Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

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So many broken Pokémon are coming back to OU tomorrow but i want to talk about a different Uber that I don't think is broken at all:

:necrozma-dawn-wings:

Necronala (as ill call it) is a Pokémon with acceptable bulk, a good ability and good offenses. I mean is a box legendary, it has good stats. So why do I think it is garbage?

Well, for starters it has awful speed (77 base), making it only either a slow wallbreaker or a defensive mon. What's more, it has a TERRIBLE defensive typing in Ghost/Psychic, which leaves it with two x4 weaknesses (to very common offensive types in ghost and dark) and only two resistances (to average offensive types in poison and psychic) and admittably two immunities (to normal which is kinda useless and fighting which is good). Not only that, but since it only has Necrozma's movepool it has no good recovery and no way of hitting common dark types like Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Urshifu or the less common Hydreigon. Although I guess no Pursuit does help it, think its huge weaknesses outshine its strengths in my opinion.

TL;DR Necronala is an offensive Pokémon with low speed and horrible typing both offensively and defensively, making it a ghost type that would be outclassed by other ghosts like the omnipresent Dragapult, Aegislash, the less seen Gengar and the incoming Blacephalon, thus making it in my eyes a Pokémon that does not deserve its Uber status by any means (tbh i dont think itd be even ou if it were to drop).
lol moongeist beam and photon geyser, the ability to decimate slower teams, the ability to even run stone edge if it wants to break Mandi, and you want to unban it?
 

Éric

I never accept rns
is a Pre-Contributor
lol moongeist beam and photon geyser, the ability to decimate slower teams, the ability to even run stone edge if it wants to break Mandi, and you want to unban it?
0 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 159-187 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HK
The only thing this does is pp stall roost while you die to life orb or whatever. Also what does it having moongeist beam and photon geiser do to keep it banned if everything of what i said is still true (i think at least)
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Instead of jumping on the Necrozma-DW Unban-Theory, I'd rather want to discuss something about the current metagame, with it I mean the potent Pokemon in :dragapult:, :excadrill:, and :tyranitar:. Whereas the former two had always seen incredible usage during the start'til now in the game, the letter of these 3 found itself in an umpromissing stage for a brief amount of time.

But with the thrive of Volcarona and with the SpDef-Support-Set of Tyranitar it came back in OU and I think this set currently is the best Tyranitar-set as it can help with checking Volcarona, it can offer utility with setting up Stealth Rocks and Thunder Wave gives it an incredible tool, which handles a lot of the faster metagame staples and helps with some full paralysis here and there to be not only annoying but also helpful. It's partner in Excadrill is extremely potent under the sand, and I feel like Sand is the best weather-reliant-playstyle currently. I think Tyranitar found its place as a great metagame staple with its best buddy Excadrill.

Dragapult whereas was always great and is still great with a bumping usage in both Snake Draft and OLT. It's best Set is the Mixed one right now with serving as a great tool for many teams, Thunder Wave / Will-o-Wisp cripples many Pokemon, Thunder Wave first and foremost helps to check Volcarona, with Dragon Darting it down in the process, as Dragapult still serves as a great check even when Volcarina is at +1 due to its boosting-move in Quiver Dance. Hex is amazing as ever with the increase of annoying status-moves therefore Dragapult has it as easy as ever to spread out a huge damage with Hex.

Another great pairing is :Rillaboom:, :Magnezone:, and :Hawlucha: as that combination serves as a great offensive tool against many teams, which have Skarmory and Corviknight, they have to run Shed Shell to escape Magnezone, but without it, they lack the longevity due to Leftovers in the long course of the game. Which makes Magnezone a great Partner for Rillaboom and Hawlucha, to remove these defensive threats for these two.

Another Pokemon i'd like to discuss is :Urshifu: (Single-Strike) with the Bulk Up-Set. It has found it's way on a lot of teams which are highly offensive, such as Finchinators team, which he used against Leo in a Snake Game (Week 5). I think this Set is really successful with Wicked Blow and Sucker Punch beating Pokemon such as Zeraora, choice-locked Pokemon without access to Trick, and also weakened faster threats towards the endgame.

Last but not least :Aegislash:, Aegislash is getting better again as its Usage has risen again recently and with the Spell Tag-Set and the Choice Specs-Set (which are the best two Sets currently in my option) it can really work great as an offensive Pokemon, beating Clefable, weakening Mandibuzz, and not many Pokemon can come in on it unpunished as most Pokemon take a huge chunk of damage from both Sets.

These are some things I've noticed in the recent weeks overall. Perhaps someone else here has some input about these and other Mons before we get DLC2. I would like to hear some thoughts on them and thanks for reading that wall of text.
 
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Another Pokemon i'd like to discuss is :Urshifu: (Rapid-Strike) with the Bulk Up-Set. It has found it's way on a lot of teams which are highly offensive, such as Finchinators team, which he used against Leo in a Snake Game (Week 5). I think this Set is really successful with Wicked Blow and Sucker Punch
uhh Rapid Strike is the Water/Fighting form with Surging Strikes and Aqua Jet. Did you mean Single Strike here?
 
Just out curiosity. Why is Kyurem-B dropping to OU after DLC 2, but Kyurem-W isn't? Now that Kyurem-B has access to Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear, I'd say it is better than the Kyurem-W counterpart.
 
Just out curiosity. Why is Kyurem-B dropping to OU after DLC 2, but Kyurem-W isn't? Now that Kyurem-B has access to Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear, I'd say it is better than the Kyurem-W counterpart.
Kyurem-W is universally regarded as superior because its higher attacking stat is Special Attack, which means it can use both STABs effectively, unlike Kyurem-B which has to rely on the inconsistent icicle spear. Plus, there are going to be very few ice resists that can stand up to Kyurem-W's specs Freeze Dry.

Edit: Kyu-W also runs Earth Power for Heatran, and can also decide to anti-offense effectively with a Choice Scarf set, while Kyu-B will likely only have Boots DDance sets.
 
lol moongeist beam and photon geyser, the ability to decimate slower teams, the ability to even run stone edge if it wants to break Mandi, and you want to unban it?
0 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 159-187 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HK
The only thing this does is pp stall roost while you die to life orb or whatever. Also what does it having moongeist beam and photon geiser do to keep it banned if everything of what i said is still true (i think at least)
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings has way better methods than Stone Edge to bypass Mandibuzz.

252+ SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 286-338 (67.6 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 494-582 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even Urshifu isn't safe at all.
252+ SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 156-184 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

Freeing Necrozma-DW in a metagame without Pursuit is frankly pure folly to me, and to begin with there should have been MORE Pokémon in the initial Crown Tundra banlist, not less than there already are.
 
I feel like Zamazenta-C would make brainless hard switching + PP stalling, too OP. Its impossible to kill with wishport users, rain, grassy terrain and etc.
And it still can have good speed to take out glass cannons weak to its stabs. It's kind of like Giratina or Lugia in OU.
What wishport users? Wishport clef, which is a set it is very hard pressed to run with Urshifu in the meta. Wishport Blissey, which is 100% illegal. If we were able to unban just Z-C and not Z-H then yes definitely 100%, even if you do think it's broken it's debatable enough to where it deserves to be unbanned.

Edit: Maybe we can just unban Zm-C because "there's no in-game form change?" I'm still hopeful, but i'm unsure so this is all i will comment for now. Council, please consider unbanning Zm-C sometime in the future.
 
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ausma

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I think you guys are all jumping the gun far too much.

We are about to get plagued with an incredibly chaotic, arguably even more tumultuous meta with the incoming returns of many top OU threats, many of which are banworthy in their own right. It is absolutely not the time to be discussing possible unbans of other Pokemon to make things even more chaotic, especially when we have no valid grounds to test these claims when the meta that we know right now is very likely about to radically transform in an instant, no matter what is ultimately quickbanned or suspected. In other words: there is no way we can tell if anything will be broken or not, and it's not at all the time to speculate on if things (especially Necrozma Dawn Wings/Zamazenta, no less) should be unbanned in a meta that we can merely only speculate upon for the meantime.

I feel most of the propositions being made seem good on paper due to their performances and weaknesses in Ubers, but frankly, these do not work as arguments either. It's important to consider that the Ubers metagame is, at its core, a playable banlist, and that their execution and downsides in Ubers are at their core negligible and meaningless since it's meant to contain them from a metagame that otherwise prioritizes balance.

If I'm honest, I feel we should be looking more at what unbans have been already made, and in what ways they'll fare in the metagame. I'll start that discussion:

----

:ss/landorus:

I think Landorus is still gonna be far too much, especially with the loss of Hidden Power to check it more readily on the Special side. The metagame, defensively, is not really equipped to take on its gauntlet of Sheer Force-boosted coverage, and I'm definitely for trying it, but I imagine it isn't going to be lasting long whatsoever.

:ss/genesect:

genesect funne u-turn moment go brbbrrntntnt

:ss/blaziken:

Blaziken, to me, is the most interesting case. Although I feel it will still definitely be broken, I'm intrigued to see how it will fare in a Toxapex/Landorus-T infested metagame without Z-moves and Hidden Power Ice. It does have access to Close Combat, which is a definite improvement as far as Fighting-type STAB goes, though I feel Earthquake + Fire-type STAB holds a bit more ground in terms of neutral coverage. It'll be interesting to see, but I think it'll still be too much.

:ss/zygarde:

Zygarde is another odd case, as losing Z-moves really annoys it. Though, the Dexit and HP Ice's removal also really helps it out defensively, giving it more profound setup opportunities. I can imagine Sub + DD will be particularly strong, as Tangrowth will likely become setup fodder as opposed to a once reliable check. I think it has a shot, but I think it overall improved from last generation due to these indirect defensive buffs.

:ss/pheromosa:

The gain of Close Combat alleviates a lot of the risk involved with High Jump Kick and gives it a much more reliable Fighting-type STAB, and as an offensive pivot, it absolutely loves Heavy Duty Boots. It isn't really hurt by the Hidden Power loss, though, as it still has access to Ice Beam to throttle things like Lando-T and Zygarde, which I think will almost always be run. I think Phero will still be too much as well, though.

:ss/melmetal:

This thing wasn't busted before imo, and with the return of Zapdos and co., it will undoubtedly be fine in my eyes.

:ss/magearna::ss/cinderace:

I'm admittedly kind of mixed on these two, but I think Magearna could possibly still be too much with its still unmatched set versatility and execution.

Though, Cinderace is fairly annoyed by the additional options in the metagame to interfere with its pivoting shenanigans, so I think it will probably be ok. I think Cinderace's Bulk Up set is probably losing viability due to Landorus-T's return, leaving U-Turn + 3 Attacks to become by far the most superior set. It'll be interesting to see how these two fare.

With the return of Lando-T, Zygarde, and Garchomp, Ice-type coverage is now pretty important again, and I think we'll be seeing the impacts of Hidden Power's removal a lot more in this coming shift as well. I can imagine things like Slowbro coming back into prominence (if the Tapus get eliminated) sometime down the line partially for this reason.

Overall, though, I'm super excited for these shifts, and I cannot wait to experiment and see what ends up shining!
 
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