Resource SS Doubles OU Viability Rankings v.2

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Crunchman said:
RE Urshifu: Urshifu is still incredibly strong (as seen in these two replays from Nido-Rus's OSDT set). People are a lot more prepared for it than they were a few months ago, and from my experience at least checking it offensively so that it never has a chance to put in work is the most common method to deal with it as of current. However, Urshifu is still one of the key figures that pressure Kyurem-B in the meta. Even if you tank a banded CC with chople, it's not a hit you would like to take.
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Yeah shifu-R should be moved to 1. This thing has ZERO safe switchins in the rain and i mean ZERO. Fini gets chipped a lot by sstrikes and rocks, pelli actually gets OHKOED especially after stealth rock, volc is 2HKO'd by cc, dracovish and kingdra are OHKOED by cc, blastoise is beat on the switch by shifu-r even if it locks itself into surging strikes (I'm using calc for adamant shifu-r tho because of tailwind). TLDR you basically cannot stop this from getting a KO (and tough to stop 2 or more).
Anyways, gonna make some noms:
:Tornadus: 5 -> 4: As crunchman said rain is secretly good in this meta and this thing can provide tailwind support for it (See why I used calcs for adamant shifu now). It doesn't need a ton of support, it just provides decent support and that should be acknowledged.
:Landorus-therian: 4 -> UR/5
Landorus incarnate does what this wants to do better because EQ is tough to use in doubles. there are better ways to intimidate (Read: incin), and we have our ways to bypass intimidate... (urshifu-rapid-strike moment)
:pelipper: 4 -> 3:
Crunchman said:
RE Rain: Rain is sneakily good in the meta, be it traditional swift swim offense or other rain beneficiaries like zapdos/tornadus/genesect ferro. that's all I have to say
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And pelli is the best rain setter (To probably nobody's suprise at all). It should be 3, as it is imo a defining piece to rain archetypes.
:politoed: 4 -> UR
IK rain is sneakily good but just use pelliper lmao.
:cresselia: 5 -> UR
use fini or for tr use diancie lmao
 
Pikachu_fan4820 said:
Yeah shifu-R should be moved to 1. This thing has ZERO safe switchins in the rain and i mean ZERO.
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Really? Because I can think of a few right now:

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Tapu Fini in Rain on a critical hit: 153-183 (44.6 - 53.3%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

156 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 344-408 (100.8 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rillaboom works as well if you read a surging strikes, and you don't even die to cc:

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Rillaboom in Rain on a critical hit: 222-261 (55 - 64.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Rillaboom: 309-364 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

124+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike in Grassy Terrain: 288-342 (84.4 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO grassy glide doesn't kill but clicking fake out once puts it in range of glide, so the fact that it's not guaranteed doesn't really matter

Zapdos can be a sac to surging strikes to get the para from static, and it can switch into close combat and then outspeed and ohko with volt switch (and before you say tailwind, zapdos can also set tailwind, so that doesn't track. it outspeed pelipper anyway, so tailwind is irrelevant)

Latias switches in very well to both of it's stabs. it only dies to ice punch and ohkos with psychic

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Latias: 161-189 (45 - 52.9%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Latias in Rain on a critical hit: 228-270 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

36 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 392-464 (114.9 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and latias also has tailwind so twailwind is even more irrelevant here

dracovish not being able to switch in is irrelevant btw, no one uses that thing

And all of this is assuming you don't see urshifu and immediately lead one of these mons, which is a very generous assumption but i'll allow it.

That being said...

:latias: Tier 5 -> Tier 4

Latias has a really good matchup against a lot of t1 and t2 stuff (except kyurem *laughs in ohkod by icicle spear*) and is the second fastest (relevant) tailwind setter. Like i said before, it's not perfect, but, like, cresselia tier? come on, this thing is not as bad as cresselia


Pikachu_fan4820 said:
And pelli is the best rain setter (To probably nobody's suprise at all). It should be 3, as it is imo a defining piece to rain archetypes.
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No, pelipper is 100% worse than politoed. The only advantages pelipper has over politoed are tailwind (which it's not even bulky enough to get off half the time) and wide guard which rain doesn't need and pelipper struggles to fit it anyway because it wants so much other shit. politoed is much more consistent, definitely shouldn't drop to t4, and pelipper is not on the same level as blastoise and lele, that's just absurd

Everything else i agree with. Idk why i felt the need to respond to this, i kinda wanted to just nominate latias and then leave (buzzwole is next, don't think i forgot about that), but i did anyway because i'm impulsive. ok bye

Edit because i forgot something in the pelipper part: yes, pelipper can run sash so you get tailwind off more often, but at the same time, you lose ability to hold another item. Politoed doesn't have this problem. it gets in, and can either get eject buttoned out to get a free switch into one of your sweepers or just spam icy wind and helping hand if your running damp rock (which pelipper can also do but it's not as consistent) and plus, you can just run zapdos and have an actually useful tailwind setter anyway, so it's not like running politoed really loses you much
 
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NotlPrimRose said:
Really? Because I can think of a few right now:

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Tapu Fini in Rain on a critical hit: 153-183 (44.6 - 53.3%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

156 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 344-408 (100.8 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rillaboom works as well if you read a surging strikes, and you don't even die to cc:

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Rillaboom in Rain on a critical hit: 222-261 (55 - 64.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Rillaboom: 309-364 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

124+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike in Grassy Terrain: 288-342 (84.4 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO grassy glide doesn't kill but clicking fake out once puts it in range of glide, so the fact that it's not guaranteed doesn't really matter

Zapdos can be a sac to surging strikes to get the para from static, and it can switch into close combat and then outspeed and ohko with volt switch (and before you say tailwind, zapdos can also set tailwind, so that doesn't track. it outspeed pelipper anyway, so tailwind is irrelevant)

Latias switches in very well to both of it's stabs. it only dies to ice punch and ohkos with psychic

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Latias: 161-189 (45 - 52.9%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Latias in Rain on a critical hit: 228-270 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

36 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 392-464 (114.9 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and latias also has tailwind so twailwind is even more irrelevant here

dracovish not being able to switch in is irrelevant btw, no one uses that thing

And all of this is assuming you don't see urshifu and immediately lead one of these mons, which is a very generous assumption but i'll allow it.

That being said...

:latias: Tier 5 -> Tier 4

Latias has a really good matchup against a lot of t1 and t2 stuff (except kyurem *laughs in ohkod by icicle spear*) and is the second fastest (relevant) tailwind setter. Like i said before, it's not perfect, but, like, cresselia tier? come on, this thing is not as bad as cresselia




No, pelipper is 100% worse than politoed. The only advantages pelipper has over politoed are tailwind (which it's not even bulky enough to get off half the time) and wide guard which rain doesn't need and pelipper struggles to fit it anyway because it wants so much other shit. politoed is much more consistent, definitely shouldn't drop to t4, and pelipper is not on the same level as blastoise and lele, that's just absurd

Everything else i agree with. Idk why i felt the need to respond to this, i kinda wanted to just nominate latias and then leave (buzzwole is next, don't think i forgot about that), but i did anyway because i'm impulsive. ok bye

Edit because i forgot something in the pelipper part: yes, pelipper can run sash so you get tailwind off more often, but at the same time, you lose ability to hold another item. Politoed doesn't have this problem. it gets in, and can either get eject buttoned out to get a free switch into one of your sweepers or just spam icy wind and helping hand if your running damp rock (which pelipper can also do but it's not as consistent) and plus, you can just run zapdos and have an actually useful tailwind setter anyway, so it's not like running politoed really loses you much
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what if i said roost on pelliper
and what if i said adamant+tailwind on shifu
 
Pikachu_fan4820 said:
what if i said roost on pelliper
and what if i said adamant+tailwind on shifu
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Like i said, pelipper struggles to fit roost or wide guard because it wants so much other shit like hurricane to beat rillaboom, icy wind for speed control, tailwind is a necessity, it also wants scald for stab, sometimes protect, and so on, and pelipper VERY often gets doubled or oneshot anyway so roost is irrelevant even if you can fit it. Notice how politoed doesn't have any of these problems. it doesn't have the 4 move slot syndrome pelipper has and you'd be suprised at how much that 20 hp and 5 def it has over pelipper comes in clutch in some games. I would know, rain is my favorite weather by far, i experiment with it a ton behind the scenes, politoed is MUCH more consistent than pelipper is.

And i already explained why tailwind is irrelevant.

Fini is already slower so tailwind is irrelevant

Rillaboom is using priority so tailwind is irrelevant

Zap and the lati twins are tailwind setters so tailwind is irrelevant because they just set tailwind themselves

And if you wanna talk dracovish for some reason, if it's sand rush you lose because they just reset the weather and oneshot your shifu.

There are some shifu checks i didn't even mention, like naganadel (which just sets tailwind itself, so again, tailwind is irrelevant)

And again, all of this is assuming they don't lead ANY of these pokemon and just oneshot your urshifu, which including mons that can outrun and oneshot before tailwind goes up i get to talk about genesect (scarf), zeraora, kartana, and so on (and even then kart sets tailwind itself so pelippers tailwind is irrelevant AGAIN)

Also adamant shifu is bad, no one uses it. I mean ig adamant lets you beat rillaboom on a roll but like, ok, i lost to a suboptimal set. I just take the L and move on, it's not that deep

ALSO also fake out exists. they just fake out your peli and kill shifu or vise versa

ALSO also also what dnagerbadger said, i didn't even think about the fact tailwind won't even be up a lot of the time, and even then they can just stall it out with amoonguss redirection (another check i forgot about) or protect spam

tbh idk why i keep responding at this point, i just hate the narrative that there's no defensive counterplay to shifu, it's so dumb
 
:Blastoise: 3 -> 4 Blastoise is just too passive in this meta, and there’s way too many spread attackers/grass types/Zeraora for it to create all the free turns it wants to for its ally.

:Togekiss: :Tornadus: 5 -> 4 Speed control is everything in this meta and these two are extremely reliable TW setters. Togekiss can also redirect with good typing, and Tornadus can offensively check a lot of the top threats.

:Araquanid: UR -> 5. Access to Sticky Webs and Wide Guard can plug a lot of bad matchups in this meta. Also a solid anti-TR choice with it underspeeding Diancie.
 
Actuarily said:
:Blastoise: 3 -> 4 Blastoise is just too passive in this meta, and there’s way too many spread attackers/grass types/Zeraora for it to create all the free turns it wants to for its ally.

:Togekiss: :Tornadus: 5 -> 4 Speed control is everything in this meta and these two are extremely reliable TW setters. Togekiss can also redirect with good typing, and Tornadus can offensively check a lot of the top threats.

:Araquanid: UR -> 5. Access to Sticky Webs and Wide Guard can plug a lot of bad matchups in this meta. Also a solid anti-TR choice with it underspeeding Diancie.
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I agree with the first ones but only one thing for me Araquanid is far from being a reliable Sticky Weeb and while we know that his ability allows him to keep a very constant damage avoiding being burned well his speed is something that does not pay much. Not more than 2 wood Hammer of a Rilla and the Spam of Zapdos zapdos galariam tornadus are in a very strong condition without counting that togekiss came back in an unexpected way due to sinister harassment of kartana and Urshifu. I preferred even a combination of slurpuff with any field next to unburden since I can prioritize them as riboombe does, these are cases where you want to prioritize the weebs instead of waiting to survive for cabbage.

wide guard is a very excellent function for the MU against Heatran and multitarget but Speed Control together with Urshife and other mons that can go against mons that carry damage such as Diamond Rocks Slide Heat wave Eruption are viable resources but not as a relevant position,
 
:zapdos: 2 -> 4
zapdos bad. Worse than torn on rain and worse than any of the other TW setters on offense. Like having a kartana without the offensive presence or zeraora without the utility. Leaving it at 4 because it's still good on rain and usable on offense, just very meh compared to other better options (better options because they have better urshifu and kartana matchups).

:tornadus: 5 -> 3/2
meanwhile, tornadus good. Has prankster tailwind for tailwind wars, along with 110 and 100 BP stabs (hurricane/weather ball) on a pokemon naturally faster than kartana. I'd put it at 2 just because of how good it is at overpowering most of the meta, but it does still have pretty lopsided matchups considering its low bulk and how easily it dies if it doesn't get the kill.

:nihilego: 3 -> 4
Hard to justify nihilego in a kartana/urshifu/rillaboom dominated meta. Not much has changed about this since a couple months ago, nihilego usage still steadily falling.

:naganadel: 4 -> 3
Good offensive TW setter. Pretty frail, but it puts in enough pressure to be worthwhile. Particularly good in current meta with its resistances to grass, fighting, and water (hint hint).

:zapdos-galar: 4 -> 3
Scarf has been seeing more usage, once again because of how good this is at checking all urshifu sets and kartana. (Notice the trend in all of my noms). Also good into 2 of the 3 relevant fires, and outspeeding pult/zera is very useful.

:landorus-therian: 4 -> 5
sad days for the face of doubles ou. Less relevant than ever before. Looking through the list of tier 4 mons, I'd absolutely use any of those, or a good chunk of tier 5, before using lando. Rocks are likely still good, but very very hard mon to justify on a team right now.

:togekiss: 5 -> 4
Still has issues with being passive and annoying speed tier, but has a pretty comfy offensive typing and good utility with TW + follow me.
 
you guys thought i forgot about this didn't I? WELL GUESS WHAT BITCH, THE BUZZWOLE LOVE IS BACK AND STRONGER THAN EVER, THIS BOI SLAPS!

:buzzwole: Tier 5 --> Tier 4

Buzzwole matches up against a lot of meta stuff rn (namely kartana, but post ban its still great into kyube assuming its assault vest, zygarde, heatran, rillaboom, incineroar, and so much other stuff depending on your set) and can fit on a wide variety of teams. bulky offense, trick room, pure offense, balance, you name it. If kartana gets banned its niche definitely becomes less important, but its still not, like, cresselia tier. i would use buzzwole long before i use anything in t5 outside of a few exceptions like latias.

:nihilego: Tier 3 --> Tier 4 or 5

I'm not exactly original in saying this, but nihilego is bad. its very niche and even when it actually does what its supposed to do its still extremely easy to remove. its terrible into most relevant teams rn, kartana basically invalidates it but even after the ban it cant deal with most weathers, both genesect variants, urshifu under tailwind, rillaboom, and zygarde. the current meta is just not very nice to nihilego, its very bad. Idk if its as bad as some of the t5 mons but if buzzwole is t5 there is absolutely no reason why nihilego should be t3. t5 seems fair for it tbh considering latias and moltres g are there too, but ig t4 is fine.

That's about it. I dont wanna just repeat what nido said because i agree with a lot of what they said, so imma just stop here
 
Tier 3 is pretty inaccurate at the moment, agree with the other noms around it and would like to add a few more of my own.

:amoonguss: Tier 2 -> Tier 3

The dominance of Grassspam is bad for Amoonguss, you don't want to stack it with Kartana Rillaboom, while going up against the two they can often just ignore it, or have the likes of Heatran power through it. Psyspam and Metagross being worse makes it harder to guarantee Spores against Tapu Fini teams, and Trick Room isn't as prominent a threat to want Amoonguss to deal with. Amoonguss competes with other redirection in the form of Follow Me (e.g. Togekiss), which can redirect Grasses, or Volcarona, which despite using Rage Powder can threaten Grass-types; much of the competition offers role compression too in the form of Tailwind support.

:diancie: Tier 2 -> Tier 3

Diancie struggles with all the Kartana/Urshifu/Rillaboom running around, some teams can get owned if it manages to set, but Diancie's not consistent enough for Tier 2.

:necrozma: :tapu-lele: Tier 3 -> Tier 4

Psyspam has fell off a lot (and has for a while now) and Necrozma/Tapu Lele should drop to reflect this.

:metagross: Tier 3 -> Tier 4

Metagross is awkward to use at the moment, being a Psychic resist isn't as important, while it can't fit all the moves/items it wants at once. It struggles against offense and faces competition from three much better Steels (Kartana, Heatran, Genesect).

:volcarona: Tier 4 -> Tier 3

Support Volcarona has picked up recently as a nifty option, it matches well into Kartana Rillaboom and helps handle the threats of Dragon Dance Kyurem-B and Shift Gear Genesect. Rage Powder means Volcarona works well together with the aforementioned setup Pokemon as well.
 
One single nom today as I have realized wenusaur is unranked.
:venusaur: UR -> 5
Venusaur in sun has a really good speed tier, outspeeding the entire unboosted meta and even most scarf mons/+1 speed mons. It can fire off fast sleep powders, hits pretty hard with life orb, and has good coverage, between solar beam, earth power, sludge bomb, and weather ball. (Of course one fault is it cant have all of them.) Its natural typing resists both of urshifu's stabs, both of tapu fini's stabs, and resists grass type attacks (of course not as big with kartana gone, but rillaboom is still a force to reckon with. Of course, venusaur is not without its faults; you usually want to run it on sun teams, and pokemon such as kyub, which is a problem for sun teams in general, are not solved by using venusaur. Its not the bulkiest pokemon (or if you invest in bulk you lose that offensive pressure). I haven't tested this yet, but a growth + giga drain bulky venusaur could be epic, in a similar vein to shift gear genesect.
 
more noms ig:

:Naganadel: Tier 4 --> Tier 2 or 3 how the FUCK is this thing in the same tier as scrafty? Naga is a great tailwind setter that has great coverage, an amazing speed tier and still has an offensive presence even at -2. It can also hit fini and diancie for decent damage on the switch, which is especially important in fini meta the sequel. When it comes to offense, naga is the only other tailwind setter i think has a decent shot at replacing kart as a fast taiwlind user outside of maybe ribombee. I would use naga before everything in tier 4 and even tier 3, and i think t2 is fair for it post kart ban.

:Tsareena: Tier 4 --> Tier 3 I used to think tsareena was bad, and then i used it myself. It has great coverage with hjk to hit incin and heatran and triple axel to hit zygarde and rillaboom, great utility in feint, taunt, and rapid spin, the ability to block priority with queenly majesty (and with rillaboom on 70% of teams i think that's worth noting) and hits fini and diancie, which is important in this meta. Tsar is a great off-meta pick that can fit on a wide variety of teams and it's overlooked a lot more than it should be.

:Scrafty: Tier 4 --> Tier 5/UR I genuinely don't understand why this thing is ranked. It's fucking terrible. Why would you ever use it over incin? like, literally ever? incin's bulk isnt a major drop, it has an atk stat that actually exists which means it actually has an offensive presence and it already underspeeds everything it actually needs to other than diancie which scrafty doesn't even underspeed. Incin also has access to a pivoting move in parting shot while scrafty gets fucking nothing. Scrafty is only good on fullroom and even on fullroom, even when its working as intended under the best possible conditions, what the fuck is scrafty doing that you couldn't do with another fake out user? it's fucking pathetic. The only reason i can see for using scrafty over incin is not wanting to stack fire types, which is reasonable i guess, but you could also just use rillaboom, an actually good fake out user that works in and out of trick room and actually has the tools needed to function in a tapu fini dominated meta. I genuinely cannot think of a single thing scrafty does better than any other fake out user in the tier, and if you look at it as a fighting/dark type it's still somehow outclassed by basically every relevant mon that fits that description. I guess it does have a niche on very specific team styles, so maybe it doesn't deserve to fall off the VR completely, but it's pretty fucking shit
 
Okay, let's try. I would put more respect on this underrated mon of the metagame.

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Tier 5 -> Tier 4/Tier 3

Yeah, I know it dies to every random ice beam, but with good team mates, lando can do his job.
I know Rillaboom and Kyurem are so popular and powerful in this meta, but lando can reply with a good boosted sludge bomb on rilla, and do a decent damage on Kyu-b if is not av.
Also Genesect scarf is a problem, but not the end of the world. Lando can easily turn around these problems with his partners, like incineroar.

Landorus Incarnate has a good speed stat, that allowed him to outspeed 100 base stat pokemons. Is immune to electric and this is really good.
This guy with sheer force life orb power, can destroy many pokemons of higher tiers.
Volcanion, Zeraora, Urshifu, Incineroar, Heatran, Metagross and not specially defensive diance die to earth power. Half of the pokemons in tier 2.
Is not enough?

Lando can also do a nice damage on Fini before calm mind, and can easily 2hit ko Zygarde.

Landorus can easily have the common set protect/earth power/sludge bomb and substitute that can really help in some moments of the game. You can sub in front of many pokemons that die to earth power, or sub in front of an ice beam to stay on the field.
The pokemon abundance also can put stealth rock on the opponent's field easily thanks to his good speed in the beginning of the battle or in some turns of transition.
The common set with protect/earth power/sludge bomb/filler is the best, but also scarf maybe mixed with U-turn/stealth rock/ earth power/ rock slide or sludge bomb is not bad.

I am not saying that this is the best pokemon, but to see landorus in tier 5 is unfair in my opinion.
 
:landorus-therian:
Tier 4 ----> 5

I really hate this but I propose Landorus Drop where I honestly do not see his ability in this gen Kyurem and urshifu are the main attackers and this intimidator does not have the capacity as Incineroar does. Seeing that one can stop kyurem and the other is simply very weak to the two mon landorus is a position where he can not make entry to these two and with the support of rillaboom is more than enough. I have not seen landorus in the competitive because it is simply not viable and there are other ways to play and the Defiant spam of ZapGalariam makes more irrelevant and useless the use of this mon so it should go down a little more because the position it has is not there.

Se nos va el perrito
 
Really quick nom because reasons:

:Tapu fini: Tier 2 —> Tier 1

I think fini deserves t1 again. It has great offensive and defensive utility, can run a wide variety of sets and is almost never useless. Even when it’s not able to set up itself it can still pitch in by resetting the terrain, eating hits and blocking statuses. It’s also a relatively easy mon to support. Add a rillaboom and incineroar and 3 filler mons. I wish that was hyperbole but it really do be like that. I think its definitely the weakest of the t1 mons but i think its better than a lot of the t2 mons mostly due to its versatility. When you see incin or diancie, you basically know exactly what theyre doing in preview. With fini you can’t really do that. When you see fini in preview, there are, like, 4 sets you need to worry about that you dont necessarily play around in the same way. I think fini is easily top 3 pokemon in the tier, i might be a bit biased though because ive been using it for almost a year nonstop, but its undeniably one of the best mons in the tier with kart gone
 
Okay so first off:

:Landorus-Therian: Tier 4 ----> Tier 5

This thing is great at coming in on zygarde. The issue is it can't do much to zygarde aside from throwing out a toxic. Too many things in the meta beat this guy, and it can't do much asside from intimidating stuff and switching out. It has a place on some teams but really shouldn't be tier 4.

Next up:

:Celesteela:

Tier 5 ----> Tier 4

More specifically, the meteor beam set. This thing beats a lot of good things in the meta and can sometimes win on preview. While I think it's good I don't think it's good enough to rank higher. It is still a matchup dependent mon and can't do much without a boost. It is bulky but not incredibly bulky so the defensive set faces the same issues as the offensive set in being very matchup dependent. Beats enough of the good stuff to warrant using though.

:Landorus:

Tier 5 ----> Tier 3

This is a pokemon that people need to try more. It matches up well against a ton of the meta threats right now. It can hit most everything for a massive chunk of damage and forces defensive play if used correctly. With everyone using metagross to check kyurem and diancie, this makes an excellent edition to teams.
 
:porygon2: Porygon2 to t2

this mon clearly good again lots of p2 semiroom seeing success, rilla now going knock often as result

:indeedee-f: Indeedee-F to t3

if want support on psy team ind does much better job, i feel its always at same tier as lele if not better

:naganadel: Naganadel to t3

fastest good tw (aside torn for rain), was used as a counter to kart but its doing work post ban, good offensive pressure with tw. funny scarf set can catch ppl too

:torkoal: Torkoal to t3 or t4

i think this mon has always been good, cover water weakness of itself and allies, great with stuff like diancie. def t4 at least. i think its t3 but not enough ppl use it to prove this

:celesteela: Celesteela to t4

meteor beam set seems pretty decent in semiroom now, also quite good vs lando i a new threat

:nihilego: Nihilego to t5/UR

maybe can do work in new meta but havent seen anything so cant be t3 atm

venusaur to t5

super fast sleep and decent coverage this mon def t5 cuz rly good in sun teams maybe even t4

dracozolt to t5

basically same reasoning as venu tho i think sand is weaker so idc if it stays UR but looking other t5 mons it deserves to be there
 
So once again I will nominate some pokemons that weren't talked:

:Mew: 3 -> 2 Just as I said before Mew is really flexible, can run defensive sets with Pollen Puff and Will-o-Wisp, offensive ones with EBelt, Power Herb with Meteor Beam and even setup ones with Cosmic Power, Iron Defense and Calm Mind.
It also has seen a better usage on SCL (12 until week 5) and really good results (8 wins). On Doubles Majors Mew was the 10th pokemon with the most use with a win rate of 61.54% (second best among the top 20), having more uses than Fini, Heatran and Amoonguss.

:Metagross: 3 -> 2 It checks two of the biggest threats on the tier, Diancie and Kyurem-B, while also being able to lure some mons when holding a berry, such as Landorus-I, Zygarde and Heatran. It also helps against PsySpam and is a resist to Grass types.
On SCL Metagross was used 15 times (until week 5) and won 7 games. On Doubles Majors it had a use of 14.47% winning 50% of the time.

:Dragapult: 2 -> 3 Dragapult is a nice pokemon, but it's too fragile and its sets aren't as threatening. Not only that, but Naganadel is usually a better opition as a special attacker while also having access to TW. The only reason that I can see for Dragapult being in Tier 2 is its physical set with Dragon Dance that still needs space to setup and can be stoped with Incineroar, Fini or a steel type, but can be hard to deal with if it has a partner with redirection.
On SCL it was used 6 times, winning only twice, on week 1 and 5 it wasn't even used. On Doubles Majors it was the 18th pokemon in usage, having only 37.14% of wins (the worst one among top 20)

Tier 1.5:

I don't know if someone has already talked about this, but there are some pokemons in Tier 2 that are way better than others and since they are not organized by viability inside the tier they could have a new Tier on their own. Urshifu-R, Diancie, Zygarde and Incineroar are the ones that I think stand out in t2 and really shape the whole metagame. Urshifu-R, Zygarde and Diancie are really powerful and can break through a lot of teams, while also being one of the reasons for the popularity of Rillaboom. Incineroar on the other hand is an incredible support and even having a bad matchup against the aforementioned pokemons it can still make great use of its ability, Intimidate, and its movepool, Fake Out, Knock Off and Parting Shot.
Apart from Rillaboom and Kyurem-B these 4 pokemons were the most used on Doubles Majors, and Urshifu-R was the only one that didn't reach 50% of wins.
 
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Update time! Before we get to it, MajorBowman stepped down from vr council when he retired, and taking his spot is umbry. Welcome aboard.

Tapu Fini Tier 2 →Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 2. Misty terrain is amazing, and it’s typing + bulk let it switch in on so much, but every set is underwhelming in its own way.

Nido: Tier 2, reliable good mon but it doesn’t dominate games the way it did in SM. Pinch berry nerf still hurts, along with a lot of viable common mons hitting it hard. Still solid 2 though.

SMB: Tier 2, it keeps struggling to win games on its own which is what would make it tier 1

Umbry: T2, choiced set are the way to go atm because cm is too slow, still solid as far as tier 2 goes.

emma: Tier 2. Better with Kartana removed from the metagame, but definitely not on the level of Kyurem-B and Rillaboom. I like what Actuarily said -- each set is underwhelming in its own way and as SMB and Nido-Rus mentioned this Pokemon is not dominating games and doesn’t deserve Tier 1.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Better with Kartana gone but Rillaboom’s omnipresence still keeps it from a Tier 1 level and a far cry from its ability to win games in SM.

Paraplegic: Tier 2. Everyone covered this one well.

Diancie Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Can take over games and it lost one of its biggest counters in Kartana.

Nido: 3 might’ve been reasonable pre-kart ban, but now it’s back as a solid reliable TR setter at tier 2.

SMB: tier 2, solid speed control, one of the best kyub checks, can steal games

Umbry: T2, meta lacking many solid steel types makes it even better.

emma: Tier 2. I think Tier 3 is pretty reasonable during Kartana metagame, but Diancie SemiRoom is pretty good right now and definitely deserves Tier 2.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Very good with Kartana gone, finds it quite easy to set Trick Room and go ham with Diamond Storm again.
Paraplegic: Tier 2. I’d sooner move this to tier 1 than drop it currently. Im of the opinion that this is the current best mon in the tier, its good into so many mons, one of the few truly solid kyube checks, so threatening offensively, and imo the best tr setter at this point in the meta.

Volcanion Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Literally fits on every team, and there’s not a lot that wants to switch in on fire/water stabs.

Nido: Tier 2, very splashable, reliable bulky mon, once again made better by kart ban and subsequent rise of bulky teams.

SMB: Tier 2, bulkier teams being popular make it more splashable which is the thing it was struggling with 1 month ago

Umbry: T2, agree with everyone.

emma: Tier 2. Again, a Kartana metagame nomination. Fits pretty well on the SemiRoom teams running around at the moment and on teams in general. Better now with the bulkier teams compared to the offensive teams we saw during the Kartana metagame.

Yoda2798: Tier 2 again. It definitely struggled in Kartana meta but now it’s back to being good again (especially with semiroom’s re-emergence).

Paraplegic: Tier 2. It might’ve deserved 3 during kart meta, but I think its the best fire in the tier right now easily.

Amoonguss Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. One of the hardest mons to check in the builder and the combo of redirection + sleep pressure + healing with pollen puff is amazing.

Nido: Tier 2, SMB sums it up well.

SMB: Tier 2, many teams are not prepared for sleep, one of the best semiroom checks and rage powder redirection is ok

Umbry: T2, great utility mon that puts a lot of pressure in the builder as well, forcing teams to run options such as goggles, good flexibility with moveslots too.

emma: Tier 2. Sleep is fundamentally broken in Pokemon, forces teams to run at least two Grass immunities, good into Diancie and SemiRoom, Rage Powder and Pollen Puff are pretty epic.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Teams which run it over offensively have declined, Spore is amazing and it’s good redirection support.

Paraplegic: Tier 2. Everyone covered this one well.

Zapdos Tier 2 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3. Second best electric, good on rain, and a reliable TW + pivot mon.

Nido: Tier 3, hurricane outside rain is unreliable but good and strong. Not nearly as good as it was during TW war meta, but still usable enough. Whirlwind is nice and being faster than urshifu and killing it with volt switch is convenient. Tier 3 if you can hit hurricane, tier 4 if you can’t.

SMB: I find it hard to justify zapdos on any team, this mon is pretty worthless outside of clicking tailwind. Its best role is on rain so I put it at the level of dracozolt on sand and that’s tier 4.

Umbry: T3, one of the best urshifu and genesect checks, ok option for tailwind as well

emma: Tier 3. Once of the few viable Tailwind setters, offensive sets can smack teams with Electric / Flying coverage, good into Urshifu-R / Rillaboom / etc., Whirlwind is a fire tech.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Outside of the fast-paced Kartana meta it’s much more mediocre, still a decent Tailwind option and works on rain though.

Paraplegic: Tier 4. I agree with smb on this one, I dont overly see the appeal of this mon right now.

Porygon2 Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 2. I believe this nom was made in the extremely offensive Kartana meta, but even then it was still tier 3. Now it’s even better as the meta has slowed down, it’s the premier TR setter.

Nido: Tier 2, has issues with being passive and no resistances, but sheer bulk and good movepool are enough for it to be a significant threat in games and teambuilder. Solid TR setter.

SMB: tier 3, good mon with many glaring weaknesses; toxic, knock off, taunt, no slots for protect, set up fodder, very passive if it doesn’t get the spa boost…

Umbry: T2, great wincon and TR setter, requires a lot in the builder for teams to reliably find ways through it, also very splashable.

emma: Tier 2. Porygon2 is really good right now. Never dies, BoltBeam coverage is great especially with Download boost, great win condition and Trick Room setter as umbry mentioned, ways to check it are limited.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Like Diancie, returns to being very good after the Kartana ban.

Paraplegic: Tier 2. This mon is just way better than it was in kart meta, one of the only actual ghost checks in the tier too which I find to be of note.

Nihilego Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 4. I thought this would have a comeback after the Kartana ban but it’s just checked by too much.

Nido: Tier 4, too much support needed and bad typing/stats for the relatively physical-heavy meta right now. TR being common hurts, rillaboom hurts.

SMB: tier 4, requires a ton of support to not just be traded by half a mon. It has potential tho, this kind of mons are always decent on bulky metagames, just needs to face the right matchup.

Umbry: T4, kind of a fishmon that requires very specific support, current meta trends are very unkind to it too.

emma: Tier 4. This Pokemon has seen minimal usage, seems bad into Trick Room being a move again as well as stuff like Rillaboom.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Despite losing one of its biggest threats in Kartana, still is just not that good.

Paraplegic: Tier 4, I guess? This mon doesnt really see usage or appear to be especially useful right now, I would honestly be fine dropping this even lower.

Pelipper Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. Hits too weakly, and can’t take enough hits despite its good utility of rain setting, TW, Wide Guard, Hurricane.

Nido: Tier 4, best rain setter but rain itself is quite a bit worse off now.

SMB: tier 4 is fine as the best weather setter of an average playstyle. Wide guard is broken.

Umbry: T4, rain not that great atm.

emma: Tier 4. Rain is not that good.

Yoda2798: Tier 4 is fair for rain.

Paraplegic: UR. I will always maintain peli is way worse than toed and not at all actually worth using.

Blastoise Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 4, my nom. Just too passive.

Nido: As SMB said, theoretically tier 3 but I haven’t seen any decent usage or teams with it. Tier 4.

SMB: If fitted on the right team this is tier 3 even if it only clicks fake out, follow me and flip turn. Ok anti trick room or bulky set up answers with roar and toxic too.

Umbry: T4, agree with everyone.

emma: Tier 4. I think it’s cool in theory but I haven’t seen it used and it’s always going to struggle with being very passive.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Agree that it seems like it could play at Tier 3 level but since that hasn’t been shown to be the case down it goes.

Paraplegic: Tier 4. Agree with everyone else.

Necrozma Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3. Psyspam is still a solid choice, and one that has to be respected in the builder.

Nido: Tier 3, psyspam is still usable enough to warrant tier 3. Definitely not a standard staple to the point of reaching tier 2, but a significant enough threat for 3.

SMB: Tier 4, necrozma barely fits on anything not named psyspam, this playstyle struggles a lot more to do its thing vs bulkier teams built around fini, both incineroar and metagross get more usage too.

Umbry: T4, only really fits on psyspam and struggles to make significant progress vs bulkier structures, teams also find lots of natural checks.

emma: Tier 3. PsySpam is still something people need to prepare for and Necrozma obviously flourishes on it.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Struggles too much into common stuff to be Tier 3 for me.

Paraplegic: Tier 3. Necro is such a potent mon even if it only overly fits on psy terrain teams, I think this thing is criminally underrated.

Tapu Lele Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3. Psyspam is solid, and this fits even outside of it. Priority blocking is a big deal, and Lele does respectable damage.

Nido: Tier 3, Lele is bad until you make it actually do damage. Still frail and doesn’t like the TR meta, but blocking fake out and chunking teams is solid.

SMB: Keep at 3, psyspam not as good as before but this thing is more splashable than necrozma.

Umbry: T3, good option on offense to break reposition cycles, also enables psyspam.

emma: Tier 3. Enables PsySpam and also good without Necrozma, blocking priority is kinda epic and more offensive sets are actually threats.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Better than Necrozma, decent utility.

Paraplegic: Tier 3. I agree with everyone else.

Metagross Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 2. A tank to remove and it hits hard while being intimidate-proof.

Nido: Tier 3. Good bulk, support options, and damage potential, but middling speed tier and having steel as its only ‘good’ stab sometimes leaves it in a relatively passive position where it’s dishing out 3hkos with stomping tantrum/ice punch.

SMB: Tier 3 is fine for a mon that tries to do a lot of things and doesn’t shine at any. A sturdy steel type is rare to see on the tier nowadays which is its main merit.

Umbry: T3, great bulk and utility while also being an actual steel type, bulkier teams often struggle to trade against it.

emma: Tier 3, but pretty close to Tier 2. Bulky Steel-type is good, Steel / Ice / Ground is good coverage, has some nice options for the last slot (Stealth Rocks / Toxic), matches up well into Diancie, Kyurem-B, and others, Shuca Berry is good for luring Zygarde and Landorus, Intimidate-proof for Incineroar. Speed tier leaves a lot to be desired and sometimes Ice Punch / Stomping Tantrum doesn’t get it done, doesn’t excel at anything, sometimes is pretty underwhelming, which keep it out of Tier 2 for now.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Good bulky Steel, but in practice feels too underwhelming to be Tier 2. Middling Speed especially holds it back.

Paraplegic: Tier 2. Im with act on this one. Best steel in the tier EASILY.

Naganadel Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3. Good offensive pressure + TW, and good typing to make up for it’s awful bulk.

Nido: Tier 3, hits hard, sets tw, great speed tier, solid typing.

SMB: Tier 3, probably the best tailwind setter for offense teams, difficult to switch into and good enough offensive typing

Umbry: T3, best tailwind setter. Kind of suffers a 4moveslots syndrome as it really needs every of TW/Stabs/FireMove and can’t reliably run protect which combined with its awful bulk is probably its main con.

emma: Tier 3. Best Tailwind setter, Dragon / Poison / Fire coverage is really good, but it’s extremely frail, can’t Protect, and folds into Trick Room or other Speed Control.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Solid offensive Pokemon and Tailwind setter.

Paraplegic: Tier 4. I dont rate tw especially high right now and maybe I just havent had my ass kicked by it hard enough yet, but its never especially impressed me in the relatively few games it appears in.

Zapdos-G Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3, been saying it a long time. Offensively checks so much because flying/fighting stab is amazing.

Nido: Would’ve said tier 3 in kart meta, but tier 4 now. TR meta being back with stuff like volcanion, diancie, metagross being more common is rough for it.

SMB: Decent mon but just as i said with nihilego, it’s hard for it to not be traded for just half a mon due to its many defensive weaknesses and also add the fact that most times it is locked because of scarf. I’d say 4 but tier 3 wouldn’t bother me either.

Umbry: T4, outclassed by urshifu, main thing going for it is that it resists grassy glide but has a worse defensive typing+most of the time you’re running a choiced set so it’s very likely to get abused or trade itself with brave bird.

emma: Tier 4. umbry said it well how it competes with Urshifu-R for a slot, and Nido-Rus said it well how it’s not as good into Trick Room being viable again.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Outclassed heavily by Urshifu-R, which can even take the role of Choice Scarf user more effectively.

Paraplegic: Tier 5. I think this mon is awful, never trades up unless the opponent fucks up and its just a worse shifu.

Volcarona Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. While it has two usable sets, both are underwhelming.

Nido: Tier 4, same as before, TR meta being back hurts it. Support volc was never a great set to begin with and only modeled for kart meta, so it doesn’t really perform well now.

SMB: tier 4, rock types are great because they check kyub, apparently they check volcarona pretty well too. Volcanion and semiroom get more usage which doesn’t benefit it either.

Umbry: T4, outclassed as support and underwhelming as setup sweeper, recent trends like diancie and volcanion are unkind to it as well.

emma: Tier 4. Support and Quiver Dance both seem not that amazing to me, not too good into Trick Room.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Kartana going and semiroom coming back throws out any question of a rise.

Paraplegic: Tier 4. Agree with everyone else.

Tsareena Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3, priority blocking is huge, and with Kart gone it’s the 3rd best grass.

Nido: If tier 3.5 was a thing I’d put it there, but I’ll go with tier 3. A little too passive/frail and mono-grass typing is very rough, but good offensive options and very useful ability. Either worst mon in 3 or best mon in 4.

SMB: Tier 4, blocking priority moves is nice but I wouldn’t say it’s as valuable as it might seem on most games? Fits well on offense and that’s it.

Umbry: T4, agree with SMB.

emma: Tier 4. I struggle to put this on a lot of teams with Rillaboom and Amoonguss being a lot better, but has a cool niche in blocking priority for Offensive teams.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Very rare that this feels worth it over another Grass-type (Rillaboom), where Tsareena currently is feels accurate.

Paraplegic: Tier 4. Fuck triple axel.

Tornadus-I Tier 5 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 4. Prankster TW is great, and it still has a respectable offensive presence.

Nido: Tier 2 in kart meta, tier 4 now. Still a solid option on rain, but rain itself is looking much more dicey now. Probably not worth using outside rain, whimsicott does the prankster tw job with better support pressure through priority encore.

SMB: Tier 5, maybe 4 if i’d consider it at the same level of zapdos on rain which I don’t. Looking at what’s popular atm I wouldn’t use this outside of rain.

Umbry: T5, too frail and prankster tailwind isn’t as valuable anymore.

emma: Tier 5. Rain is not that good, prankster Tailwind set doesn’t appeal to me much outside of Weather.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Prankster Tailwind is a thing but not enough, and that’s the only thing really going for it. Even on rain I like Zapdos much more.

Paraplegic: Tier 5. I have explored this mon more than I probably should’ve, its just not all that good anymore post-kart.

Landorus-I Tier 5 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3 at least. Tons of scl usage. Instead of zygarde’s spread damage and bulk, this mon guarantees to outspeed and ohko a lot of notable Pokémon.

Nido: Tier 3, has been steadily getting high usage in SCL, though I agree with SMB here. Right now it’s amazing for the sudden rise of bulky semiroom, but will prob fall to 4 once meta shifts more.

SMB: I’ve been saying this should be at least 1 tier above lando-t for months... Metagame atm is kind to it so tier 3 is fine, although eventually it will fall to 4.

Umbry: I’d say T2 in current meta but not opposed to 3 at all, protect 3atks is probably the single most oppressive immediate threat in the metagame as well as being one of the best late game cleaners. Offensive ground type is amazing and pretty much 1hkos/2hkos almost the entire tier as well as fitting on a lot of teams, focus blast also has good upsides as a possible 4th moveslot to hit kyurem and porygon2.

emma: Tier 2. This Pokemon is really good right now. Ground / Poison is amazing coverage into basically everything (and still has other cool options for the last slot) and the list of things that switch in include Celesteela, Assault Vest Kyurem-B without Stealth Rocks up, and then perhaps Porygon2. Perhaps it will fall as the metagame shifts, but it’s amazing right now and we plan to update the VR after SCL ends so it deserves Tier 2 (at least for now) in my opinion.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Biggest trend at the moment as a strong attacker with a respectable Speed tier, Tier 2 feels like jumping the gun for now though as the metagame shifts.

Paraplegic: Tier 3. Agree with everyone who said it belongs there right now.

Capture.PNG

Sprites, changes, and the actual update to the op incoming later today!
 
:Landorus:

Tier 3 ----> Tier 1

One of the most used mons in scl with one of the highest winrates. It's very good, considered broken by some, has very few switch-ins, a good speedtier and fits in well on every playstyle. Depending on the moveset it can 2hko every pokemon in this tier, outside of Zapdos and Cresselia. It shapes teambuilding, because there are so few answers to it and makes multiple playstyles like semiroom or fake tears much more viable.
 
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Frania said:
:Landorus:

Tier 3 ----> Tier 1

One of the most used mons in scl with one of the highest winrates. It's very good, considered broken by some, has very few switch-ins, a good speedtier and fits in well on every playstyle. Depending on the moveset it can 2hko every pokemon in this tier, outside of Zapdos and Cresselia. It shapes teambuilding, because there are so few answers to it and it makes multiple playstyles like semiroom or fake tears much more viable.
Click to expand...
Agreeing with frania is one of the strongest mons currently which can give large amounts of damage and with very good speed for current metagame. Sheer force is doing destruction and I support this nomination. Fran you took away my post I hate you ❤ <3
 
:landorus:

Tier 2 or even Tier 1

Landorus is one of the naturally fastest Pokemon in the metagame right now with being capable of threatening a lot of hier tiered Pokemon due to Sheer Force and its great SpA stat and solid high base power moves like Earth Power, Psychic, Sludge Wave, and protect lets you scout easily, what the opponent might do. A Ground-type which is able to threaten both Rillaboom and Amoonguss is always appreciated and a great tool to have in the metagame. Its also able to threaten huge damage on the likes od Metagross, Tapu Fini, and is a decent check to Zeraora and threatens it out. Its sitting at a good SCL usage stat and winratio and therefore should climb the tiers.

:mew: and :zapdos:

One tier higher, so Tier 2

Mew should go to tier 2 with a greatSCL usage stat and solid winrati, great fake Out support with Stealth Rock or Tailwind, it makes itself as a great asset for role compression to support its team and it can check staples really well with Ice Beam nailing Ground-types such as Zygarde and also Grass-types such as Rillaboom.

Speed control is really great with tailwind support and offensive teammates, so Zapdos comes in on a natural way with being able to threaten Rillaboom, Amoonguss, and Urshifu, which makes it a great support Pokemon. It can always threaten common leads as well. and therefore should be recognized as a Pokemon moving upa (sub)tier.

I feel both Mew and Zapdos should move up for those reasons, as they provide alot of supportive tools to capitalize from common staples and leads.
 
Noms? Om nom noms? NOM NOM NOMS-

:Landorus: -> Tier 1/Maybe Banned?

Landorus has proven itself as an insanely good special attacker. It 2hkos everything in the tier and nothing actually wants to take hits from it. Smogon defines a counter as: a pokemon that can switch in to another pokemon and proceed to win. By this logic, Landorus by definition has very little or maybe even no counters because of how little can safely switch in on it. It also has a great speed tier and unironically runs scarf sets, so forget about outspeeding it too. Even common counters/checks to it can struggle to actually switch in on it. Celesteela? 2hkod by focus blast. Zapdos? takes a good chunk from sludge bomb and can't do shit back anyway. Kyurem-Black? straight up drops to focus blast and is outsped. I mean what the fuck is this? ive seen people say it'll die down as the meta develops but uh, i dont see that happening. This thing is busted, but you dont have to take my word for it, watch the scl replays, look at the calcs, see for yourself how stupidly powerful this thing is. I think its easily tier 1 but i wouldn't be suprised if it was suspected or maybe even banned

:Naganadel: -> Tier 2

I think naganadel is cracked. It's the go-to tailwind setter for offensive teams and really just does it all. Its a tailwind setter, its fast, it does good damage and has decent coverage as well. Its definitely better than psyspam which feels like a glorified matchup fish to me tbh and metagross who's a pretty cool pokemon but doesn't really command respect as much as naganadel does in my eyes, mostly due to its middling speed making it pretty easy to outspeed and ko unlike naga. maybe not better than mew but i also think that should move up. Speaking of which....

:Mew: -> Tier 2

Mew can do basically everything. Ive been a fan of offensive mew for a while, it can run a more defensive set, it can run meteor beam expanding force sets, transform, if you can think of a role on a team, mew can fill it (granted to varying degrees of success but still its one of if not the only pokemon that can do everything) It has insane versatility and you can never really know what its going to do on preview. Tbh i just think its better than everything else in t3 so it should move up (I think zapdos could probably move up but idk, i feel like its around metagross level, if not slightly better. Its a good tailwind setter but its pretty passive and never really feels threatening or like it does something important that wins you the game. It has its place but idk if its chillin with incin and urshifu)

:Genesect:-> Tier 3

I dont think genesect is very good right now. Shift gear is straight up a bad set, lets get this out of the way right now. Its terrible, it was never good to begin with and thrived off of shock value but now that we know what to expect its a piss poor setup sweeper that's walled by half the mons in the damn tier. Also, if youre using shift gear, youre not using scarf, which is a pretty big tradeoff and scarf isnt even that great to begin with, so thats really saying something there. Now lets talk about scarf. Scarf is a bit more debatable but its just felt underwhelming recently, at least for me. It just doesn't really feel like it has the power to keep up in this meta and really wants to be able to switch moves a lot of the time. It just feels like a u turn bot a lot of the time. A good u turn bot, but a u turn bot nonetheless. Overall, genesect has two usable sets but both feel pretty underwhelming, but that's just me. Imo its either one of the best mons in 3 or the worst pokemon in tier 2 by a pretty wide margin if we're being realistic here. If tier 2.5 was a thing i'd probably put it there

Are these takes original? No. But do i care? No. Am i gonna post this anyway? Yes. Ok bye :3
 
rises

:Landorus: -> t1
this has been mentioned a few times already but I believe it's the case. contender for the strongest immediate source of damage, incredible coverage options that can change what its checks are, its also one of its own best checks, similar to the landorus-t of past. teams should be preparing for this mon in several ways.

:sylveon: -> t4-5
has proven itself by netting a win in scl, on top of some of my own games in majors. criminally under explored mon, outclassed by fini as a calm minder, but doesn't share the glaring weaknesses to electric and grass. it also lets you slot the better water type volcanion on your team :blobthumbsup:

:incineroar: -> t1
incin is broken again, and I'm all for it. many viable items it can run keeps opponents on their toes, otherwise it does the same thing every game.

:celesteela: -> t2
I don't think this is this months gimmick, the offensive steela set is absurdly strong. very little can beat steela and more than 1/3 of its common partners.

:kyurem: -> t3-4
base kyurem is good, the same typing as kyub, but even better damage. can blow away unprepared teams when combined with choice specs and hail for perfect accuracy blizzards.

:ninetales-alola: -> wherever base kyurem goes
hail good, lots of support options like encore veil hypnosis and fake tears. staple for base kyurem, can be run without it though on certain offensive teams

:volcarona: -> t3
quiver dance set needs a ton of support, but its still strong. support set is where its at though, rage powder that threatens the grass types that ignore it, on top of flame body being a great status spreader against physical options, while also deterring fake outs coming its direction.

drops

:heatran: -> t3 OR :volcanion:-> t1
should not be in the same tier as volcanion, its worse overall as a fire type, and significantly worse into common teams that it was during kart meta.

:zygarde: -> t3
outclassed as a ground type by landorus, outclassed as a dd sweeper by kyub.

:landorus-therian: -> ur
this thing SUCKS lmao, first time ever being worse than its regular form, its just not good, and takes up the slot of its better forme. intimidate is not worth it when incin is so much better at spreading it.

:dragapult: -> t3-4
editing this in, I honestly thought it was lower than t2 wtf, its not that good at all rn
 
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