Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

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TPP

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With Magearna being tested and banned and Cinderace being quickbanned, the metagame is about to change drastically and I wanted to make a new thread to discuss the new metagame. I'll try and leave some info below on the mons that were affected by both of them. I'll put things into 3 categories. The first of which is if that mon was capable of switching directly into Magearna or Cinderace. The second one is if that mon could come in, outspeed and revenge kill/force out Magearna or Cinderace. Finally, the last group is a list of mons that could give Magearna or Cinderace an opportunity to switch in or be pivoted into.

For Magearna:

Mons that could switch into Magearna:

Mons that could revenge kill Magearna:

Mons that Magearna could switch into and/or force out:


For Cinderace:

Mons that could switch into Cinderace:

Mons that could revenge kill Cinderace:

Mons that Cinderace could switch into and/or force out:


1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage?
2. Which mons (if any) do you think will be overhyped and have their usage skyrocket initially before dying down after a few days/weeks?
3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned?
4. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna is banned?
5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Cinderace is banned?
6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans.
7. What playstyle/type of teams lost the most from the bans?
8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
9. Feel free to let me know if there's anything I missed or incorrectly added above. Feedback is always welcome.
10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!

Zarude is now available!
August usage stats
September usage stats
 
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Finchinator

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1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage?
Volcarona will become the most common Fire type and has one less offensive check, Ferrothorn can finally fit into defensive cores and has one less offensive check / competing Steel type, and Slowbro now cannot get suffocated by Magearna and U-Turn Cinderace while it also isn’t held back as much by Pex, which is slightly less needed without Fleur Cannon spam. Oh and Alakazam is now one of the better fast Pokémon and doesn’t have to worry about Magearna defensively while Crawdaunt now has less competition as a breaker and one less soft offensive check.

3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned?
Amoonguss for Magearna and perhaps Hippowdon for Volt immunity and Cinderace. Both will still be solid tho.

6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans.
Bulky offense is finally possible with less specific defensive cores being forced down our throats.

8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
pex.

10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!
You too
 
What mons do you believe will see increased usage?
I think Alakazam can see higher usage, since it can no longer get revenge killed by Cinderace and forced out by Magearna. Tangrowth for the same reasons.
How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna is banned?
I believe the metagame will be healthier, since Magearna and Cinderace heavily centralize the metagame around them. Now that they’re gone, I believe the balance of power can shift to something else.
Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
I believe Urshifu-S. Now that Magearna is gone, Urshifu-S loses one of its rivals in the metagame. Cinderace was also able to revenge kill it with HJK, and with both of them gone, Urshifu-S is going to be a central figure in the metagame. Due to this, I see Dragapult and Zeraora returning to the spotlight.
 
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1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage?
Mons that fell into the "X could force out / switch in on" category here will definitely for sure see a surge in usage. Now that one of their most prominent counters/checks are purged from the metagame, which suppressed their viability (take Scizor for instance), they have much more freedom to be ran without needing extremely high amounts of support.

However, that's not the biggest winner here (or at least not yet). The mons that benefitted the most from these changes imo are mons that fell under both categories of mons Magearna put a stop to and mons Cinderace put a stop to. Namely, I speak for Tangrowth, Togekiss, and Skarmory. These 3 have benefitted a lot from the banishment of Pop Metal Waifu and the #1 Public Enemy Magearna and Cinderace, particularly Togekiss and Tangrowth. Although both still have Kyurem to give them a run for their money, the fact that their 2 most prominent counters are gone really benefits them more over anything else imo.
2. Which mons (if any) do you think will be overhyped and have their usage skyrocket initially before dying down after a few days/weeks?
It's definitely going to be Rhyperior. Why? Let me explain here. Rhyperior carries almost no merit whatsoever due to its piss-poor special defense and speed leaving it open to be killed by the resident strong special wallbreakers here in OU, and I don't think I forgot that shit defensive typing at all, did I?

Mamoswine I don't need to explain at all, Scizor possibly seeing a boost in usage means that now Mamo has more going against it now that there's a way to reliably revenge kill it in Scizor, in addition to everything going against it beforehand.
3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned?
To be honest anything that fell into the category of mons that "could switch in on Magearna/Cinderace or mons that could revenge kill Magearna/Cinderace". Not gonna list anything in specific detail b/c I don't play OU that often, but something to note here is that I think Terrakion will likely be the biggest victim of these 2 bans.

Not only is it outclassed by Urshifu, but also it simply cannot check much at all and its merits here don't matter anymore.
4. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna is banned?
5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Cinderace is banned?
These 2 questions are the same thing so uhhhh.... yeah. Anyways, now you're no longer forced to pack extremely specific defensive cores on certain teams, which opens the door to archetypes like bulky offense. You also are no longer forced to pack specific checks to these mons and have a lot more freedom as to what mons you would need.
6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans.
Question #5.
10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!
Thank you, and I hope you do as well.

Not answering anything past #7 onwards because once more I don't play OU that much.
 
4. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna is banned?
5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Cinderace is banned?
...
8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
9. Feel free to let me know if there's anything I missed or incorrectly added above. Feedback is always welcome.
10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!
I think now that both Magearna and Cinderace the meta is going to get much more cancerous and stally. Cinderace really didn't need to get banned - it wasn't any sort of major major problem and there was plenty to counter it. Even a Zen on Toxapex doesn't do that much. There were plenty of counters, and I think banning it was a big overreaction, ESPECIALLY with Magearna gone, since one of Cinderace's favorite targets was Magearna and it's now gone. It would have dropped in usage this month with no Magearna (not by much, but enough to not have it be considered a really big issue). Even any kind of Dragapult that's not Choiced can take it out pretty easily with TWave or Substitute.

Toxapex is a really big problem now in the meta - without something like Zapdos, Thundurus, or Tapu Koko/Lele, your only definitive answers for it are something like Alakazam or Magnezone. And both of those are very easy to answer with defensive switch-ins, and will eventually break down as the stall fight lingers on. I think Toxapex really needs to go and wait in Ubers until the new DLC drops and we can have more answers for it. Magearna was one of the only things that could really do a good job against it and still be very useful in many other ways (granted it was a bit too good, and that's why it's banned).

Have a nice day too!
 
alakazam and weavile both look a lot better rn. the bloated defensive utility of mage is gone, zam doesn't get revenged by sucker punch, and mandibuzz is gonna be a lot easier to use with mage gone, and on many builds, very important due to the presence of urshifu, which was threatened by both mons that got banned; this offensive core heavily takes advantage of it. a swords dance weavile+nasty plot alakazam team could work pretty well. both are fast mons that together threaten a large amount of the fat that had to worry about cinder's coverage- amoonguss, tangrowth, ferrothorn, clef- can get worn down by this core, and in particular, the pressure of both of them can force toxapex into a bad position. people aren't super prepared for zam right now from what i've seen, with so much stuff running physdef just to check shifu, and the chans just get shat on by weavile. mamoswine is also a good option, probably, if you want sheer wallbreaking power at the cost of getting stopped by faster threats; ironically i think it has a better matchup against rotom-h, which is still great even with mage gone, and especially since it doesn't get revenge killed by cinderace so easily. even though it's faster, it doesn't enjoy taking a banded knock, overheat doesn't 2hko, and it stops volt in its tracks.

give weavile technician, you cowards
 
Was mandibuzz with foul play and roost not a reliable counter to cinderace? I agree that cinderance and magerarna were overpowered, though got to wonder if urshifu will have to be banned next now, as it's also somewhat broken offensively though not as widely used. pex is also way too annoying and can slowly cripple your entire team if played correctly. taking out hyper offensive pokemon will make it even more problematic.
 
8. I'd really, really like to see a Pex suspect. It absolutely warps the meta around itself in a suffocating manner and I think we have all just internalized it. It would also be a suspect with an actual uncertain outcome, unlike the past two which have been forgone conclusions. We are just more conservative in testing defensive mons compared to offensive things (see how long it took to test Gen 6 Mega Sabeleye). We lose two pivots that could at least generate momentum against brainless regenerator spam.
 
1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage?

All of these mons benefit immensely from these bans :heracross: :weavile: :scizor: :alakazam: :toxapex: :clefable: :mandibuzz: :rotom-heat: :rillaboom: :kommo-o: :corviknight: :skarmory:
2. Which mons (if any) do you think will be overhyped and have their usage skyrocket initially before dying down after a few days/weeks?

Look I hate to be the guy to say it, just look at my dp :volcarona: . Aside from my boy, I also think the bi-pedal rhino and ice-dragon will be overhyped :rhyperior: :kyurem:
3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned?

Now that Cinderace is gone, it's best check should go down in usage :Hippowdon: , also :Excadrill: and​
4/5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna and Cinderace is banned?

It's honestly hard to say at this stage, I think it will get generally get bulkier and slower now though.​
6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans.

I think Sun will continue to see increased usage, it's honestly very good, better than I have ever seen it. I think that the bans help it in terms of relative power, with other playstyles losing key members I also think that Rain has gotten a bit better, as Magearna was able to just dismantle Rain if given half an opening. Outside of these niche-ish teams, Stall just held a party to celebrate these bans.​
7. What playstyle/type of teams lost the most from the bans?

Balance has lost some of the best breakers in the tier, one of which had a ridiculously good defensive typing for team synergy. I would argue they have lost the most, but will ultimately be replaced by new best options. HO has also lost a damned solid pivoter in Cinderace. Though less relevant, it is also worth mentioning that TR has lost one of its better abusers.​
8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
:toxapex: :urshifu:
Pex in particular seems like it will become potentially unhealthy now. It's gotten to the point where I don't build balance teams without it on them. It just patches up my terrible teambuilding too effectively. Admittedly it does have competition for the bulky water slot on my teams. Urshifu is also potentially troublesome, but to a lesser extent in my mind. That being said, I'll leave this to people who understand the game better than I.​
9. Feel free to let me know if there's anything I missed or incorrectly added above. Feedback is always welcome.

TPP you're a gem, I don't think you've missed anything. I would love to see further surveys in future is my only feedback.​
10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!

Thank you, have a nice day yourself and stay safe! Good luck to everybody laddering for OLT.​
 
Why wasn't Mag quickbanned then?
I think the problem was they didn't want to do a second suspect right away for Cinderace, and realized they had to make a decision on it right now.

In retrospect, the right move would have probably been to suspect CInderace and quickban Magearna, not the other way around, but it was too late to do that now. It was either quickban Cinderace or let it sit in the tier for a while. Which, honestly, I think is fine to let it sit in the tier with Magearna gone, and a quickban was not necessary. Everyone is too quick to act against offensive mons, but are more delayed in realizing when defensive mons are a problem (There were four S Rank OU mons prior to this: Magearna, Cinderace, Toxapex, and Clefable. Guess which two are gone now and which two stayed?)
 
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Finchinator

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Why wasn't Mag quickbanned then?
This belongs in the SQSA thread, but it was explained in TDK’s post here. Basically, we wanted more time to evaluate Cinderace and we knew we could act more justifiably on it with the time the suspect took whereas Magearna was a very clear cut suspect given how much we saw. It also makes sense given the timeline of both rising to prominence.

The above post neglects to consider that Magearna was broken from the second people started using Specs — about a week in — whereas it took a while for people to begin using Uturn 4A Cind, which was clearly what broke it. That timeline is really important here.
 
Well, I did not expect Race to get quickbanned. I personally don't think it warranted a quick ban, although I can see the logic of why the council did so. Still, might as well get down to business.

1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage?
3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned?
8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!
1.
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I personally feel that Rilla and Zam were the two biggest winners of the bans. Rilla's standard sets were pretty much hard-walled by Gear, while Race couldn't be revenge killed by Grassy Glide without prior damage. Zam, meanwhile, also struggled with a lot of Gear's sets, while Libero Sucker Punch meant that Zam had to be very careful in order to not die. These mons both struggled over their inability to hit Gear, so removing it in particular will be a boon for their effectiveness. However, I think the mons that have the most to gain as a whole are defensive mons; Chansey was a good Gear check, but could easily be crippled by Choice-Trick; Gear happened to be the only natural OU Special attacker with this capability besides Heattom, so Chansey (and to a lesser extent, its evo) are overall more solid as special walls, while no longer having a strong physical attacker in Race that can blow through them easily. Clefable is more obvious; Gear singlehandedly knocked it from top usage, so its removal will naturally allow it to rise back up. Scizor mainly gets better from the aftermath and the other mons that improve, as it is a great check to non-Fire coverage Clef, revenge kills Zam once Sash is broken and can cripple the eggs with Knock Off.

3.

The only mon that stands out as worse off to me is Heattom, as it was probably the most reliable Gear check. Heattom doesn't really fear anything bar Aura Sphere or Focus Blast, so Gear usually couldn't threaten it without a fair amount of boosts. Heattom still has things to offer OU, being a Rotom Appliance and blasting through Ferro in Race's place, plus its variety between NP, Defog, or Choice-Trick, but losing a meta superstar that it usually checked does sting a bit.

8.
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At present, Toxapex and Darkshifu are the only ones I can really see being problematic. These two have already been discussed on these forums, but to reiterate: Pex has stood out as an increasingly problematic mon ever since this gen rid us of Megas, Z moves and most of the mons who could reliably kill it. It packs insane bulk, an ability that effectively nullifies hazard chip, a Toxic immunity that makes beating it with passive damage next to impossible, and various important support moves such as Scald, Knock Off and Haze which only make it even harder for many mons to kill it. Really, the problem I and a lot of people have with Pex is how restrictive it can be to teambuilding, with offensive mons often living or dying solely by their ability to handle Pex, a restriction that no other defensive mon really inflicts. This is also seen by how various mons will run niche moves just to hit Pex; Cinderace itself often packed Zen Headbutt solely for the chance to 2HKO Pex. There are still other examples, such as Psychic Volcarona and Thunderbolt Gengar which exist largely to potentially bypass Pex. Pex's best overall counter, Reuniclus, is potentially viable in OU but only really works on certain teams (plus it doesn't like the other mon I'll be discussing in this section). As such, I feel we should at least look at Pex before Crown Tundra drops.

Darkshifu, meanwhile, has proven to be a very divisive mon among the community. While its typing and lacking Special bulk mean getting it in isn't always easy, when it does get in Shifu can easily tear holes in almost every mon in the tier; even physically bulky mons like Hippowdon and Tangrowth can't stand up to repeated Wicked Blows. WB is the main reason it is seen as problematic by some, as it is effectively a base 120 power STAB move with no inherent drawbacks that also ignores attack drops. It also packs a nuclear Close Combat, U-turn to evade any actually dangerous matchups, and Poison Jab/Iron Head to blow through seemingly good checks like Bold Clefable (although Clef can't always switch into WB either). Of course, its drawbacks are significant enough that I don't think it's necessarily broken like Pex is; OU has many faster offensive threats who can revenge kill (Darkshifu is usually Banded and its Speed is- okay), its Fairy weakness is primed to be exploited and even WB is nerfed if it gets Burned on the switch. Still, its ability to nullify almost anything defensively is something that should definitely be kept in mind and could easily be enough to warrant a ban. Lastly, given how heated a certain back-and-forth got on the last thread, please try to stay civil when discussing Darkshifu so as not to derail discussion; trust me, I didn't call it divisive for nothing.

10. Aw, thank you!

Overall, I'm not sure how much the meta will shift with these two bans; I think a lot of the mons that were good still are and those that weren't probably won't be making that much of an impact even with Gear and Race gone. The only mon I particularly see rising in rank due to this would be Weavile, another offensive mon that hated Gear, but I can't say for sure if that will let it become proper OU since a lot of OU mons still pressure it heavily, including the two problematic mons I listed.
 
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1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage? Some of the mentioned ones already like Alakazam , Ferrothorn , and Slowbro seem to have gotten better now. I really kinda expect but not much as well a rise of Reuniclus who really just destroys majority of fat and balances team right now and really appreciated the banned.
2. Which mons (if any) do you think will be overhyped and have their usage skyrocket initially before dying down after a few days/weeks? Probably Scizor and like Volcarona as well. Marowak-Alola maybe tho tbh the hype of him is already dying down.
3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Amoonguss and Hippowdon are the first to come in mind being really solid switchins to their respective mon they were checking , tho they will still be good picks still tbh.
4. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna is banned?
5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Cinderace is banned?
Don't know where the fire is going to get bad this time , so don't really know what to expect besides like to see what olt brings to us.
6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans. Stall is a big winner here with these banned , and Bulky offense seems like a really nice as well.
7. What playstyle/type of teams lost the most from the bans? HO took a hit on this with set up Magearna in screens as well as losing a solid pivoter being Cinderace.
8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one. I'm looking at you Thapex
10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame! Same to everyone and good luck to all those in OLT
 

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Instead of answering every question, I'll look at the winners and losers of both the Magearna and cinderace ban using pokemon from the current viability rankings that are S through B- rank.
Winners of Magearna Ban
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Dragapult was a pokemon that couldn't do much to mag other than fire blast or cripple it with TWave, as it feared specs fleur. Now, one less check to it makes pult even better. Clefable didn't appreciate running spDef to avoid kills from Mags flash cannon. It can now invest more into PhysDef for dealing with Urshifu. Pokemon such as slowbro, mandibuzz, kommo-o, and tangrowth all appreciate having a strong attacker that can beat them gone. Tangrowth in particular no longer needs an assault vest set and can deal with urshifu better. Hydreigon struggled to beat it, requiring flamethrower and that didn't even kill sometimes. Zam now looks to be the best special attacker in the tier following mags departure, as mag could also resist it's attacks and heavily damage it. This also applies to pokemon like gengar, kyurem, magnezone, and aegislash, in the former gets better due to it's great ability to beat common balance cores, while the latter 3 were completely outclassed by mag as a special attacker and steel type, but with mag gone these all should rise a bit. Rillaboom is one of the biggest beneficiaries from the ban, as mag resisted it's main attacks like grassy glide, knock off, and u turn, but now it no longer needing to run high horse power for mag and can diversify it's movepool more.
Losers of Magearna Ban
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Exacdrill and rotom-heat, while very good, should see a drop in usage due to them no longer being needed to check mag. Toxapex was a solid check to set up variants of mag, but it will stay as dominant as ever. Blissey and Chansey were good checks to mag despite getting screwed by trick, so while still good they drop a bit. Volcarona was another check who will still be very good, so it isn't even a loser tbh. Alolawak was on the decline already, but no longer being able to check mag makes it not worth using too much anymore. Sun also has been weakened, as mons like charizard were great offensive counterplay to mag. Sun still is very good, so not too much of a loss. Not many of these mons suffer too much from the loss of mag with the exception of alolawak.
Winners of Cinderace Ban
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Drill got screwed if it wasn't using a sash, so the mole gets even better. Clef lost to cinderace carrying gunk shot, so this mon will now even get more usage (like it didnt ahve high already). Volcarona appreciates another method of offensive counterplay to it gone, while ferrothorn, corviknight, tangrowth, kyurem, magnezone, scizor, and aegislash all appreciate having this mon gone as cinderace shit on all of them. Urshifu is now the premier physical mon of the tier, though it kinda looses a bit as teams can prepare for it better now. Rillaboom gets even better now that it doesn't have to worry about gunk shot, u turn, or pyro coming from cinderace. All these mons are very good and will get better, while mons like aegislash, scizor, and kyurem will begin to make a comeback after these bans.
Losers of Cinderace Ban
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Dragapult was a mon that could outspeed cinderace and kill it, only fearing the uncommon sucker punch. Still good, barely affected by this ban. Pex, while still stupidly good, lost a great pokemon to check in cinderace. Wont fuckin matter to this poison shit however, as it will still fuck your shit. Mandibuzz and hippo were great checks to it, and while not being as important they are still great pokemon to use. Azumarill and crawdaunt were great revenge killers to cinderace so they'll fall off a bit. The rain archetype will suffer a bit as it was one of the best ways to kill the buuny. Bulky waters are particular are screwed though. Quagsire, mantine, and gastro all were great checks to cinderace, but now that it's gone and with rillaboom on the rise, these bois are screwed. Alolawak and rhyperior were also mons that could live a hit from cinderace and kill it back, so their viability has been hampered a bit.
Now, to answer some of TPP's questions.

2. Which mons (if any) do you think will be overhyped and have their usage skyrocket initially before dying down after a few days/weeks?]
Scizor, still kinda cheeks, but is good at revenge killing stuff like rillaboom, alakazam, and kyurem who will be on the rise. Volcarona will also be a mon that people will begin to think its problematic, but soon they'll realize it's fine.
6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans.
Stall definitely, thank goodness we still have urshifu to eliminate stall.
8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
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- Fuck the pex, too damn good as a defensive mon. I could see this being dealt with after the cinderace retest or even before it as I think it constrains teambuilding too much.
 
In all of this, I'd like to highlight salazzle quite possibly being on the rise as an adaption to the metagame. Rillaboom seeing more play is a good thing for salazzle, as grassy terrain plus boots gives it actually decent longevity even with its piss poor defenses, while being able to easily revenge kill opposing Rillaboom given its 4x resist to grass. I see it as sort of a replacement for cinderace, sharing a close speed tier and coverage. In the place of zen headbutt, a Salazzle can just run toxic, dealing a fatal blow to things like Toxapex without any heal bell support. Its main weakness is heal bell support however, so Chansey can easily switch in and just heal bell it away, so if stall is on the rise, salazzle with be utterly useless. Of course we still have to wait for everything to play out, and I probably missed a few things, but these are just my projection for the mon.
 
In all of this, I'd like to highlight salazzle quite possibly being on the rise as an adaption to the metagame. Rillaboom seeing more play is a good thing for salazzle, as grassy terrain plus boots gives it actually decent longevity even with its piss poor defenses, while being able to easily revenge kill opposing Rillaboom given its 4x resist to grass. I see it as sort of a replacement for cinderace, sharing a close speed tier and coverage. In the place of zen headbutt, a Salazzle can just run toxic, dealing a fatal blow to things like Toxapex without any heal bell support. Its main weakness is heal bell support however, so Chansey can easily switch in and just heal bell it away, so if stall is on the rise, salazzle with be utterly useless. Of course we still have to wait for everything to play out, and I probably missed a few things, but these are just my projection for the mon.
Salazzle gets Taunt, some kind of anti Stall Salazzle could work.
 
In all of this, I'd like to highlight salazzle quite possibly being on the rise as an adaption to the metagame. Rillaboom seeing more play is a good thing for salazzle, as grassy terrain plus boots gives it actually decent longevity even with its piss poor defenses, while being able to easily revenge kill opposing Rillaboom given its 4x resist to grass. I see it as sort of a replacement for cinderace, sharing a close speed tier and coverage. In the place of zen headbutt, a Salazzle can just run toxic, dealing a fatal blow to things like Toxapex without any heal bell support. Its main weakness is heal bell support however, so Chansey can easily switch in and just heal bell it away, so if stall is on the rise, salazzle with be utterly useless. Of course we still have to wait for everything to play out, and I probably missed a few things, but these are just my projection for the mon.
Even if you successfully use Toxic on Toxapex, and they have no heal bell support, Pex can still stall out Salazzle with Regenerator spam. But it does help a little. And a Salazzle on a stall team with 5 big stall mons like Toxapex/Chansey etc. is even more effective/scary/cancerous than using a Salazzle on an offensive team to counter the stall. I think the Pex really needs to go before we all get sick.
 
This belongs in the SQSA thread, but it was explained in TDK’s post here. Basically, we wanted more time to evaluate Cinderace and we knew we could act more justifiably on it with the time the suspect took whereas Magearna was a very clear cut suspect given how much we saw. It also makes sense given the timeline of both rising to prominence.

The above post neglects to consider that Magearna was broken from the second people started using Specs — about a week in — whereas it took a while for people to begin using Uturn 4A Cind, which was clearly what broke it. That timeline is really important here.
One thing to point out is by quickbanning cinderace and later enacting a suspect test to unban it, you are decreasing the threshold for banning him from 60% of qualified voters to 50%. Since for the unban suspect test, 50% must vote to unban it for it to be unbanned, meaning only 50% would need to prefer to ban it for it to remain banned. I don't think this will make much of a difference considering the survey results and the 80%+ in favor of banning mag, but it's worth recognizing that quickbans followed by unbanning suspect tests do make it easier to keep pokemon banned.
 
I think banning cinder was a mistake, and I wouldnt be surprised if it gets unbanned at a later time.

Cinder kept a lot of common, splashable mons in check. Its also one of the few good fire types we have. What exactly are we supposed to run in its place? Are we just all going to run volc and rotom-H and nothing else?

I feel that players are too attached to their corv-clef style cores and just arent willing to adjust for cinder. In my personal experience, I have yet to run into a cinderace set that my team couldnt handle. I honestly cannot recall a single game where I went "oh wow, i just lose to cinderace" at team preview, or a single time I allowed it to run a train on my team.
 

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One thing to point out is by quickbanning cinderace and later enacting a suspect test to unban it, you are decreasing the threshold for banning him from 60% of qualified voters to 50%. Since for the unban suspect test, 50% must vote to unban it for it to be unbanned, meaning only 50% would need to prefer to ban it for it to remain banned. I don't think this will make much of a difference considering the survey results and the 80%+ in favor of banning mag, but it's worth recognizing that quickbans followed by unbanning suspect tests do make it easier to keep pokemon banned.
That’s not really true also because people are naturally bias against the status quo (Look at recent ban margins) when voting and now the status quo is Cinderace being banned. We also recently changed the margin for retest votes to make this more fair and avoid manipulation of ban thresholds via temporarily banning -> retesting things.

I think banning cinder was a mistake, and I wouldnt be surprised if it gets unbanned at a later time.

Cinder kept a lot of common, splashable mons in check. Its also one of the few good fire types we have. What exactly are we supposed to run in its place? Are we just all going to run volc and rotom-H and nothing else?
Keeping something broken in the tier to keep other things in check is NEVER the solution. Broken checks broken can be corrected by simply banning both broken elements. And it’s not like this is even that as Cinderace was not needed to check much in particular honestly.

There also is no quota for amount of goof fire types a tier should have so I do not know why you are bringing this up, but you listed 2 strong and valid Fire type options and that’s more than a lot of prior metagames had, so this is a nonissue.

I feel that players are too attached to their corv-clef style cores and just arent willing to adjust for cinder. In my personal experience, I have yet to run into a cinderace set that my team couldnt handle. I honestly cannot recall a single game where I went "oh wow, i just lose to cinderace" at team preview, or a single time I allowed it to run a train on my team.
Nothing but Hippowdon was reliable long-term against the 4A variants, so if you used Hippowdon or suffocating HO every game, then sure. But asking that if everyone and accepting that restriction is obviously not ok. The ban was more than justified and got ample support + a unanimous council vote.

When are the defensive annoyances like Toxapex or Clefable going to be considered ban material?
They are already being considered and once the Cinderace retest happens, I imagine more discussion will happen in public and hopefully in private. I personally posted about it here and I think that we should see how the metagame settles before making further judgements, but it is absolutely something to monitor closely.
 
In all of this, I'd like to highlight salazzle quite possibly being on the rise as an adaption to the metagame. Rillaboom seeing more play is a good thing for salazzle, as grassy terrain plus boots gives it actually decent longevity even with its piss poor defenses, while being able to easily revenge kill opposing Rillaboom given its 4x resist to grass. I see it as sort of a replacement for cinderace, sharing a close speed tier and coverage. In the place of zen headbutt, a Salazzle can just run toxic, dealing a fatal blow to things like Toxapex without any heal bell support. Its main weakness is heal bell support however, so Chansey can easily switch in and just heal bell it away, so if stall is on the rise, salazzle with be utterly useless. Of course we still have to wait for everything to play out, and I probably missed a few things, but these are just my projection for the mon.
I actually think Toxtricity could become a decent niche pick. Mixed or LO/Specs/Silk Scarf sets love the absence of Magearna/Cinderace. Also, the potential increase in usage of defensive mons like Mandibuzz, Slowbro, Clefable, Weezing-G, and Tangrowth bodes well since Toxtricity blows all of those away, while on the offensive side, any decrease in Excadrill usage also benefits Toxtricity.

Oh, also, Toxicroak. If Slowbro's not packing Psychic or Thunder Wave, Toxicroak can come in kinda free. Toxapex is also basically set up fodder as well, even though Croak can't really do THAT much back.
 
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