Spreading The Disease... [OU RMT]

[-Broderick-]

I'm sure most of you get the title, it's an Anthrax album. Anyway, about the team: I've played at least 50 shoddy matches with it, and probably that many or more wi-fi battles with it, since I battle on wi-fi most of the time. However, with Latias being banned these last couple weeks, I've had to adjust it a little bit to accommodate.
I've gone through many changes with this team, but I think with having to remove Latias I want to have it rated, and see if any other improvements could me made. I'm not going to include a Team Building Process like my other RMT's, since I honestly can't remember all that's gone into this. But, without further rambling, here it is.


At a Glance:

And now we go in-depth...

Roserade@ Choice Scarf
Natural Cure
Timid
252 Special Attack | 252 Speed | 6 Special Defense

• Sleep Powder
• Leaf Storm
• Sludge Bomb
• Hidden Power [Ice]

Eh, I don't really like the Arkeis artwork, but it'll have to do. Anyway, on to this. Roserade is my lead of choice; well, actually, one of two. Swampert is the other pokemon in this lead combo; Roserade sleeps whatever the opposing lead is, while reaching a 459 Speed stat. This outspeeds any neutral scarfed base 100's, namely Jirachi, Flygon, and Celebi to a degree, since I've seen a few that carry Trick. The moveset is a bit strange I'm sure to anyone who looks upon it, but it's not just random. I wanted to have dual STAB on this Roserade, since I come back with it mid-late game if I'm in a tight spot. Hidden Power [Ice] is there because I carry Sludge Bomb, and pack Heatran on this team. It hits Mence, so if/when it's locked into Outrage I can safely come in and revenge kill. Same story for Flygon. Yes, I know I'm walled by steels, but unless I'm sleeping any not named Scizor, I'm switching out anyway. Roserade also serves as my Status Absorber with Natural Cure.

Swampert@ Leftovers
Torrent
Relaxed
252 HP | 252 Defense | 6 Special Attack

• Stealth Rock
• Roar
• Surf
• Earthquake

The next pokemon in the lead combination: Swampert supports this team by being my main physical wall, and laying down Stealth Rock. It also is my pseudo-hazer, being bulky enough to Roar out Gyarados without Taunt, Suicune, and also being my first switch-in to Tyranitar. Not much to say about the spread or anything like that, it's all pretty standard. Surf and EQ for STAB goodness; I'm debating switching out Surf for Protect or something else like that because I've added Vaporeon to this team. I haven't noticed anything, but if you can provide me with a reason to take some EV's to put into Special attack to get some 2HKO's on frailer sweepers or anything, I'll change them.

Vaporeon@ Leftovers
Water Absorb
Bold
188 HP | 252 Defense | 68 Spe

• Surf
• Hidden Power [Electric]
• Wish
• Protect

This used to be Latias, with a 252 HP / 252 Speed - Wish/Protect/Roar/D-pulse set. It was my main scout, an extra ground resist, etc. All that good stuff Latias does for a team like mine. However with the re-banishment of the red dragon, I had to find an alternative. I needed a bulky Wish supporter, so here we go, OU's finest. I haven't really tested with Vaporeon much, but it makes working around Celebi somewhat hard. HP Electric is for Gyarados, since Latias used to scare it off, but now I can just go for the super-effective damage and have it die upon SR switch in. Surf is STAB and shit, and Wish/Protect is the reason I have Vappy here. Rotom switch-ins are directed towards Roserade, and Heatran if they're bulky. Jolteon's tough though, however most are specs and I can go to Swampert and get an advantage.

Gyarados@ Leftovers
Intimidate
Adamant
156 HP | 72 Attack | 96 Defense | 184 Speed

• Dragon Dance
• Taunt
• Waterfall
  
• Stone Edge

Gyarados is my switch-in to Skarmory, Scizor, Swampert, etc. Taunt is to block things like bulkier Celebi variants from their Thunder Waving business, Skarmory from Whirlwinding and ruining all of my Dragon Dancing fun. It's my first check to Heatran as well. Early to mid-game I use it to absorb hits because unless I've missed Sleep Powder, SR is almost never up. I don't usually set up until I know they don't have a Rotom or Celebi, or in which case if they do, Heatran takes care of that. I used to carry Bounce, but I was tired of being set-up on while +1 by DD mence on that turn I'm in the air; the advantage against Celebi just isn't worth it. I don't hit Starmie as well, but switching Latias for Vaporeon helped in that respect.

Lucario@ Life Orb
Inner Focus
Adamant
252 Attack | 252 Speed | 6 Defense

• Swords Dance
• Close Combat
• Crunch
• Extreme Speed

Lucario is one of, if not the best, late game sweeper in OU. It fits well on this team, taking advantage of sleeping pokemon, as well as switches. He comes in late game and cleans up. I chose Adamant for the power, and I haven't really come across many instances where Jolly Luke would be preferable. Crunch is used over Ice Punch since Gliscor is not at all a threat to my team, while Celebi is a bit of a nuisance.

Heatran@ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire
Naive
6 HP | 252 Special Attack | 252 Speed

• Fire Blast
• Earth Power
• Hidden Power [Grass]
• Explosion

Heatran is my secondary revenge killer and main Celebi check on this team. It also comes in on Bullet Punches if it's a situation where I don't want to go into Gyarados, or if I wanna scare it off. Either way, Scizor switch-in. I also use Heatran to absorb Will-O-Wisps coming from annoyances like Rotom-H. Fire Blast is here as STAB, obviously, Earth Power hits opposing fires, etc, but HP Grass is here to hit Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, and the like on the switch in.


No threat list this time, but please give my team a rate if you've read it and gotten this far. I tried to keep it short and to the point, since I often tend to ramble on about nothing important. Anyway, thanks for reading, and please give me a bit of feedback on the team and if I may want to change anything.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

You should run a Toxic Spikes Roserade Lead. It fits very well with the theme of the rest of your team, as Vaporeon can Wish-Protect stall, and it also weakens Lucario's counters.

Roserade @ Focus Sash
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Toxic Spikes
-Leaf Storm
-Sleep Powder
-Hidden Power Ice/Fire

Place Ice Beam on Swampert. Surf and Earthquake have bad coverage together, and you are unable to check DD Salamence with Surf.

Last but not least, I have a couple of EV spread suggestions:

For Gyarados, use this spread:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
EVs: 152 HP/92 Atk/96 Def/168 Spe

152 HP gives you a good leftovers # and 168 Speed with a Jolly nature allows you to always outspeed Jolteon after 1 Dragon Dance.

For Vaporeon, use this spread:

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP/244 Def/12 Spe

This EV spread lets Vaporeon function as a more reliable tank, and almost always survives two Close Combats from Specially Based Mixape. You do not need 68 Speed EVs, as Skarmory are more Specially Defensive nowadays.

 

[-Broderick-]

You should run a Toxic Spikes Roserade Lead. It fits very well with the theme of the rest of your team, as Vaporeon can Wish-Protect stall, and it also weakens Lucario's counters.

Roserade @ Focus Sash
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Toxic Spikes
-Leaf Storm
-Sleep Powder
-Hidden Power Ice/Fire

Place Ice Beam on Swampert. Surf and Earthquake have bad coverage together, and you are unable to check DD Salamence with Surf.

Last but not least, I have a couple of EV spread suggestions:

For Gyarados, use this spread:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
EVs: 152 HP/92 Atk/96 Def/168 Spe

152 HP gives you a good leftovers # and 168 Speed with a Jolly nature allows you to always outspeed Jolteon after 1 Dragon Dance.

For Vaporeon, use this spread:

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP/244 Def/12 Spe

This EV spread lets Vaporeon function as a more reliable tank, and almost always survives two Close Combats from Specially Based Mixape. You do not need 68 Speed EVs, as Skarmory are more Specially Defensive nowadays.

I'll try out a Toxic Spikes lead tomorrow, since I'm going to head off the computer now. However, I'm a bit concerned it won't do what I originally planned: Surprise and sleep Azelf and Jirachi. Now I have to let Azelf set up its rocks or take me down to my sash, or let Jirachi Iron Head me before I can set up my entry hazards. By the time I get back in to do so, it'll be almost mid game. I'll see how it goes though.
Thanks for the spread on Gyarados, I can maintain about the same defense while hitting Pokemon faster than base 115.
Thanks for the recommendation on Vaporeon as well, I didn't see much of a point with the 68 Speed EV's considering Skarmory is covered by Gyarados and Heatran anyway.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Well, first off, since you mentioned that you don't like using Arkei's artwork, I took the liberty of getting you the original, Ken Sugimori artwork.

Artwork

Enjoy that. Now, onto the actual rate.

Infernape, specifically, Swords Dance Infernape, is a massive pain to this team. Your saving grace is that, if it's carrying Stone Edge (which, at +1, OHKOs Gyarados, with or without Stealth Rock), then Heatran can Revenge Kill it, so long as you don't accidentally switch it in on a Close Combat. If it's carrying Mach Punch, and Heatran has taken some prior Damage, then Heatran can be OHKO'd at +2. That means that Gyarados can wall it though, so you're safe again.

Choice Scarf Infernape has a field day with this team, OHKO-ing Roserade, Swampert, Lucario, and Heatran, with solely Fire Blast/Overheat and Close Combat. Vaporeon is taking just over 60% from a single Grass Knot, so switching in is practically a death sentence. In fact, Gyarados is your only real check to Choice Scarf Infernape, which leads me into my next point.

Offensive Suicune (Calm Mind/Surf [or Hydro Pump]/Hidden Power [Electric]/Ice Beam) can set up on on Vaporeon's Hidden Power [Electric], since it's not even doing 40% on the first attack (meaning after +1, you're doing pittance for damage). Gyarados is set-up bait as well, and easily gotten rid of with Hidden Power [Electric] (OHKO at +0 with Stealth Rock, and OHKO at +1 without). Even Swampert isn't safe, since, at +1, Suicune is doing at least 80% with Hydro Pump (just under 75% with Surf). You can Roar it away, but at that point, with Swampert completely crippled, and your team without Wish support, Swampert might as well be death fodder. Explosion from Heatran would be your best bet, seeing as it's a OHKO after after Stealth Rock damage and one turn of Life Orb recoil (wow, it felt like I was talking about Salamence for a second).

I don't really have any specific ways of patching up these weaknesses at the moment, but I'll sleep on it and get back to you tomorrow (hopefully).

 

[Alan]

Hey there cool team, it looks pretty solid but I feel like you could patch up a few things to make it even sturdier.

First things first, you have a bit of a Salamence weakness. Hidden Power [Ice] on Roserade can hit it, but most Salamence come in late game, and odds are Roserade won't be sticking around that long because of its frail Defense stat. I suggest to help cover your Mence weakness, placing Dragon Pulse on Heatran. Not being able to use Explosion and being walled by Blissey is a necessary sacrifice so that you can safely not get swept.

You also have a slight Life Orb Jolteon weakness, especially if it has Hidden Power [Grass]. Its not as severe as Salemence, and can be revenge killed by Heatran or Lucario, but I just felt it should be noted.

Thats all I can really see, hope my rates helped and good luck.

 

[Venser]

Lucario@ Life Orb
Inner Focus
Adamant
252 Attack | 252 Speed | 6 Defense

• Swords Dance
• Close Combat
• Crunch
• Extreme Speed

Lucario is one of, if not the best, late game sweeper in OU. It fits well on this team, taking advantage of sleeping pokemon, as well as switches. He comes in late game and cleans up. I chose Adamant for the power, and I haven't really come across many instances where Jolly Luke would be preferable. Crunch is used over Ice Punch since Gliscor is not at all a threat to my team, while Celebi is a bit of a nuisance.

.

As mentioned above, your team seems to have a bit of a Salamence weakness. Replacing Crunch with Ice Punch gives you the same 2x effectiveness to a Celebi, while being an OHKO to things like Gliscor (even though it's not a problem, more outs are usually good), Salamence, and Flygon. It can also has better coverage than Crunch, since crunch is only SE against Ghost and Psychic, whereas Ice Punch gives you a SE against Dragon, Flying, Ground, and Grass. The loss of 5 BP shouldn't matter that much, and to top it off, it's 10% chance is better IMO.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

.

As mentioned above, your team seems to have a bit of a Salamence weakness. Replacing Crunch with Ice Punch gives you the same 2x effectiveness to a Celebi, while being an OHKO to things like Gliscor (even though it's not a problem, more outs are usually good), Salamence, and Flygon. It can also has better coverage than Crunch, since crunch is only SE against Ghost and Psychic, whereas Ice Punch gives you a SE against Dragon, Flying, Ground, and Grass. The loss of 5 BP shouldn't matter that much, and to top it off, it's 10% chance is better IMO.

Just wanted to point out that even with Ice Punch Lucario can not KO Gliscor due to most Gliscor being Jolly natured, and even Jolly Lucario doesn't outspeed.

I would leave Lucario as is, but if you DO want to KO Mence, I'd try Ice Punch. However with Ice Punch you aren't able to hit Rotom-A as hard as you would with Crunch.

 

[-Broderick-]

Well, first off, since you mentioned that you don't like using Arkei's artwork, I took the liberty of getting you the original, Ken Sugimori artwork.



Enjoy that. Now, onto the actual rate.

Infernape, specifically, Swords Dance Infernape, is a massive pain to this team. Your saving grace is that, if it's carrying Stone Edge (which, at +1, OHKOs Gyarados, with or without Stealth Rock), then Heatran can Revenge Kill it, so long as you don't accidentally switch it in on a Close Combat. If it's carrying Mach Punch, and Heatran has taken some prior Damage, then Heatran can be OHKO'd at +2. That means that Gyarados can wall it though, so you're safe again.

Choice Scarf Infernape has a field day with this team, OHKO-ing Roserade, Swampert, Lucario, and Heatran, with solely Fire Blast/Overheat and Close Combat. Vaporeon is taking just over 60% from a single Grass Knot, so switching in is practically a death sentence. In fact, Gyarados is your only real check to Choice Scarf Infernape, which leads me into my next point.

Offensive Suicune (Calm Mind/Surf [or Hydro Pump]/Hidden Power [Electric]/Ice Beam) can set up on on Vaporeon's Hidden Power [Electric], since it's not even doing 40% on the first attack (meaning after +1, you're doing pittance for damage). Gyarados is set-up bait as well, and easily gotten rid of with Hidden Power [Electric] (OHKO at +0 with Stealth Rock, and OHKO at +1 without). Even Swampert isn't safe, since, at +1, Suicune is doing at least 80% with Hydro Pump (just under 75% with Surf). You can Roar it away, but at that point, with Swampert completely crippled, and your team without Wish support, Swampert might as well be death fodder. Explosion from Heatran would be your best bet, seeing as it's a OHKO after after Stealth Rock damage and one turn of Life Orb recoil (wow, it felt like I was talking about Salamence for a second).

I don't really have any specific ways of patching up these weaknesses at the moment, but I'll sleep on it and get back to you tomorrow (hopefully).

Thanks for the artwork links, but I think I'll leave it as is for now.
SD Infernape again, is one set or the other so unless it comes in late game when Gyarados may be gone, I'm in trouble. And the Suicune weakness is huge; I'll look over some pokemon and work out a replacement that can hopefully handle that, and the SD Ape weakness.

Hey there cool team, it looks pretty solid but I feel like you could patch up a few things to make it even sturdier.

First things first, you have a bit of a Salamence weakness. Hidden Power [Ice] on Roserade can hit it, but most Salamence come in late game, and odds are Roserade won't be sticking around that long because of its frail Defense stat. I suggest to help cover your Mence weakness, placing

Dragon Pulse on Heatran. Not being able to use Explosion and being walled by Blissey is a necessary sacrifice so that you can safely not get swept.

You also have a slight Life Orb Jolteon weakness, especially if it has Hidden Power [Grass]. Its not as severe as Salemence, and can be revenge killed by Heatran or Lucario, but I just felt it should be noted.

Thats all I can really see, hope my rates helped and good luck.

You're right, I do have a bit of a Salamence weakness-- specifically, Draco Meteor. That's a problem I've encountered a few times, is that I can go into Swampert if it's Outraging or whatever, but I have nothing to take a DM. Vaporeon and Swampert obviously both can take once, but are 2HKO'd despite the drop. D-pulse on Heatran does seem like a good idea though, since I could come in on a locked outrage.

.

As mentioned above, your team seems to have a bit of a Salamence weakness. Replacing Crunch with Ice Punch gives you the same 2x effectiveness to a Celebi, while being an OHKO to things like Gliscor (even though it's not a problem, more outs are usually good), Salamence, and Flygon. It can also has better coverage than Crunch, since crunch is only SE against Ghost and Psychic, whereas Ice Punch gives you a SE against Dragon, Flying, Ground, and Grass. The loss of 5 BP shouldn't matter that much, and to top it off, it's 10% chance is better IMO.

Dually noted... however how would I hit Salamence? Jolly Luke doesn't out speed new style MixMence. Not sure about 176 Speed Rash though, I'd doubt I out speed. I do hit Celebi just as hard though, for the most part. A +2 Crunch or a +2 Ice Punch both 2HKO if I remember correctly so that's fine.

Just wanted to point out that even with Ice Punch Lucario can not KO Gliscor due to most Gliscor being Jolly natured, and even Jolly Lucario doesn't outspeed.

I would leave Lucario as is, but if you DO want to KO Mence, I'd try Ice Punch. However with Ice Punch you aren't able to hit Rotom-A as hard as you would with Crunch.

Why would I stay in on Rotom H? The only reason it would come in +2 is if it was scarfed or hella defensive and at near full HP.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Infernape, specifically, Swords Dance Infernape, is a massive pain to this team.

Hm, not really. SD Infernape is handled by a combination of Gyarados and Heatran. If Infernape has Mach Punch, Gyarados walls it, and if it has Stone Edge, Heatran kills it with Earth Power.

Choice Scarf Infernape has a field day with this team, OHKO-ing Roserade, Swampert, Lucario, and Heatran, with solely Fire Blast/Overheat and Close Combat. Vaporeon is taking just over 60% from a single Grass Knot, so switching in is practically a death sentence. In fact, Gyarados is your only real check to Choice Scarf Infernape, which leads me into my next point.

...What? Vaporeon walls Choice Scarf Infernape to no end. Grass Knot never 2HKOs after stealth rock and sandstorm, and Vaporeon OHKOs with Surf.

Don't forget that grass knot has only 60 base power against Vaporeon.

This team does have issues with Suicune, but Heatran can always Explode and Roserade can Leaf Storm.

 

[Doctor Who?]

Run Toxic Spikes on Roserade for sure. It destroys bulky waters that halt Gyarados. Because they are lured in by Heatran you can have them fainted before Gyarados wants to sweep.

You do have a Salamence weakness so you could help with that by adding Ice Punch on Lucario>>Crunch. Crunch doesn't even KO the pokemon it intends to so I try to avoid using it. If you see mence early game as long as they don't have another Luke counter than it's safe to say that the next time you bring in Luke they'll bring out mence. I've nailed it so many times on my team which is far more mence weak than yours.

You also have a Rotom weakness because it checks both of your sweepers. Change your Swampert to a Scarftar and then whenever you bring out Gyarados early game, Taunt and if you hit Rotom switch to Tyranitar. This makes sure that no Rotom escape to ruin your sweeping efforts late game.

Then you could change Heatran to non-Scarfed and with Stealth Rock. If you have Explosion, Hidden Power Ice or Dragon Pulse this is another way you could check Salamence using a lure.

I know that this really dramatically changes your team but I feel that all of the changes are necessary. Hope I helped.

 

[-Broderick-]

Run Toxic Spikes on Roserade for sure. It destroys bulky waters that halt Gyarados. Because they are lured in by Heatran you can have them fainted before Gyarados wants to sweep.

You do have a Salamence weakness so you could help with that by adding Ice Punch on Lucario>>Crunch. Crunch doesn't even KO the pokemon it intends to so I try to avoid using it. If you see mence early game as long as they don't have another Luke counter than it's safe to say that the next time you bring in Luke they'll bring out mence. I've nailed it so many times on my team which is far more mence weak than yours.

You also have a Rotom weakness because it checks both of your sweepers. Change your Swampert to a Scarftar and then whenever you bring out Gyarados early game, Taunt and if you hit Rotom switch to Tyranitar. This makes sure that no Rotom escape to ruin your sweeping efforts late game.

Then you could change Heatran to non-Scarfed and with Stealth Rock. If you have Explosion, Hidden Power Ice or Dragon Pulse this is another way you could check Salamence using a lure.

I know that this really dramatically changes your team but I feel that all of the changes are necessary. Hope I helped.

EDIT2: Alright, I did some testing and Scarftar doesn't fit on this team when Swampert is taken out. I'd take out Heatran for it, but then again, I'm susceptible to SD Ape. Hmm... ScarfTar does seem to be a better option than Heatran, however. It gets rid of Salamence while still being a good switch-in to a weaker attack from Rotom-H. Quite the dilemma. Although the main reason I don't like removing Swampert and adding ScarfTar is that a situation that arose was this: I went into ScarfTar on Starmie, but it was early game and I didn't want to Pursuit, have him stay in and not kill, then be nearly crippled by a Surf/Hydro Pump. So I go for the Crunch, and Salamence comes in, and Crunch does about 30%. So I'm thinking... and I have nothing to switch in and take an Earthquake. Vaporeon could take one, but would then be KO'd by DM if he carried that.
EDIT: After going to check out some sets on the analysis pages, I wondered if I should try and fit Rotom-? on here as a spin-blocker.
Ice Punch on Luke is a definite change I'll make. Again, I need to test out Roserade with the Toxic Spikes set but for the most part it seems like it would be a welcomed change. Changing Heatran seems like a fine change since it can fill in the space Swampert fills, however then that's one less thing I have to safely take an Earthquake. Sure, Vaporeon can take one, but I feel like I may rely on Gyarados too much. And with making Roserade slower, Azelf will be able to set up its rocks, crippling my Gyarados after a switch or two. But that's what Vaporeon is for, right?
Anyway, I'll test the changes, but like Shiny Pidgey said about my SD Ape weakness, ScarfTar will only magnify it.
Thanks for all your advice man, I'm going to go test everything everybody has replied with so far.

 

[-Broderick-]

My internet was down for a few days, but Bump. I'd like to get another rate or two, since I haven't really gained a whole lot from the ones that have already been posted (no offense). The changes I've tested just haven't really had good synergy.

 

[-RatCheesy]

Okay, as mentioned from others Toxic Spikes > Sludge Bomb on Roserade because of being able to poison bulky waters and others who are weak to toxic spikes. Also, I have no idea why you have surf on Swampert, I mean come on now, you have Vaporeon with surf already. Give Swampert Ice Beam and that will sort of solve this whole Salamence dilemma.

Btw, people who have been suggesting Ice Punch on Lucario should really know that Lucario will be outsped by both Gliscor and Salamence. Ice Punch on Lucario is not necessary at all, Crunch is the obvious stronger move and will help against Rotom forms.

Heatran needs Dragon Pulse > Hp Grass, you already have Roserade as the grass type to deal with other Swampert's. And, one more important thing is you have a major weakness to Substitute Rotom-C and scarf variant. Gyarados and Vaporeon have no synergy in this team, you will just attract pokemon like Jolteon, Starmie, and Rotom. If you want to keep Gyarados, you have to get rid of Vaporeon or vice versa. Also, why bother using Scarf-Tar, this will add another fighting type weakness, a grand total of 3.

A sub-punch breloom could literally take out half your team, Zapdos could be a pokemon to consider on this team but its totally up to you.