are also players who have not proven anything who get the chance to play in SPL and exceed all expectations to prove that they deserve a seat at the table, whether in their first or fifth year on the scene. Politics aside, I'm here because I love the game and the people in it. It's not personal, either, but I know there are a significant number of talented and new players who see SPL as an unattainable dream. "Why should I play RBY when I'll never be good enough to get drafted?" and "This was the year I worked so hard to get in. What was I working so hard for? Haven't I proven myself already?" are things I've heard after being around for a minute. I get that it's supposed to be competitive, but when people play every tour on the calendar to great success with the dream of playing against even tougher competition in a team tour setting, they probably aren't playing just for fun. This is the most important tour on the site for some, and there are things that can be improved for both the viewing and participating experience.
Let's also not forget that this is as much a spectator sport as a player sport. Maybe decoupling old gens from CG hurts old-gens stock. I doubt it. We saw what happened when Smogon dropped RBY and Pokemonperfect took up the mantle. Having two tours does not diminish the spectator experience. People stumble upon old gens on Smogon all the time -- and not through SPL. BKC is on a mission to create a new crop of Smogon's best and brightest, too. A number of people stumbled on their favorite tier through his channel. Amaranth and Cherryb0ng don't have the same reach, but their content is of the highest quality and has been inspirational to some. Most people don't come here to watch CG. It's highly likely that they don't even know what Smogon is until long after watching a YT video or being introduced to the PS! simulator through a friend. Most casual players learn the game through YT or on the ladder, and we have rules of play that are simple and unobtrusive to the casual playing experience. In other words, the casual hobbyist is likely not to know what SPL is or how to navigate the site to find it, and should they stumble upon it, they will not be looking to see the latest DPP techs unless they've already decided to play DPP. There are plenty of bubbles on the site. I emphasize playerbases for that reason. There is no least common denominator when people either love or hate a tier based on what they grew up with or what's fun to them.
I'd like to think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on this, as someone who has bounced around a couple of old gens communities and made the effort to bring talented casual ladder players into semi-competitive play on Discord side tournaments. I've seen which communities are thriving and healthy, and which are a bit starved for engagement. Usually the tiers that do the best at drawing new crowds are the ones that see a strong connectivity between the top players and the grassroots. There are seeds to be watered and fruits to be sown, regardless of tier, and I don't think we can continue to pretend that Smogon is a unified community of players who play the same tiers. The Classic is supposed to be the 'old gens tour' -- a bone thrown to enthusiasts of gens 1-5. It's of no consolation to players of gens 6-8. Gen 6 is home to one of the strongest communities on Smogon, as we saw with this year's inaugural ORAS Invitational. I can recall knowing about SPL two or three years before I was even active on the site, but I only learned of the Classic just before joining. There are levels to the game, and SPL is very clearly the highest and most prestigious to the casual observer.
Once again, I have not set out to lambast anyone or make light of the tournament. Overall, I'm quite pleased with this year's tournament, and I'm excited to see the matchups that will be played. I do not contest that the Smogon community tries to do what's best for the game as a whole -- after all, what use is speaking my mind when I'm convinced I'll just go unheard? I believe there is room for improvement and the narrative that the status quo is optimal falls short of painting the full picture. I think a bit more attention needs to be paid to the enthusiasm of old gens players, and an old-gens team tour decoupled from a CG-centric SPL improves the chances that some of the hardest workers on the site are noticed years ahead of schedule and improves the viewing experience. Old gens are not an afterthought to the playerbases any more than gen 7 might be an afterthought to a gen 6 player. It's clear there is a slight disconnect between different parts of the community. If you don't agree it's a problem now, then please consider what things will look like with a gen 10 or 11. It's time to consider the future of the game, because old gens players are becoming increasingly common, generation after generation, year after year. Or idk, just drop non-preview gens because they're unplayable coinflip tiers and 32 Recover PP is busted

:blobshrug:
Tl Dr?
 
i actually quite liked your post giraffefromholland and i understand where you're coming from. if i may offer some constructive feedback, both in the figurative and literal sense, please consider spacing out your posts a bit more in the future. a giant wall of just text becomes nearly impossible to read and your well intended message doesn't stand a chance from the get-go.

Is it not time to have a CG-only PL and a separate old gens PL?
we do this already. SCL is the team tournament that focuses entirely on the current generation, while SPL is the flagship OU-only official. obviously SPL does include current gen OU, too, but room was made for that in order to ensure none of the older generations were cut. you're right about the old gens consistently producing growing communities and new players continue to break through as well. that's why to me it's great to see people like d4 repertoire, monai, seasons, oiponabys, dark eeveon and more as spl starters for the the first time, finding their place as new old generation talent between the established names. there isn't a problem with getting your chance at the highest level and the focus on past metagames isn't too small to make it happen. a big shoutout to the roa circuit, btw. many of the newly drafted old gen players earned their way in off of that platform.

It isn't better for the game that the best old gens players don't get drafted or play on the big stage until a year or two after they've proven themselves to be one of the best players in a tier to a manager who is more concerned with winning the draft in CG than in unearthing or otherwise just drafting a top player in RBY or GSC for example.
they do actually. i'm sorry to be the one to say it, but while a few perhaps were, most of the names people list as scandalous snubs probably aren't among the 10 (if not 15) best options for the slot, other contributing factors like social synergy not withstanding. not everyone that's been building up their resume gets the chance they were hoping they'd get. this is the smogon premier league, though. i'd argue it's a good thing not everyone does. make it mean something to play in our most prestigious tournament week to week. i feel like we're maybe starting to lose sight of the dynamic in play here. there are countless tournaments ongoing year round across all generations that provide a stage for prospective players to be seen and recognized. there are tons of team tournaments and social hubs like public discord servers to put yourself out there as a social and potentially dedicated teammate. obviously drafting remains a subjective and messy affair that does see great players miss out on the action, sure. that said, if you make yourself undeniable you will get picked.

i don't intend to rehash points i've made earlier, but am i really crazy for feeling like it's going in the right direction if anything? the old gen communities seem to be thriving and we have such a nice blend of returning veterans and new blood across the board this season. i hope all of the players making their debut continue to pop off. it's been great to watch thus far and we're barely a week in.
 
honestly quite Appalling that SCOOTWERS player Sensi axew can receive external moves from a 3rd party player… and walk away Unscathed….

I thought there is a 0 Ghosting Policy on this website…

especially in the SPL…

embarassing.
 
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