Resource SS Doubles OU Viability Rankings v.2

[Paraplegic]

Hey everyone, update time!!! The VR council voted both on a regular slate and the lower tier sweep this time around, and for sake of ease I just included any UR -> Ranked noms and noms to move mons between tiers 4 and 5 as part of the low tier sweep. Noms to move mons from tier 4 up were included on the actual slate. Before I get around to the results, I have to announce that Ezrael has stepped down from the vr council. Thank you for lending your time and expertise to the cause, you will be missed. qsns and shrop abstained from voting this time around as well, but to make sure we had enough votes to actually do this we have acquired two new members! We welcome AuraRayquaza and Yoda2798 into our ranks and are glad (and thankful) to have them aboard. Without further ado, here are the results of the vote:

Rillaboom Tier 2 →Tier 1

votes

AuraRayquaza: (yes) ehhh this is probs t1 :( thing is hard to ko and makes other things hard to ko which is good. I think being a grass type makes it really really easy to abuse so im very on the fence but honestly it makes fini less epic which is the sign of a very powerful mon and it makes other demons like p2 and kyub more demonic

Paraplegic: Yes. Rilla is the most splashable mon in the tier, it enables the viability of several other mons, and is probably the most reliable glue in the tier when it comes to plugging it on to a team and using it to defensively check things. Very good, very omnipresent mon.

MajorBowman: 1, Rillaboom is super widely applicable and can bring a lot to the table in pretty much any matchup. You’d be hard pressed to find a team that is made worse by putting Rillaboom on it, and it has few hard counters thanks to its ability to pivot out at will

SMB: yeah, easily the most splashable mon on the tier and useful on every game, av set has really nice utility and band set is really threatening

Yoda2798: 1. Extremely splashable and and improves a wide variety of mons and teams without much downside.

Tapu Fini Tier 1 →Tier 2

votes

AuraRayquaza: (yes) fake af cm isnt even good. You have to dodge toxic rillaboom and every other grass, play super carefully into psyspam and even then its rough, not get pranked by blastoise roaring, not activate a wp on diancie, not switch in on too many regular moves and the list goes on

Paraplegic: No. I initially supported this nomination, but after putting a lot of thought into it and flipflopping my opinion several times, I came to the conclusion that I think fini is still a tier 1 pokemon. The amount of defensive utility it provides in one slot is unparalleled. Between the very good, useful resistances/immunities it provides, the benefits of misty terrain on top of being able to contest terrain at all in a meta where rilla and psy terrain are quite prominent, and calm mind being the cherry on top allowing it to also be a threat that can take over games, I still believe fini is one of the absolute best mons in this format and I view it to be on the level of kyurem-b and rilla, the other two mons I view to be tier 1, in terms of impact both in games and in the builder.

MajorBowman: 1, Fini is ironically one of the things keeping Rillaboom in check despite being one of Rillaboom’s better matchups at the same time. CM sets can still checkmate games if left unattended, and the defensive utility misty surge provides was explained well by Paraplegic.

SMB: This is something i wondered during dpl, then you realize every team needs at least 2 solid fini checks and even with that sometimes you’re not safe. It’s also the best answer to sleep and checks too many stuff. Tier 1.

Yoda2798: 1. I’ve swithered on this but I think it’s still 1. Calm Mind has more holding it back than in SM, mainly from the presence of Rillaboom, but can still be a threat. The decider for me though is the irreplaceable utility Fini brings outside of CM, as better described by Para.

Blastoise Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

AuraRayquaza: yeah this thing supports everything so well

Paraplegic: Yes. Aray put it well enough in so few words but to elaborate a bit further, the amount of things blastoise can enable is insane. It is like the perfect progress machine and we have prominent setuppers that pair very well with it that make it very much so a tier 2 supporter imo.

MajorBowman: Yes, has a really good toolkit for a support Pokemon and enough bulk to back it up without being too good. 2 is a good spot for it.

SMB: yeah, staple on every team with set up mons. Really good amoonguss check with goggles and also checks trick room with roar which these teams appreciate.

Yoda2798: 2. Great support movepool, insanely good with setup.

Dragapult Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

AuraRayquaza: yeah i think its helped by the fact that blastoise exists but it has opportunities to attack/dd against a lot of good mons (grasses + blastoise spring to mind)

Paraplegic: Yes. I am a huge fan of dragon dance pult as an alternative dd’er to zyg and kyube that actually has a valid niche, and while I am not that big on special sets, they do get pretty nice opportunities to fire off decently powerful attacks in this meta as aray said. This is a mon toise enables hard as heck but it does make it quite good.

MajorBowman: I think 2 is fine, its moveset flexibility means you have to tread lightly until it reveals its set and something with this combination of high speed, serviceable bulk, and burst damage potential is always valuable

SMB: fine mon but tier 2 is probably too much, I don’t think dd set is reliable and specs/life orb is just not good enough because it lacks the power to ohko many stuff.

Yoda2798: Abstain. I’m not sure where I think Pult fits, but it’s already been decided to 2 anyways.

Porygon2 Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

AuraRayquaza: yeah it does what its always done but very well now given rillaboom exists and stuff like setting up is getting worse. P2 just eats most straight attackers up bar urshifu

Paraplegic: Yes. P2 is consistently useful game to game, checking things with its bulk and using speed control and sometimes download boosts to generate offense. I think it performs at a tier 2 level for sure.

MajorBowman: I see P2 as more of a tier 3 mon, it certainly performs well but it’s somewhat one dimensional. It’s a centerpiece of semiroom teams but beyond that I can’t think of a reason I’d want to use P2

SMB: tier 3, it does its thing pretty well but it’s just too easy to check and not a threat per se

Yoda2798: 2. Porygon2 is a central component of semiroom teams and their recent success, and one of the most important Pokemon in the meta right now IMO. Reliably setting Trick Room multiple times is great, but it can do more than just that. The ability to use Download + BoltBeam coverage offensively, or Toxic combined with amazing bulk and Recover, ensures there’s always something useful it can do, pushing P2 to that next level for me.

Zeraora Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

Aurarayquaza: yessir this lad is very good

Paraplegic: Yes. Zera is very good, one of two truly good electric types in the tier, fastest fake out, coaching is very good on it, utility pours out of its ass. I definitely support this nom.

MajorBowman: 3, Zeraora is one of those mons (to me, at least) that has always done a lot better on paper than it does in practice. It has a ton of cool support options but it can’t do them all at once, and you really have to pick between one of doing actual damage and sticking around long enough to be an effective support mon. Fast volt switch kinda mitigates the second point but a turn spent volt switching is a turn not spent using something like snarl, coaching, electroweb, etc.

SMB: 3, coaching is bad, av is weak and its utility is not that good, life orb is easily its best set because of all the offensive pressure it has but it isn’t tier 2 material anyway, rillaboom is too annoying, same with intimidate and it fails to get some important ohkos in mons like offensive kyub and kartana

Yoda2798: 3. Zeraora has seen a lot of usage recently, but it hasn’t really impressed me that much in its games. Agree with the above, the offensive or utility value from it isn’t up to the level needed for tier 2.

Urshifu-R Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

AuraRayquaza: (yes) slaps p2 and kyub which is good enough for me ._.

Paraplegic: Yes, only good fighting type, all the other ones suuccckkkkk. It is capable of some stupid things by virtue of ignoring tect, and stab cc is a nuke in this tier with the prominent fighting weaks that do exist. Very scary offensive presence that I rate among the best in the tier.

MajorBowman: I’d vote a hesitant 2, Unseen Fist is stupid and Surging Strikes is stupider but Urshifu gets hard stopped by one too many things for me to be enthusiastic about rating is this highly. The prevalence of Rillaboom makes Urshifu scared and if you’re using Band (which is probably the best set) then locking into one of your stabs makes you pretty vulnerable to a lot of different top threats.

SMB: yeah, scarf is really good vs some common trends rn and band is pretty good as well. Ignoring protect is broken.

Yoda2798: 2. Breaking through Protect is strong, especially with two strong STABs. Also, the ability to smack Kyurem-B and both of the top TR setters (Diancie and Porygon2) is big.

Mew Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

AuraRayquaza: hm most teams look to something else as their tw setter now and its clear this mon isnt seeing as much use but im still a believer in the epic moveset so i will say no

Paraplegic: Heck no. I still hold the belief that mew is a top 5 mon in this tier easily, it is capable of doing so much so well and its way too consistently annoying in the right way to be less than a tier 2 mon in my opinion.

MajorBowman: 2, the vast number of things Mew can do makes it very valuable to a wide variety of teams. I know I spoke poorly of Zeraora and P2 by saying they can’t do everything at once, but Mew has so many options that you can pretty easily tailor its moveset to your team and always have something productive for it to do.

SMB: 2, it has been pretty disappointing during dpl but it patches a lot of holes teams might have with its coverage and utility moves

Yoda2798: 3. The Tailwind-oriented teams Mew used to flourish on have been on decline, and Mew has struggled to find a place outside of those. After going 3-11 (21% winrate) in DPL I can’t justify keeping this in tier 2. Someone could find a way to use it that changes my mind, but right now Mew’s definitely dropped from its previous level.

Nihilego Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: (yes) always a gamer but dou is being very rude to it atm :(

Paraplegic: Yes. Still quite a good mon imo, but its usage has been low and I dont really accept it being as prominent in the meta as the other tier 2s to warrant its current placement.

MajorBowman: Yes, agree with both of the above. It was very good in a meta that was a little more friendly to it but its game sweeping potential drops when teams are more prepared for it as they are now.

SMB: yeah it’s easier to revenge kill than it was before and semiroom builds have more popularity.

Yoda2798: 3. Not bad, but usage doesn’t justify tier 2. Metagame trends means teams are a bit better prepared for it now than before.

Spectrier Tier 2 →Tier 3 or 4

votes

Aurarayquaza: 4 this bum has had its time, zeraora p2 and indeedee psyspam make this upset

Paraplegic: Yes, tier 4. This shit was the first major crown tundra flavor of the month of what I presume will be at least several. Doesn’t hold the same place it did in the meta around invis and has fallen off the face of the meta. Its totally still usable but holy shit its not 2 lol.

MajorBowman: 4, was never really a believer in Spectrier and would have made this nomination myself had it not been done. Relying on mud shot for coverage is so sad and the rise in P2 stops Spectrier cold.

SMB: this has never been tier 2 worthy even when it got that popular. Tier 4 has always been its place.

Yoda2798: 4. Fallen off massively with the rise of Porygon2.

Diancie Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

AuraRayquaza: no sir this mon is still highly epic. Urshifu is very rude but outside of that diancie can very easily find itself in an incredible position where the opponent cant afford to just grassy glide or earth power etc. because of wp and a defense boost. n1n1 showed me the light unironically

Paraplegic: No. Diancie is incredibly potent and is finally back on the upswing now that people have adjusted to the nerfs and realized its still epic as hell. Definitely shouldn’t be dropping rn.

MajorBowman: 2, Diancie is still in a fantastic spot. It trades very well with a majority of the metagame and after a defense boost or two becomes a menace to take down

SMB: 2, snowballing potential is as good as before, still a really good offensive typing, solid trick room setter etc

Yoda2798: 2. Easily still a 2, Diamond Storm can still do a lot of work. Diancie doesn’t really compete with Porygon2 since they do different things, and you can use both together.

Zygarde Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: nope. Its actually quite hard to find teams with many proper band zygarde checks nowadays because lando isnt good. Rilla walls it but this isnt the hardest thing to circumvent and allow zygarde to chunk a lot of teams

Paraplegic: No lol. Zygarde is an incredible pokemon, thousand arrows is a busted ass move, and dd sets are so incredibly potent. This is my posterchild tier 2 mon and I think it very much so deserves its current placement.

MajorBowman: 2, agree with both of the above

SMB: no, if anything it’s better because many teams are dropping intimidate and fini doesn’t have a really high usage. If it finds a good positioning, which is not that hard due to its great bulk, it can be devastating

Yoda2798: 2. Tailwind Mew + CB Zygarde teams have gone the way of the dodo, but Zygarde still works without it for reasons described above.

Incineroar Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: (no) whom. This is still incin bros. The same one thats a great rilla switch, strong into psyspam, a rare knock off for p2/dpult/blastoise/kyub and intimidate in a format where lando is quite poor.

Paraplegic: No I swear to god its like people dont recognize the value of defensive utility. Its incin, the amount of role compression it provides and the amount of things it checks in one slot EASILY warrants tier 2 in my humble opinion.

MajorBowman: 2, agree with both of the above. I don’t think the usefulness of Knock Off can be understated, especially with the current trends mentioned by AuraRayquaza on the rise. Fake Out + Intimidate + Parting Shot is just nasty

SMB: 2, i always feel like this mon would need 3 items to be as good as it was in sm but it’s still the best intimidate mon, solid pivot, ghost resist, knock off utility...

Yoda2798: 2. Incin has been getting used less than Volcanion and Heatran lately, but it’s still pretty good. Great kit for utility, and checks a number of stuff.

Metagross Tier 4 →Tier 3 or 2

votes

Aurarayquaza: hm im still not a believer because i think kartana is so epic (and dont think kartana and metagross fit on teams together) and set wise i struggle to decide what its best ideas are but this is definitely 3 material at least.

Paraplegic: If I had made the nom myself I might’ve thought myself a bit overzealous, but since somebody else nommed it to 2 I totally think it deserves that placement. Easily the best traditionally defensive steel type we have legal in the tier, the amount of things it can enable a team beating simply my being plopped in a lineup of 6 is insane, and steel roller is a crazy ass move it abuses so god damn well. I’m absolutely in love with this mon and rate it among the absolute most useful mons in the tier when Im building teams, shout outs actuarily for making the nom to 2 because you’re so right my dude.

MajorBowman: 3, I’ve been a Metagross fan since world cup but I think 2 might be a bit of a stretch. Steel Roller is fantastic but unreliable, running multiple steel moves to cover this unreliability limits the breadth of Metagross’ usefulness, and Metagross is a bit too easy to wear down for me to think it deserves to be in 2 right now

SMB: 3, it deserves a raise mainly because people finally are using good sets on it but tier 2 is too much

Yoda2798: 3. Gross is cool but tier 2 is definitely jumping the gun. Agree with above on why it’s good enough for 3 but not 2.

Volcarona Tier 4 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: yeah this is dangerous, anything that abuses rillaboom to setup is gonna be p good

Paraplegic: Yes. Aray put this well enough for me to be satisfied lol.

MajorBowman: Abstain, not sure I’ve seen enough Volcarona lately to have an informed opinion here

SMB: 1-2 months ago or so I’d have said yes. The sweeping potential is always there but volcanion and heatran are getting way more usage, same with spread moves and trick room. Honestly both options are fine for me. Looking at what we have in both tiers ig i’m going to say tier 3.

Yoda2798: 4. I love Volcarona but I don’t think there’s been enough recently to justify a rise to tier 3. It only had 4 uses in DPL, in line with other tier 4 Pokemon, recent setup teams have stuck to dancers of the physical variety. There’s also a number of top Pokemon it struggles with (especially Diancie), so I wouldn’t rise this without evidence backing it.

Necrozma Tier 4 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: yessir good at setting tr with prism armour good coverage and gamer force

Paraplegic: Yes, I wouldve said yes to 2 if someone had had the balls to nom it up there lol. This thing is epic as heck.

MajorBowman: 3, a good example of a Pokemon that compresses a few roles (TR setter, stealth rock, decent damage output) into one

SMB: 3, agree with everyone

Yoda2798: 3. Expanding Force is epic with Lele, has access to Meteor Beam or Calm Mind for boosting, and can also work with TR due to being fairly bulky and having Prism Armour. Good mon that takes advantage of Lele’s recent rise.

Landorus-I Tier 4 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: nah i dont think ive actually even seen it that much. Its alright but thats about it

Paraplegic: No. I’m in the same boat as aray, I havent seen this used enough to feel like it deserves to really move up.

MajorBowman: No, too straightforward and reliant on positioning to not get sniped before making a meaningful impact

SMB: No, this should be on the same tier as lando-t, sadly both of them are (or should be) tier 4

Yoda2798: 4. Too niche, and even when I’ve seen it used Lando-I hasn’t particularly impressed me.

Lurantis Tier 4 →Tier 3

votes

Aurarayquaza: hm sure? It seems like with spectrier falling out of favour and p2 rilla blastoise being epic this should be good. What teams you'd put it on beats me tho haven't actually seen this in ages

Paraplegic: No. This was a holdover nom by memo that was just a bit late to be included on the last slate, and in the time since the nom was made lurantis has seen very low usage and hasn’t really done anything of note to make moving it up an appealing option.

MajorBowman: No, agree with Paraplegic

SMB: 4, i don’t think i’ve seen this since wcup so i don’t see the reason for a raise. Still a solid mon tho, but i think making it work on semiroom builds is harder than it was in sm.

Yoda2798: 4. Semiroom teams haven’t used this for a while.

Tapu Koko Tier 3 →Tier 4, 5, or UR

votes

Aurarayquaza: cya

Paraplegic: Yes, UR. This thing sees little to no usage and that is because it sucks. I don’t think it is worth including on this list.

MajorBowman: UR, this feels so bad what happened to tapu koko :(

SMB: tier 5, electric terrain is good on teams that desperatily need sleep checks. Specs set is weaker than it was in sm but i can see it working on some offense builds. Bulkier sets are probably ok too but i haven’t seen these since wcup.

Yoda2798: UR. Koko deserves to be together with Regieleki. One use in the whole of DPL lol.

Tsareena Tier 3 →Tier 4

votes

Aurarayquaza: yeah probably lele/indeedee are actually epic now and theres no shortage of better grasses

Paraplegic: Yes. Doesn’t see much usage at all so I’m okay with this one.

MajorBowman: Yes, agree with the above

SMB: 4, it feels outclassed as a grass type and blocking priority is not that relevant rn

Yoda2798: 4. Vast majority of the time I’d rather have Lele or Rilla.

Zapdos-K Tier 3 →Tier 4

votes

Aurarayquaza: Nope this is good id consider going in the opposite direction not down to 4. Epic tw mon that matches up well vs the other epic tw mon

Paraplegic: No. Aray is correct, if anything this should move up. The other of two legitimately good electrics that are legal, it provides good speed control, checks incredibly useful things like kart that can otherwise be very hard to feel safe vs, and is a bitch and a half to actually ko a lot of the time.

MajorBowman: No, agree with the above

SMB: 3, probably the best electric type on the tier? Fast tw is pretty good too. Bulky sets are tier 4 tho.

Yoda2798: 3. Agree with the above.

Cresselia Tier 3 →Tier 4

votes

Aurarayquaza: yeah quite fake tho it can still be very dangerous. Fake out: the format slows it down and it can really be hard to make things happen with this. Oh and p2 existing means toxic does which adds another layer of support this needs.

Paraplegic: Yes. That one team shrop used in dpl was disgusting but besides that I havent been that impressed by cress in a while.

MajorBowman: Yes, I think there are very few scenarios in which you’d want to use Cresselia instead of something like P2 in this meta, and P2’s prevalence is also rough for Cresselia since they share a lot of checks (notably Toxic and Knock Off)

SMB: 5, it can still beat teams unprepared for it but i’d say these are bad teams. I’d use reuniclus over this most times.

Yoda2798: 4. Definitely not tier 3 material, very little reason to use this mon over something else.

Lower Tier Sweep

Changes:
Tier 2 → Tier 1
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 2 → Tier 3
Tier 2 → Tier 4
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 3 → UR(lol)
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → Tier 4
UR → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → UR

 

[|Powerman|]

Tier 6
(DOU Pokemon not on the VR)
(Bolded Pokemon are ones I think should be blacklisted)
Comfey
Dracovish
Dusclops
Entei
Glastier
Regieleki
Stakataka
Tapu Koko

(edit: is it ok now)
Arctic edit: don’t use black and white color tags for anything, just use the default; those two colors don’t show well on dark and light mode respectively

 

[Arcticblast]

Tier 6
(DOU Pokemon not on the VR)
(Bolded Pokemon are ones I think should be blacklisted)
Comfey
Dracovish
Dusclops
Entei
Glastier
Regieleki
Stakataka
Tapu Koko

There’s no need for a tier 6. If it’s not on the viability rankings, it’s not particularly viable. These Pokémon are certainly usable (in the same manner that support Regigigas in gen 7 was “usable”), but not options you should seriously consider for your team. This isn’t OU where we have to have every single Pokémon in the tier as well as Sharpedo ranked.

 

[Crunchman]

Blastoise, and redirection in general, can't do much about spread moves. Blastoise is a great support mon! But Rillaboom hits Blastoise hard, and Blastoise is quite lacking in offensive firepower. Amoonguss' spore is still quite potent, as it's often paired with other terrain setters like Rilla or Lele. Amoonguss has access to Pollen Puff, a great support move. Amoonguss has the ability regenerator, and can be used as an eject button pivot.
Blastoise' access to fake out is great, but its just as easily outweighed by Amoonguss' versatility. Most teams can and do benefit from a redirector - but Blastoise is a utility mon, that basically does one thing, that usually doesn't threaten a lot of stuff, and doesn't exactly "dominate" a portion of the metagame as would be required for tier 1.
tbh, i think amoonguss is edging on T1, although the prevalence of heatran and expanding force, along with the continued relevance of fini hold it back. (when people start running safety goggles on almost every team, it deserves t1)
Volcarona - still a potent threat, but suffers greatly from horrible defense and a 4x rock weakness. Pokemon like tyranitar or diancie can crush it; in sand, tough to kill. Fake out can make volcarona less threatening, and urshifu is very popular. Volcanion poses a problem to Volcarona as well; Heatran usually can provide more instant and bulkier fire power, along with having ground coverage (and steel, if you so desire), even though it has less speed. Would not say setup mons are all defensive, either - Zygarde, Kyu-B, Dragapult are all potent setup threats.
Besides this, Volcarona also needs proper support to work well. It can't be put on all teams, and because of its narrow use in a certain archetype (setup) tier 3 is deserving.
In all honesty, I would even consider Volcarona to tier 4, but it is still a viable threat.

My Noms
4 -> 5
Lurantis is still a strong weapon, but there is so much ice and fire coverage that Lurantis really struggles with finding good matchups. Rillaboom's prevalence has stinted the usage of some mons like Fini that leaf blade likes to hit. I think that it fits well with Tier 5s description: Has a niche, but often struggles to find situations where it thrives, either because of the support required (trick room) or because of poor matchups (a lot).

1 -> 2
Kyurem-Black is a great pokemon, can be used for setup, can be used for speed control, can be used as a bulky attacker. However, it doesn't dominate the metagame. The emergence of Necrozma Meteor Beam is a huge knock on Kyu-B. Intimidate continues to make dragon dance difficult. Defensive/special attacking sets are still good and offer great support - I just don't think they dominate the metagame enough to justify tier 1.

 

[emma]

Hi, going to respond to all the new nominations. Even though I personally disagree with most nominations, I want to say thank you for sharing your thoughts on the metagame and I hope others do the same, especially once DLT playoffs end.

1 -> 2
Kyurem-Black is a great pokemon, can be used for setup, can be used for speed control, can be used as a bulky attacker. However, it doesn't dominate the metagame. The emergence of Necrozma Meteor Beam is a huge knock on Kyu-B. Intimidate continues to make dragon dance difficult. Defensive/special attacking sets are still good and offer great support - I just don't think they dominate the metagame enough to justify tier 1.

Kyurem-Black: Tier 1 --> Tier 2 DISAGREE

Kyurem-Black is the best Pokemon in the metagame and soft checks half the tier. Assault Vest sets can sit on the field for multiple turns spamming Icy Wind which can make it difficult for offensive checks such as Kartana and Urshifu to come in. Ice / Electric / Ground coverage as a whole is very hard to switch into. This is all without even mentioning it's Dragon Dance set. Don’t think Intimidate is making setting-up especially difficult — Landorus-T dies to 3 Icicle Spear hits at -1 with no boosting item while Incineroar is trending down in usage (11 uses in DPL, 16%, 17th most) and gets worn down easily. Even against Incineroar cycling Intimidate against it, it still puts in massive work as shown here. DD Kyurem-Black doesn't end up winning, but it kills Kartana and puts ridiculous pressure on Qwello Lee for ten straight turns that he has to carefully pivot around it and is able to make zero progress. Overall, it's one of the best Zygarde, Volcanion, and Rillaboom checks and I don't think a Pokemon that saw 30 uses in DPL (44%, 2nd most, next highest was Urshifu at 20 uses) and is one of the best offensive win conditions (example here) as well as defensive backbones should drop, even metagame tends such as Meteor Beam Necrozma and Urshifu match up well against it.

Tier 2 → Tier 1
In a far far land, somewhat away, there stay 2 redirectors, do I need to say their names, the draw attacks on purpose, that is the name of the game, but one is a cut above, while the other is far away.
Blastoise is one of the most slappable Pokemon in the metagame rn. Use it how you want, it will perform great. It has a bunch of utility in one slot, from a fake out user, to a redirector, to a phazer, and a piovt all in one. Amoonguss is really its only true competition, which you would use if you wanted to redirect grass and electric type moves, and Spore is potentially blocked by the excelent Tapu Fini, but Blastoise has so much utility that I think it deserves the Tier 1 rank with other splash able Pokemon in the tier.

Blastoise: Tier 2 --> Tier 1 DISAGREE

Blastoise is cool, but doesn't reach the level of dominance or splashability that the other Tier 1s do. It faces competition from Tapu Fini as your bulky Water-type and Amoonguss (which IMO is much better currently - people's sleep checks are only Misty Terrain atm) as well as even Indeedee-F on Necrozma teams as a redirector. Saw only 11 uses in DPL (16%, 17th most) and only truly excels on Set-Up Offense Structures (which are very good and Blastoise does a great job enabling it) which keeps it out of Tier 1. I think Tier 2 is perfect for it at the moment.

Tier 3 → Tier 2
Where powerhouses are rare, since setup mons are defensive, a moth-like freind becomes aware, and shows its brutal offense, its truly devestating, as your team can fold outright, its impact is everlasting, as its shows its great might.
Volcarona is great. Its quiver dance set is one of the most devastating Pokemon in the metagame. It can selectively choose which Pokemon it can loose to, for example Tapu Fini and Urshifu-R seem like good against it, until Volcarona pulls out giga drain and decimates them, Zygarde and Incineroar seem good until a boosted Bug Buzz takes a huge chunk that can be exploited by Pokemon such as Genesect and Rillaboom. With variance of items from HDB to nullify Stealth Rock, Life Orb for nuclear Power, and berries to increase longevity, even if its prone to revenge killing by priority such as Aqua Jet from Urshifu-R, it still is an absolute monster.

Volcarona: Tier 3 --> Tier 2 DISAGREE

Volcarona saw 4 uses (6%, 26th most) in DPL and 8 (15%, 17th most) since Top 8 of Seasonals. It requires a lot of support (I've only seen it with Blastoise + Rillaboom + Kartana) and even then it faces a lot of roadblocks. Notably, it can't run Bug Buzz + Giga Drain so you're either getting walled by Tapu Fini and Urshifu or Zygarde and Incineroar. Furthermore, I don't think any item other HDB has seen any usage (or is viable) due to the presence of Stealth Rocks. Volcarona saw a lot of success during Invitationals (think: Dragapult + Volcarona set-up spam by shrop) but recent metagame shifts have been quite unkind to it. Porygon2 Semiroom (usually with Diancie/Volcaion) is a rough matchup, and it struggles to find turns to set-up against the fast paced Psychic Spam that has multiple strong set-up moves as well as Pokemon that directly matchup very well against it (for example Heatran and Meteor Beam Necrozma). It can sometimes win games, but they are far in-between at the current time and therefore doesn't deserve to rise. I would honestly nominate it down to Tier 4 before up to Tier 2. SMB and Yoda put it well why they were hesitent for it to rise to Tier 3, so I'll leave that below as well.

SMB: 1-2 months ago or so I’d have said yes. The sweeping potential is always there but volcanion and heatran are getting way more usage, same with spread moves and trick room. Honestly both options are fine for me. Looking at what we have in both tiers ig i’m going to say tier 3.

Yoda2798: 4. I love Volcarona but I don’t think there’s been enough recently to justify a rise to tier 3. It only had 4 uses in DPL, in line with other tier 4 Pokemon, recent setup teams have stuck to dancers of the physical variety. There’s also a number of top Pokemon it struggles with (especially Diancie), so I wouldn’t rise this without evidence backing it.

I don't have a super strong opinion on Lurantis, but it probably deserves Tier 5. 1 use in DPL and 0 since Top 8 of Seasonals. It anyone wants to chime in and defend it I would appreciate the perspective.

I've heard some discussion on Landorus-Therian potentially deserving to move down to Tier 3, so if you're one of those people I would urge you to nominate it down to get discussion going. I'm not exactly opposed to it, but I don't feel confident enough in it moving down so I'd rather let someone else do it.

 

[|Powerman|]

I've heard some discussion on Landorus-Therian potentially deserving to move down to Tier 3, so if you're one of those people I would urge you to nominate it down to get discussion going. I'm not exactly opposed to it, but I don't feel confident enough in it moving down so I'd rather let someone else do it.

I agree nominating it down to Tier 3 due to the fact that there is a lot of things hindering it. One, it straight up looses to Kyurem-B and Tapu Fini and struggles against Rillaboom, considering that a team usually can carry at least 1 of these Pokemon if not more it struggles to do too much besides getting rocks up a/o Pivoting out. It faces heavy competition from Incin (Smash) due to it being able to at least check Rillaboom, and having a great piovt move in Parting Shot which even goes through sub, and with ice moves from Pokmeon such as Genesect, and Mew, which its supposedly should check, and our Tigre friend has been having it rough.

 

[SMB]

2 -> 4

Hey look it's me with my third attempt to remove landorus-therian from tier 2 since wcup.

Reasons are the same I've always said, I'll explain them a bit more this time:

- Intimidate isn't as valuable or needed on teams as it was in other gens. In this metagame landorus wants to intimidate 4 offensive mons which are kartana, urshifu, kyurem-black and zygarde. 2 of them, urshifu and kartana (with good sets), ignore intimidate. Intimidating kyurem-black with landorus is not worth for obvious reasons. So we have 1 mon left that is worth to intimidate, zygarde, which depending on the set, spreads and how well supported dd zygarde is, might cause some annoying 50-50s that could end up with zygarde out of control. And at this point I wonder, is it worth to use landorus over something like scrafty? Which is as good as landorus at checking zygarde, is a way better kyurem-black check and provides fake out to a team. The answer to this question might be "well, landorus provides hazards" which is the next point.

- Just as intimidate, hazards aren't as good as they were before. The metagame is constantly evolving into a more offensive one, where hazards are not as valuable and lando dies turn 1 just for the sake of setting rocks many times, or doesn't even find an opportunity to set them. You just have to see the new archetypes that are popular atm. If you pretend to set sr with lando vs these new archetypes, you're accepting playing 5 vs 6.

- Overall excessive passivity. This point is related to the others, if intimidate and sr are not good, what's left? A mon with an average speed tier with common weaknesses that clicks earth power and uturn. Is this really what a mon in tier 2 should do?

Just to prove my points I took every replay of the current dlt playoffs featuring a landorus-therian:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1332877407 it clicks u-turn once and dies to a mon with a x4 ground weakness

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1331036236 intimidates urshifu and kyurem to avoid a ohko on zeraora that ends up with zeraora dying anyway and lando taking 70% from icy wind. Surging strikes on the zeroara slot would have killed both mons with fespy losing nothing. Some turns after, it "intimidates" kartana and clicks uturn, turn finishes with what seems to be a scope lens kartana ohkoing tapu fini with a crit.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1332912364 does nothing the whole game, can't switch to a dd kyub or try to kill heatran

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1337486658-sqqvx25x8nqxcd1eft5spvbt82yedbypw does nothing again

This isn't something something new, this is a trend that has been happening for months. Landorus-therian is not good. Hopefully this reasoning will help to put it, finally, on its right place.


2 -> 3

Gets overwhelmed in many matchups. The ways to check it are pretty easy to fit on teams. It's very good at what it does but that's it.

3 -> 2

When writing this I was wondering if this was the most popular fire type rn but it seems incineroar takes this place.

| 4 | Incineroar | 14 | 31.82% | 35.71% |
| 7 | Heatran | 13 | 29.55% | 61.54% |
| 9 | Volcanion | 10 | 22.73% | 60.00% |

(dlt top 16 usages)

Honestly, as usage stats reflect, I don't feel like heatran is worse than incineroar and volcanion so it probably should be in tier 2 with them. It's really easy to fit on teams, and with decent speed control is really threatening. It's not as one dimensional as some people might think. I've been experimenting with it on dlt and it has some good and unexplored options. Scarf, flash cannon (very good), nature power, taunt or chople berry are all valid options for it.

3 -> 4

Just supporting the previous reasonings stated before, I had some doubts about it on the previous voting about this being tier 3 or 4 but now I'm pretty sure it should be 4. Spread moves, heatran or semiroom are too common.

4 -> 5 or UR

Cm doesn't win games, easy to check. There are better options for trick room setters.

4 -> 5

Lack of intimidate is bad for it. There are usually better options for both semiroom and trick room builds. There are so many good grass types that very often lurantis doesn't find its place on any build.

UR -> 5

I think the metagame really benefits it. I've been using it a lot lately. Really good at checking both psyspam and grass types. Main downsides are that it requires some support to make it work since it needs time to gain some boosts and has 4-moveslot syndrome (a dark type move and protect are a must, then there are many moves you'd like to use, a flying type move, agility, nasty plot, taunt, sub...).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1336891663-848yz7x52jskhcagcwl3xmoyob15ga5pw



Some stuff I'm not too sure about is 2 -> 3 and 2 -> 3. I'd like to encourage some discussion and read what people think about these 2 mons before making a formal nom.

 

[Actuarily]

4 -> 5
Priority blocking these days is generally done by one of the two good psychic terrain mons in the tier, and I think using an offensive grass that isn't kartana or rillaboom is a pretty decent detriment in the current meta. nice for the few times you want prio blocking without terrain overriding and soft checks zyg but I'm not sold that this is enough to keep it tier 4.

Disagree with this portion. Tsareena enables so many offensive archetypes/Pokémon in a much better way than psychic terrain setters do. You mentioned how terrain overriding is a huge problem for psychic terrain, but also it’s important to remember tsareena’s ability also protects non-grounded Pokémon. The role compression that tsareena provides by being one of the best checks to both Zygarde and Amoonguss while also filling the physical grass type role means it’s never deadweight. There’s a lot of good grass types so it doesn’t fit every team, but Tsareena is definitely at least tier 4. (I nearly made this same post when Emma nominated it down from 3 to 4, to me it’s tier 3.)

 

[emma]

My personal Viability Rankings can be found here. I'm going to do formal nominations for every change I had for Tier 3 mons and above, since I think viability drops off super hard after that.

Personal VR

Drops

Tapu Fini (Tier 1 --> Tier 2)

Mew (Tier 2 --> Tier 3)

Incineroar (Tier 2 --> Tier 3)
I covered these three in-depth in my last VR nomination, so I'll just quickly add some new things.

Tapu Fini folds against the very popular (and good) Rillaboom + Kartana cores, and honestly I think the support set might be the best at the moment because you need to be able to switch in-and-out to reset terrain against Necrozma / Amoonguss / etc, which hinders the viability of Calm Mind.

SMB covered why hazards aren't great at the moment here, while zeefable added on why Mew should drop here. Hazard-stacking is no longer a thing, Mew + Zygarde archetypes are not good, and there are way better Tailwind (Kartana, Zapdos) and Fake Out (Rillaboom, Blastoise) to use instead. Offensive Mew with Tailwind sounds kind of cool in theory but I haven't seen one in forever.

Lastly, Incineroar is the worse Fire-type out of itself / Heatran / Volcanion and I swear to you it doesn't actually check anything. Necrozma blows it up with +1 Meteor Beam / Earth Power, Urshifu plows through it and ignores Intimidate, Kartana still does 40% with -1 Sacred Sword while Leaf Blade crits through Intimidate drops 50% of the time, and you obviously can't reliably check Zygarde. It matches up well into Dragapult and Kyurem-Black but that's really it.

I am fine with Tapu Fini staying in Tier 1, but Mew and Incineroar really need to drop.

SMB explained well why these next few drops should happen here, so again I'll just briefly add my thoughts.

Landorus-Therian (Tier 2 --> Tier 3 / Tier 4)
Intimidate is mostly useless against everything but Zygarde (except if it already has Substitute up which isn't too hard) and it's hard / not worth it to set Stealth Rocks in the current offensive metagame.

Porygon2 (Tier 2 --> Tier 3)
Porygon2 can no longer sit on the field for multiple turns and never die. Urshifu-R / Kartana / Necrozma (in Psychic Terrain) all blow it up and are more popular than ever. It's forced into Recovering way too often and if its clicking Recover then it's not doing anything. It's really good into Zygarde and still a reliable Trick Room setter, but the metagame is now a lot more offensive and powerful which Porygon2 can't handle as well

Volcarona (Tier 3 --> Tier 4)
Nobody uses this Pokemon and it's worse than all of Incineroar / Heatran / Volcanion. Hard to set-up (similar how its hard to set hazards) when dealing with the offensive onslaught of Urshifu-R / Zygarde / Diancie etc. I gave my thoughts while Volcarona definitely does not deserve Tier 2 here, and now I would like to nominate it down to Tier 4.

Rises

Kartana (Tier 2 --> Tier 1)
Kartana is broken 50% of the time and still very good the other half. Leaf Blade being boosted from Grassy Terrain and critting makes it ridiculously powerful and means nothing is really checking it besides Dragapult and Zapdos. Other Grass resists such as Rillaboom and Amoonguss do little back (Rillaboom powers up Leaf Blade; Amoonguss can't redirect or Spore) while Heatran and Kyurem-Black get 2HKO'd by coverage. I touched on Kartana a bit more here. Kartana Tier 1.
Replays: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Necrozma (Tier 3 --> Tier 2)
Time for another rise. +1 Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain ridiculously powerful and there are very few reliable checks (hint: just relying on changing terrain is not enough). Meteor Beam / Earth Power nukes common resists such as Incineroar / Heatran and destroys some other very common Pokemon such as Kyurem-Black and Volcanion. Both my version and Actuarily's keep on winning in DLT. Until people figure out how to stop it, it deserves Tier 2.
Replays: 1, 2, 3, 4

Heatran (Tier 3 --> Tier 2)
I was on the fence if Heatran deserved a rise last time, but I'm a lot more confident now. It fits on offensive teams a lot better than Volcanion due to its speed tier and typing, and still useful on Semiroom archetypes are your Fire-type of choice. It's definitely in the same tier as as the other Fire-types (and better than Incineroar; at the absolute worst just as good) so it easily deserves Tier 3 in my opinion.
Replays: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Zapdos (Tier 3 --> Tier 2)
Also due for another rise. Best Electric-type and second best Tailwind setter in the tier. One of the few reliable checks to Kartana and Urshifu, and also matches well into other metagame threats. Getting momentum with Volt Switch is super epic to break in your offensive threats. I think other items such as Sitrus Berry, Rocky Helmet, and Safety Goggles can be used with Stealth Rocks disappearing. Also epic on Rain. With Kartana and Urshifu being more popular than ever and Speed Control often deciding games, Zapdos deserves to continue to climb up the VR.
Replays: 1, 2, 3, 4

Tyranitar (Tier 4 --> Tier 3)
Great into Necrozma, Zapdos, Kyurem-Black, Dragapult, and Heatran. AV sets can avoid 2HKO from Necrozma's +1 Earth Power and fire back with STAB Crunch / Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave. Takes nothing from Zapdos / Kyurem-Black / Dragapult / Heatran and can 2HKO back with Rock STAB or effectively OHKO with Thunder Wave. Ice Beams Zygarde so you're not even set-up bait. Lives Kartana Sacred Sword and permanently cripples with Thunder Wave. I would comfortably use this Pokemon over everything in my Tier 4 besides potentially Tsareena and Scrafty. This one's more theory but I'm totally onboard the Tyranitar hype train.

Indeedee-F (Tier 4 --> Tier 3)
This Pokemon is probably just as good as Tapu Lele so they should be in the same rank. You trade Taunt and actually doing damage for Follow Me / Helping Hand / epic Ally Switch. I don't think Tapu Lele or Indeedee-F are particularly good, but Psychic Terrain enables great Pokemon in Necrozma and Amoonguss.

Dragapult (stay in Tier 2)
The Choice Specs set is so epic. Current Ghost resists are Incineroar and Porygon2 (two Tier 3 mons) making it hard to constantly switch into. Draco Meteor is super strong and Flamethrower destroys Kartana. It's the second fastest Pokemon in the metagame and puts on immediate pressure on threats like Zygarde / Kartana / Urshifu which is super important since you can only really check them offensively. Infiltrator even lets it ignore Zygarde's Substitute. Dragon Dance set is cool too. Definitely Tier 2 to me.

Lower Tier Changes

I assume there will just be a voting sheet for lower tiers again so I'll just write out the changes I would make to Tiers 4 / 5.

All these Pokemon see minimal or zero usage and should be dropped:

Cresselia (Tier 4 --> Tier 5 / Unranked)

Landorus-I (Tier 4 --> Tier 5)

Lurantis (Tier 4 --> Tier 5 / Unranked)

Aegislash (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Celesteela (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Excadrill (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Hatterene (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Suicune (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Torkoal (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Tornadus (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

Whimsciott (Tier 5 --> Unranked)

I would rank all the following Pokemon since I think they all could be cool in theory. Unfortunately, I don't have replays for most of them since it's basically all theory but I would still use all of these Pokemon over basically all of Tier 5.

Still really good into Amoonguss / Tapu Lele structures. If we rank Aegislash but not Escavalier I will cry.

Psychic / Ice / Fire Coverage with Tailwind as well as outspeeding Urshifu / Zygarde / Kartana is so epic. Resisting Psychic is really good.

It's seen some usage in DLT Playoffs and looks cool. Dark + Flying is a great STAB combination. Psychic immunity.

Fastest Pokemon in the tier, epic Dragon / Poison / Fire coverage, access to Spikes/TSpikes/Tailwind, Choice Scarf is cool.

Fast, Dark-type, Fur Coat, Fake Out / Taunt / Icy Wind / Snarl / Knock Off / Foul Play / Parting Shot. Psychic immunity.

Dragon / Flying typing is good into Zygarde / Kartana / Urshifu. Tailwind is reliable speed control, has nice coverage (Draco / Air Slash / Flamethrower), Roost keeps it healthy. Helmet Salamence is the future.

 

[Actuarily]

Tier 5 -> 3.

In a meta where offensive pressure is the name of the game, Zapdos-g does it as well as any Pokémon. Fighting/Flying stab is fantastic, able to beat so many of the top threats like Urshifu, Kartana, Rillaboom, Kyurem-B, etc. It also pairs offensively extremely well with many of the top Pokémon such as Diancie, Zygarde, Kyurem-b, Tapu Fini.

It obviously has competition from the main fighting type in the tier, Urshifu. However it’s grass resistance and better speed tier makes zapdos-g a better fit for some teams. Also it’s honestly as good as a check on fire types as Urshifu is, the main fire types lose to flying/fighting stab except for Volcanion, who Urshifu also can’t hit with water moves. People have overstated the disappearance of intimidate - Incineroar is near the top of usage stats on both the ladder and in tours.

Choice Scarf is definitely the most popular set, however with its solid speed tier Choice Band and Life Orb are also viable, especially since those items can get Zapdos-g to OHKO Pokémon like Porygon2 and AV Kyu-b.

 

[GenOne]

I debated whether I should post this but I'm going for it. Registeel UR --> Tier 4.



Registeel has always been capable of being a defensive wall, with respectable 80 hp/150 def/150 spd base stats and the ability to boost its bulk through Iron Defense and Amnesia respectively.

The problem with this in previous generations is that Registeel had a pathetic offensive presence, with its best attack probably being Seismic Toss.

SS changed things. Registeel gains access to Body Press now, which actually rewards Registeel for setting up its defenses by also giving it absurdly strong Fighting-type coverage.

The basic premise behind Registeel on a team is to use it in place of another bulky steel type (most typically Metagross or Ferrothorn, imo) as a defensive wincon that can also apply offensive pressure as it sets up. Your main priority is to set up Iron Defense so you can up your offensive pressure while also making Registeel harder to take down. Amnesia goes a LONG way towards beating special-attacking threats such as Heatran and Volcanion, although Toxic also works on the right team as a way to hit Ghost-types and opposing stall wincons.

A typical Registeel build will look something like this:

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia/Toxic
- Protect

Registeel relies heavily on Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain to heal as it increasingly boosts its defenses. So counterplay options like opposing terrain and the use of Knock Off can make it easy enough to chip Registeel down over time. Urshifu-R can bypass the Iron Defense boosts with Surging Strikes, and Kartana can bypass the Iron Defense boosts with Sacred Sword, so those are things to be wary of. But without the right checks in place, Registeel can be a potent wincon that reverses matchups.

Here is a team construction where I've found Registeel to be a potent threat:

I'm not the best player and I know it, but here are a couple replays where I think I at least illustrate what Registeel can do in a game that isn't cradily sand:

• [Gen 8] Doubles OU replay: emma ❤ vs. GenOne - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
• [Gen 8] Doubles OU replay: Aaron Pang vs. GenOne - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

Keep it UR if you want but I do think Registeel is one of the few mons in this HO meta that has potential to thrive as a defensive wincon.

 

[emma]

Urshifu Rapid Strike: Tier 2 --> Tier 1

Urshifu-R is the most oppressive Pokemon in the tier. There is no defensive counterplay for it. Tapu Fini never gets a chance to set up, and is constantly worn down by Zygarde / Heatran / Urshifu spamming powerful attacks. This is before mentioning getting invalidated by the 'Grass Spam' combination of Rillaboom and Kartana, as well as not faring well against the common Electric-type. Amoonguss struggles to make progress against three Spore & Rage Powder immunities (Rillaboom, Kartana, Safety Goggles Heatran) and like Tapu Fini, gets worn down pretty easily. Additionally, the best Amoonguss teams, a variation of Necrozma Psychic Spam, matches up not-so-great against typical Z Strats HO due to Choice Band Zygarde, Rillaboom, Taunt Zeraora or Tailwind Zapdos, and Tailwind Kartana. While Amoonguss is still a good Pokemon on Necrozma structures, it is not reliable Urshifu-R defensive counterplay.

This has led to the metagame adapting to hyper offense spam, since that is the only way to check Urshifu-R and friends. There were a lot of good posts in the discussion threads that do a good job reflecting at why Urshifu-R is the most limiting Pokemon in the tier and deserves Tier 1 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). I would also support a Urshifu-R suspect ASAP so it can be finished before OSDT starts, and might make a more in-depth post later. Even if we don't move through with said suspect, the least we can do is accurately reflect its place in the metagame by moving it up to Tier 1.

There are little drawbacks to using Urshifu-R (38% usage in DLT Playoffs - 29 uses, tied for 3rd most // 39% usage in Seasonals thus far - 226 uses, 3rd most) and in my opinion, is the main culprit of hyper offense being the only structure worth using if you want to consistently win. I already nominated Kartana to Tier 1, I think Urshifu-R should join it, and heck even Zygarde probably deserves Tier 1 too, but I'll leave that one to someone who feels more confident.

Latias: UR --> Tier 5

As long as the trio of Urshifu / Kartana / Zygarde is legal, which forces you to either run some combination of the best ten Pokemon, or something that beats the best ten Pokemon, Latias (and probably Latios) will have a niche. Similar to Dragapult, you outspeed and OHKO the three biggest threats in the tier (Psychic, Ice Beam, Mystical Fire); what sets it apart from Dragapult is access to fast Tailwind and a resistance to Psychic. As you might have noticed, in Hyper Offense mirrors, gaining momentum is critical and usually decides who wins (I'd like to expand on this with a post in the np thread once Gothitelle is done), and fast Tailwind is excellent at doing just that.

As you can see in this BLT replay, Latias sets up Tailwind twice, kills Kartana, kills Urshifu, kills Zygarde, and does 65% to Zeraora. Simply by replacing Kartana with Latias, Crunchman gains an insane matchup advantage in the mirror and is able to ride it to a victory.

I have only experimented with Latias, but Latios is probably just as good, and most likely better at running a 3 attacks + Tailwind set with Life Orb.

Lati@s deserves to be ranked because it has actually has a legitimate niche in the current metagame as it matches up well into the only playstyle thats worth consistently using if you want to win games. I would easily use these two over every Tier 5 Pokemon beside Kommo-o and Galar Zapdos, as well as plenty of Tier 4 Pokemon (Cresselia, Spectrier, Lurantis, etc.).

------------------------

On a side note, can we please update the VR soon? A major tournament (DLT Playoffs) just ended, it's been over a month and a half since the last update, there are about ~17 nominations involving Tier 3 or higher (and more lower tier changes that probably just uses a voting sheet), and the biggest Smogon Doubles tournament ever is coming up very soon. Sample Teams and Viability Rankings are the two resources new players look to the most, and not having resources updated (Landorus-T is a full tier ahead of Heatran for example) really pushes away new players trying to learn.

I understand Paraplegic's laptop is broken and he can't do it himself, which is totally okay of course!, but I hope either one of the Tier Leaders or another member of the VR council takes initiative so we can have an updated VR in time for Official Smogon Doubles Tournament. I would even be willing to organize the process myself, just like how I did for RBY OU VR, but I am obviously not the number one choice since I have no authority regarding the VR or Doubles as a whole.

Another issue is lack of voters (we have 6 currently and qsns and shrop will likely abstain once more), so I figured I would also give some suggestions for new VR council members.

umbry -- DOU Council, 7-4 in SSD IV, still actively playing even though she doesn't play in circuit tours
Nido-Rus -- Winter Seasonal Champion, drafted in SSD IV, tied for #2 on the 2021 circuit, trusted PS authority and member of the community
Z Strats -- Had a chance before and stepped down, but if he promises not to be an idiot again he can be a good addition. Drafted in SSD IV, built two defining teams since DLC2 dropped, obviously a very strong player.
The_Bandit -- #1 on 2021 circuit, VR experience in DUU
JRL -- Drafted in SSD IV, tied for #2 on the 2021 circuit, likes the :jeje: emoji

This list obviously isn't perfect, but hopefully gives people in charge an idea of who they can add so we actually have enough voters to do a new slate.

While there are immediate issues halting a new round of VR voting, I'm confident if we work together we can get past it and have an updated VR before OSDT starts

 

[Darkmalice]

Ribombee: UR --> Level 4.

It's primary function is to set up Sticky Web. Webs is so strong in this metagame to the point that literally running Ribombee just to set up Sticky Webs and then die like a suicide lead is worthwhile against many teams. This metagame is highly grounded, and many teams have all 6 Pokemon that dislike Webs. TR users and Gyro Ball users are on the decline, and grounded Defiant/Competitive/Contrary users and Defog are rare. Very few Pokemon have >109 base speed in this metagame (only Dragapult, Zerorara and Spectrier do that are ranked), and those that aren't are outpaced by much of the metagame under Webs. Even Incineroar can outspeed -1 Kartana (requires Jolly nature). The passive loss in Speed makes it much more difficult to maintain board control, and this is very costly for the current offensive teams that dominate the metagame. This replay highlights it well; I sack Ribombee to set up Webs first turn, which enables me to more easily control the board. However, it affects so much of the metagame, that its useful against many other teams too, which is partially why I am nominating for Tier 4, as opposed to Latias for Tier 5 which is consider a tech against HO but is not considered very useful outside that match-up.

It is very difficult to stop Ribombee from setting up Webs. It can't be flinched and naturally outspeeds most of the metagame. There is no standard set since Ribombee is not meta, though this is the set I generally recommend:

Ribombee @ Focus Sash
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Tailwind
- Moonblast
- Pollen Puff

I feel that Sash provides the most consistency at getting webs up (it is very consistent). But You can run Mental Herb or Sitrus Berry with 112 HP / 144 SpA / 252 Spe (with the option of less Spe EVs) to game in tourney matches like if you predict a Taunt Zeroara (Z Strats HO team) or Scarf Urshifu (HO Necrozma team), which effectively renders both teams incapable of stopping a turn 1 Web. The Z Strats version is reliant on Taunt Zerora to stop it, with some variations of this team not having that option.

In addition to that, it has a faster Tailwind than Kartana, which can counteract your opponent using their Tailwind to circumvent the Web Speed drop, in addition to the usual benefits of Tailwind. 144 SpA EVs lets you OHKO Urshifu with Moonblast which is currently hot meta, and Ribombee also checks another big meta threat in Zygarde (CB Zygarde Thousand Arrows doesn't 2HKO since Ribombee is one of the few Pokemon that actually resists that move). It also checks Kartana by outpacing it for the Tailwind and 2HKOing with Pollen Puff, which doubles up as a fast Heal Pulse. This gives Ribombee use after Webs is used or when setting up Webs isn't practical. Honestly I only felt it was dead weight against full room teams, in which I generally just sacked it, but these teams are not difficult and struggle in this current metagame.

Though Ribombee isn't meta, there have been three (four) different teams posted with it thus far with decent diversity, highlighting that it can fit on a variety of teams. It also functions well as the 6th member in Z strats team instead of Zeroara/Zapdos/Latias, helping keep up the offensive pressure with Sticky Web / Tailwind whilst checking some of the threats to the team with Moonblast (Dragon-types, G-Zapdos, Buzzwole).

Also here's another replay. against a relatively stereotypical HO team. Though I made an error on team preview (assumed the opponent did not have TR) and turn 5 from the opponent (not using Eruption / Heat Wave cost him this match), it highlights the Bee's use from Turn 6 onwards after a Turn 1 Webs.

 

[SMB]

since a vr update is happening soon (tm) para told me to make noms if i wanted vr council to vote on some currently UR mons

UR -> 5 or 4

very good on offense teams; fast tailwind, ohkos zygarde, urshifu, kyurem, kartana, bulkless tapu lele, favourable mu vs fini, rillaboom, volcanion...
modest or scarf sets also have snowballing potential
can't touch heatran and generally has a bad mu against psyspam but having a fast tailwind makes it useful sometimes even with a bad mu

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1353667732

UR -> 5

good mon for balance and set up teams that need both speed control and redirection. Excellent follow me user since it resists every kartana and rillaboom common moves, also lives any urshifu hit and almost ohkos back, can run fire type coverage to threaten kartana, naturally faster than heatran so it can tw before it attacks or just flinch it...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1360024417-cpumn2czmkb9o4sixj8xqpxtkios2xbpw

UR -> 5

great checking offense good stuffs since most of these teams run at least 4 of rillaboom, kartana, kyub, urshifu, zygarde, zeraora. Also naturally faster than heatran and ohkos it
Lack of intimidate on teams really benefits it, and doesn't really need speed control to work although it appreciates it in order to be way more threatening
Pretty bad psyspam mu

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1354402147

 

[Meminger21]

I'd like to nominate 3 mons that nobody talked about in this thread yet

3 -> 2

Zeraora is the fastest pokemon in the tier, having Fake Out, Plasma Fists, Electroweb, Knock Off, Taunt, Close Combat, Coaching and even Play Rough. Gaining momentum and setting TW can win plenty of matches, mainly in mirror matches and Zeraora is the best to do so, using Fake Out.

5 -> 3

There's been some talk about some dragon-types and their power against the core Water/Grass/Fire and imo Kommo-o outshines among others. He's good against Grass spam, Urshifu, Heatran and Zygarde, having two decent sets: Iron Defense and Clangorous Soul. Nowadays, one of the best teams is probably Z Strats offense that basically can't touch Kommo-o ID. Not only that, Kommo-o is immune to Spore due to Overcoat and learns stab Body Press.

2 -> 3

In a metagame with grass spam, Urshifu, Zygarde and Tapu Fini the rock types don't have the same space as before, also Heatran is (probably) the best fire-type and doesn't take super-effective from Diamond Storm requiring the use of Body Press to KO it, losing momentum and TR turns. Her fairy-type doesn't help her either, Moonblast and Play Rough are too weak since Diancie has 100/100 of attack and sp. attack, not being able to threaten the dragon mons.

(Stay in Tier 2)

Mew is the most flexible pokemon in the tier, having almost all the attacks of the game. The Tailwind one is the most used, also having Fake Out. Everyone that talked about Mew pointed out that it is bad because hazards aren't great in the metagame now, but Mew is different from the other hazard setters, when you see the preview of the teams and see Mew you just don't know what it is, it can indeed be a hazard setter, but can also be support with Pollen Puff, Scarf or Expert Belt. Actually, with some investment in sp. attack and Expert Belt he can KO Zygarde with Ice Beam, Heatran with Earth Power, Urshifu with Psychic, Kartana and Genesect with Flamethrower and 2HKO many other mons. Also Mew's typing makes it weak only to Dark and Ghost while having a decent bulky. Mew is obviously not very strong but with the right EVs and moves it can help many of his teammates, damaging really hard some specific mons and using speed control so the rest of the team can end the game.

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

gonna give some quick blurbs on a ton of mons, most of which im sure have already been mentioned.

Rises

2 -> 1
incredibly strong with grassy terrain and scope lens, offers 109 base speed tailwind for teammates that it cant kill on its own.

2 -> dubers 1
absurdly strong. 2-3hkos every check it has, ignores protect, auto crits, theres a whole suspect thread of reasons.

3 -> 2
best fire type in the tier, charcoal eruption is brutally powerful, speed tier lets it fit on both tailwind and trick room teams, its quite oppressive.

3 -> 2
meteor beam gives it an insane nuke option that boosts terrain expanding force to even higher levels. can opt to drop trick room for earth power or heat wave an attempt to bypass steel or dark type checks.

5 -> 4
underrated setup threat, needs significant support to work though.

5 -> 4
has grassy glide resist and 3 more base speed over urshifu, but needs cb or mu into badmons landorus and incin to do any damage.

UR -> 4 / 5
incredible coverage that lets it be aggressive while setting tailwind for allies before things like kartana and zapdos. 2hkos zygarde uninvested and only needs 84 evs to ohko urshifu with psychic.

UR -> 4 / 5
recent discovery, fastest unboosted tailwind in the tier and sets webs to win offence mirrors. resists ground, heals allies, and threatens several notable pokemon

Drops

1 -> 2
has a hard time setting up and gets worn down very easily by things its supposed to check like urshifu zygarde dragapult, and heatran. terrain is still incredibly useful but fini itself prefers to be in grassy anyways.

2 -> 3
the support toise offers is exceptional, but theres only so much it can take before its getting overwhelmed. most teams have lots of spread damage now anyways, and toise usually only gets 2-3 times to click follow me a game. otherwise its being forced out by a potential switch in and kills a lot of momentum.

2 -> 3
has a hard time setting trick room versus offensive, and wants all of diamond storm body press moonblast and trick room, however dropping protect limits its staying power a considerably.

2 -> 4
rocks have minimal use atm, 50% of the time the only thing getting intimidated is zygarde, and its a worse ground type than zygarde on the large majority of teams.

2 -> 3
only clicks parting shot or fake out when u can afford to keep incin on he field for more than 1 turn. one thing of note is its really good on webs offence as it can actually attack and pivots faster on things that would threaten it otherwise.

2 -> 3
sadly, mews swiss army knife of utility isnt the most effective in the current state, one of the slower tailwind users currently, better fake out users available, and pollen puff just isn’t as good anymore. suffers from 4mss more than any other pokemon i feel. offensive sets feel extremely underwhelming as well.

2 -> 3
p2 cannot stick around as long as it used to thanks to urshifu and friends. its forced to recover more often than not, and is a huge momentum drain.

4 -> 5 / UR
i haven’t seen this be successful since pre-DPL, i just don’t see it being good without being ignored for at least 3 turns.

4 -> 5 / UR
worse than politoed, only reason to rank it is wide guard, or tailwind

T5 stuff
everything not mentioned besides kommo-o gapdos and whimsicott should be UR. ive never seen anything be useful, and would sooner pick from a list of UR mons.

 

[GenOne]

2 -> UR

 

[Paraplegic]

Hey everyone, vr update time!!! First, we have some new additions to the council in Actuarily, emma, and Nido-Rus . They will be filling in the void that we had on the vr council with their unique meta takes and positions and we are happy to have them all aboard. MajorBowman participated in the low tier sweep but abstained from voting on the actual slate this time around.

Blastoise Tier 2 →Tier 1

votes

SMB: tier 3, struggles a lot on the offense mu because of the grass type and spread attacks that are common on these teams. Although it can be useful, it’s not really needed on set up teams either. Water type that doesn’t really check urshifu or fire types is pretty bad rn.

Actuarily: tier 3, while fake out + redirection is great, every team just leads a grass type (or Zera) + spread attacker against Blastoise, and then it becomes difficult to re-position alongside the set up Pokémon.

emma: 3. This was a nomination down I was planning to make for the next slate. Blastoise gets overwhelmed easily by offense (especially Rillaboom + Kartana as well as strong spread moves from Heatran and Kartana), and is a huge momentum drain overall.

Yoda2798: 3. Grass spam and strong spread attackers being so common really hurts Blastoise.

Nido: 3, as mentioned above grass spam is strong and common, and the general prevalence of spread moves and fast offense makes setup harder to run. Still solid enough for 3 though.

Paraplegic: 3. Others said it well but toise is just worse into this meta than it was into the previous one.

Kartana Tier 2 →Tier 1

votes

SMB: tier 1, arguably the hardest mon to check on the tier. Pretty good offensive typing, intimidating isn’t worth 50% of the times, solid speed control…

Actuarily: Tier 1. Nothing else combines fast TW and offensive pressure like Kart. Once it gets one KO it is a PROBLEM.

emma: 1. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 1. Quick, strong, and fast Tailwind is the cherry on top. Clearly one of the best Pokemon right now.

Nido: 1, the face of offense right now with tailwind utility, solid offensive pressure with free 50% crit rate, great speed tier, and good defensive typing.

Paraplegic: 1. Kart is probably the best mon in the tier rn imo.

Urshifu-R Tier 2 →Tier 1

votes

SMB: tier 2, big offensive threat but easy to check offensively and with many downsides when clicking the wrong move. It’s far from being useful on any game as a tier 1 mon should be.

Actuarily: tier 2, too many popular Pokémon check it. If it gets positioned in TW it’s an absolute force, but even then it’s often choice locked.

emma: 1. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 1. Immense offensive threat, especially with easily provided Tailwind support, but still great without it. There’s good reason why it’s been topping usage stats alongside Rillaboom and Kartana.

Nido: Tier 2, very strong but pretty one-dimensional in what it does. Makes big holes in opposing teams when it has momentum but often one of the first options to be sacked to preserve other mons with more utility.

Paraplegic: 2. Rilla is obviously very scary to stare down but its a mon that needs to be supported to really shine, rather than enabling other mons while also shining normally in its own right like I view the other tier 1 mons to do.

Kyurem-Black Tier 1 →Tier 2

votes

SMB: tier 1, chople berry makes dd set really threatening for any team. AV set is not as splashable as before but it’s still good.

Actuarily: Tier 1. AV is very splashable and completely controls the board while it’s on the field. DD set is extremely dangerous.

emma: 1 for now. Responded with why I didn’t think it should drop two months ago in the thread, but with the continued rise of Urshifu-R and friends it is slowly losing its grip on the metagame. Don’t think the Assault Vest can check half the metagame anymore, and Dragon Dance is forced to give up its item slot (although the set is still good). Still Tier 1 for now, but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Tier 2 post-OSDT.

Yoda2798: I’ll say 2 though I’m not certain about it. Like Tapu Fini, the meta has shifted to the point where it isn’t as dominant as it once was. Kyurem-Black’s obviously still good, but it’s not as easy to just slap it on a team and dominate like before. I don’t think it’s been performing to a Tier 1 level as of late.

Nido: Tier 1, the disappearance of SR and general decrease in intimidate in the current meta has been great for KyuB. Often the most important mon to handle in a game.

Paraplegic: 1. This mon is still unfair as shit and deserves 1 easily imo for dd chople being epic and av being good enough. Initial responses to both oftentimes need to be different and guessing wrong oftentimes ends up with things going very poorly.

Tapu Fini Tier 1 →Tier 2

votes

SMB: tier 2, it can’t win games on its own as it did before. Still a really solid defensive check for many stuff.

Actuarily: tier 2. Every team naturally has a fini check, and calm mind is hard to pull off (there’s a lot of good other sets). But the defensive versatility is amazing, checking Psyspam and a lot of the top offensive threats.

emma: 2. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 2. Calm Mind struggles to win games, the defensive utility is nice but not enough alone for 1.

Nido: Tier 2, defensive utility and terrain reset from grassy/psychic is solid, but it struggles compared to before in current fast-paced meta.

Paraplegic: 2. Breaks my heart but cm was the tier 1 set and its no longer the absolute force it was, the meta adapted. It still has other, very good sets and its super underrated currently, but not tier 1 status anymore.

Heatran Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

SMB: Yes, my nom

Actuarily: tier 2, probably the best fire type right now. There’s few things that want to switch into a heatran in TW, similar to Urshifu.

emma: 2. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 2. Fantastic spread attacker, works extremely well in Tailwind (especially due to the new mechanics).

Nido: Tier 2, best fire type right now. Strong spread is good, fits well in current offensive meta, secondary steel typing often hurts but makes it a good switchin for stuff like Dragapult or psyspam.

Paraplegic: 2. Others covered it pretty well but tran is one of the main forces in the meta rn and is very deserving of 2 currently.

Necrozma Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

SMB: tier 3, tbh i think this should be on the same tier or lower than lele since it only sees usage on psyspam and needs psychic terrain to work properly.

Actuarily: Tier 3. While it’s the defining Pokémon on Psyspam, it doesn’t see much other use, and Psyspam isn’t as good as it was, everyone is running checks now.

emma: 3, my nomination is a bit outdated at this point. Psychic Spam is past its absolute peak, but it’s still a viable form of Hyper Offense. Z Strats’s HO becoming insanely popular hurt its viability a ton.

Yoda2798: 3. Agree with SMB that it should be in the same tier as Tapu Lele, and I don’t think Psyspam is super deserving of Tier 2 right now, back during its peak, maybe, but not anymore.

Nido: Tier 3, I’d agree with tier 2 a month or two ago but psyspam is no longer the oppressive playstyle it seemed like a while back.

Paraplegic: 3. I would still ban it tho.

Zapdos Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

SMB: I don’t really have a strong opinion on whether this should be tier 2 or 3. On many offense teams there are better tailwind options than zapdos, and I don’t even think it’s the best electric type on the tier. Flying type gives it a key resistance to grass and it outspeeds urshifu but that’s pretty much it. Tier 3 i guess.

Actuarily: Tier 2. It’s a great TW setter and flying is one of the best types right now.

emma: 2. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 2. Good Tailwind setter, typing is great for common Pokemon like Rillaboom, Kartana, Urshifu.

Nido: Tier 3. Fast, bulky TW setter that beats urshifu and switches into Kartana/Rillaboom. It’s good specifically because of its role in current meta where matching/beating TW is a priority. Outside setting TW it’s often a do-nothing mon, and electric typing is pretty useless right now apart from hitting urshifu.

Paraplegic: 2. Its soooooo good into current meta, a lot of games revolve around matching tw with the opp and trading, of which it is a very key part of, and like actuarily said flying is an incredible type to have rn.

Dragapult Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: Tier 2, special life orb set is very good rn. Due to its typing it can be an emergency switch in vs many stuff and it’s really threatening because of its coverage and power.

Actuarily: Tier 3. On the fence about this one, but DD sets haven’t been seen in quite a while, and it really wants to load up into grass spam.

emma: 2. Responded with why in the thread.

Yoda2798: 2. Special sets are great into teams right now, typing allows it to switch into a lot of stuff if needed, but more importantly it outspeeds everything but Zeraora and smacks them.

Nido: Tier 2, special sets are great right now and even DD is solid loading into grass spam. If psyspam was more popular I’d be on the fence since it has a hard time dealing with stuff like indeedee or amoonguss, but given current meta I think 2 is reasonable.

Paraplegic: 2. Others covered it well, pult is very good right now.

Incineroar Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: tier 2, this mon is more useful than what people think. Best intimidate mon on the tier, can check grass types, heatran and dd kyub, can switch once to band zygarde and at least 2 times to dd sets… Fake out is always useful, good psyspam check once necrozma uses meteor beam.

Actuarily: Tier 2. Obviously Urshifu’s usage rate is bad for it, but it’s utility is still top tier.

emma: 3. My nomination. Incineroar is a fake Heatran and Necrozma check, and certainly is not checking Zygarde. Urshifu-R being as good and as popular as it is also does not help. Agree that its a key piece of Tapu Fini balance teams, but don’t think that’s enough to keep it in Tier 2.

Yoda2798: 3. Doing better as an Intimidate user than Landorus-T, but still not great. Disagree with what SMB is saying; Incineroar doesn’t check Heatran that well, is quite bad against CB Zygarde (the more common set), and even without Meteor Beam, Necrozma usually has Earth Power to hit it. Even Grass-types aren’t completely defenseless, as since Rillaboom commonly carries Superpower these days both that and Kartana can do roughly half to Incineroar even at -1. That’s all without mentioning how Urshifu will typically be partnered with the above Pokemon, making it even harder for Incineroar to check what it’s supposed to.

Nido: Tier 2, fake out, parting shot, and intimidate all in one package is very useful. Doesn’t fit on grass spam offense but pretty much holds together fini balance teams.

Paraplegic: 2. I echo smb’s thoughts on incin and really dont understand how anyone could go as far as calling it bad, let alone not acknowledging that its still incredibly useful.

Landorus-T Tier 2 →Tier 3 or 4

votes

SMB: my nom, tier 4 :partying_face:

Actuarily: Tier 4. Intimidate is good, but it just intimidates once or twice, sets rocks, and dies to the opponent’s zygarde counter.

emma: 4. My nomination. The only reason I could think of why it should only drop to 3 is “it’s Landorus-Therian” which is obviously not valid.

Yoda2798: 4. Intimidate and Stealth Rock aren’t enough, and it does nothing besides those.

Nido: Tier 4, Intimidate and Stealth Rock aren’t nearly as useful as they once were, and Lando with its passiveness really struggles to keep up with current offensive threats.

Paraplegic: 4. The king of doubles, dethroned.

Mew Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: tier 3, i think it’s pretty hard to justify mew on any team rn, tailwind sets want 3 attacks imo and to do this there are just better options with a higher speed tier. Hazards are generally not very good. Tbh I think trick room sets are better than tailwind just because of how “antimeta” that can be.

Actuarily: Tier 3. Jack of all trades, master of none.

emma: 3. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 3. There are better Tailwind setters, agree with SMB that it wants to run offensive sets to not be passive but is outclassed.

Nido: Tier 3, I think offensive sets with tailwind are still solid, but it has a hard time either giving up a coverage move or giving up fake out, not to mention the bulk it has to drop to hit offensive benchmarks. On top of all this being a TW setter that’s both slower than kartana and doesn’t resist grass (unlike zap) is rough with the new tailwind mechanics.

Paraplegic: 3. Offensive mew is a bad lati outside of the “surprise” value, and other sets just dont keep pace well with the current meta as far as i can tell.

Porygon2 Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: Yes, my nom

Actuarily: Tier 2. While it can’t stay on the field as well as it could earlier in the meta, it’s still a very reliable TR setter and bolt beam coverage is fantastic.

emma: 3. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 3. Urshifu and Kartana being everywhere leads to it getting overpowered more easily.

Nido: Tier 3, passive and suffers in current offense meta.

Paraplegic: 3. Its just worse into ho meta than it was into spectrier meta and the weird inbetween post-spectrier meta we had in dpl.

Volcarona Tier 3 →Tier 4

votes

SMB: yes, my nom

Actuarily: Tier 4. Needs to get off multiple quiver dances to hit like it wants to, and that is a tall order.

emma: 4. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 4. Never should have went up to 3 in the first place.

Nido: Tier 4, there’s just too much right now that beats it, even at +1. Zygarde is hard to deal with even with +1 bug buzz, it can’t protect against urshifu aqua jets (urshifu also switches into both heat wave and bug buz), and heatran is impossible to beat. If giga drain then it loses harder against zygarde and loses against psyspam.

Paraplegic: Im way outvoted here, but I still think it deserves 3. I think heatwave/giga drain is a very good, threatening set right now and I view it as in line in viability with everything else in tier 3.

Indeedee-F Tier 4 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: tier 4, agree with Actuarily.

Actuarily: Tier 4. As one of indeedee-f’s biggest believers, similar to Blastoise it’s very one dimensional and puts no pressure on the opponent.

emma: 4, my nomination is a bit outdated at this point. Psychic Spam isn’t as good as it was, and a passive slot into Z Strats Hyper Offense is quite bad.

Yoda2798: 4. Agree with Actuarily.

Nido: Tier 4, a fully passive slot can be a problem right now even with follow me, considering how common spread attackers like Zygarde and Heatran are.

Paraplegic: 4. Agree with everyone else.

Tyranitar Tier 4 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: tier 4 or even 5, its weaknesses are pretty common, too slow for the current meta and doesn’t accomplish anything offensively unless it has a random x4 coverage move

Actuarily: Tier 4. While changing weather, setting rocks, and e-force immunity is nice, it just has too many bad matchups.

emma: 3. My nomination.

Yoda2798: 4. Definitely too niche for 3. Cool into Psyspam, but quite bad when a single team can have Rillaboom, Kartana, and Urshifu.

Nido: Tier 4. Would’ve agreed with 3 a couple months ago but right now it has a really hard time against grass spam/urshifu/zyg.

Paraplegic: 4. Its already past its peak but its not bad by any means.

Zapdos-G Tier 5 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: Tier 4, really difficult to switch into due to its great offensive typing but it’s left exposed many times and it’s more or less easy to scout.

Actuarily: My nom.

emma: 4. Generally inferior to Urshifu-R (breaking Protect is really good), but there are definitely structures where Zapdos-G is better (i.e. when you need a Grassy Glide resist instead of weakness).

Yoda2798: 4. Worse than Urshifu, but like emma said there are times to use it because of the Flying typing. Still, I don’t think that’s often enough to be Tier 3.

Nido: Tier 4, I’m a Gapdos believer but that’s still too much of a jump with how uncommon it still is. Harder matchup into Zyg/regular zapdos along with giving heatran the safety to click protect can be rough.

Paraplegic. 5 at best lol. Still very, VERY down on this mon, I just dont get what people see in it. It only ever ends up trading 1 for 1 at best if the opponent doesnt fuck up and I just dont see how its appealing compared to other, significantly better options basically ever.

Zeraora Tier 3 →Tier 2

votes

SMB: Tier 2, best electric type on the tier, epic speed tier with lots of options to get ohkos or chip common threats (close combat, blaze kick…). If your team doesn’t have issues with dragapult it can run an adamant bulky set, which is pretty good right now and can stay around for long. Fast taunt is great too since it outspeeds every relevant tw user.

Actuarily: Tier 2. The combo of fake out + fast offense and good movepool makes it great in a lot of matchups. However it absolutely hates zygarde & Kyu-b, and struggles against intimidate.

emma: 3. Faces competition from Zapdos as your Electric-type as choice, with Zapdos being better on typical HO due to Tailwind. Support sets seem very underwhelming (need Magnet and investment or Adamant Nature to OHKO Urshifu-R for example), and usually only gets off a Fake Out. Life Orb sets I think are pretty cool, but not enough to push it up. I wouldn’t hate moving it up to Tier 2 though.

Yoda2798: 3. Zapdos is the better Electric, and this feels like a tier below that. Neither support nor offensive sets have convinced me they’re Tier 2 material yet.

Nido: Tier 2, one of the few good taunt users. Sometimes a do-nothing mon but usually compresses a ton of utility in one slot. Tbolt is better than plasma fists and coaching is underrated.

Paraplegic: 2. Zeraora is epic, it has so much utility and is the best electric in the tier

Kommo-o Tier 5 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: Tier 5, I get that it has a good mu vs some popular teams but I feel like it has too many downsides; requires support to work, fairy types are a big threat, struggles against taunt and psyspam… I’m not sure what’s’ the most popular 4th move for this but I’ve seen people running sr which means it can’t hit ghost types either.

Actuarily: Tier 4. Amazing into most Rillaboom teams, but it’s just checked so hard by Fini. Even running Rillaboom next to it doesn’t solve its Fini problem.

emma: 4. Dragon typing provides it with a lot of key resistances to Urshifu-R and Kartana, and both the Clangorous Soul and Iron Defense sets match up well into typical Hyper Offense.

Yoda2798: 4. Agree with the above. Tapu Fini dropping off makes it better, but not enough for Tier 3.

Nido: Tier 4, as said above it’s amazing into rillaboom stuff but still very iffy against psyspam or fini.

Paraplegic: 3. I get this looks sus coming from me but I stg kommo is so amazing right now. I legit think the ID set enables defensive play like nothing else in the tier currently, and the CS set is also very good into the HOs infesting the meta. One of the best set up mons with 2 different sets right now makes this better than low tier sweep worthy in my eyes.

Diancie Tier 2 →Tier 3

votes

SMB: Tier 2, it struggles setting trick room but i feel like this is one of these things that can punish bad positioning more when playing against offense and doesn’t require support to work.

Actuarily: Tier 2. It definitely struggles vs the grass spam offense teams, but often times setting TR in this matchup is enough to win. In many other matchups it’s extremely dominant.

emma: 3. Similar to Blastoise, another drop I was going to make soon. Semiroom as a structure is not very strong at all, as it's very difficult to set Trick Room multiple times per game and pivot around all the strong offensive threats. Specifically does not match up well into Urshifu-R, Kartana, or Zygarde, with the first two critting through any Defense boosts. Also can’t run both Moonblast and Body Press, so it’s either even worse against Urshifu-R and Zygarde or Kartana.

Yoda2798: 3. Like Porygon2, Diancie struggles with all the Kartana and Urshifu running around pushing it down.

Nido: Tier 3. Physical mons that can crit through defense boosts, with both needing different coverage options to beat (moonblast for urshifu vs body press for kart), and both going together pretty often and well, is a very bad time for a TR setter which often makes the crux of a semiroom team’s matchup against offense.

Paraplegic: 2. Think its the best setter in the tier rn, and while setting is harder than it used to be, the pay off is oftentimes still very worthwhile and I think diancie is easily better than everything actually in 3.

low tier sweep

Changes:

Tier 2 → Tier 3
Tier 2 → Tier 1
Tier 1 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 2 → Tier 4
Tier 2 → Tier 3
Tier 2 → Tier 3
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → UR
UR → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 4→ Tier 5
UR→ Tier 5
Tier 4 → UR
UR → Tier 5
UR → Tier 4
UR → Tier 5
UR → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
UR → Tier 5

 

[fespy]

Tier 2→ Tier 4

Lando-I was tier 2???? dafuq

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

Lando-I was tier 2???? dafuq

para is higher than Lando-I thanks to 45 mgs of edibles

 

[choicebadkyurem]

Lando-I was tier 2???? dafuq

it was lando-t

 

[Yoda2798]

2 -> 3

Volcanion struggles to find a place in the current meta, and doesn't deserve to be Tier 2 anymore. Most teams nowadays opt for Heatran as their Fire-type of choice, being a strong offensive option with Eruption, while teams with Tapu Fini obviously don't want Volcanion as well, instead using Incineroar for defensive utility. Grass spam is omnipresent, and Volcanion is a Fire-type which doesn't actually resist it, meaning it can be overpowered by Rillaboom and Kartana before it gets the chance to fire back. More generally, it's a bit slow for the pace of meta (in multiple senses) and like the semiroom teams it used to flourish on, has fell out of favour.

4 -> 5

The days of SpecToise are long gone, and there's little reason to use this over Dragapult now. Spectrier gets outsped by all Dragapult, doesn't resist Grassy Glide or other Grass/Fire-type attacks, and lacks coverage relative to Dragapult; meanwhile it struggles to find time to Nasty Plot, which is its whole raison d'etre.

5 -> UR

Celesteela hasn't seen use in forever, and is unlikely to start doing so any time soon. Like its fellow bulky-Steels-which-seem-good-but-aren't-really Ferrothorn and Aegislash, it's so unworth it in practice and has no reason to be on your team besides specifically choosing to. Especially with Registeel existing now, it doesn't even hold the niche of bulky Steel wincon.

 

[Noelle]

This is my first nomination, so sorry if i do anything wrong, but i haven't seen many people talking about these mons so i'm going to.

Tier 3 -> Tier 4

From my experience and what i can tell from watching replays, p2 really isn't very good right now, at least in my opinion. It used to be a more consistent alternative to diancie in exchange for being a little more passive. Now i feel it's very easily overwhelmed and can be either forced out or straight up ignored most games. examples?

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8doublesou-1382361396 doesn't really accomplish anything meaningful. It click tbolt a few times, sets trick room and dies.

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8doublesou-1382550137-owb20rzy2tmpv1k959r9zr0k75a58jlpw gets put to sleep as it goes for tr and then dies


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1304058856 doesn't so anything that diancie couldn't have done

To clarify my point here, i'm not saying p2 is bad because it's countered by fighting types, so because urshifu is popular it's bad. what i'm saying is it's way too passive to be considered a threat in any way. From my experience, i don't think i've ever been in a situation where p2 exerted any offensive or defensive pressure, and i feel these replays reflect that. Overall, i don't see how p2 is on par with blastoise or metagross (or even necrozma in my opinion, at least necrozma can be very threatening on psyspam) or even better than t4 mons like zapdos g or tyranitar, so it should be with said those t4 mons.

I would also like to throw in some nominations that i'm currently unnsure of. These are just here to get other people's opinions on these mons and their viability in the current meta, i'm not officially nominating any of these mons yet

Amoonguss to t3

I don't see how amoonguss is better than blastoise. amoonguss has sleep and regen, which are the main things it has over blastoise imo, but blastoise also has some things over amoonguss, such as speed control in icy wind, scald, helping hand, and roar. i personally think these mons are at least comparable and should be in the same tier. even the other t3 mons such as metagross and necrozma have just as much of a niche as amoonguss. I do want to hear what other people think about this though, maybe i'm missing something


Latias and Buzzwole to t4?

As an adamant buzzwole enjoyer, i think buzzwole is kinda underrated rn. naturally outspeeds and ohkos tran, beats zygarde with ice punch, 2hkos kyu b while eating every hit that kyu b can dish out, has a great matchup against rillaboom and kartana, and so on. It can even beat some of its checks (being able to 2hko genesect and fini with cc and poison jab respectively while not being kod by flamethrower or moonblast assuming it's assault vest with investment) it also has beast boost, meaning you can't ignore it either, or it can and will fuck you up. don't get me wrong, buzzwole has many flaws, but can we at least agree it's better than hatterene and cresselia? Latias i'm a little more unsure of, but surely we can agree it's better than fucking celesteela, right? it's a good tailwind setter, it has great bulk, and matches up well against a lot of the current meta (urshifu, kartana, zygarde, and to an extent kyu b) and while it doesnt hit as hard as its brother latios, 110 special atk is no joke. it is outclassed as zapdos in my opinion, but i still don't think it deserves to be banished to cresselia tier.

Ok that's basically it, bye

 

[pix]

Quick Thoughts

-->5 I haven't came across this mon in ages. I don't know why people will use it over Dragapult rn. It's super frail and dies to half of the mons in the meta.

-->5 I haven't seen this mon in the 50+ games I have played on the ladder. I know it provides Fake out and Intimidate but I think Incin does a better job at that.

-->4 I have been enjoying using Nihi in VGC due it's capability to KO volc, incin, rillaboom, xern and many more but when it comes to Doubles OU I feel like it's useless. It has no place in the meta where zygarde is running freely.

 

[Crunchman]

RE Kyu-B:
when i play diancie i never have trouble with kyube and when i play kyube i always have to play around the diancie. diancie just severely cripples it, can set up speed control, etc if you run iron head on kyube, it makes the diancie matchup tenfold better but also lacks against other things. (FWIW, diancie is not the most common sight to see). kyube can pick and choose its checks, but it cant hit everything. besides that, kyube can only ever target one pokemon. which is not the worst thing ever, but that just means that there is a fair amount of counterplay available (redirection, making trades, etc) which is helped by ice not being the greatest typing ever. unlike another premier threat like urshifu, kyube generally needs time to setup to be actually threatening; in that time it can get chipped, speed control can be setup, all manner of things. this isnt to say that kyube is bad. its still a very good mon at the moment and has two different sets that are both viable and not exactly countered by the same things. the av variant certainly isnt easy to switch into and the dd set can dominate games; however, its not much different from the way mons like diancie/volcanion etc are hard to switch into, and not much different from the way things like dd zygarde/dragapult/g-moltres can dominate games. in sum, kyu-b is a pretty great pokemon and definitely a threat to look out for, but it is decidedly not broken.

RE Kart:
The main thing with kart is that the ability to crit things at a high rate turns many would-be counters into just checks. EG: Zapdos, Latias, Pult i would consider to be checks, not counters; zapdos takes around 50% from a crit leaf blade in terrain, latias takes around 50%, and pult takes 60-75%. Genesect can switch in and beat kartana but it also practically gets 2hkoed by unboosted sacred sword so... yeah, and naganadel takes 30-40% from a blade crit (much better than the rest). This is also assuming kart has no attack investment (many of my karts have some attack investment). Much like Kyurem-Black, Kartana can break through many of its checks; unlike kyu-b, it can often do so immediately with a bit of luck and snowball to the point where it kills stuff without luck. Ability to set fast tailwind also means it can enable coverage of threats it might not be able to touch as cleanly. Like you pointed out, poor spdef (and a 4x weak to fire) means that there are a number of meta offensive threats to it, and that tends to hold it back. However, all it needs is proper speed control to get rolling and blow past teams' defenses.

RE Rillaboom:
Psyspam teams are the one time you may wish to eschew a rillaboom. That is all. Rain/sun sometimes as well (or fullroom? I guess?)

RE Urshifu: Urshifu is still incredibly strong (as seen in these two replays from Nido-Rus's OSDT set). People are a lot more prepared for it than they were a few months ago, and from my experience at least checking it offensively so that it never has a chance to put in work is the most common method to deal with it as of current. However, Urshifu is still one of the key figures that pressure Kyurem-B in the meta. Even if you tank a banded CC with chople, it's not a hit you would like to take.

RE Tsareena: Tsareena can be worked to success in this fake out-heavy meta. Tsareenas ability is phenomenal, but your opponent can see Tsareena on team preview. Tsareena gets worn down whenever it switches in, and having to constantly switch in to stop priority moves that may not even be coming can be awkward and predictable.

RE Rain: Rain is sneakily good in the meta, be it traditional swift swim offense or other rain beneficiaries like zapdos/tornadus/genesect ferro. that's all I have to say