So is starmie considered even useful anymore?

[GeNeSiS`]

Starmie is still the best spinner imo.Not only that its a great sleep absorber, And status absorber.
Fast, Reliable and can deal some massive damage.
It has a huge movepool so you never know what to expect.
This is the set i go with, Do the calculations yourself, You'll be surprised.
Its meant to take out the obvious threats as well as provide spinning.
Modest Nature +Sp.A -Atk
6 hp 252 sp.satk 252 speed @ Expert Belt
Psychic
Rapid Spin
Hidden power fighting
Recover
The problem is though starmie has a monster movepool, 4 slots can only do so much.
You need rapid spin there, And you need recover to recover off the damage you may get switching in to spikes/stealth rock as it does not resist it.
Other options obviously include, Surf, thunderbolt, Ice beam.
I prefer psychic because once they see you have hidden power fighting they'll immediately switch to either a ghost to suck up the attack or something that resists it.
Psychic will ohko many things like gengar, mismagius and weezing.
Bulky waters will stop you 100% so its best to have a solid grass type when using this set such as sceptile.
Rapid spin is there for obvious reasons.
Hidden power fighting with expert belt, will OHKO weavile on the switch. It is recommended to use hidden power fighting RIGHT when you switch starmie in.With expert belt, standard bold blissey takes a well 25 - 30% out of it.Calm blissey takes a mere 120 - 150hp damage though.
Hidden power fight will take a huge chunk out of tyranitar on the switch, And since starmie is fast, It will attack twice OHKOing the beast even with sandstream up.Skarmory resists psychic, but takes alot of damage from hp fighting.
Recover is a necessity to recover off the damage it takes getting in, As stealth rock does quite a bit.
You can use Timid nature over modest, But that won't help you as much as modest.You can use life orb over expert belt, But you'd want starmie to stay in, If you use life orb, Remove recover for surf/ice beam/thunderbolt.
Starmie <3

 

[Mr.E]

Donphan has so many things over Forretress it's not funny, one of them being an actual attack stat. You have some flawed standards if you think Donphan is a shitty Pokemon.

hey what's up Gliscor I can't even 2HKO with Ice Shard lewl

Forretress has a pretty mean STAB Gyro Ball if nothing else, but it can also Reflect for team benefit, Explode, and use all three variety of Spikes (not just SR) no matter which flavor you're interested in. It also takes Special hits surprisingly well if you EV it that way (and can Light Screen), but Donphan's weaknesses don't allow for it regardless. Donphan's STAB Earthquake isn't exactly weak, but few give it the Attack EVs necessary to really sting and it can't do a damn thing to resists/immunes except annoy them with Knock Off. They're both usable, otherwise mediocre pokemon.

 

[Kijin]

hey what's up Gliscor I can't even 2HKO with Ice Shard lewl
Donphan's STAB Earthquake isn't exactly weak, but few give it the Attack EVs necessary to really sting and it can't do a damn thing to resists/immunes except annoy them with Knock Off. They're both usable, otherwise mediocre pokemon.

I seriously hope you're trolling.

 

[Forsety]

Actually I do somewhat agree with Mr.E in that Donphan of the utility variety isn't very threatening because of a few issues.

For one it lacks recovery so it needs the most it can get out of its defenses leading to the EV matter.

Will O'Wisp and Sleep completely shuts down Donphan, Forretress while say Starmie can be an pain and simply switch out even when asleep or still attack your weaknesses.

Actually while talking about the two I'm slightly disturbed about the lack of offensive Donphan's and Forretress. Sure they're effective as utility and defense but they can be equally threatening offensively. I'd had success with Choice Banded Forretress before for reasons similar to Scizor. (If you need a hint then its the typing.)

 

[Kijin]

Actually I do somewhat agree with Mr.E in that Donphan of the utility variety isn't very threatening because of a few issues.

Donphan and Forretress are two completely different Pokemon. Donphan acts as a defensive tank that is also able to set up SR. Forretress sits down and walls things while setting up your board and then exploding when it can't stick around any longer. While they both play a defensive game and can set up "spikes," you're comparing apples to oranges.
Forretress and Donphan have their own pros and cons, but you put them on your team for different reasons. I think in regards to the original reason why the two were brought up in the first place, Starmie plays a much worse game at Rapid Spinning due to floored defensive stats. It has recover which allows you to make up for the hit you took while Rapid Spinning + Spikes, but you're still going to take a hit after Recover and probably won't be able to play a very aggressive game with it.

Of course, I may be biased because StarSpex is the hotness.

 

[squirtleboy12]

i think blastoise makes a descent rapid spinner now that starmie isnt going to use as much.blastoise might not have that great special attack but it has great defenses and good hp..it has yawn,counter,mirror coat,no pursuit weaknessand the mono type has its advantages cause its not weak like starmie is to bug,dark,ghost..

 

[Forsety]

Donphan and Forretress are two completely different Pokemon. Donphan acts as a defensive tank that is also able to set up SR. Forretress sits down and walls things while setting up your board and then exploding when it can't stick around any longer. While they both play a defensive game and can set up "spikes," you're comparing apples to oranges.

And you've gone completely off on a tangent since I did not even compare them. You'd have to be borderline ignorant or in denial to not realise the two are members of the same group in different flavours.

 

[Taylor]

You forget the ever painful Pursuit.

Maybe a Sash Starmie with HP: Fighting? That kills I guess. I have one.

EDIT: Beaten. :/

Did you really post something like that?

 

[Jibaku]

As far as spinners go:
Starmioe dies to Pursuit
Donphan doesn't do anything to Skarmory besides random Knock Offs and Stone Edges, or even the random Thunder Fang. Skarm will slowly Drill Peck away... (This happened before. Someone kept on sending Donphan to Skarm and it eventually died of Drill Peck abuse)
Forry doesn't do anything to Skarmory except set up its own Spikes and shoot Zap Cannons.

In my opinion, Starmie still remains the best Spinner due to instant Recovery, and being a threat to Skarmory and Ground type Stealth Rockers. Despite dying to Pursuit, being able to defeat Skarmory and not fear Ground types are enough to do that

 

[squirtleboy12]

As far as spinners go:
Starmioe dies to Pursuit
Donphan doesn't do anything to Skarmory besides random Knock Offs and Stone Edges, or even the random Thunder Fang. Skarm will slowly Drill Peck away... (This happened before. Someone kept on sending Donphan to Skarm and it eventually died of Drill Peck abuse)
Forry doesn't do anything to Skarmory except set up its own Spikes and shoot Zap Cannons.

In my opinion, Starmie still remains the best Spinner due to instant Recovery, and being a threat to Skarmory and Ground type Stealth Rockers. Despite dying to Pursuit, being able to defeat Skarmory and not fear Ground types are enough to do that

blastoise dosnt take much from drill peck and can surfed to dead...blastoise could go up against weaville..starmie dost have the defenses to use recover properly..

 

[Jibaku]

Problem with Blasty is his inability to do much else. Starmie is easier to fit into a team because it can "counter" Infernape and Gyarados. Blastoise can still get worn down by Skarmory, since Surf does less than 4% to Skarmory. Also, Natural Cure is infinitely better than Torrent. Blastoise is a good spinner, just not as good as Starmie

 

[Deck Knight]

blastoise dosnt take much from drill peck and can surfed to dead...blastoise could go up against weaville..starmie dost have the defenses to use recover properly..

My experience with Blastoise is that it is the anti-spinner spinner, with the added benefit of being able to beat most of the standard SR users. The spikers and spinners it can't beat tend to be in the UU category, most notably Tentacruel(spin) and Qwilfish(spike). It also can't beat Skarmory since the damage gets roosted off. However, it easily handles Gliscor, Hippowdon, Donphan, Forretress, Torkoal, and Swampert 1on1. As mentioned before, full health Starmie with Recover usually wins, but Thunderbolt from Max SA Timid Starmie deals 139-163 (38.4-45.03%) damage. MC'd, that means 278-326 damage, which usually OHKO's Starmie (HP range 261-324). Since people often take out of SA to put in defenses or HP, often the damage is less.

Either way, I've really come to love Blastoise this gen. Since the metagame has moved away from the likes of Calm Mind Raikou and more towards the likes of TTar, Hippowdon, and Gliscor, Blastoise, at least for me, has enjoyed immense usefullness on my team where in ADV it was often left behind due to the rarity of spiking moves and not really haveing any no purpose other than spinning.

 

[Kijin]

And you've gone completely off on a tangent since I did not even compare them. You'd have to be borderline ignorant or in denial to not realise the two are members of the same group in different flavours.

They both posses the move Rapid Spin. A number of pokemon posses the move Rapid Spin. Beyond rapid spin, they all do other things, many of them different.
The reason I quoted you was because you were saying Mr.E had a point about one being better than the other; my point was that when each pokemon is on a given team for two different general purpose things (walling v. tanking), you can't compare them on a "one is better than the other" basis as you're comparing two things that are not alike. It's not tangental if you follow where the argument is coming from.

 

[Yoshi King]

My experience with Blastoise is that it is the anti-spinner spinner, with the added benefit of being able to beat most of the standard SR users. The spikers and spinners it can't beat tend to be in the UU category, most notably Tentacruel(spin) and Qwilfish(spike). It also can't beat Skarmory since the damage gets roosted off. However, it easily handles Gliscor, Hippowdon, Donphan, Forretress, Torkoal, and Swampert 1on1. As mentioned before, full health Starmie with Recover usually wins, but Thunderbolt from Max SA Timid Starmie deals 139-163 (38.4-45.03%) damage. MC'd, that means 278-326 damage, which usually OHKO's Starmie (HP range 261-324). Since people often take out of SA to put in defenses or HP, often the damage is less.

Either way, I've really come to love Blastoise this gen. Since the metagame has moved away from the likes of Calm Mind Raikou and more towards the likes of TTar, Hippowdon, and Gliscor, Blastoise, at least for me, has enjoyed immense usefullness on my team where in ADV it was often left behind due to the rarity of spiking moves and not really haveing any no purpose other than spinning.

Quoted for absolute truth, Deck Knight said everything I would want to say about how much I love Blastoise.

Despite that though I would still say Starmie is the "best" spinner if you play your cards right/play defensively. Its uses aren't limited to just spinning and those uses are damn potent.

 

[OldSchoolNub]

First off, bringing up Umbreon is totally pointless in this as we are discussing Spinners.

Why do you say Donphan get Stealth Rock when Forretress has it too? Forretress is just as easy if not easier to get in on most things to randomly set up any of the 3 Spikes. You mention taking special hits. Sure any Ember from any Charmander will OHKO it, but at least it isn't weak to water, ice and grass, 3 of the most used special moves atm, which Donphan is weak to. Not to mention, while Donphan is immune to Thunder Wave, I'd rather be immune to Toxic, as Donphan is going to die a lot quicker. I'm not defending that Forretress is better, but your argument is basically pointless in whatever it is you're trying to prove.

Not only that, but Donphan has a harder time finding room for Stealth Rock. Donphan needs Earthquake, obviously. Ice Shard/Stone Edge is mandatory, because you can't exactly Rapid Spin fliers to death. Then you've got Rapid Spin, obviously. You can stick in Stealth Rock in slot 4, but then you're missing out on Roar, and Donphan makes an excellent PHazer.

I'm not saying Donphan sucks, but he's certainly not superior to Forretress. He does some things better, such as attacking, but Forretress pulls off Stealth Rock easier and also gets Spikes and better type coverage. You can sit in there and laugh at any physical water/grass/ice moves...and it's not like Donphan can take many Fire Blasts, either. They both get smacked around by it sooner or later. It depends on your team, really. Donphan is better with some teams, Forretress better on others.

 

[megamanac]

Back on starmie, I think Hydro Pump > Surf on the cspecs set. You really need the extra power, and you're fast enough to 2HKO Ttar if it decides to switch in on starmie.

 

[Forsety]

The reason I quoted you was because you were saying Mr.E had a point about one being better than the other;

No.

If you take a look again I was agreeing on the fact Donphan poses low offensive threat.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Yeah, Donphan's the only Pokemon in the game (outside of dudes like Smeargle (lol, Rapid Spinning Smeargle)) that can do all 3 things, Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, AND Roar.

Starmie'll probably become a lot more popular once, if ever, it finds a way outside of Toxic to deal with Blissey. Hidden Power Fighting does very little to Blissey, and Focus Blast is still only a 3-4HKO with Modest and Life Orb or even Choice Specs. Starmie's been getting stalled by Chansey/Blissey since Gen 1.

 

[Deck Knight]

Quoted for absolute truth, Deck Knight said everything I would want to say about how much I love Blastoise.

Despite that though I would still say Starmie is the "best" spinner if you play your cards right/play defensively. Its uses aren't limited to just spinning and those uses are damn potent.

I'd mostly concede that point, but Blastoise doesn't suffer from "four-moveslot syndrome" like Starmie does. A Spinner Starmie that tries to do too much(ex. counter both Garchomp and Gyarados by forgoing Surf or Recover) ends up falling flat on its face(gem, whatever). Whereas Blastoise has pretty much the perfect moveset for spinning, being able to threaten SR users and at least do something to the spin-blockers(Ghosts). It also doesn't have a glaring Pursuit weakness and since it's a mediocre attacker at best, it can focus on defenses instead of trying to be a Spinner/Special threat. Blasty can for the most part switch in, do its job while soaking up a hit, and be able to come back a second time.

Blasty's points come mainly from the fact it can specialize solely in spinning, where Starmie's added versatility can cause someone who isn't clear on its purpose in their team to fail to use it to its potential. If Spiking stops being popular, Blastoise will probably fall out of use, whereas Starmie will simply shift over to the CSpecs or LO version.

 

[Elminster12]

I don't think Forrie is an offensive threat outside of Explosion, and certainly cannot compare to Donphan offensively. Gyro Ball, after all, has poor coverage. Most vitally, it is resisted by waters(halo thar Gyara and 'Pert). It is also quad resisted by....Heatran(who, coincidentally, also resists Explosion). Gyro Ball 3HKOs Infernape (using 162 attack EVs per the "basic set"). The only other attack moves he gets that are worthwhile(that aren't explosion) are U-Turn and EQ. Neither can be expected to do much off of his 90 base attack.

Donphan has 30 more base attack, and a STAB EQ. This pairs nicely with either Ice Shard or Stone Edge. Neither has a recovery move. Forrie has better defense and handier resists, but less HP(15 less, to be sure.)

If you want more defense, you want Forrie. But, as demonstrated, he's fire bait. Which you really ought to anticipate(or even capitalize on.)

Donphan is better for direct damage and about as sturdy(though he doesn't have as many resists and more weaks.)

I must agree both are worse than Starmie, who can recover if it wants to.

But, personally, I'm a little leery of stuff that has trouble dealing damage. And lets stuff like Infernape in....or some even scarier stuff if you run EQ...

 

[lilwartz]

When using Starmie, one should always Surf first, and then continue to Surf at random intervals to keep Tyranitar at bay. As long as Tyranitar isn't relegated to Ubers (which it will be at some point, but that's another debate for another thread), if it is at reasonable (~60%) health and comes in on a Recover/Rapid Spin/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam (translation: everything except a Water move), Starmie will be severely damaged at best. The standard Choice Band Tyranitar (max Attack, Adamant) does a minimum of 84.54% on the standard Starmie (304 HP, 206 Defense) with Pursuit without a switch. That said, Starmie is still an excellent choice for competitive teams due to its ability to counter big threats like Garchomp (somewhat) and Gyarados.

This is basically my whole thought on starmie. Starmie is still great utility, and surf is a must to use first, or immediately switch to something like scarfcross, who counters common switch ins to mie not called dusknoir. Once you have your opponent scouted, just try to put the counter in somewhat killing range of a starmie surf, or just save starmie for a bit later after their pursuiter or whatnot is dead.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I don't think Forrie is an offensive threat outside of Explosion, and certainly cannot compare to Donphan offensively. Gyro Ball, after all, has poor coverage. Most vitally, it is resisted by waters(halo thar Gyara and 'Pert). It is also quad resisted by....Heatran(who, coincidentally, also resists Explosion). Gyro Ball 3HKOs Infernape (using 162 attack EVs per the "basic set"). The only other attack moves he gets that are worthwhile(that aren't explosion) are U-Turn and EQ. Neither can be expected to do much off of his 90 base attack.

Donphan has 30 more base attack, and a STAB EQ. This pairs nicely with either Ice Shard or Stone Edge. Neither has a recovery move. Forrie has better defense and handier resists, but less HP(15 less, to be sure.)

If you want more defense, you want Forrie. But, as demonstrated, he's fire bait. Which you really ought to anticipate(or even capitalize on.)

Donphan is better for direct damage and about as sturdy(though he doesn't have as many resists and more weaks.)

I must agree both are worse than Starmie, who can recover if it wants to.

But, personally, I'm a little leery of stuff that has trouble dealing damage. And lets stuff like Infernape in....or some even scarier stuff if you run EQ...

What the hell are you even trying to get across?

Again you keep using one sided arguments. "okay well gyarados resists forretress gyro ball so let me mention donphan's stab earthquake that will surely make a difference" no.

Forretress's point is not to attack, it's there incase it has no choice. Otherwise, as things are switching into Forretress, they are most likely switching in on you setting down some form of Spikes or another. It'll then switch out, it doesn't need to attack. The only reason why Donphan was even ever used in ADV was to use EQ to hit Dusknoir when it attempts to block Rapid Spin. But now in DP, Forretress is like, Toxic Spikes, fuck off Dusknoir, which is a lot more effective imo as Dusknoir can no longer stall anything at all.

Heatran and Infernape also happens to get fucked by Earthquake. I am sure I can get by on just Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Earthquake, Gyro Ball, attacking only when needed, as surely other members of the team can set down Stealth Rock and what not, as common of a move it is.

Please try to make clear your argument and not to back off anything you were fighting for once you were already proven faulty.

 

[Fresco]

I cannot believe that we are still having this discussion 4 years after the release of advance. IMO the single biggest problem of ADV was the lack of spinners, and it is an absolute JOKE that not a single one of the new pokemon can learn rapid spin, ESPECIALLY considering the addition of stealth rock and toxic spikes. Complete joke. (If you mention Torkoal I will punch you in the face)

 

[chaos]

I agree, Fresco.

However, Starmie is still the best spinner :) The fact that it doubles as a Pokemon faster than Gengar/Infernape and serves as an Infernape/Gyarados counter in a pinch makes it justify its spot on a team. Weavile is a dumbass, anyway.

 

[Elminster12]

What the hell are you even trying to get across?

Again you keep using one sided arguments. "okay well gyarados resists forretress gyro ball so let me mention donphan's stab earthquake that will surely make a difference" no.

Forretress's point is not to attack, it's there incase it has no choice. Otherwise, as things are switching into Forretress, they are most likely switching in on you setting down some form of Spikes or another. It'll then switch out, it doesn't need to attack. The only reason why Donphan was even ever used in ADV was to use EQ to hit Dusknoir when it attempts to block Rapid Spin. But now in DP, Forretress is like, Toxic Spikes, fuck off Dusknoir, which is a lot more effective imo as Dusknoir can no longer stall anything at all.

Heatran and Infernape also happens to get fucked by Earthquake. I am sure I can get by on just Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Earthquake, Gyro Ball, attacking only when needed, as surely other members of the team can set down Stealth Rock and what not, as common of a move it is.

Please try to make clear your argument and not to back off anything you were fighting for once you were already proven faulty.

Toxic Spikes? Okay..Dusknoir is switching into you when you come out. He isn't getting affected straight away. If you have to constantly switch out because, in your own words Forrie really doesn't hurt stuff, then when are you laying down Spikes? And when are you spinning? If you're in for a turn, you can't do both, sorry. Staying out longer is dangerous, because, by your own admission, Forrie isn't actually going to hurt anything, and is thus very vulnerable to being set-up on. Either Forrie leaves the Steath Rock or whatever intact, or it lays Toxic Spikes.
Carrying two offensive moves on a pokemon not meant to attack also seems....contradictory. Why run EQ and Gyro Ball on a non-offensive poke? To cover for the fact he is unoffensive and needs to cover a lot of stuff because they can easily set-up on him otherwise. But, in so doing, why aren't you using Donphan? He has better coverage AND deals more damage. Toxic Spikes? That qualifies as a niche poke to me, which is exactly what Forretress is. Donphan is a credible attacker and about as sturdy, and certainly not a potential liability. He is the 2nd best spinner, because, like Starmie, he is capable of hurting things. Forretress is not.

Forrie can't phaze either. All Forrie can do is Spike, Toxic Spike, Explode, and be set-up fodder. Which is quite fine, but it doesn't fit in as well as Donphan on most teams.

Edit: And yeah...GF needs to make more spinners....and not stuff that's weak to Rock. What possessed them to give Delibird Rapid Spin? That was a horrible idea even before D/P...