Raikou can tank hits from tornadus-t unlike jolteon so outspeeding it doesn't really matter. If ferrothorn lacks power whip it loses to raikou. We're talking about volt absorb raikou meaning using Twave on it is a no no. Raikou's bulk is worth it in the end it can take a powerful priority moves from dragonite and breloom and isn't 2HKO'd by thunderus-t's hp ice. Now that all of that is covered, Jolteon's only niche is outspeeding +1 gyarados or dragonite, which really isn't that big of a deal to warrant its stay in ou. Ditto can actually take advantage of those boosts.
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Smogon University PO Statistics — June 2012
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My bad about Thunder Wave, it's been a long day. The problem with your what you're saying is that most Ferrothorn DO carry Power Whip, so it's a moot point. I also have no idea what Ditto has to do with anything. I mean, I could make points on how Ditto is better than Raikou too if I wanted to, but he has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Surviving Extremespeed and Mach Punch is nice, but I'd argue that it's not any better than the ability to revenge Gyarados and D-Nite without resorting to a Scarf set. I'd rather have a pokemon that's frailer, but faster and hits hard right off the bat than one that can take one hit, but is slower and weaker without boosts.
Calm Mind Raikou just isn't that great anymore, even with Volt Absorb. Raikou is bulkier than Jolteon, but that's not really saying much. It's still forced out or revenged by Scarf Pokemon, meaning you wasted a turns setting up boosts or would've been better off smacking something with a Specs Thunder, which Jolteon does better.
CM raikou carries a sub you know. -.- Have you ever tried sub CM raikou? It's pretty damn good in dw. Anyway, you just seem to be arguing out of preference instead of fact, so be it. Use jolteon if you want but it really doesn't have a niche, I firmly stand by that with all the evidence of much more viable electric types. Bulk is everything in priority infested metagame, fast frail sweepers just don't cut it anymore. Ditto was only brought up as a better revenge killer, since that's the reason you continually harp on jolteon. Btw jolteon doesn't out speed +1 max speed dragonite or gyarados it can only do that if they're adamant meaning its speed advantage means almost nothing. It can't even OHKO dragonite if it has multiscale intact. If dragonite is adamant and has a life orb, at +1 it will OHKO jolteon with extreme speed. So yeah, it's a pretty crappy check.
I think we're forgetting one very important thing with Raikou. It can't use Aura Sphere with Volt Absorb (legality issues) so it's still helplessly getting walled off by Ferrothorn. Not to mention Aura Sphere is terrible coverage option on a SubCM set since you then just get killed by the likes of Gliscor and Landorus. Still, even with that, Raikou is definitely going to give Jolteon lots of competition and will usually get the nod over Jolteon for those who want a little more bulk over Speed.
2sly4u, Raikou actually has 5 more Special Attack points than Jolteon does, so it would hit slightly harder off the bat with a Specs set.
2sly4u, Raikou actually has 5 more Special Attack points than Jolteon does, so it would hit slightly harder off the bat with a Specs set.
If Raikou is carrying Sub, then it loses out on coverage, and not every Raikou wants to make that sacrifice. Even if it does, here's a turn order for you:
Superbadd sent out Raikou!
1)Ash calls back Tentacruel! Ash sends out [something that breaks Raikou's sub]!
Raikou uses Substitute!
2)Raikou uses Calm Mind!
[pokemon X] uses [move that breaks Raikou's sub (AKA everything)]! Raikou's Substitute faded!
So now you're in the same position you would've been without using Substitute at all, but with 25% less health. You could attack during turn 2, but a non-boosted move won't be more powerful than a Specs Thunder from Jolteon. It's nearly impossible for Raikou to kill something with its Sub intact despite its apparently Godly bulk, so he's still prone to Revenge killing. Substitute doesn't change that at all.
I've used Raikou before, and it was fine, but Jolteon is better. Don't make accusations of me "arguing based on preference" when I could easily say the same of you. And fast frail sweepers aren't dominating? Tell that to Tornadus-T, Salamence and Starmie. Tanking a priority move isn't the be-all-end-all of an offensive pokemon.
As for Ditto, you could argue he's a better revenge killer, fine (it doesn't really compete with Jolteon for a team slot, but we'll ignore that glaring detail for a second). But then I can say that Keldeo is a better user of CM, so Raikou sucks. See how that works? The reason I'm bringing up Jolteon's ability to revenge kill is because he can do that AS AN ADDED BONUS. Revenge killing isn't his job; he's a Specs user, he punches holes in the enemy team. However, he's also fast enough to clean late-game and, yes, revenge kill.
Yeah I know, but he's talking about the CM set, not Specs.
Who the hell sets up on something that can break your sub? You attack to wear it down later through out the match, THEN come back and set up when that counter is dead. You're clearly underestimating its bulk if you think everything can break it. 90/75/100 is perfect for a set up sweeper. It can set up on, espeon, gengar, some celebi, some jirachi jellicent, forretress, ninetails, politoed, jolteon, tentacruel, thunderus, magnezone, vaporeon and tornadus. Don't tell me everything breaks its sub when clearly every team has at least one of these pokemon. Salamence isn't frail lol, 95/80/80 is average bulk, combine that with intimidate it's actually pretty resilient. Neither is tornadus or starmie. Both can take a hit and recover off the damage. Tornadus has regenerator starmie has recover. Ditto is THE revenge killer of the generation hence forth it's compared to jolteon and every other revenge killer out there. I'm not arguing out of preference I'm using fact, if you can give a reason as to why jolteon is better other than its insignificant speed tier(which I mentioned doesn't outspeed jolly +1 dnight) than I'll listen.
That's why Ditto is tearing up the usage charts, right? Oh wait, never mind! If tiers were updated today, Ditto would still be NU. I don't know how to drive this home to you, but Jolteon's main job isn't to revenge kill. It's a bonus. That's another thing Jolteon has going for it over Raikou: versatility. And wow, Raikou can set up on things that Electric resists? Dang, we're talking about the next Blissey over here... Jolteon can tank hits from some of those pokemon too. Some of them Raikou blatantly can't set up on; most Espeon carries Psyshock, Jirachi can Calm Mind alongside it and hit it with Water Pulse (and Confusion), and Ninetales can bust through with a Sun boosted Fire move and removes Raikou's weather, to name a few that stood out to me. Just because Raikou beats Jolteon one-on-one doesn't make him better. Golurk beats Terrakion, but I don't think anyone would argue Golurk is a better pokemon.
If anyone is underestimating Bulk, you're underestimating Jolteon's. 60/60/95 isn't impressing anything physically, but it has enough Special bulk to take a hit if it has to. He's not exactly Shedinja. Also, Starmie is super frail and most don't carry Recover, and Salamence-who usually carries Moxie in my experience-and Tornadus are vulnerable to priority moves (Ice Shard), which according to you is a death sentence.
Usage certainly does determine how good a pokemon is. *rolls eyes* Remember how things like blaziken and manaphy weren't even top ten when they were banned? I simply proved your stupid assertion wrong on how everything breaks its sub and now your talking to me as if you already knew, albeit with a defensive sarcastic tone? lol. Never did I say just because raikou can set up on jolteon is superior and I didn't claim that priority is a death sentence it's just better to survive priority than to die in one shot not doing shit; quit putting words in my mouth. Remember how in my post I said it can set up on some jirachi?
Jolteon has shitty bulk it's 2HKO by LO tornadus hurricane something it RESISTS. Jolteon can't take a resisted hit more than 2 times and you're somehow claiming it has acceptable bulk, that's just pure bs. Calm down btw this is pokemon, not politics. xD I also asked if it had anything over raikou other than insignificant speed and a few gimmicks like baton pass and wish. List it or I won't argue with someone who's hot headed.
Jolteon has shitty bulk it's 2HKO by LO tornadus hurricane something it RESISTS. Jolteon can't take a resisted hit more than 2 times and you're somehow claiming it has acceptable bulk, that's just pure bs. Calm down btw this is pokemon, not politics. xD I also asked if it had anything over raikou other than insignificant speed and a few gimmicks like baton pass and wish. List it or I won't argue with someone who's hot headed.
You attacked me first. I'm not upset at all. Also, don't call me stupid then give put a smily face in your post. Kind of hypocritical...
I never said Ditto wasn't good. You just said that he's "THE revenge killer", and he's not, and usage stats support that. There's a difference between not being top 10 and being straight up NU.
And I hope you didn't actually think I meant LITERALLY everything breaks Raikou's substitutes. Even if you did, setting up on Jellicent isn't exactly a huge accomplishment.
I never said Jolteon had even average bulk, just that it was acceptable for his role. Jolteon isn't going to be eating many hits, so he doesn't need to be bulky.
In a nutshell, Jolteon has versatility over Raikou. He can revenge kill, sweep, and maim bulky pokemon all in one set without needing a turn of setup. Raikou can't. That's why he's better, and it's all because of his apparently "insignificant" Speed.
I said your assertion was stupid, I didn't say you were. Even if I did how is posting a smiley face hypocritical? wtf. I did not attack you, I was arguing with you. Ditto is in fact the best revenge killer in the game, of course that's another argument I won't get into. Raikou can do all of those things as well... That's actually what it's built for to sweep and its sub isn't broken from a wall's attack unlike jolteon. On site analyses lists 3 sets for jolteon (in ou) and 4 for raikou. So no, it doesn't have versatility over it. This argument is going in circles. It doesn't have anything over raikou other than speed and a few gimmicks, quit claiming it does.
Jolteon's Speed is significant - outgunning ScarfTar, ScarfToed, Starmie, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, DUGTRIO, +1 Dragonite, +1 Gyarados. Even if Volt Absorb is released for Raikou, Jolteon's speed would be a major boon. Since Raikou doesn't even have Volt Absorb, Jolteon has plenty of qualities to distinguish it from Raikou.
Anyways, I think you both have provided your points, so let's stop the flame war.
Anyways, I think you both have provided your points, so let's stop the flame war.
Read what I wrote:
Jolteon doesn't need multiple sets because it can do everything it needs to do all at once. And now we're judging versatility based on how many sets are on site?
Sorry. Ninja'd
I'm perfectly fine with a Pokemon dropping a tier, just there are SPECIFIC ones I'm not too thrilled about, and Virizion is just in that category. I'm perfectly fine with the previous two tier shifts, I felt whoever moved into whatever tier would fit in nicely. I'm fine with Nidoqueen and Escavalier in RU; they actually bring something unique to the table there and RU is actually more fun. It's just there are certain ones I'm not looking forward too seeing drop.
A quick question, if a Pokemon drops a tier (eg OU -> UU), but it can deal with a threat in the banned list above the tier it was dropped to (BL), isn't that Pokemon no longer 'broken' for that tier? Or will it become a case of 'overcentalizing the metagame'? Let's say Mienshao checks Staraptor (it probably does, but if it doesn't, don't give me flak because I'm a noob lol), will Staraptor also drop to UU? (it doesn't have to be Staraptor in peticular)
Tl;Dr, can a Pokemon in a ban list drop down to the tier the ban list was made for, if one of it's counters drops down to that tier? (if that makes any sense)
Tl;Dr, can a Pokemon in a ban list drop down to the tier the ban list was made for, if one of it's counters drops down to that tier? (if that makes any sense)
Staraptor would probably be playtested first to see if Meinshao's drop made enough of an impact. If it did, then he might drop down. Next time use the SQSA though for something like that.
Oh okay, and sorry about posting it here; This topic was about tier changes, so it seemed appropiate.
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