Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - June 2010

kokoloko

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What's your logic? Flygon and Salamence played two separate roles. I'm not sure if I see how the banning of Salamence directly helps Flygon's standing, but if you can give me an explanation, I'll buy it.
Not too many people like running two pokemon with a double-ice weakness on the same team, so despite playing different roles, Salamence affected Flygon's usage indirectly.
 
What's your logic? Flygon and Salamence played two separate roles. I'm not sure if I see how the banning of Salamence directly helps Flygon's standing, but if you can give me an explanation, I'll buy it.
It can help Flygons standings by fitting the place for Salamence where a team still has an extra slot, for example where they usually put MixMence they put MixGon since both of them have high speed and Flygon has a decent Special attack and Attack overall so he could be decently to replace Mixmence would be maybe it's not a Salamence clone but it's close meaning people could think about putting Flygon on a where they usually put Salamence, that was my logic. If I confused you on my previous post I meant the Mix sets only.
 
It can help Flygons standings by fitting the place for Salamence where a team still has an extra slot, for example where they usually put MixMence they put MixGon since both of them have high speed and Flygon has a decent Special attack and Attack overall so he could be decently to replace Mixmence would be maybe it's not a Salamence clone but it's close meaning people could think about putting Flygon on a where they usually put Salamence, that was my logic. If I confused you on my previous post I meant the Mix sets only.
If anything, I'd think replacing MixMence with Mixed Flygon would be a terrible idea. If I recall correctly, Flygon only has base 100 attack and base 80 special attack, compared to Mence's 135/110. That's a huge drop in power, and I don't think they achieve the same job.
 
Thanks for the stats!!!!

Here's to the 2nd to last month of Mence. We'll miss you, 'ole buddy.

And haha, Flygon can't go mixed very well. His base 80 special attack is piss-poor, especially without a boosting nature. Plus he can be stalled out by Blissey.
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
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MixNite might be viable, though. 100 SpA if I recall, so not as big a drop as 30 points or anything...
MixNite has already been proven to be viable. MixGon is good too, as long as you don't attempt to break walls with it, use it as a lure though, and it will work brilliantly.
 
Wait, Breloom? Do explain...
The logic would go that Breloom can instantly incapacitate a "counter" with Spore, thus making it uncounterable, and therefore Uber worthy. Luckily, this argument hasn't been prevalent yet, and good thing too. Breloom is too stoppable in order to call it Uber in my opinion.
 
If anything, I'd think replacing MixMence with Mixed Flygon would be a terrible idea. If I recall correctly, Flygon only has base 100 attack and base 80 special attack, compared to Mence's 135/110. That's a huge drop in power, and I don't think they achieve the same job.
What's better to replace Salamence in the OU metagame? what I said was quite viable about MixGon it works well but as I said in my quote I never said it was a Salamence Clone as said:

Both of them have high speed and Flygon has a decent Special attack and Attack overall so he could be decently to replace Mixmence would be maybe it's not a Salamence clone
If you think Flygon is a "Terrible idea" then name something better, by the way the reason I didn't mention MixNite was because of it's speed and it won't accomplish much with that of 284 top speed. Flygon from what most people see is a great MixMence replacement currently in the OU Metagame.
 
MixGon is really lacking in the power department. If you're trying to fill MixMence's shoes, well, that's not the way to do it. The fact that Flygon is perhaps the best Mence replacement (note: I do not believe this to be the case) does not make it a good Mence replacement.
 

SJCrew

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You can't replace Salamence with anything. Nothing in OU even comes close to checking/setting up on half the things Mence did, not even Dragonite. Focus on new offensive/defensive strategies that'll work now that Mence got the boot, or find a new all-purpose wallbreaker.

Heracross, for example, is free to do as it pleases now that it's #1 check is gone. Between SD, CB, Guts, and its incredible bulk, there really isn't much stall teams can do to stop it. All it takes is a strong blow or two to bring offensive/balanced teams to their knees, and it can basically come in on most walls for free and break them outright.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
And haha, Flygon can't go mixed very well. His base 80 special attack is piss-poor, especially without a boosting nature. Plus he can be stalled out by Blissey.
Garchomp has the same 80 base SpA but the so called "chain-Chomp" became quite common when it was OU. With a mixed set Flygon can deal with some of its common counters like Skarmory, Hippowdon and so on, though having only an average 100 base Atk and no access to swords dance means that it won't get past Blissey easily.
 
You can't replace Salamence with anything. Nothing in OU even comes close to checking/setting up on half the things Mence did, not even Dragonite. Focus on new offensive/defensive strategies that'll work now that Mence got the boot, or find a new all-purpose wallbreaker.
Agreed. It's my understanding that Salamence was banned because it centralized the metagame, meaning every team had to have checks for it. Now, a new metagame is developing, one which could do without underpowered Salamence clones. IMO the era of the powerful dragons in OU is coming to an end, at least for this generation.
 
Heracross, for example, is free to do as it pleases now that it's #1 check is gone. Between SD, CB, Guts, and its incredible bulk, there really isn't much stall teams can do to stop it. All it takes is a strong blow or two to bring offensive/balanced teams to their knees, and it can basically come in on most walls for free and break them outright.
It's not as free to do what it wants as you say, but it certainly is more effective without a semi-bulky flying dragon with Intimidate wearing it down. The Band/Scarf sets are still walled fairly easily by Rotom-A/Skarmory, although the SD set is interesting in this regard (mind you I have not tested the SD set firsthand in this metagame). I think calling Salamence Heracross's number one check is not true though.
 

shrang

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It's not as free to do what it wants as you say, but it certainly is more effective without a semi-bulky flying dragon with Intimidate wearing it down.
Don't forget there's another semi-bulky flying dragon with Intimidate in the name of Gyarados that still keeps Heracross down a fair bit. Rotom nowhere near walls Heracross unless it comes in on Close Combat, and Banded CC 2HKOs Skarm as well.
 
Don't forget there's another semi-bulky flying dragon with Intimidate in the name of Gyarados that still keeps Heracross down a fair bit. Rotom nowhere near walls Heracross unless it comes in on Close Combat, and Banded CC 2HKOs Skarm as well.
I somewhat intentionally neglected Gyarados because it's infinitely easier to wall than Salamence was (Pory2, HP Electric Suicune/Vaporeon, Rotom), forcing it out and making it eat 25 percent from SR on every switch in, which is a small victory.

Defensive Rotom does do a good job taking a Scarf Megahorn (25.3% - 29.9%), but CB Hera Megahorn does 37.8% - 44.7%, so that is somewha. Banded CC does 2HKO Skarmory, but you'd need solid prediction that way you don't end up ineffectually Close Combatting Gengar/Rotom. The trick is predicting what move Heracross will use, which is much easier than predicting Salamence because of Heracross's limited coverage. You could end up CC'ing Rotom and Megahorn'ing Skarmory, both of which are ineffective even from the CB set. However, I won't go too far down the prediction path, as that made the Salamence discussion rather shitty.

I think we can all agree though, that Heracross definitely gets a boost from Salamence's banning, but SJCrew's comment on it being free to do whatever it pleases is an overstatement.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
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Don't forget there's another semi-bulky flying dragon with Intimidate in the name of Gyarados that still keeps Heracross down a fair bit. Rotom nowhere near walls Heracross unless it comes in on Close Combat, and Banded CC 2HKOs Skarm as well.
Gyarados doesn't do anything to Heracross...if it comes in on SD or Stone Edge, it's boned, and it doesn't have any power before DD, so I can just watch it DD and hit it again before I finally switch out to a bulky Water and laugh at it. Gyarados in general is actually pretty horrid these days.
 
Uber Leads
| 59 | Qwilfish |
| 60 | Hippopotas |
| 62 | Magikarp |
--_--
i know, i know....
looks like whoever is battling with magikarp back at May 2010 is still keeping it up =.=

poor heracross... it deserves WAY more attention. uxie is so going to be a OU someday unless gen 5 unleashes like the ultimate uxie/mesprit/azelf check D:
 
If anything, I like the Flygon can viably run Adamant on its Scarf set. Sure it can't outrun +Speed Kingdra after a Dance, but it isn't all that threatening and can be decently handled by a bulky water.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
As long as Jirachi's still running Scarf, you're going to want Jolly. Don't forget the oddball Shaymin or Celebi, and other Flygon, who absolutely will be running max speed.
 
As long as Jirachi's still running Scarf, you're going to want Jolly. Don't forget the oddball Shaymin or Celebi, and other Flygon, who absolutely will be running max speed.
They might be, but do they really need to? The only DDers left are Kingdra, Dragonite, gyarados, and Tyranitar, all of which can be outsped save +speed Kingdra. Jirachi, Celebi, and Flygon could all use the added power, IMO.
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Nah, max speed is no longer necessary. I'm currently running Adamant Flygon with just enough speed to outspeed +1 Jolly Gyarados (and by extension Jolly Dragonite and Adamant Kingdra) with the rest of the EVs (48, I believe) go into HP to help survive a +2 Extremespeed from Jolly Lucario. I especially love being slower than other Flygon because getting that U-turn in after theirs is awesome. If they Outrage then I set up SD Lucario so I win either way.
 

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