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Upon its arrival with Pokemon Home in SS Monotype, Kyurem-B has shown to be a tremendous threat as a result of it getting new moves to take advantage of. With moves like Dragon Dance, Icicle Spear and Freeze Dry, Kyurem-B is now better than before compared to SM. Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear now allow it to run an entirely physical set, turning it into a strong Dragon Dance sweeper that many types struggle to handle, not to mention that Icicle Spear + Fusion Bolt hitting the vast majority of the entire metagame. Several effective sets have surfaced: Substitute allows Kyurem-B to avoid status from common defensive Pokemon like Toxapex and Galarian Corsola while forcing Aegislash to change to Blade form to beat it, Freeze Shock paired with Power Herb means Kyurem-B can take out bulkier Pokemon such as Hatterene, Tyranitar, Snorlax, and Ferrothorn easier. Other sets like Roost are less common but also have merit.
Kyurem-B's great bulk plays a huge role as a setup sweeper as well. 125 HP backed up by 100/90 defenses means that it comfortably sets up in a variety of scenarios, while common revenge killers in the Monotype metagame have trouble beating it especially with support. On either type, Kyurem-B has access to capable partners to help it sweep. On Ice, Alolan Ninetales sets up Aurora Veil in one turn, and on Dragon, Kyurem-B can be paired with a screens setter like Duraludon or even Dragapult. Aurora Veil and screens support make Kyurem-B extremely bulky which means that common revenge killers like Choice Scarf Gengar, Alolan Raichu under Electric Terrain, Excadrill under sand, Choice Scarf Flygon, and Choice Scarf Ditto struggle to beat Kyurem-B, allowing it to set up another Dragon Dance to outspeed the vast majority of the metagame or just beat them on the spot. Due to all these traits, Kyurem-B has shown to be a tremendous threat in Monotype ever since it was re-released, and so the Monotype council has decided to suspect Kyurem-B this time around.
Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Kyurem-B in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.
The suspect laddering will not start immediately, instead use the time period to gather thoughts about whether or not you think Kyurem-B should be banned. The name tag for laddering will be released on Friday May 8th at 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4) which you may begin.
The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 45 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks from Friday May 8th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4) until Friday May 22nd @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Kyurem-B will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.
Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.
You may use this thread to discuss this Kyurem-B suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.
You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.
Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.
Hopefully, this gets banned...
Ice has something very interesting coming that provides BoltBeam coverage and benefits from Hail. Kyurem having Dragon Dance just does not fit inside of the metagame to me. Dropping Kyurem Black may force you to run Rotom-Frost until Arctozolt's hidden ability is out but Nasty Plot + Substitute, in my opinion, its more balanced and still hits pretty hard. I just do not see this benefitting the metagame as a whole. You're forced to play pretty offensively. "Scarf Keldeo Focus Blast" imagine landing
I don't feel particularly strongly in either direction.
While I don't think Kyurem-B has been the worst offender we've seen in Monotype, let alone SS Monotype, I do think discussion should probably focus on its being the beneficiary of strong support ecosystems on both its types.
I myself am a water type user always have been most likely always will. I can say from the many teams ive made this gen kyu-b at +1 demos just about all of them. The sub variant can sub freely on pex and can easily get a dd off on mons that arent equiped to properly take on kyu-b. Keldeo cant ohko kyu unless crit or specs keldeo and this becomes increasingly difficult if as on ice veil is up. If kyu manages to get 2 dd's up under veil it is all but over as barraskewda which isnt used too often on water is practically the only thing to outspeed. Primarina gets ohkoed by fusion bolt if kyu is at +1, it ignores unaware mons and quite frankly is only really stopped once it gets plus 1 by swift swimmers. If pelli dies or the swift swimmer dies u have to rely on scarf mons. scarf keldeo with aura sphere after sr has around an 80% chance to kill while secrete sword is around 65% to kill. ofc any other chip dmg helps but if kyu gets a sub up u need to sac something to take out the sub as fusion bolt/icicle spear can kill the majority of water mons. Sure something like cloyster can body both types but often times dragon runs first impression hax, sucker punch flapple, or scarf pult. We do have counters, but once mid to late game comes around kyu has already forced those counters out time and time again chipping them away only to return when they switch out and repeat the process due to its ability to be long lasting. The dlc drop thats coming bout a month from now features kingdra which I hope changes the tide. I might be a little bias but id go with the ban now and evaluate wheither it should come back once dlc drops.
Well, I suppose this day had to come eventually. I've said the bulk of how I feel about Kyurem-B in the Discussion Thread, but I'll reiterate some thoughts and throw in a couple more cents here and keep it short; should be a good discussion.
It's a pretty clear consensus between the community that Kyurem-B is a phenomenal Pokemon. Most people have probably put it mentally as a top 3 Pokemon in the tier, if not the best Pokemon in the tier for its pure wallbreaking ability, which is a fair assessment. However, I don't believe that Kyurem-B is by any means broken, rather it can be seen as a bit unhealthy. This problem I believe is no fault of Kyurem-B's own accord: to reiterate both Dragon and Ice teams have had minimal adjustments made to their natural playstyle to thrive as great types, while having an amazing support system/offensive core and removal of countless, natural checks to each type, and not just Kyurem-B in particular. Their playstyle can't really be matched because it's incredibly familiar from last gen, which are catered better due to how fast paced the metagame currently is, with less defensive and balanced cores opting for an HO or BO that the majority of other types don't have the capacity to adapt to.
Kyurem-B so happens to be at the center of it; being one of the few Pokemon that many believe that is broken in the sense that any DD set will tear through a majority of teams with ease, with or without setup/support. I don't believe that it's so cut and dry; it's not a Pokemon that you can instantly win games with and not have some sort of support or setup first, which for Dragon is contradictory to how it plays naturally (set up hazards and click buttons from your 2-3 choiced users). It crutches on that in order to be successful, to where it happens to be the greatest abuser of the support it does have (between Veil/dual Screens + Hazards). If anything should be used as evidence for it being suspect worthy, is for its unhealthiness factor. Is it unhealthy enough to where we resort to unviable forms of counterplay to be utilized as a means to combat it, and where entire types are gatekept from being used at high-level play? I personally believe the answer is "no" to both.
I'm personally voting No Ban, but the rationale behind this suspect is completely understandable considering how naturally powerful it is considering what Pokemon are currently available. I'm interested in the Pro-Ban arguments though; please enlighten me if anything if I've said might be exaggerated or not.
Here comes everyone's favorite unpopular opinion that nobody asked for. I firmly believe that Kyurem-B should NOT be banned for a few reasons. The first being admittedly that I do primarily play Dragon and Ice, making me naturally biased towards wanting to keep a very powerful Pokemon in my arsenal. However, I do still think that Kyurem-B isn't nearly as much of a menace to the metagame as some might think it is. This is for a few reasons that I hope to accurately articulate here, as well as hopefully persuade people to accept as well.
My first main reason for thinking Kyurem-B isn't ban worthy is its comparison to the other things that have been banned thus far in the tier, namely Dynamax and Melmetal. Most would agree that the presence of these two things in the Gen 8 metagame was largely unhealthy and overbearing as they led too easily to a nearly guaranteed victory. Dynamax's simultaneous boosts/drops to stats, amped base power to moves, and doubling of HP essentially turned any mon with the right type of move into a monster, specifically flying types, while Melmetal's absurd bulk and raw power in combination with having exclusive access to one of, if not the single best steel type move in the game in Double Iron Bash meant that it had few to no reliable counters and switch ins (this is something important that I will come back to later). With that being established, now we're looking at Kyurem-B about to be put in the same situation. It is without a question that Kyurem is an extremely powerful Pokemon, sporting a massive 170 base attack, decent base special attack and bulk, and a middling base 95 speed. What it lacked to really cement it as a top tier offensive threat in Gen 7 it now has gained in access to set up in Dragon Dance as well as access to physical ice coverage in Icicle Spear. With that being said, the main question I have is this: Is Kyu-B really as meta-breaking as Dynamax and Melmetal were? I would say no, it simply isn't. I think lots of people are quick to jump and say that Kyu-B is broken, but if that is the case then where does the standard of something being broken begin and where does the standard of something just being really good end?
I'd like to take the question I provided there and attach an example to it to try to articulate what I mean. Take a Pokemon like Lando-T in Gen 7 for example (before you say "bUt PaJAmaZz! lAnDo-T wAsn'T nEArLy aS mUcH oF A tHReAt iN mONo aS iT WaS iN oU!" yes, I do recognize that but I am using Lando-T's presence in OU as an example of the logic I'm trying to shed light on, so bear with me). Gen 7 Lando-T was without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in OU, being able to use its high stats and vast move pool to fill in a plethora of roles and do them all with extreme precision. As such, the case can easily be made that Lando was a really good Pokemon, all things considered. However, was it being a dominant force in the meta ever considered unhealthy? No, it wasn't. Lando-T was deemed by all to be a really good Pokemon, but not necessarily mind numbingly broken. I think this is an important case to look at as Kyu-B and Lando-T share a lot of similarities in their respective tiers, with both being meta-defining mons that can effectively turn the tides of games in just a few well played turns. However, going back to the examples of Melmetal and Dynamax from earlier, where does Kyu-B fall in this threshold? Is it really unhealthy to the meta like those two were? Or is it more akin to Lando-T in just being a really good, strong Pokemon? As you probably guessed, I think it's more like the latter, and I hope to prove this by providing some counter-points to the arguments that I've been seeing float around.
Counter-point #1: "It can just come in and click DD"
Is Kyu-B terrifying after clicking DD? Yes, absolutely (although I'll talk about just how terrifying it really is next). What isn't necessarily true in this statement is how it implies Kyurem can just DD for free, which simply isn't true. The fact of the matter is Kyurem can't just come in and out whenever it wants, and there are measures that can be taken to ensure your opponent can't get Kyurem in as easily. For Kyurem to get in "for free" the Kyurem player generally needs one of the following scenarios. The first being bringing in Kyurem right after a Pokemon faints, and the second being to make a prediction of some kind which would allow for Kyurem to come in safely. Because of this, Kyurem often relies on some kind of team support to get in safely, or at least safer, meaning if you identify the support that it needs you can target taking that support out, which logically leads to two outcomes. Either the Kyurem player is forced to potentially sack something off and delay trying to set up, costing them much needed momentum, or they lose that support entirely, making it harder for Kyurem to come in. Being part Ice type means Kyurem can easily be crippled gradually by stealth rocks and other hazards, which also puts constant pressure on the Kyurem player to not constantly come in and take constant damage with their own threat. Additionally, like any other physical sweeper it can be crippled by status, particularly burns which will make it hits far weaker, or paralysis making it slow enough for your slower heavy hitters to deal crippling blows to it. Because of all these things, Kyurem switching in isn't nearly as free as it can be made out to be.
Counter-point #2: "It has no switch ins/counter play"
There are a few things I want to touch on with this one. Arguably most important being that this, like the previous point, is exaggerated. Like I said before, Kyu-B at +1 is not something to be taken lightly. However, should Kyu-B set up once, it's not like it's always an insta-win for the Kyurem player. In fact, I've seen many games where a Kyurem player tried to set up too early and it cost him the game (sometimes that player has been me, but that's not what this is about). With regards to switch ins, I'll share a few mons that prove this to be wrong.
The first being Ferrothorn, which can beat and force out Kyurem if used well enough. In particular, Body press and Gyro Ball dish back massive damage to Kyurem, making it a reliable check to Kyu even at +1. Combining this with the fact that Ferro is available on Steel, a type which does well against both of Kyurem's available types makes it a reliable natural check.
- Average damage received: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Gyro Ball: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (142 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 290-344 (74.1 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Body press: 52+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 194-230 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Another available switch in and counter can be found in Aegislash. Aegi's amazing defensive typing and high stat spreads makes it a natural check to Kyu-B, much like the aforementioned Ferrothorn, however with more offensive potential available to clap back with. Depending on the set, Aegi can have a multitude of options when dealing with Kyu, but regardless Kyurem will often have trouble breaking Aegi even at +1, much less survive the move that it is hit back with.
- Average damage received on an offensive spread: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Average damage received on a specially defensive spread: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 137-162 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Average damage received on a physically defensive spread: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 124-147 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Specs Flash Cannon: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 494-584 (126.3 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Standard SD Close Combat: 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 304-358 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Standard Special Flash Cannon: 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Moving on to counter play, this list is far more expansive. Essentially any scarfer at or above base 100 speed will outspend Kyu-B even at +1, allowing them to come right in after Kyu-B gets one kill and either kill it outright or severely damage it. Examples of these options are all of the Swords of Justice (Keldeo, Terrakion, Virizion, and Cobalion), Jirachi, Dragapult, Charizard (with Solar Power active it easily OHKOs Kyurem), Weavile with Low Kick or Foul Play, and Zeraora if you're feeling bold. In addition, mons with weather boosts such as Chlorophyll Venusaur, essentially all of Swift Swim Water, and Sand Rush Excadrill will all be able to outspeed and punish Kyurem.
In conclusion to this point, while Kyurem can indeed be a scary mon to deal with, it isn't as if the tier lacks the tools to successfully deal with it. This in particular is why I think Kyurem is more similar to cases like Lando-T in OU than Melmetal or Dynamax. In the case of Melmetal and Dynamax, entirely new sets and strategies had to be implemented to deal with them (looking at you, Ditto), and even then the tier was still widely threatened by their presence. However, like Lando-T in OU, Kyurem-B has many Pokemon that not only check it, but these are Pokemon running sets that they would widely be running with or without Kyurem in the tier, something that I think is very important to point out. Again, Kyurem is absolutely a really good Pokemon, but because of the evidence given I don't think it's good enough to be considered broken.
(Edit: Yes, Sub does dampen some of the checks and counter play I listed above, but I still stand by my opinion that Kyurem isn't completely unstoppable in every scenario. Just thought I'd come in and address this after talking it over with some others.)
Moving on to my final reason as to why I don't think this Pokemon should be banned is the fact that in the same manner Kyurem changed the meta with the arrival of Pokemon Home, we are soon to see another big meta shift in the arrival of the first wave of Sword and Shield DLC, meaning more Pokemon coming back into the pokedex, and subsequently into the Gen 8 meta. Specifically looking at the datamined new moves said to be potentially coming to Gen 8 - This post from JTD783 in particular - we can see that some of Kyu's natural predators from last gen are getting some new toys of their own (Marking this as spoilers just in case anyone reading this wants to be surprised by potential new movesets):
Aerodactyl getting DD and Rock Blast, Skarmory getting Body Press, Registeel getting Heavy Slam and Body Press, Sharpedo getting Close Combat, the Lati twins getting Aura Sphere on top of already having Draco to deal with Kyu, All of the Tapus getting a vast array of coverage, Buzzwole and Pheremosa getting Close Combat, Celesteela getting Cosmic Power, Magearna getting Rest and presumably Sleep Talk as well as Agility and Draining Kiss, and Stakataka getting Body Press.
With all of this being taken into account and being coming in only a month or so, banning Kyurem now before allowing a new meta to shape around it seems a bit too hasty. The new meta that takes shape following the DLC is likely to be a game changer for Gen 8 mono, and I think it would be in our best interest as a community to go into this huge meta shift not coming off of a recent big meta change that would surely follow Kyurem's disappearance. Going into a drastically different meta right after only barely adjusting to one in which the biggest offensive threat is gone will be far more chaotic than if we go in with the more organic one we have now, meaning it could potentially take even longer for THAT meta to stabilize and develop. Even if you disagree with the points I made earlier, it's hard to say that we know for a fact that even if Kyurem is broken now he will still be broken after the DLC drops.
In conclusion, I think that Kyurem-B is a very powerful, meta defining Pokemon in the current Gen 8 metagame. With that being said, I really don't think it's as broken as some people might believe it to be, and I hope that the points I talked about here might change your mind if you're thinking on voting Yes. All things considered, the world won't end if Kyurem is banned and I am open to hearing the points that everyone else has to make. Regardless, I hope we all look at the facts when we go to vote and are not voting just to make certain match ups easier than others. Good luck to everyone who will be working on getting reqs
I just don't understand..if a lot of people complain (i complain heck) that its Broken...why not do anything about it. No one waited until DLC for Melmetal...people said they were gonna test Melmetal for a potential unban when DLC comes. "It's broken but not ban-worthy" I can understand something like Skarmory Whirlwind (which gets ohko'd at +2), or Specs Aegislash(kyurem just subs then subs again to scout or attack). With an additional note, all the calculations are Steel types and none mentions Kyurem-Black + Screens.
It would be nice for Water, Ground, Poison, Flying, Grass, Dark, Fairy, Bug, and Psychic to have somewhat of a better matchup without Kyurem and more diversity in sets. Just because there are Steel-typed counters and an incoming unreleased Pokemon that could possibly counter (Registeel) which is on Steel again...Melmetal was labeled as unhealthy and Kyurem-B is labeled as the same, I am assuming its just a polite/indirect way of saying its broken. If its "unhealthy" to the metagame why keep it?
Pros: Water, Ground, Poison, Flying, Grass, Dark, Fairy, Bug, and Psychic +more improves
Cons: Ice uses Regular Kyurem or Rotom-Frost as a replacement but still usable. Dragon still is a top type
Note: I am not against anyone's personal opinions or ideas about kyurem so don't get in your feelings fellow kyu user and I may not be hitting key points (someone can explain better if they are Pro-Ban). I am not relying on DLC to "see what comes"
Here comes everyone's favorite unpopular opinion that nobody asked for. I firmly believe that Kyurem-B should NOT be banned for a few reasons. The first being admittedly that I do primarily play Dragon and Ice, making me naturally biased towards wanting to keep a very powerful Pokemon in my arsenal. However, I do still think that Kyurem-B isn't nearly as much of a menace to the metagame as some might think it is. This is for a few reasons that I hope to accurately articulate here, as well as hopefully persuade people to accept as well.
My first main reason for thinking Kyurem-B isn't ban worthy is its comparison to the other things that have been banned thus far in the tier, namely Dynamax and Melmetal. Most would agree that the presence of these two things in the Gen 8 metagame was largely unhealthy and overbearing as they led too easily to a nearly guaranteed victory. Dynamax's simultaneous boosts/drops to stats, amped base power to moves, and doubling of HP essentially turned any mon with the right type of move into a monster, specifically flying types, while Melmetal's absurd bulk and raw power in combination with having exclusive access to one of, if not the single best steel type move in the game in Double Iron Bash meant that it had few to no reliable counters and switch ins (this is something important that I will come back to later). With that being established, now we're looking at Kyurem-B about to be put in the same situation. It is without a question that Kyurem is an extremely powerful Pokemon, sporting a massive 170 base attack, decent base special attack and bulk, and a middling base 95 speed. What it lacked to really cement it as a top tier offensive threat in Gen 7 it now has gained in access to set up in Dragon Dance as well as access to physical ice coverage in Icicle Spear. With that being said, the main question I have is this: Is Kyu-B really as meta-breaking as Dynamax and Melmetal were? I would say no, it simply isn't. I think lots of people are quick to jump and say that Kyu-B is broken, but if that is the case then where does the standard of something being broken begin and where does the standard of something just being really good end?
I'd like to take the question I provided there and attach an example to it to try to articulate what I mean. Take a Pokemon like Lando-T in Gen 7 for example (before you say "bUt PaJAmaZz! lAnDo-T wAsn'T nEArLy aS mUcH oF A tHReAt iN mONo aS iT WaS iN oU!" yes, I do recognize that but I am using Lando-T's presence in OU as an example of the logic I'm trying to shed light on, so bear with me). Gen 7 Lando-T was without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in OU, being able to use its high stats and vast move pool to fill in a plethora of roles and do them all with extreme precision. As such, the case can easily be made that Lando was a really good Pokemon, all things considered. However, was it being a dominant force in the meta ever considered unhealthy? No, it wasn't. Lando-T was deemed by all to be a really good Pokemon, but not necessarily mind numbingly broken. I think this is an important case to look at as Kyu-B and Lando-T share a lot of similarities in their respective tiers, with both being meta-defining mons that can effectively turn the tides of games in just a few well played turns. However, going back to the examples of Melmetal and Dynamax from earlier, where does Kyu-B fall in this threshold? Is it really unhealthy to the meta like those two were? Or is it more akin to Lando-T in just being a really good, strong Pokemon? As you probably guessed, I think it's more like the latter, and I hope to prove this by providing some counter-points to the arguments that I've been seeing float around.
Counter-point #1: "It can just come in and click DD"
Is Kyu-B terrifying after clicking DD? Yes, absolutely (although I'll talk about just how terrifying it really is next). What isn't necessarily true in this statement is how it implies Kyurem can just DD for free, which simply isn't true. The fact of the matter is Kyurem can't just come in and out whenever it wants, and there are measures that can be taken to ensure your opponent can't get Kyurem in as easily. For Kyurem to get in "for free" the Kyurem player generally needs one of the following scenarios. The first being bringing in Kyurem right after a Pokemon faints, and the second being to make a prediction of some kind which would allow for Kyurem to come in safely. Because of this, Kyurem often relies on some kind of team support to get in safely, or at least safer, meaning if you identify the support that it needs you can target taking that support out, which logically leads to two outcomes. Either the Kyurem player is forced to potentially sack something off and delay trying to set up, costing them much needed momentum, or they lose that support entirely, making it harder for Kyurem to come in. Being part Ice type means Kyurem can easily be crippled gradually by stealth rocks and other hazards, which also puts constant pressure on the Kyurem player to not constantly come in and take constant damage with their own threat. Additionally, like any other physical sweeper it can be crippled by status, particularly burns which will make it hits far weaker, or paralysis making it slow enough for your slower heavy hitters to deal crippling blows to it. Because of all these things, Kyurem switching in isn't nearly as free as it can be made out to be.
Counter-point #2: "It has no switch ins/counter play"
There are a few things I want to touch on with this one. Arguably most important being that this, like the previous point, is exaggerated. Like I said before, Kyu-B at +1 is not something to be taken lightly. However, should Kyu-B set up once, it's not like it's always an insta-win for the Kyurem player. In fact, I've seen many games where a Kyurem player tried to set up too early and it cost him the game (sometimes that player has been me, but that's not what this is about). With regards to switch ins, I'll share a few mons that prove this to be wrong.
The first being Ferrothorn, which can beat and force out Kyurem if used well enough. In particular, Body press and Gyro Ball dish back massive damage to Kyurem, making it a reliable check to Kyu even at +1. Combining this with the fact that Ferro is available on Steel, a type which does well against both of Kyurem's available types makes it a reliable natural check.
- Average damage received: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Gyro Ball: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (142 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 290-344 (74.1 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Body press: 52+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 194-230 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Another available switch in and counter can be found in Aegislash. Aegi's amazing defensive typing and high stat spreads makes it a natural check to Kyu-B, much like the aforementioned Ferrothorn, however with more offensive potential available to clap back with. Depending on the set, Aegi can have a multitude of options when dealing with Kyu, but regardless Kyurem will often have trouble breaking Aegi even at +1, much less survive the move that it is hit back with.
- Average damage received on an offensive spread: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Average damage received on a specially defensive spread: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 137-162 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Average damage received on a physically defensive spread: +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 124-147 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Specs Flash Cannon: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 494-584 (126.3 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Standard SD Close Combat: 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 304-358 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Standard Special Flash Cannon: 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Moving on to counter play, this list is far more expansive. Essentially any scarfer at or above base 100 speed will outspend Kyu-B even at +1, allowing them to come right in after Kyu-B gets one kill and either kill it outright or severely damage it. Examples of these options are all of the Swords of Justice (Keldeo, Terrakion, Virizion, and Cobalion), Jirachi, Dragapult, Charizard (with Solar Power active it easily OHKOs Kyurem), Weavile with Low Kick or Foul Play, and Zeraora if you're feeling bold. In addition, mons with weather boosts such as Chlorophyll Venusaur, essentially all of Swift Swim Water, and Sand Rush Excadrill will all be able to outspeed and punish Kyurem.
In conclusion to this point, while Kyurem can indeed be a scary mon to deal with, it isn't as if the tier lacks the tools to successfully deal with it. This in particular is why I think Kyurem is more similar to cases like Lando-T in OU than Melmetal or Dynamax. In the case of Melmetal and Dynamax, entirely new sets and strategies had to be implemented to deal with them (looking at you, Ditto), and even then the tier was still widely threatened by their presence. However, like Lando-T in OU, Kyurem-B has many Pokemon that not only check it, but these are Pokemon running sets that they would widely be running with or without Kyurem in the tier, something that I think is very important to point out. Again, Kyurem is absolutely a really good Pokemon, but because of the evidence given I don't think it's good enough to be considered broken.
(Edit: Yes, Sub does dampen some of the checks and counter play I listed above, but I still stand by my opinion that Kyurem isn't completely unstoppable in every scenario. Just thought I'd come in and address this after talking it over with some others.)
Moving on to my final reason as to why I don't think this Pokemon should be banned is the fact that in the same manner Kyurem changed the meta with the arrival of Pokemon Home, we are soon to see another big meta shift in the arrival of the first wave of Sword and Shield DLC, meaning more Pokemon coming back into the pokedex, and subsequently into the Gen 8 meta. Specifically looking at the datamined new moves said to be potentially coming to Gen 8 - This post from JTD783 in particular - we can see that some of Kyu's natural predators from last gen are getting some new toys of their own (Marking this as spoilers just in case anyone reading this wants to be surprised by potential new movesets):
Aerodactyl getting DD and Rock Blast, Skarmory getting Body Press, Registeel getting Heavy Slam and Body Press, Sharpedo getting Close Combat, the Lati twins getting Aura Sphere on top of already having Draco to deal with Kyu, All of the Tapus getting a vast array of coverage, Buzzwole and Pheremosa getting Close Combat, Celesteela getting Cosmic Power, Magearna getting Rest and presumably Sleep Talk as well as Agility and Draining Kiss, and Stakataka getting Body Press.
With all of this being taken into account and being coming in only a month or so, banning Kyurem now before allowing a new meta to shape around it seems a bit too hasty. The new meta that takes shape following the DLC is likely to be a game changer for Gen 8 mono, and I think it would be in our best interest as a community to go into this huge meta shift not coming off of a recent big meta change that would surely follow Kyurem's disappearance. Going into a drastically different meta right after only barely adjusting to one in which the biggest offensive threat is gone will be far more chaotic than if we go in with the more organic one we have now, meaning it could potentially take even longer for THAT meta to stabilize and develop. Even if you disagree with the points I made earlier, it's hard to say that we know for a fact that even if Kyurem is broken now he will still be broken after the DLC drops.
In conclusion, I think that Kyurem-B is a very powerful, meta defining Pokemon in the current Gen 8 metagame. With that being said, I really don't think it's as broken as some people might believe it to be, and I hope that the points I talked about here might change your mind if you're thinking on voting Yes. All things considered, the world won't end if Kyurem is banned and I am open to hearing the points that everyone else has to make. Regardless, I hope we all look at the facts when we go to vote and are not voting just to make certain match ups easier than others. Good luck to everyone who will be working on getting reqs
This Kyub set is the most common one in the metagame currently, for both of its types. So I'll be referring to this set for most of my points.
Being part Ice type means Kyurem can easily be crippled gradually by stealth rocks and other hazards, which also puts constant pressure on the Kyurem player to not constantly come in and take constant damage with their own threat. Additionally, like any other physical sweeper it can be crippled by status, particularly burns which will make it hits far weaker, or paralysis making it slow enough for your slower heavy hitters to deal crippling blows to it. Because of all these things, Kyurem switching in isn't nearly as free as it can be made out to be.
Heavy Duty Boots completely prevents all entry hazard effects from impacting Kyub's setup potential in any way. In the case of either type, it doesn't matter whether the player is capable of keeping hazards off their side of the field or not. And the points you made about status fail to hold up, since many defensive Pokemon such as Galarian Corsola and Toxapex who would spread these status conditions are incapable of breaking Kyub's Substitute, essentially becoming setup bait. It should go without saying that entry hazards and status conditions impede a setup sweeper's ability to sweep, since for most people that's pretty common knowledge. For Kyub specifically, these detriments are avoided with minimal effort(Heavy Duty Boots, Substitute). I understand that you're trying to refute the argument that Kyub just clicks DD and wins, but to set that aside with "entry hazards and status" just likens Kyub to some regular setup sweeper, which it very clearly isn't, otherwise this suspect test wouldn't be happening to begin with.
You did cite Ferrothorn and Aegislash as "counters" to Kyub, which isn't exactly true. On Steel teams, Ferrothorn doesn't commonly run Gyro Ball or Body Press, mostly opting solely for Power Whip as its only attack. This makes it incapable of threatening Kyub behind a Substitute in any way. This would only be applicable for Grass teams, and even then, this fails to take into account Kyub's excellent team support on both its types. Kyub will more often than not be supported by either Aurora Veil from Alolatails or Reflect/Light Screen from Dragapult/Duraludon. You've already shown that Aegislash's offensive variants are very reliably 2HKOed by +1 Fusion Bolt, making it insufficient as a "counter." But when Kyub is augmented by its team support and/or even a simple Substitute(which you at least acknowledge at the end), Aegislash fails to be that much of a reliable check as well. This point also applies to the Choice Scarfed offensive checks that you mentioned as well, many of which would simply end up failing to OHKO, or worse, give it an extra setup opportunity. Some of these points were even made in the OP, so now it just holds even less ground.
Moving on to my final reason as to why I don't think this Pokemon should be banned is the fact that in the same manner Kyurem changed the meta with the arrival of Pokemon Home, we are soon to see another big meta shift in the arrival of the first wave of Sword and Shield DLC, meaning more Pokemon coming back into the pokedex, and subsequently into the Gen 8 meta. Specifically looking at the datamined new moves said to be potentially coming to Gen 8 - This post from JTD783 in particular - we can see that some of Kyu's natural predators from last gen are getting some new toys of their own (Marking this as spoilers just in case anyone reading this wants to be surprised by potential new movesets)
I've heard this argument a few times, and it makes sense none of those times. Whenever a Pokemon is being suspected, the decision whether to ban it or not is considered within the lens of the CURRENT METAGAME. None of the potential answers to Kyub hiding behind a DLC patch are relevant at all within what's happening right now. And what's happening right now is that Kyub is the most potent and dominant setup sweeper in the metagame, with little to no reliable counterplay for many types. We simply can't put our hopes into the DLC releases to "self-correct" the metagame, or otherwise there would never be a suspect in the first place.
Now, as for my opinion, I do lean toward the ban side currently. The reasoning I have is similar to those listed in the OP, as well as the posts that some others have already made. However, I do hope to see some better arguments against banning Kyub later on, because these fail to hold ground at all.
Thanks smub for your feedback and opinion. I do admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on exact states of the meta and the latest sets, so you providing the set on top of your criticism is very helpful. I would like to address 1 point in particular though, if I may.
Whenever a Pokemon is being suspected, the decision whether to ban it or not is considered within the lens of the CURRENT METAGAME. None of the potential answers to Kyub hiding behind a DLC patch are relevant at all within what's happening right now.
After looking over Smogon's official Tiering Policy Guidelines (here) I don't see anywhere where it says that this can't be the case. What Roxiee said about not waiting for Melmetal is true, but the context is different there. This DLC is supposed to drop by the end of June 2020, and this is the start of May 2020, meaning at worst there is about 2 months before picking up the suspect again (1 month for DLC to drop, being generous with giving an entire month for the suspect to pick up again as it would probably be more like a week or 2 than a whole month). If we were to use this same logic when suspecting Melmetal, who was tested in mid-March, meaning instead of a 2-ish months maximum we would be looking at a 4-ish month minimum, which is completely absurd. Another reason why I think it would be smart to wait is that it not only gives more time for possible counter strategies to develop, but is that knowing the nature of suspect bans in nearly any tier, if Kyurem is banned now it won't be unbanned until the next main series game drops years from now, if it's ever even let back in at all. This isn't just something we can decide and then say "let's see if we change our minds in a month or two". That just isn't how this works and we all know it. To say that we should only look at the here and now when making big decisions such as this can be a dangerous outlook in my opinion. I will 100% concede that the set you provided is powerful and very hard to counter, but who is to say that it won't be mitigated if we just be a bit more patient.
Also, to hit on the "it's gate keeping which types are usable in higher play point", this tier will always have some types that are just better than others. There's nothing that can or honestly should be done about that, as it would make the planning and prep that goes into building for this tier not as worthwhile if everything is completely equal. Building off that point, the same Tier Policy Guidelines referenced earlier state the following:
V.) Team matchup management is a part of the game.
This means we have to accept that it's possible we will be at an advantage or disadvantage from the very beginning.
With optimal team building skills, the pool of options (Pokemon, moves, items) present in the tier should allow you to build teams addressing the different team archetypes at least decently and offer a solution in-battle to a large majority of the principle threats of the metagame.
Also, if gate keeping types is such a concern now, I think Gen 5 mono and it's domination of weather reliant teams/c teams would like to have a quick word with you.
Tl;dr - If we really think that Kyu-B is overwhelming it would be smarter to wait until DLC hits so we can at least have a chance to see if it really is the mon that's unhealthy instead of Gen 8 mono's natural limited options. If it's still just as bad after that, then there should be no qualms in banning it then.
Thanks smub for your feedback and opinion. I do admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on exact states of the meta and the latest sets, so you providing the set on top of your criticism is very helpful. I would like to address 1 point in particular though, if I may.
After looking over Smogon's official Tiering Policy Guidelines (here) I don't see anywhere where it says that this can't be the case. What Roxiee said about not waiting for Melmetal is true, but the context is different there. This DLC is supposed to drop by the end of June 2020, and this is the start of May 2020, meaning at worst there is about 2 months before picking up the suspect again (1 month for DLC to drop, being generous with giving an entire month for the suspect to pick up again as it would probably be more like a week or 2 than a whole month). If we were to use this same logic when suspecting Melmetal, who was tested in mid-March, meaning instead of a 2-ish months maximum we would be looking at a 4-ish month minimum, which is completely absurd. Another reason why I think it would be smart to wait is that it not only gives more time for possible counter strategies to develop, but is that knowing the nature of suspect bans in nearly any tier, if Kyurem is banned now it won't be unbanned until the next main series game drops years from now, if it's ever even let back in at all. This isn't just something we can decide and then say "let's see if we change our minds in a month or two". That just isn't how this works and we all know it. To say that we should only look at the here and now when making big decisions such as this can be a dangerous outlook in my opinion. I will 100% concede that the set you provided is powerful and very hard to counter, but who is to say that it won't be mitigated if we just be a bit more patient.
Also, to hit on the "it's gate keeping which types are usable in higher play point", this tier will always have some types that are just better than others. There's nothing that can or honestly should be done about that, as it would make the planning and prep that goes into building for this tier not as worthwhile if everything is completely equal. Building off that point, the same Tier Policy Guidelines referenced earlier state the following:
Also, if gate keeping types is such a concern now, I think Gen 5 mono and it's domination of weather reliant teams/c teams would like to have a quick word with you.
Tl;dr - If we really think that Kyu-B is overwhelming it would be smarter to wait until DLC hits so we can at least have a chance to see if it really is the mon that's unhealthy instead of Gen 8 mono's natural limited options. If it's still just as bad after that, then there should be no qualms in banning it then.
This method of thinking is flawed, smub was right about the DLC not being relevant to the suspect. What comes in two months has absolutely nothing to with a Pokemon being too broken for the current metagame. There is no reason to allow a pokemon that is deemed banworthy continue ruining the quality of the tier just because it "might be okay" in 2 months. If it would be fine in the DLC metagame, but was banned in this one, it can simply be unbanned/resuspected. In your post you make it sound like banning it now guarantees it being gone for the entire gen. This is completely wrong as the council can choose to reevaluate it, especially in a fresh metagame. Smogon policy "doesn't say this isnt the case" because this is a both a new situation and it should be obvious that tier decisions are made in the present tier.
Basically, this suspect is discussing if Kyurem-Black is broken NOW, not in 2 months. I hope no one makes the foolish mistake in using the future as a basis for their decision. If you think it's not banworthy, use arguments in the present tense.
As for your argument about it not being balanced or whatever. Equality doesn't ruin prep, it rewards better playing which is what a tier should aim for. Gen7 monotype is regarded as probably monotype's best because it was very balanced, with nearly every type being usable at a high level and having lots of neutral matchups, or at least not severely one-sided matchups. Prep is better in such a metagame because players need to use good teams and are more encouraged to have techs to surprise the opponent. Naturally, all types wont ever be equal in the metagame, but if a single Pokemon can decimate multiple types, not just those it would normally beat naturally, with little counterplay, then it deserves to be banned. Also, gen5 is not a good example in that argument as it was not tiered by a monotype council. Gen5 monotype is essentially Monotype OU as its only same-type clause on the OU tier. It uses OU's banlist and there was no council to make decisions independent of it.
As for my opinions on Kyurem-Black, I'm still organizing and am not entirely sure where I stand. I will probably post again another time for that. I just wanted to clear out some misconceptions. People shouldn't be using the future to tier the present.
Welp thanks to being quarantined for two weeks starting suspiciously before this suspect test I'll give a few thoughts on the mon.
The best way to look at it is right now in the metagame currently, and not looking ahead a month to next weeks DLC drop, there is always the chance that this DLC can have mons that drop Pokémon Monotype have previously banned (In this case Melmetal and possibly right now Kyu B) back into the fold
Right now its sheer power and options that make it tough to kill, and to wall. Even mons like Toxapex can have trouble if you forgo substitute for Earth power, which also hits Aegislash just as hard too. Right now by using Dragon and Ice a fair amount in this current metagame, I believe its really just too good for the current metagame. It allows it to just rip up most types with ease, and even mons that could protect themselves from its rampage for a turn (Mimikyu) cannot due to the fact Teravolt is in fact a thing.
But as said above in other posts the metagame is actually pretty 50 50 across the board with a good majority of types being unviable compared to others like Fairy, Steel, Psychic, Dragon, Ice, Ghost and Water. I agree on this thing possibly being banned now so we can review it later on in the future when the DLC mons come, right now its too strong in the metagame and is an absolute menace to the current metagame
A quick note about the whole "DLC" thing to where it's being used as an argument against banning Kyurem-B. There's two sides to it I feel. The side that should always be thought of first is "how impactful does this element have on the CURRENT metagame". I'll never not think of this first in regards to whether or not it's an argument to ban it, but often times the arguments against this thought are applied poorly and hold no merit on it's own. However, this generation presents us with the new challenge of having a meta that virtually changes entirely twice in the course of the year, disregarding future suspects or surprise drops and whatnot. The goal of any tiering policy, Monotype especially, is to have the most stable metagame possible with as much healthy elements as possible. We're fortunate to have the full variety of Pokemon at our disposal for not being a usage-based tier, to where instability of usage-based tiers can be rampant with quickdrops, quickrises, quickbans, and so forth; we're one of the closest things Smogon currently has towards a "stable" metagame. If we ban Kyurem-B now close to a month before the DLC supposedly drops and before MPL which should be the biggest time to develop a meta, and go over itself and possibly Melmetal too at a later time to be reviewed, when would Monotype have an opportunity for stability this year, and for how long?
Notice how I say "this year" instead of leaving it blank. The knowledge knowing that two DLC's will entirely change SS's meta and knowing that future suspect tests are likely to happen, Monotype has lost an entire year to try to develop the metagame in relative safety and has to wait until next year (barring any future DLC) to return to the stability that we've been accustomed to. If you believe that we should value the impact Kyurem-B has on the current metagame rather than wait for DLC to bring more Pokemon into the mix, then I urge you to vote Ban. If you value the brief periods of stability that Monotype has and that most usage based tiers value greatly, and would prefer to wait until there's greater opportunity for counterplay to develop post DLC drop, I urge you to vote no Ban. It's two sides to a coin in a current situation that is unprecedented for Smogon tiering in general, and being the only tier that has had the opportunity to formally suspect test two Pokemon (other tiers have either not been developed, quickbanned a majority of others, or suspect tested a mechanic), there's a greater gravity in arguments about banning a Pokemon now or in the future for the sake of stability.
I'm going to try to clear up a couple things here.
The job of deciding the appropriate time to tier a pokemon falls to the council. It does not fall to the voters. We all know that DLC is coming, yet keeping this in mind we voted for a suspect. We could have easily held this suspect back due to DLC coming soon, but there are other factors to this suspect, such as MPL coming up and DLC being possibly postponed due to corona. Regardless, the suspect is here and what is coming in the future should make no difference to voters now. We have decided to suspect Kyurem Black in this metagame, so the voting should be based on it's impact on the current metagame. Whether it is broken or not when DLC gets here is absolutely not the point and should not be taken into consideration at all. I urge you all to vote on whether you think Kyurem Black should be banned or not due to its presence in the current metagame, not any future one.
(TLDR: Forget about DLC and vote on KyB in it's present state)
Anyway, I'm glad people are thinking about the suspect prior to playing on ladder even if this thinking has been pretty flawed and slightly off topic... This was the reason we have given this thread a two day window in which people can discuss the suspect instead of jumping right into ladder. There wasn't enough thinking going into a suspect, while much of the thinking was done with the little experience you get from suspect ladder. Unfortunately the discussion spiraled into whether DLC should impact this decision or not... but I digress. A big issue I had with the melmetal suspect and other suspects in the past is how a decision would be made by a player solely based on their experience on ladder. This happened a lot more than usual with the melmetal suspect and I'm hoping it was due to people coming back after a break, right into laddering for a suspect and it doesn't happen as often in the future. The problem here is that people vote without fully understanding what a pokemon does in the metagame, and 45-50ish games on a pretty poor ladder does not give you an understanding of what a pokemon does. This can work in other tiers, where you will face the pokemon in question in a large portion of your games (ex: melmetal suspect in ou where melmetal was on a majority of teams). However, in the case of melmetal in monotype, out of 45 games, you might see a melmetal in 10 games if you are extremely lucky to face steel in 10/45 games. You can use it yes, but if everyone uses it, you are playing way too many mirrors and not getting any semblance of an idea of how it would affect the metagame overall. The objective of suspect laddering requirements are to show that you are qualified enough to vote, not that you make your mind up as you go. Obviously you can change your stance on it as you ladder, but the idea is you should be leaning towards one side or another before you start laddering, and you should be aware of the effects it has on the entire metagame, and not just the bits and pieces. For example you shouldn't be leaning ban because you use mainly poison and find yourself losing to Kyurem Black 9 out of 10 times, nor should you be leaning no ban because you use mainly fairy and ice and you have few issues with Kyurem Black teams.
(TLDR: Have an idea of what you want to vote before laddering, and more importantly know why)
Barring something drastic, I'm going to be voting no-ban on Kyurem Black. It is obviously a very strong pokemon but I don't think it's ban worthy. Kyurem isn't close to being overly centralizing, as most teams have natural checks and counters to it (keldeo/cloyster on water, scarf jirachi/gardevoir on psychic, dragapult/aegislash on ghost, tyranitar/bisharp/scarf Hydre on dark, ditto on normal, and more like this). There is natural counterplay on almost every type and you are almost never running anything super ridiculous to beat it. A rock weakness, along with an inconsistent stab in icicle spear and a low pp move in fusion bolt, gives almost all types quite a lot to work with in order to beat kyb and friends. KyB does require you to think long term, and to plan out your game from the beginning because allowing enough dragon dances can be devastating, but overall I think it promotes healthy gameplay and it should remain in the tier.
Hopefully you've all had enough time to gather your thoughts on why Kyurem-B should or should not be banned in SS Monotype in the current metagame. The laddering portion of the suspect test will now begin. Here are the rules:
In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 8] Monotype ladder in which Kyurem-B will continue to be allowed.
You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day the laddering portion of this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: KBG8 in order for your account to qualify. For example, I could sign up with an account named "KBG8 Decem" but I would not be able to vote by getting requirements with the account "Decem KBG8". You do not need to sign up in this thread.
The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 45 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks until Friday May 22nd at 11:59 PM EDT (GMT-4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Kyurem-B will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.
Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
If you have achieved voting requirements, a thread will be posted later on in the suspect which you can post a screenshot as proof that contains your requirements.
Happy laddering! You may still post your thoughts on Kyurem-B in the current metagame after the laddering stage has begun.
Remember the suspect ends on Friday May 22nd at 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4), so be sure to post your proof in that thread by then if you've gotten the requirements to vote.
I have a question regarding this suspect. How is the public supposed to know there is a Kyurem black suspect going on when it doesn't even show up in games on showdown? At least the ones that don't regularly visit the forums.
In any case, Kyurem Black exarcerbates mono's current diliemma with not having enough tools at it's disposal. That combined with Kyurem's new toys plus its attack stat and natural bulk makes Kyurem quite over bearing in certain instances in a meta that can have already limited team building.
I have a question regarding this suspect. How is the public supposed to know there is a Kyurem black suspect going on when it doesn't even show up in games on showdown? At least the ones that don't regularly visit the forums.
In any case, Kyurem Black exarcerbates mono's current diliemma with not having enough tools at it's disposal. That combined with Kyurem's new toys plus its attack stat and natural bulk makes Kyurem quite over bearing in certain instances in a meta that can have already limited team building.
Getting more folks to participate. Not everyone gets on the forums. Up till yesterday, people were still asking what the KBG8 tag was for even a week in. Thought it was odd, considering every other suspect and in different tiers have some sort of notice during the games.
Getting more folks to participate. Not everyone gets on the forums. Up till yesterday, people were still asking what the KBG8 tag was for even a week in. Thought it was odd, considering every other suspect and in different tiers have some sort of notice during the games.
yeah lol..it was like a 2-day notice but that was just on forums, it was advertised a little i guess- the gxe reqs. were up'd a bit more aswell, people are saying they wanna wait on dlc and what comes, and the suspect ladder isn't in future tense, its about how the mon is affecting the metagame currently, limiting types and forcing stuff like scarf flygon/dragapult which just gets bopped at +2. Kyu having access to dd is tremendous, along with quite a few going against the ban + reqs boosted + not a lot of people know about it, so i can see where your head is if your pro-ban, and also pro-noban (because of the awareness of the ladder) to "other" (non-smogon) players ...as compared to other tiers suspect ladder
I dont' disagree with anything you're saying. This suspect felt like it was initially kept for a limited amount of people. If i hadn't been on the forums, I would not have known about it. Now think of those who play but rarely ever get on the forums.
As for Kyurem, I am all for every team having as much access to all their types as possible giving the limited team building nature of monotype. I would also have preferred to wait for all the DLCs but right now i do believe that this mon is a bit much. Still, those who want to vote should be given the chance to vote. And it should've been advertised beyond the forums but that seems to be fixed now so no issues there.
Well, now that I've finally had the chance to get reqs after a week and a half of really annoying ladder (nothing new really), my stance hasn't changed on Kyurem-B. A strong Pokemon yes, but nothing that the metagame can't handle. If anything, I've seen more adaptation come for Kyurem-B over the course of this suspect based on the types of teams on ladder, mainly seeing much more Fairy/Ghost/Fighting/Fire teams, and much less Steel/Water teams, surprisingly (though ladder teams shouldn't necessarily be a main talking point for proper development). Regardless of counterplay by virtue of typings, Kyurem-B's just not as ridiculous as everyone is making it out to be.
After doing laddering for reqs, I can definitely see both sides of the discussion, because I can totally understand why you can get real annoyed with screens + kyu b spam. I personally seen wayyyyyy worse mons hang around in monotype over the years and if we could adapt to that, why not adapt to kyu b? I know Gen 8 isn't exactly the best we have played, but I don't wanna give up on it just yet, I think we can stick this thing out until DLC drops and maybe get the answers we need and ultimately make the meta much more enjoyable to play. That being said, I think screens + kyu b is really easy to pilot for ladder spam, but I think in competitive tournaments a strategy like that is easily prepared for and can be ripped apart easily, so I guess we will see how everyone thinks when voting goes out and the decision is made!
After what Crashy said regarding Kyu-B's influence in tournament play, I was curious about it and decided to do some research on Mono BLT IV, the first Monotype-based team tour of Sw/Sh. All the 16 replays where Kyu-B has been used can be found below.
From these, I'll briefly discuss the pertinent ones, because some don't have Kyu-B enter the field or use it as fodder, or just misplayed with it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1091551813 - Dragon v Psychic
In this game, Kyurem-Black was Choice Banded, a set which has not seen much use since due to the SubDD set outclassing it. One of the flaws is evident as it enters, where only getting 2 hits of Icicle Spear leave it unable to revenge Hatterene, while an Iron Head fails to OHKO when it comes back in. This set is interesting due to the sheer power of CB Kyu-B, but being locked into moves is a serious drawback.
252 SpA Duraludon Flash Cannon vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if the Dragon player chose to Flash Cannon, Kyu-B sets up Dragon Dance on the turn after Substitute and proceeds to sweep. However, an important facet of this victory is Kyu-B needing 3 hits against Duraludon and 4 hits against the mirror Kyu-B in order to sweep. The reliability of Icicle Spear, or lack thereof, does not guarantee this, which is a flaw of Kyu-B that keeps resurfacing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1095634389 - Dragon v Fairy
This game was selected due to the use of Screens Dragon, which is growing in popularity to provide Kyu-B with even more bulk to have the ability to set up Dragon Dances. While this archetype wasn't common in BLT, and it would've been interesting to further explore it, Kyu-B is still dogged by the same issue of not getting enough Spear hits to take out the opposing mon, Hatterene in this case.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1098274746 - Ice v Water
This game is moreso relevant for the absence of Kyu-B's influence, showing that Water would still be oppressed by Ice even if Kyu-B is banned due to the presence of Ninetales-Alola and Kyurem (the likely replacement, Cloy being the other option).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1102472617 - Ice v Ground
The second of two games where Kyu-B ends up sweeping, but requires Kyu-B to get 3 hits on Hippowdon to avoid being phased, as well as avoid an Iron Head flinch if the Ground player played optimally.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1112414935-w33b0d7uw8344df6h91huj54obofb6tpw - Ice v Poison
The final game of BLT, which brings out the nightmare scenario for any Kyu-B user; of the four times Spear is used, the rolls are 3 hits and 2 hits thrice. Again, Poison is a good MU for Kyu-B to put in work, but having your STAB move being of fluctuating effectiveness harms it a lot, especially on SubDD variants.
A set that was not used once this BLT is the Power Herb Kyu-B, which has Freeze Shock as a one-time move to take out checks like Weezing-Galar. While it would have been interesting to see it in action, studying the evidence has me leaning towards Kyu-B not being broken, and therefore not deserving a ban. Even types like Flying have ways to deal with it, such as Infiltrator Scarf Noivern. For me, Kyu-B only being able to sweep twice in 16 games, with caveats of Spear rolls, shows that while it is a threat, it is very much manageable.
I have held off making a post on my opinion until after I got reqs, unfortunately it took longer than planned so this is a bit last minute.
Like Flossed Over, I wanted to discuss BLT matches, since he covered it I'll just briefly go over it. When the suspect was first announced, I had decided to look at those replays to have "evidence that Kyurem-Black is broken", but instead they showed that Kyurem-Black is really not the threat it is made out to be. When it was announced to get DD and Icicle Spear, I thought it was instantly going to get banned, and even early on in its presence in tier it was seemingly dominant. However, BLT showed that while in theory this Pokemon is a complete monster, in practice its very manageable. Out of 16 games it was used in, the team with Kyurem-Black won a pathetic total of 5 games. Moreover, one of those had a Kyurem-Black on both sides, and in two others it was not used at all, and in another it only got one kill before dying. In terms of actual sweeps by it, there was only 1, or 2 if we count the time it was on both sides. Those 2 sweeps were both in naturally lopsided matchups, as it was a Kyurem-Black on Ice vs Ground and Dragon. On the other side, Kyurem-Black teams have lost to the following types in the tournament: Water, Psychic, Bug, Ground, Steel, Fairy, Poison. Coincidentally these are all types that have been mentioned by pro-ban voters, like Roxie's post earlier in the thread. Even types with natural weaknesses to it, like Water and Ground managed to win, Water even twice. This is evidence that the matchup isnt entirely one-sided. While there can be a lot to say about the "quality of plays" from the Kyurem-Black players in some of the matches, the point stands that Kyurem-Black most definitely can be beat, and does not contribute brainless clicking wins vs competent players.
To further expand on these ideas, I will be going through 3 of the main reasons to ban a Pokemon: 1. Constraints the metagame / forces the use of niche sets, 2. Has next to no checks and counters, 3. Is able to brainlessly decimate teams without repercussions. These points are all dependent on each other so the explanations overlap.
In terms of constraints on the metagame, Kyurem-Black does not force any type to use obscure sets. As Chaitanya pointed out in his post, the answers to Kyurem-Black are "natural" on most types. These are Pokemon and sets that would be good to use on the team regardless, and were not added solely for it. In fact, many of these were used before it was released, and they would continue to be used in a hypothetical post Kyurem-Black metagame. As such, this also replies the checks and counters points. As it clearly has a wide variety of answers in the metagame, which are available on almost every type. It would take a long time to go over every single types hypothetical situations, so instead I will focus on those mentioned by Roxie (Water, Ground, Poison, Flying, Grass, Dark, Fairy, Bug, and Psychic)
Water: Sticky Web, alongside Pokemon like Keldeo, Cloyster and Barbaracle, as well as Swift Swim users like Seismitoad are able to pressure Kyurem-Black teams. There is also priority users like Golisopod.
Obviously, none of these options are entirely fool proof ways to beat Kyurem-Black. Sticky Webs in particular is a "double-edged sword" as it being set can easily be taken advantage of. Nonetheless, they are able to do it if you play better versus your opponent. The Kyurem-Black user needs to be a relatively good player in order to win this matchup, it is far from autowin. From the following 2 BLT replays, we have evidence of this, against both Dragon and Ice, while the players using Kyurem-Black did make some fatal mistakes. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1089903718 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1107548353
Nonetheless, Water does have a horrendous matchup against it, there's no denying that. It is probably the biggest victim, however the key fact is that banning Kyurem-Black will NOT drastically change its position in these matchups. Regular Kyurem will give Water an extremely hard type as well, although there is no fear of a DD sweep. The Ice matchup would remain practically the same, however the Dragon one would be slightly improved, but not significantly enough.
Ground: Excadrill, Flygon, Rhyperior, Mamoswine, Hippowdon (to some extent)
Hippowdon provides the advantage that Kyurem-Black can't set up on it as long as its not the last Pokemon, but its not the greatest answer. Choice Scarf Flygon is able to revenge kill a +1 Kyurem-Black as long as its not behind Substitute. Excadrill can revenge kill it in Sand, again as long as there is no Substitute up. Mamoswine can take a hit and revenge kill, or kill a weakened one with Ice Shard. It is very easy for this mu to get residual damage on Kyurem-Black because of Stealth Rock (assuming no Heavy Duty Boots), Sand damage, and it needing Substitute to win vs other bulky Pokemon like Seismitoad or Gastrodon. The type has a lot of ways to break its Substitute, the Pokemon I mentioned, are all able to do it, and another can potentially revenge kill the following turn. Of course this isnt always the case because of the great screens support Kyurem-Black has on both its types. Lets look at some BLT replays for reference again. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1094511943-x4wwdrcswfbgay4fdrwygm6vxfw8u90pw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1102472617
Here, we see that Ground was able to handle it on Dragon fairly well, but on Ice it was not as easy. However, the Ground player did have a chance to win that game, it was far from being totally lopsided. Similarly to Water, Ground's matchup against these types wouldn't drastically be improved by the removal of Kyurem-Black. They will remain threatening with Kyurem, and their other threats like Cloyster and Dracovish.
Poison: Galarian Weezing, Gengar, easily toxic'd
Kyurem-Black is easily withered down in this matchup by Toxic / Toxic Spikes and Pokemon that prevent it from setting up like Galarian Weezing. It would also need to get 2 Dragon Dances (for Scarf, one for other sets), or a Substitute in order to beat Gengar. The main threat is definitely Galarian Weezing because it prevents Substitute and can potential burn it if it tries to set up without the Substitute up. Overall, Kyurem-Black struggles to be extremely effective in these matchups. It does get incredible support on both types, which can allow it to sweep but that comes down to the skill of the two players and not the nature of the Pokemon itself. Again, here's a reference BLT replay. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1112414935-w33b0d7uw8344df6h91huj54obofb6tpw
Flying: Noivern, Charizard, Hawlucha
While I previously said Water was the biggest victim, I wasn't thinking of Flying. This type definitely can get completely obliterated by Kyurem-Black but that isn't really due to Kyurem-Black, but more so that its just a bad type that would lose both those matchups regardless. Flying would struggle against Ice with or without it, and while Dragon matchup is slightly more manageable, its a far cry from being even. The type does have answers like Noivern which can bypass the effects of the screens and substitute to take it out, or severally damage it with Draco Meteor. Also, there is Charizard that can also kill it or do a lot of damage. Hawlucha can also word, but its more for a Kyurem-Black without any boosts.
Grass: Ferrothorn, Encore Whimsicott
Ferrothorn can prevent it from being able to setup with moves like Gyro Ball and Body Press. Whimsicott also completely shuts down the potential of a sweep with Encore, and can take it out with Moonblast. Similar to Flying, this isnt a particularly good type regardless of Kyurem-Black, and won't have a much better presence in the tier, or matchup against its types without it.
Dark: Encore Sableye, Hydreigon, Bisharp, Tyranitar (sorta), Grimmsnarl (sorta)
Sableye completely shuts down Kyurem-Black. If it decides to attack then it can be Will-O-Wisp'd, if it uses Substitute or Dragon Dance, then it gets Encore and becomes useless. Hydreigon is a good way to revenge kill it, as is Bisharp. Tyranitar and Grimmsnarl are ways to take it out as well, as long as its unboosted, which it should be thanks to Sableye. Dark can also manage to get it poisoned with stuff like Drapion. As someone who has played this matchup a fair bit, I really haven't seen Kyurem-Black be a huge threat to Dark teams.
Fairy: I'm honestly surprised this type was mentioned as one of the most suffering types. It's pretty difficult for Kyurem-Black to sweep here with Sticky Web, lots of Fairy-type STAB, Screens, fast Pokemon like Choice Scarf Gardevoir and Mimikyu and bulky Pokemon like Hatterene all being available. It definitely does not dominate the Fairy-type, regardless of its support on either type. Here's more reference to BLT. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1095634389 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1103790154
Bug: Sticky Web, Ribombee, Durant, Accelgor, Iron Defense Orbeetle (only "niche" set mentioned)
Bug is a pretty awful type and is not getting any better without Kyurem-Black in the tier. Regardless, it can handle it decently. It can slow it down with webs and offensively pressure it with Ribombee, Durant and Accelgor amongst others. Also, as seen in the BLT match in which this matchup occurred, it can struggle against Iron Defense Orbeetle. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1091621679
Psychic: Jirachi, Gardevoir, Hatterene, Mew
Choice Scarf Jirachi can outspeed it after a Dragon Dance, which it has trouble setting up against this type anyways. It then beats it with Iron Head. Choice Scarf Gardevoir does the same if it is unboosted. Hatterene is able to take a hit and set trick room or take it out if its sufficiently weakened. While the stall breaker Mew set prevents it from setting up and cripples it by burning it. The popular offensive Mew set can also threaten it with the combination of Dazzling Gleam and Vacuum Wave. This type also has many niche answers to it but I won't cover them. Nonetheless, Psychic definitely isn't extremely week to Kyurem-Black, regardless of the type. Again, we have BLT reference replays. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1095577681 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1091551813 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1103944952
With that breakdown, we see that Kyurem-Black isn't able to easily decimate teams. Nor does it greatly impact team structures in the metagame, as the answers are all Pokemon and sets that were used beforehand and would still be used regardless. It's definitely an extremely strong Pokemon in the tier which does have the potential to decimate teams but it is far from being unhealthy. It has shown to be manageable by nearly every type. Banning a Pokemon means that we are trying to make the metagame better and healthier, however banning Kyurem-Black won't have a significant enough impact to argue that those effects to the metagame would occur. For these reasons, I will be voting no ban. I understand the sentiment of people who do not like it in the tier, I personally was against it being in the tier early on until I really sat down and looked at it.
On a side note, it's really disappointing that this thread is only a page (or 2 if mine makes a new one). Even though today is the last day to get reqs, I hope we can get a few more posts and informed discussions on both sides of the argument so that people can better decide. We definitely need more knowledgeable players to discuss the topic, especially from the council members of which only 1 posted here.
and I may not be hitting key points (someone can explain better if they are Pro-Ban). I am not relying on DLC to "see what comes"
