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Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - October 2009
- Thread starter DougJustDoug
- Start date
SUSPECT:
Surprised to see Skarm not take a higher place considering he is the best pokemon in suspect IMO after Garchomp. Just look at how high tyranitar, scizor garchomp and metagross are, he is beast in suspect. Now lets couple Latias (3rd best poke IMO) with Skarmory as a defensive core of a balanced - stall suspect team. You now have the whole of the top 10 covered. (Besides Latias). On top of this, taunt skarm allows for an effective method of beating stall especially when combined with TTar who also deal with Latias and Rotom. This just goes to show how centralised the metagame is even from a defensive perspective. The only Pokes which are basically guarenteed to stop this combination is DD gyra and SD Lucario, hello scarfed Rotom-H.
Surprised to see Skarm not take a higher place considering he is the best pokemon in suspect IMO after Garchomp. Just look at how high tyranitar, scizor garchomp and metagross are, he is beast in suspect. Now lets couple Latias (3rd best poke IMO) with Skarmory as a defensive core of a balanced - stall suspect team. You now have the whole of the top 10 covered. (Besides Latias). On top of this, taunt skarm allows for an effective method of beating stall especially when combined with TTar who also deal with Latias and Rotom. This just goes to show how centralised the metagame is even from a defensive perspective. The only Pokes which are basically guarenteed to stop this combination is DD gyra and SD Lucario, hello scarfed Rotom-H.
Well gee, what exactly can Blissey do to powerful threats? Then again, maybe that's why it's only recently dropped out of top ten usage for the first time... ever.
This is true. What can Hippo do to threats? What can Rotom-A do to threats? What can a stallish Garchomp do to threats? (it is a better wall that Hippo!) They can all use high-powered moves to take care of threats and have a good stat to fire it off from. Blissey used Secemic Toss. Ow.
Okay, also, please someone tell me why you would use Cresselia over Latias. Latias like completely took over Cresselia's job when it came down. Better typing, better speed, better special attack which are important on a defensive pokemon in today's metagame. Cresselia maybe does better against salamence and Gyra with ice fang. That's about it. Its not coming in on salamence easy and can't revenge kll it like latias can. Latias basically outclasses cress in everyway possible, it's like celebi and shaymin or Infernape and Blaziken.
im just looking at the difference in magnezone usage:
suspect:
| Magnezone | Usage | 4641 | 17.4 |
| Magnezone | Ability | Magnet Pull | 100.0 |
| Magnezone | Item | Leftovers | 59.0 |
| Magnezone | Item | Choice Scarf | 28.6 |
| Magnezone | Item | Salac Berry | 10.3 |
| Magnezone | Move | Thunderbolt | 98.6 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Ice | 66.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Substitute | 66.3 |
| Magnezone | Move | Explosion | 48.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Magnet Rise | 28.1 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Fire | 22.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Charge Beam | 13.8 |
we can see that leftovers is by far the most common set, with sub-salac versions actually viable, because they can outrun non-CSgarchomp?
as opposed to standard:
| Magnezone | Usage | 63558 | 8.0 |
| Magnezone | Ability | Magnet Pull | 99.7 |
| Magnezone | Ability | Sturdy | 0.3 |
| Magnezone | Item | Choice Scarf | 44.7 |
| Magnezone | Item | Leftovers | 41.4 |
| Magnezone | Move | Thunderbolt | 95.0 |
| Magnezone | Move | Flash Cannon | 52.8 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Fire | 49.9 |
| Magnezone | Move | Explosion | 45.6 |
| Magnezone | Move | Substitute | 38.1 |
| Magnezone | Move | Magnet Rise | 27.6 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Ice | 24.8 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Grass | 13.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Thunder Wave | 8.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Charge Beam | 5.5 |
where we see CS dominates in a metagame with lots of lucario: HP ice is not nearly used as much, and HP grass is actually on that list. magnezone usage is half as in suspect, and significantly more HP fire, with flash cannon being the second most used attack.
suspect:
| Magnezone | Usage | 4641 | 17.4 |
| Magnezone | Ability | Magnet Pull | 100.0 |
| Magnezone | Item | Leftovers | 59.0 |
| Magnezone | Item | Choice Scarf | 28.6 |
| Magnezone | Item | Salac Berry | 10.3 |
| Magnezone | Move | Thunderbolt | 98.6 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Ice | 66.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Substitute | 66.3 |
| Magnezone | Move | Explosion | 48.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Magnet Rise | 28.1 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Fire | 22.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Charge Beam | 13.8 |
we can see that leftovers is by far the most common set, with sub-salac versions actually viable, because they can outrun non-CSgarchomp?
as opposed to standard:
| Magnezone | Usage | 63558 | 8.0 |
| Magnezone | Ability | Magnet Pull | 99.7 |
| Magnezone | Ability | Sturdy | 0.3 |
| Magnezone | Item | Choice Scarf | 44.7 |
| Magnezone | Item | Leftovers | 41.4 |
| Magnezone | Move | Thunderbolt | 95.0 |
| Magnezone | Move | Flash Cannon | 52.8 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Fire | 49.9 |
| Magnezone | Move | Explosion | 45.6 |
| Magnezone | Move | Substitute | 38.1 |
| Magnezone | Move | Magnet Rise | 27.6 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Ice | 24.8 |
| Magnezone | Move | HP-Grass | 13.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Thunder Wave | 8.5 |
| Magnezone | Move | Charge Beam | 5.5 |
where we see CS dominates in a metagame with lots of lucario: HP ice is not nearly used as much, and HP grass is actually on that list. magnezone usage is half as in suspect, and significantly more HP fire, with flash cannon being the second most used attack.
i guess all of this show how supect is different from the standard ladder,i still think its funny CS magnezone t-bolt wont ohko a full hp lucario with no defense drop,given the base 130 special atack...i need to check some stuff about lucario,how much persons use jolly instead of adamant...(i have being seying some mixcarious on the ladder,i am beggining to get scared....)
Cresselia is much bulkier than latias
Its best to say that latias is a more offensive cresslia with relialble recovery in recover/roost.Cressy is a more defensive latias thanks to her better defenses and HP.The current problem that cresslia suffers is the rising usage of Scizor combined of the fact that it doesnt have a reliable recovery move.And really unless people starts to use that fancy flame psycho shift set.I dont think that its usage would rise anytime soon.
Anyway looking back at the statistics...
Anyway looking back at the statistics...
What happened to the usage of Jirachis deadliest set?
I guess the rise of Physical Scarf variants forced Sub/CM Raichi out of the spotlight. Also, the commodity of Specially-attacking Trick users makes it easier to cripple Blissey, lessening the need for a sweeper that can beat Blissey one-on-oine. Finally, most carry Seismic Toss nowadays because of Heatran, meaning that Jirachi fails to defeat them anyways. Basically, a combination of factors led to its demise.
EDIT: only 250 posts to go...
EDIT: only 250 posts to go...
Doesn't change the fact that Cresselia doesn't "do" anything. Its offenses are impotent at best, with 75 Special Attack backing up its middling movepool. Also, it's important not to underestimate the effect of speed on a defensive Pokemon. Latias is stall's one-stop answer to one of the former deadliest threats to any stall team, Nasty Plot Mixape, whereas Cresselia goes "oh shit" and then eats it from a +2 Fire Blast. Finally, Cresselia has to rely on shit recovery in the form of Moonlight or Rest to boost its HP after it takes a hit, whereas Latias gets Recover/Roost AND Wish to support itself and its team.
Cress has 40 base HP and 30 base Defense over Latias, but it also has a much shittier typing (mono psychic sucks ass, no doubt about that), no reliable recovery, poses zero threat to a number of very real offensive threats, and counters a far smaller group of Pokemon than Latias does.
After reading here a bit i m scared about people who don`t understand Cresselias role in a team. I have to say im a cress fan, i use her whenever i think nothing else can fulfil a function better than her.
Cress is, unlike Latias a pure teamplayer. From my point of view only the DS screener set makes sence now. 120/120/130 are amazing defences with decent 75 Spe makes her a very sturdy wall. Before Platinum i used a CM/Rest/IB/Hp fighting Cress with good results, but with all the Scizors arround CM sets became more and more ineffective. Because you will be weak to T-tar or Scizor, two big threads. And there are without a doubt better offensive CM users than Cress, f.e Jirachi, Latias or Suicune.
And who says Cress has to eat a +2 Fire Blast, give her a scarf and OHKO Infernape with STAB psychic. Ok, Infernape was just an example, but Latias needs a scarf to revenge kill +1 Spe Dos or Mence.
Be careful with saying Cress does "nothing at all". Setting up screens and spam satus can cripple your team and makes it weak to certain threads for which it would be prepaired otherwise.
I wonder how people can say she belongs to UU, it is like with Raikou, another great pokemon in the wrong tier...
Cress is, unlike Latias a pure teamplayer. From my point of view only the DS screener set makes sence now. 120/120/130 are amazing defences with decent 75 Spe makes her a very sturdy wall. Before Platinum i used a CM/Rest/IB/Hp fighting Cress with good results, but with all the Scizors arround CM sets became more and more ineffective. Because you will be weak to T-tar or Scizor, two big threads. And there are without a doubt better offensive CM users than Cress, f.e Jirachi, Latias or Suicune.
And who says Cress has to eat a +2 Fire Blast, give her a scarf and OHKO Infernape with STAB psychic. Ok, Infernape was just an example, but Latias needs a scarf to revenge kill +1 Spe Dos or Mence.
Be careful with saying Cress does "nothing at all". Setting up screens and spam satus can cripple your team and makes it weak to certain threads for which it would be prepaired otherwise.
I wonder how people can say she belongs to UU, it is like with Raikou, another great pokemon in the wrong tier...
Latias can Dual Screen too and does it better because its recovery move doesn't get stuffed by Sand Stream. It can Thunder Wave, Psycho Shift and do all that other gimmicky crap Cresselia is forced to use in failed attempts to differentiate itself. There's virtually no redeeming factor about Cresselia compared to its Suspect counterpart. "Not weak to Ice" and "learns Gravity and Trick Room" is about all I got. Oh, and Lunar Dance is slightly better than Healing Wish. :justin2: It's a very niche pokémon at this point.
using cresselia is like using blissey,spam status and support the team,not atack,sure get 2 or 3 calm minds and hp fighting is going to make tyranitar run away like a little girl,but cresselia is made purely to support a team rather then latias,who was made to support and atack(and having to split jobs on 1 certain pokemon sucks) i mean,cresselia can dual screen,t-wave and then lunar dance to help a sweeper,latias could do the same? maybe,but not has effective since after puting the screens latias only advantage is the speed,what thunder wave negate,lunar dance can help so much pokemons,and screens can let something like a salamence to get 2 or even 3 dragon dances,cresselia use thunder wave! the enemy is paralyzed(bye bye latias speed advantaged) cresselia used light screen and reflect!(nothing can deal any kind of significant damage now) cresselia use lunar dance! *insert name here* send out salamence!(full hp,screens mence on field against a paralyzed pokemon that cant do a shit to him) and we follow this route,taunt fuck any support pokemon,so dont come saying TAUNT STOP THIS SET!!! if latias where to also use a set like this she would also get fuck up by taunt,shit recover in form of moonlight? maybe,but she can do some stuff better then latias
I have to say, Cresselia is extremelly underrated from the point of view from many of you. Neither of its two biggest threats in today's meta (Tyranitar, Scizor) can 0HKO it, and Cresselia can use HP [Fire] to 2HKO Scizor or HP [Fighting] to deal respectable damage to Tyranitar. With its classic 252 HP/80 SpDef/176 Def spread, it can take a +2 Infernape's Fire Blast and 0HKO back with Psychic, or just paralyze it. Taunt Gyarados? Charge Beam it. CM? Stall out Gengar. Use Psycho Shift or Lunar Dance as other gimmicky options, whatever. Set up a Reflect and you're practically unkillable, and annoy shit even more with Thunder wave so that Latias's speed advantage means nothing. Latias would KILL for an addition 40 HP/30 Def. The point is, only Tyranitar, SD Scizor, CB/SD Weavile and CB/SD Heracross can defeat Cresselia if they're both prepared for each other, and with HP [Fire], HP [Fighting] or Psychic, it can deal with all 4 to extent (Once again Tyranitar needs special care). You can argue that Cresselia can only do so many things at one time, which is extremelly true. However, it is certainly not set-up fodder and not outclassed by Latias. Latias does boast three advantages in speed, reliable recovery,and typing, but Cresselia has those additional 40 HP/30 SpDef, making for a superior Calm Minder imho (yes I will raise a lot of debate there) and something to take both physical AND special hits.
Cresselia does not make a more reliable Calm Minder. Because the point of a CMer is generally to boost and eventually sweep, Latias much higher SpA makes it superior - not to mention its Speed and Dragon STAB.
I'll agree that Cresselia is underrated, but Latias has alot more going for it than Cresselia in today's metagame. So what if Cresselia can take a +2 Fire Blast from Infernape? Latias doesn't even have to take the hit because it outspeeds.
Cress fails to do anything significant with its mediocre offenses and typing, and will oftentimes find its Moonlight healing only 25%. Arguing that Cress can use Hidden Powers to deal with specific threats is equally as applicable to other pokemon as well. Cresselia's few advantages lie in its increased HP and Defense.
I'll agree that Cresselia is underrated, but Latias has alot more going for it than Cresselia in today's metagame. So what if Cresselia can take a +2 Fire Blast from Infernape? Latias doesn't even have to take the hit because it outspeeds.
Cress fails to do anything significant with its mediocre offenses and typing, and will oftentimes find its Moonlight healing only 25%. Arguing that Cress can use Hidden Powers to deal with specific threats is equally as applicable to other pokemon as well. Cresselia's few advantages lie in its increased HP and Defense.
Exactly, you'd need hp fighting, hp fire, charge beam and psychic all on one set to deal with Cresselia's counters. Then you're left without a stat up move and a recovery move. Also, if you don't run a decent amount of SpA EVs, then even after some CM boosts you'll have troubles attempting to sweep. Nontheless, Cress' Spe is just average.
Latias has lower defences, but with dragon pulse and surf can hit almost every Pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage, has a reliable recovery move (something that Cresselia would kill for) and 110 base SpA\Spe to work with.
I agree that Cresselia is underrated, but don't try to compare it to Latias as they're completely different Pokemon.
Latias has lower defences, but with dragon pulse and surf can hit almost every Pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage, has a reliable recovery move (something that Cresselia would kill for) and 110 base SpA\Spe to work with.
I agree that Cresselia is underrated, but don't try to compare it to Latias as they're completely different Pokemon.
Or you could just use Flame Orb and Psycho Shift, along with a Gliscor (or Rotom-A) for the seldom seen Heracross. You lose the surprise value provided by a Hidden Power (which would only 2HKO anyway) but instead permantently cripple said Pokemon. Or better yet, they won't even counter Cresselia anymore. With Heracross rarely being used and everybody turning to No Guard Machamp, only common counter that remains is Heatran. Sweet deal.
Latias has enormous advantages over Cresselia, and as Haunter pointed out, cannot really be compared, unless you want to say how Latias can use Grass Knot to 2HKO Tyranitar, and HP Fire to OHKO Scizor while Cresselia cannot. Its Speed, along with reliable STAB and numerous resistances makes it a check to a huge portion of the Special Attacking metagame. Latias only commonly dreads Special Attackers such as Gengar, Yanmega, Salamence, and enemy Latias. She resists most other Special Attackers STAB (except like Porygon-Z). Her Speed is also a giant aspect of Latias' greatness, providing a check to multiple Pokemon such as MixMence and Infernape.
Flame orb is certainly an option, but then you lose 12.5% of your HP each turn, lose leftovers recovery and become set up fodder for everything with substitute or taunt (assuming that they don't switch into psycho shift). Losing something like 25% of Cresselia's health at each and every switch in really limits its walling abilities, and also you're basically forced to run rest as moonlight is really a mediocre option with SS being so common.
exactly! latias has better to do then cresselia jobs,instead of doing the same cresselia does,she does what she is suppose to,revenge kill with scarf,sweep with calm mind blablabla,cresselia does what she is suppose to,and latias does what she is suppose to,let each one do they job...
I think you misunderstood what MrE is trying to say... Cresselia is forced to use Flame Orb and Psycho Shift because she's pretty useless otherwise, while Latias could use the same tactic she doesn't need to do that because she actually has other (better) options.