Suspect SS Inheritance Suspect Test #1: Regenerator and Sheer Force

[astralydia]

OP made by Clefable

Welcome to the first suspect test of SS Inheritance! We are suspect testing Regenerator and Sheer Force to be banned from SS Inheritance.

Regenerator is the single most widespread defensive ability in Inheritance, seeing use on a majority of teams. The presence of Regenerator users with access to pivot moves, like Slowbro, Mienshao, and Tornadus-T, has led to the rise of bulky pivots which sponge attacks and rotate out to safety. RegenVest users in particular have led to the unviability of all but a few special attackers. Regenerator users often come in pairs, leading to struggles in which neither side can force progress as they swap back and forth. On the other hand, Regenerator provides invaluable defensive role compression for balance and stall teams in a meta that allows for unpredictable offensive threats.

On the other end of the spectrum, Sheer Force is an ability allowing for strong attackers with unwallable coverage. Donors like Mawile, Tauros, and Nidoqueen give inheritors like Dragapult and Kyurem powerful attacking options to bypass checks like Blissey, Tapu Fini and RegenVesters such as Snorlax and Celesteela. Additionally, Sheer Force users benefit from Life Orb’s 30% power boost without loss of health. The multiple donors, inheritors and coverage options even within the same donors on top of power and little to no chip make this one of the most viable and common abilities in the meta, teams often having multiple users.

In community surveys, opinions were split close to 50/50 between banning and keeping both abilities. So, we have decided to put it to a vote! Make your voice heard by getting reqs.

To participate in the suspect test, please make an alt account and observe the following guidelines:

• Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, September 3) with "IRSF [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "IRSF Mengyfan" to ladder with.
• To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 25 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 75.
• Regenerator and Sheer Force will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.

The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on Friday, September 17th (11:59 pm PST).

After obtaining reqs, make a post in this thread. It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account -- post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured.

 

[Anpawo]

hope regenerator isnt banned or it will only be ho teams.

 

[Don Vascus]

Reporting in as IRSF ax collector.

These are my current fax:

To check Sheer Force mons you need very specific mons like VA Fini/pex, Spdef Volcarona or dusclops, something to cover gengar aka mandi or bliss, and praying that they dont run the one move that gets you such as sludge wave + superpower, heatran, ice beam on gengar and the such. Voting ban

Regenerator is super degenerate and allows for one strat that shouldnt exists bc we implemented 2 ability clause i swear, but as a STAAAB player i fear that without regen this meta will have to run blissey on every team wishing to have a defensive backbone because trying to check all the other special attackers without RegenVest or 2 slots is near impossible. Voting not ban

 

[Animesh_]

Confirming as IRSF Last Try

 

[arn.av136]

confirming

 

[Anpawo]

Why cant we use our account to vote if we have more than 75 gxe (83). I dont get the point to create new accounts every time their is a suspect.

 

[in the hills]

Why cant we use our account to vote if we have more than 75 gxe (83). I dont get the point to create new accounts every time their is a suspect.

The point of suspect tests is to gauge whether the subject is healthy or not in the current metagame; an account that already has games played on it gives no indication to when they last played the metagame (in this case, your ladder ranking is from at least 5 months ago since this is an OMotM ladder). New suspect alts ensure that people both have played the current metagame and have taken the subject of the suspect test into account while laddering so we can achieve the most accurate results.

If you have any further questions feel free to ask in the OM Room or me directly

 

[Plimsoll Punks]

reqs

 

[Toxtection]

Confirming as IRSF Attempt1

I agree with Heracross 2.0's take on Regen, having used stall myself, I was able to reqs with it but I never felt that it was in any way overpowered, often losing to setup sweepers when their checks were low. I didn't have nearly as much trouble with sheer force, tbf, magearna comfey/hoothoot was way tougher to beat, RegenVest Goodra was able to handle all sheer force mons other than Kyurem, which I only ran into once, which was walled by blissey since it didn't have superpower (thankfully).

Voting DNB for both.

 

[Hera]

Not banning Regen and banning Sheer Force, the former was only broken when stall was super good but since Unaware was banned it kinda sucks, while the latter gives any fast mon 0 switchins and forces massive concessions at teambuilding, with the only counterplay being "boy I sure do hope it's not running the right coverage move that OHKOs my check", and I fail to understand the arguments behind keeping it around.

While we're here, can we ban Magearna, Comfey, Terrakion, and Weavile in that order? Magearna is super dumb and can still beat most of its checks depending on a small set change, Comfey only enables braindead sweepers that click CM and Draining Kiss while having a solid enough movepool to work around any counters, Terrakion has no consistent defensive counterplay between its sets and forces offensive counterplay to resist Rock, and Weavile has no switchins with Hitmontop!Weavile and abuses the lack of offensive Ice resists with its Tsareena set.

Used this team, go nuts. Shoutouts to the guy running QD Frosmoth!Tangrowth with Struggle Bug.

 

[The Number Man]

confirming.

i kept losing to scoli! marowak, really nice set

regen is nowhere near broken, its a fine ability in the current meta. defensive core staple, but there's nothing wrong with that. every tier runs regen in gen8

sf wasn't a problem in the current meta either. its possible it becomes an issue down the line, but as is the only things that struck me as busted were scoliwak and of course hoothot mage. scoliwak mainly cause my ground resist was zapdos, so i was weak to edgequake coverage - so it was probs just my team. as for hoothoot mage, its not mage on its own imo, nor is it tinted on its own, its both. mage's steel typing and bulk lets it set up on 80% of the meta and tinted lens means that most mons that can actually ohko it will get nuked by a speed boosted mage. the only things that handle it are heatran, victini and cm volcarona. scarf cinderace and hazers as well i guess.

TLDR: voting dnb on both

 

[Dr. Phd. BJ]

Sheer Force should be banned from inheritance. The coverage and power is just simply too much for the current meta, and the variety of moves you can get outside of basic sheer force moves make it essentially unwallable. Along with strong Ice/Elec/Fire/Ground/Fight/Ghost/Poison coverage options, sheer force also offers Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes (Nidoqueen), Knock Off (Mawile), Taunt, Toxic, heck even Grass Knot if you are worried about Swampert. There are several different sets that can be run depending on the mon. As an example, Dragapult, Thundurus-T, and Salazzle are 3 different sheer force users that will all run different coverage and can pressure pretty much every mon in the tier with the right set barring some extremely niche mons such as regenvest goodra / umbreon that are also often times unreliable. Sheer Force users also have a speed tier now! It isn't so much the neutral coverage that makes sf broken to me, it's the amount of mons when you look in the builder that get hit se that make it broken.

Regenerator is a nuisance to play against, especially since inheritance can allow you to essentially cherry pick your core. Regen also gives great utility in U-Turn, Teleport, Toxic Spikes, Haze, Defog, Toxic, and Knock Off. This allow mons to almost never be deadweight in a matchup, since at worst you have a safe pivot that can knock off at least one item. I used to be for a regen ban, but the tier has so many offensive threats that regen is one of the only abilities that can actually keep non-offensive builds afloat in the current meta. Regen does have counter play, there are offensive ways to pressure regen cores such as status, knock, powerful breakers, and set up sweepers depending on the regen core. As for defensive answers, there are quite a few. Pex inheritors lack coverage outside of scald / knock / poison. Mienshao/Tangrowth inheritors lack coverage to consistently hit flying types, although they do not like losing HDB / getting put to sleep. Torn-T inheritors have to rely on focus blast, hurricane, heat wave, and others to break steels, rocks, elecs, and even drought users due to inaccurate hurricanes. Most of the time they're only clicking Knock/U-Turn/Defog anyways. Slowbro/Slowking inheritors almost always run Teleport/Slack off, which means that only two slots are freed up. They have the best special coverage among regen inheritors, but still struggle against waters, dragons to an extent, and special walls such as blissey. I personally think that with the ability clause (2 regens per team), and the ability to see the inheritor keeps the ability in check. Regen could possibly become broken depending on metagame shifts, but even then that is a reach. For the moment, I would vote no ban on regenerator.

I also think that Magearna should be next on the list. The comfey sets are brutal to play against. Factor in hazards, rocky helmet, flame body/statused mons, losing an item, possible screens, grassy terrain, magearna holding an se berry, and breakers that dunk on steels/bliss and the mon is borderline impossible to keep in check. There are a few answers such as phasing moves, haze, taunt, dark types immune to prio via queenly majesty/psy terrain, dedicated pivots such as blissey+offensive check, and strong (preferably physical) fire/ground type moves. At the bare minimum, this mon is extremely unhealthy and centralizing. I don't see how people can argue against that.

https://pokepast.es/e335f3a9e0ab27b3

Might as well post the team I used for reqs, it's a fun ho team with some cool sets and triple prio. This team doesn't have regen or sf, which means it will be legal post suspect. Take it for ladder/test games for omsl or w/e

 

[Eledyr]

confirming as IRSF Eledyr2
I don't play much the tier; I spammed this funny team on the ladd. From what I saw, Sheer Force and Regenerator were two broken talent beyond a plethora. I don't know for now on if it should be banned, probably going to wait and vote later.
https://pokepast.es/178a274424f02d2f
The team I played, if anyone wanna try it.

 

[Isaiah]

Probably voting BAN on sheer force and DNB on regen. I dunno how we can expect to reasonably check things without the utility of regen

 

[Riku Sakuraba]

Confirming reqs as IRSF Brandon.
I don't play this tier enough to have credibility, so take my words with a heap of sea salt.

Sheer Force should be banned from Inheritance. With Sheer Force eliminating Life Orb damage, there's a lot of mons that benefit from the BoltBeam coverage as well as other coverage that wasn't available before. While it was good for some mons I used, the fact of the matter is that teams that didn't carry a Blissey got side-swept by most special Sheer Force users. It gives a lot of mons a lot of power, and it feels like you're forced to carry a good Sp.Def or take them down before they take you.

Regenerator: I wouldn't say this ability is broken, but it's more annoying more than anything. It grants a lot of utility to mons. You can also set hazards and remove them depending on what you're inheriting. As annoying as it is, it's manageable since there is a lot of wallbreakers and setup sweepers especially with the premise of inheriting other movesets. The two-ability clause also keeps it from getting out of control. If it really came down to me voting, I'd vote no ban. There's plenty of ways to work around Regenerator.

I would post my team, but I just threw stuff together and whatever stuck worked for a time.

 

[Tuthur]

s/o Think who beat me on ladder with his suspect team so I could steal it. Only lost to a lucky TR player.

I mostly agree with the posts above, Sheer Force is just too hard to play against if you don't have a RegenVest or a Blissey, ban for sure. Regenerator isn't even close to be broken.
Please unban Unaware or do something to limit screens. It isn't normal to have to still struggle versus screens when you run two phazers and scarf queenly majesty weavile.

 

[readytolose]

Regenerator is basically necessary in order to check things

Sheer Force might be problematic but if you ban it AV regen mons don't become any less mandatory I feel because there are still strong special attackers that don't use sheer force. While it's true that certain spdef pivots can lose to specific coverage from sheer force users it's also true that sheer force mons can't cover every single spdef pivot in one set so I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

Also magearna is a degenerate mon that ruins every meta it touches, surprised we're not suspecting that.

 

[Anpawo]

View attachment 370968
s/o Think who beat me on ladder with his suspect team so I could steal it. Only lost to a lucky TR player.

I mostly agree with the posts above, Sheer Force is just too hard to play against if you don't have a RegenVest or a Blissey, ban for sure. Regenerator isn't even close to be broken.
Please unban Unaware or do something to limit screens. It isn't normal to have to still struggle versus screens when you run two phazers and scarf queenly majesty weavile.

Everyday, i wake up and pray for a deban of unaware.

 

[twinkay]

 

[Swas]

Confirming as IRSF Sushi Baka

Hide

s/o to Haail for support and also the team by Dr. Phd. BJ, got reqs with it after getting sniped thrice by Tuthur in another alt when I was one game away

 

[adem]

confirming as IRSF adem3, ty Swastik for the team

 

[Latias]

S/outs to Swastik for support+company and Tuthur for sniping me

All hail Drumlax!

 

[ZNK2]

Confirming as IRSF chomp.

First of all, even tho I do not play much the tier, I definitely think Regenerator is a determining factor in the healthiness, and more precisely in the diversity of the Inheritance metagame. Considering all of the powerful breakers ruling the tier, banning Regen would probably constrain any team wishing to get a more or less solid defensive backbone to run very specific synergies in order not to get totally obliterated by the massive breaking power of the metagame ; Regenerator is always annoying to play against, but banning it would probably make teambuilding in Inheritance way more restrictive and far less enjoyable than it is in the current state of the metagame.
Voting DNB on this one.

The problem with Sheer Force is however quite different. Not only the diversity of coverage options, but also of the multiplicity of abusers makes this ability broken beyond comprehension and basically too much to handle even for the most consistent defensive cores of the metagame. If you're running anything fatter than a bulky offense, there will always be one, if not more specific Sheer Force abuser set that you'll quite much lose to unless of a miracle ; a balance team built around AV pex will prob lose against SFLO Thundy-T, while another one running AV goodra will get destroyed by Kyurem. However, even though Sheer Force seems absolutely broken on paper, I didn't have any problemes dealing with it during my ladder session probably because I was using Dr. Phd. BJ dual screens HO (thank you for the team btw, worked really well for me!).
Guess I'll stick around and analyse other people's opinions for now, but probably voting to BAN Sheer Force from Inheritance.

also mage is stupid plz ban lmao

 

[Ron]

Confirming

 

[Frito]

i hate hurricane... big thanks to Swastik for passing the team.