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Honestly a lot of ban arguments are starting to just sound like youre mad you can't OHKO it, and don't want to put in the work required to earn the KO.
Adamant Life Orb Golurk's Earthquake doesn't even OHKO Toxapex from full.
I know Golurk is an extremely niche pick in OU and that it usually only has a tiny niche on specific kinds of HO, but Golurk has access to one of the absolute strongest unboosted Earthquakes in the game currently, slightly weaker than unboosted Adamant LO Excadrill's EQ, and it cannot OHKO Toxapex with a super-effective STAB Earthquake boosted by a Life Orb and coming off of Golurk's ludicrous 124 Attack stat.
Not being to OHKO a physical wall isn't really too surprising, but Toxapex really, really punishes you for being unable to OHKO it because it can adopt a defensive Hit-and-Run playstyle. It can eat a hit and survive, and then proceed to use that turn to cripple something with a Toxic/Knock Off/a potential Scald burn, switch out on a now-crippled threat, and regain a chunk of its health back with that thing that dented it potentially being incapable of denting it nearly as hard going forward.
The only way to beat a well-played Toxapex is to prepare for a very long game and whittle it down into 2HKO or occasionally OHKO range over the course of potentially-dozens of turns; but Toxapex almost seems to be meticulously designed to do its dirtiest work over the course of dozens of turns. Most of the time you have to whittle down something that is designed to whittle a whole team down far better over the course of an entire game.
Adamant Life Orb Golurk's Earthquake doesn't even OHKO Toxapex from full.
I know Golurk is an extremely niche pick in OU and that it usually only has a tiny niche on specific kinds of HO, but Golurk has access to one of the absolute strongest unboosted Earthquakes in the game currently, slightly weaker than unboosted Adamant LO Excadrill's EQ, and it cannot OHKO Toxapex with a super-effective STAB Earthquake boosted by a Life Orb and coming off of Golurk's ludicrous 124 Attack stat.
Not being to OHKO a physical wall isn't really too surprising, but Toxapex really, really punishes you for being unable to OHKO it because it can adopt a defensive Hit-and-Run playstyle. It can eat a hit and survive, and then proceed to use that turn to cripple something with a Toxic/Knock Off/a potential Scald burn, switch out on a now-crippled threat, and regain a chunk of its health back with that thing that dented it potentially being incapable of denting it nearly as hard going forward.
The only way to beat a well-played Toxapex is to prepare for a very long game and whittle it down into 2HKO or occasionally OHKO range over the course of potentially-dozens of turns; but Toxapex almost seems to be meticulously designed to do its dirtiest work over the course of dozens of turns. Most of the time you have to whittle down something that is designed to whittle a whole team down far better over the course of an entire game.
Well if you neglect hazards then yh it's gonna survive some pretty brutal attacks. And it's not that hard to chip Pex. As an example:
252+ Atk Life Orb Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 242-289 (79.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
I know that the hazards seems slightly excessive but you can chip down Pex into a range where Pex can't take a hit as it is tasked with handling so much. Regen is annoying but unless you let it switch in and out freely, Pex really shouldn't be at full health all the time.
Anyway, I'm bored of this back and forth Pex discussion. We have more interesting things to discuss such as the fact that the usage stats have been released! For those that don't know, here is a quick summary of mons that have risen/fallen from ou:
Rises:
Aegislash moved from UUBL to OU
Gengar moved from UUBL to OU
Primarina moved from UUBL to OU
Hatterene moved from UU to OU
Kyurem moved from UU to OU
Necrozma moved from UU to OU
Skarmory moved from UU to OU
Toxtricity moved from UU to OU
Tyranitar moved from UU to OU
Ditto moved from NU to OU
Drops:
Chansey moved from OU to UUBL
Venusaur moved from OU to UUBL
Kingdra moved from OU to UU
Marowak-Alola moved from OU to UU
Slowbro moved from OU to UU
Zarude moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to RU
A few thoughts on some of the shifts:
- im fairly surprised that this has risen. Not that it isn't good, but I haven't really seen it being used or talked about that much. I'm don't know if it has had some use in olt so please let me now.
- this mon is an great breaker and sweeper and does amazingly on HO. It is really hard to wall between boomburst, overdrive and drain punch and threatens the daylights out of Pex which is always good.
- the King is back! And this time with a new role as specially defensive rocker. Honestly I don't have much to say about it so let's move on.
- for the first time since gen 5, it is outclassed by its evolution, who can fulfill its role as a specially defensive pivot while being harder to wear down with boots. Its only really used on stall teams so I don't see it rising anytime soon.
- this really surprised me as sun has been really solid this past month. I guess the rise in tyranitar gave it actually "good" weather to compete with so this might not have been too surprising but I definitely wasn't expecting it.
- yh this thing just disappeared of the face of the earth and I can understand why. It doesn't really handle anything well, atleast not better than the other defensive mons. It's pretty bad right now so that's that.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on these shifts so please comment down below on what you think about them.
Toxapex is a (usually) physical wall. Surviving a 100 base power attack isn't all that surprising. Chansey, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Amoongus, and Hippowdon have similar feats shrugging off super effective hits. If Toxapex is or is not broken is a great question, but taking 95% from Earthquake is not going to be the evidence that determines this. Anything can be bulky if you EV it hard enough.
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Kakuna: 236-278 (80.2 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Anyway congratulations to Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Gengar for once again refusing to die in UU. All hail the eternal trio.
'Purely'? Pex didn't just make Keldeo drop. I have made a post about this already.
Rain is worse due to Mega Swampert being cut
Power creep, such as new Pokemon like Dragapult, and Zeraora which was UU last gen
Amoonguss rising in usage as well as Slowbro which are both OU this gen
It was falling towards the end of last gen anyway
Sure, Tapu Fini and Bulu aren't around, but so aren't many pokemon which Keldeo was great against and partnered with, like Blacephalon, Mega Zard X, Ash Greninja, Lando T, Heatran and Gliscor. And anyway, how is power creep disregarded because of Pex? Power creep had nothing to do with it. There are always going to be newer, better, stronger Pokemon.
FFS This is the second time you've misunderstood what people meant by "Keldo fell off a cliff". They're not talking about this gen. They're talking about last gen. You know, when Toxapex was added. The generation where Keldeo went from top of the pack to pure rubbish, even though Slowbro and Amoongus both got slightly worse.
Community discussion, which supposedly shows its "uselessness [of community discussing] regarding suspecting" according to you, is what led to so many different pieces of tiering action previously. Let's go over the times this generation alone that disprove your claim.
I think the overwhelming abundance of evidence actually undercuts your point somewhat. When people say that the community gets ignored, they don't mean they never get heard. They mean discussion goes on for 50 pages before the council finally decides to act on something. While the possibility for community input is certainly appreciated, I won't deny that without seeing any of the deliberating behind closed doors, it appears as if the council has incredibly delayed reactions.
Could you please elaborate on team building "loosening up"? What exactly is un-viable because of Toxapex, apart from maybe other bulky waters? Bulky water types have been a stable for every generation for as long as I've been playing (in and out since gen4). How exactly does it restrict team building? Running teammates or coverage for one of the premier walls in the game isn't what I'd classify as restricting. Certain things such as Alakazam might fall in usage if Pex is banned, but I think you're imagining a completely different meta to what I'm seeing, so I'd love to see how you feel the meta would look without Pex.
It has been explained ad nauseum, but this wasn't the point of my post. My point was that a QB followed by a retest would allow people to see what the tier gains from having Toxapex removed while providing an easy in if it's considered manageable. You are also conflating "running coverage for a premier wall" with forcing suboptimal decisions upon an opponent solely for a single threat. The greatest example of this previously was ZHB on Cinderace, which would otherwise gain nothing from running the move. Nowadays the "coverage" item is kinda moot, since NON-STAB, unboosted hits are pretty much gonna bounce off of it even if super effective. But again this is something that would be more useful to discuss during a suspect or retest
Posting some of my thoughts on the meta shifts and trends so I can stop malding about Pex:
I'm extremely surprised that these guys dropped from OU. Sun has been on an absolute roll even after the Cinderace ban and the only thing that really suggested that it would drop was the fact that the OLT meta was favoring more traditional Rillaboom+Hawlucha squads and nasty-ass Ditto and/or Kyurem Stalls. Sun hasn't really gotten worse though; it's not like these squads are having a hard time putting in a tremendous amount of work against any of these trending sets, either.
Our prophet, Omari P, had plenty of good things to say about this thing long before everybody else realized it was actually a beast. I'm glad Toxtricity is finally getting the recognition it deserves the most; it really is a monstrosity.
Yay, we saved it! This feels almost like a case of Gen 7 Garchomp syndrome; it was living in Hippo's shadow for a long time but the best things TTar has to offer are all the things Hippo simply cannot do; it acts as a great special wall able to spread Paralysis and utterly shaft Volcarona all in one slot! I see a bright future for TTar going forward, in all honesty.
It was OU before and is OU now. It's never been truly bad in this meta and it especially isn't even remotely close to being lackluster now, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why Togekiss has top 10 usage in this metagame now. What exactly is this thing doing that suddenly warrants that much usage?
I know they're all vastly different beasts, but I feel like these things all being so widely used now is a perfect indication of how impactful the Timbs have proven to be, even on stuff that isn't Mandibuzz/Togekiss/Volcarona.
Blissey has almost entirely outclassed Chansey for once and it's quite fascinating although it's still as frustratingly hard to break past as ever.
Dragapult has a lot of sets going for it but its most recent one is a bizarre but surprisingly amazing mixed Hex set that uses the Timbs to act as an effective offensive pivot. Zeraora being so dominant manages to be a net positive for Dragapult; it wasn't gonna outpace Zeraora in the first place but it outpaces everything leading up to it by a considerable margin, so now it can afford to run Attack or Special Attack-boosting natures to showcase just how formidable of a breaker or sweeper it truly is.
I don't think a single person expected Zeraora to be truly OU-viable after the reintroduction of Tangrowth and Amoonguss. The reports of its demise were greatly exaggerated, though; it's back and it's better than it has ever been in this metagame. Toxapex, Clefable, Zeraora, and Dragapult potentially make up the four best mons in the tier right now.
I'm surprised this thing rose, but I'm not disappointed either. This thing is an offensive beast right now and is often an utter nightmare to switch into. Glad it's doing well in OU now!
lmao rip UU I guess. Skarm was singlehandedly keeping the tier from falling apart and now there's upwards of five different things that have fewer (or no) defensive answers down there now. That said, I'm very happy to see that Skarm is not, in fact, just a Walmart-brand Corviknight like some folks expected it to be up here in OU.
Posting some of my thoughts on the meta shifts and trends so I can stop malding about Pex:
I'm extremely surprised that these guys dropped from OU. Sun has been on an absolute roll even after the Cinderace ban and the only thing that really suggested that it would drop was the fact that the OLT meta was favoring more traditional Rillaboom+Hawlucha squads and nasty-ass Ditto and/or Kyurem Stalls. Sun hasn't really gotten worse though; it's not like these squads are having a hard time putting in a tremendous amount of work against any of these trending sets, either.
I have to agree and it makes me question the new tiering thresholds. We see a number of frankly massive metagame threats dropping due to the new Thresholds. Frankly if a team failed to account for Sun that's not really something that you can play around easily. It mandates specific attention in team builder in contrast to Rain which can potentially be played around.
OLT Meta and Post-Cindearce/Magearna meta has finally hit. We saw a lot of new faces rise up from UU and we also saw some former strong threats fall down. A lot of the mons that rose either benefited from the recent bans, and/or they rose in order to combat other strong threats on the OLT ladder. OLT usually brings lots of hyper offense, stall, and then new innovative sets to counter common threats, and you'll see a lot of mons like that below. If you want more information on OLT cycles, then I would recommend checking out posts by the qualifiers, as well as the posts by Jordy and Finchinator.
#8 (24.47%) > #2 (32.61%)
Rillaboom has been a great offensive staple and it actually managed to surpass Dragapult fairly quickly. Rillaboom benefited a lot from the Cinderace and Magearna bans, as it lost a strong offensive check and lost one of the few offensive mons that resisted Grass-attacks. In addition to hitting hard and providing Knock Off, Rillaboom's Grassy Glide was helpful for threatening other offensive mons such as Azumarill and Zeraora. As for how it has been affecting the metagame, we've seen mons like Corviknight and Amoonguss rise up in order to check it Rillaboom in addition to the usual roles they provide.
#20 (9.038%) > #10 (15.98%)
Corviknight is back to being the tier's premiere Defogger after Mandibuzz saw an insane spike in usage. Magaerna and Cinderace previously gave it a lot of trouble, but now Corviknight is able to provide better defensive utility, with big perks such as countering Rillaboom and beating Skarmory one on one.
#36 (4.602%) > #16 (10.667%)
After barely making the cut to stay in OU, Scizor was able to finally get some good usage in during OLT, where it was commonly seen on hyper offense teams. It also appreciates Cinderace being banned, as that used to be one of Scizor's common offensive checks. Offensively, it's able to soften checks like Corviknight and Toxapex for its offensive teammates. It also provides some defensive utility to offensive teams as well, as it is able to switch into Rillaboom and Kyurem.
New Faces/Return to OU:
#42 (3.142%) > #21 (8.365%)
Kyurem went from a hot topic pre-dlc to UU post-dlc, but it is back and with a new set. Before dlc, it commonly used a Choice Specs set, but in addition to that, it now runs a Substitute + Roost + Freeze Dry + Icicle Spear set. Surprisingly enough, Ice resists aren't terribly common outside of Toxapex, Rotom-Heat, Aegislash, and a few other offensive mons like Scizor and Magnezone. Kyurem is able to sit behind a sub fairly comfortably and then click Icicle Spear all game long to slowly but surely wear things down and PP stall opponents in the process with its Pressure ability. As for the Choice Specs set, it now runs Focus Blast in order to hit Blissey as well as Tyranitar.
#37 (3.954%) > #24 (8.024%)
Skarmory began seeing some usage towards the end of world cup, and that usage carried over to OLT as well. Skarmory at the time, was a Spike user that would threaten Mandibuzz with Toxic and Body Press and keep hazards up. Skarmory now deals with Rillaboom, provides Rocky Helmet chip against mons like Urshifu, and still tries to set up Spikes. However, we've already seen people adapting to it by using Corviknight and Hatterene, so it'll be interesting to see how it fares this month.
#53 (2.382) > #28 (6.650%)
Toxtricity has been gaining some traction over time, but the mixed set has finally peaked and it is a very massive threat. Shift Gear + Boomburst + Overdrive + Drain Punch and sometimes Throat Chop is very tough to switch into, as Drain Punch in particular is able to take care of Blissey and Excadrill. Boomburst + Overdrive has strong coverage that can threaten both offensive and defensive mons. Throat Chop is a nice option to remove immediately Dragapult, which is one of the few mons that resists Overdrive + Drain Punch + Boomburst.
#38 (3.82%) > #31 (6.199%)
The hat is back and this time it was mainly used to break stall. Magic Bounce also helped teams tremendously, as Spikes became a lot more common, especially from the newly risen Skarmory. Hatterene is able to set up and threaten Clefable and Toxapex fairly quickly while having enough physical bulk to tank a hit from mons like Zeraora and even Urshifu (you avoid the 1HKO and 1HKO back with Draining Kiss while healing a lot).
#70 (1.311%) > #32 (6.104%)
OLT season means hyper offense and stall see more usage now than they usually do, and this is usually when Ditto peaks. Ditto is back for now at least, and it's an excellent mon to help deal with offensive threats, as well as do a great job of PP stalling opposing teams. Now the big question is whether it'll continue being OU after this month, or if it'll drop down once OLT is over.
#55 (2.195%) > #33 (5.963%)
Primarina dropped when the DLC came out and usage for Magearna, Blissey and Amoonguss was high, but it slowly returned on offensive teams. Primarina can sweep unprepared teams and has recently made use of Draining Kiss to help provide longevity and deal with Blissey. Primarina can also threaten non-Giga Drain Volcarona and win the set up war against it.
#75 (1.218%) > #34 (5.785%)
Necrozma went from being nearly nonexistent to being OU over the span of a few weeks. Offensive teams utilized it as a Stealth Rock setter alongside a Meteor Beam set, which allowed to to hit decently hard after receiving the +1 SpA boost from Meteor Beam. Photon Geyser + Heat Wave provides great coverage and this allowed Necrozma to deal with common defensive mons like Toxapex, Corviknight and Clefable.
#46 (2.946%) > #35 (5.558%)
Now that Mandibuzz usage is dropping, Aegislash is back to being a fairly strong threat with its Choice Specs and mixed sets. Shadow Ball is great for being able to actively threaten the common defensive core of Clefable + Corviknight + Toxapex/Amoonguss. Mixed sets are great because Close Combat is able to take care of Blissey and Tyranitar in case they attempt to switch into Shadow Ball. Finally, Aegislash also has defensive merit, as it can potentially deal with Sub Kyurem and threaten back in general.
#63 (1.61%) > #38 (4.705%)
Tyranitar has been struggling all generation long, but it has finally found another role to play in OU. This time around, it is used to provide Stealth Rock while countering strong threats in Volcarona, Togekiss, and sometimes Kyurem as well. Sand Stream chip can also be helpful to chip offensive mons like Zeraora over time, as well as provide Excadrill with Sand for its Sand Rush ability. Rock Blast is used to threaten Volcarona, Togekiss and Sub Kyurem, and Thunder Wave is a common move to threaten a larger number of mons, such as Clefable, Toxapex and Ferrothorn.
#39 (3.643%) > #39 (4.677%)
Gengar surprisingly didn't change positions in term of usage, but it did gain the extra 1% in usage to make the cut for OU. Sub Gengar is a strong threat, especially for Stall teams. Substitute allows it to fully wall Blissey that carry Thunder Wave, and from there, it can usually set up with Nasty Plot and start 1-2HKO'ing everything in return. Sub allows it to become Ditto-proof, and it may also force the opponent to use up 2 turns to break the sub, or take a hit while breaking the sub in order to force Gengar out. The exception to this is if the opponent has Teleport Blissey with Dragapult, although a recent trend to note is that Tyranitar may give Gengar trouble now, as it is one of the few mons that resists both Ghost and Poison-type attacks.
Fall from OU:
#35 (4.64%) > #40 (4.414%)
Rain saw some usage in OLT, but unfortunately Kingdra just barely missed the cut. Kingdra is an rain-exclusive mon, which limits its usage to begin with, but unfortunately the rise in Tyranitar and threats like Rillaboom may have discouraged players from using Rain as often.
#33 (4.847%) > #41 (4.390%) |
#34 (4.65%) > #42 (4.318%)
I'm putting these two together since they're both run on Sun together, but similar to Kingdra above, I'm assuming Tyranitar's spike in usage caused others to use Sun less often enough to the point where these two were able to barely miss the usage cutoff. Ditto may have also played a part in punishing Sun, as it is a more offensive style.
#15 (10.297%) > #46 (3.670%)
Last but not least, Slowbro went from being a solid mon that could somewhat handle Cinderace, to falling to UU immediately. The reason for this is because Slowbro now struggles with most physical attackers in the tier, such as Urshifu, Rillaboom, and Zeraora. Due to those physical attackers being so common, Slowbro is usually pushed aside and replaced with mons like Toxapex or Amoonguss in order to better handle those mons.
I'll leave the usual questions below:
1. Which mons do you think benefited the most from Cinderace and Magearna being banned?
2. Which mons suffered the most from Cinderace and Magearna being banned?
3. Among the mons that rose, do you think they will stay in OU, or do you think they will fall right back down next month?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What is your favorite mon that saw increased usage this month?
10. How do you feel about the new metagame?
11. Feel free to discuss anything I didn't cover above.
I would also like to use this time to talk about the state of the thread and what I want to hopefully see from it in the future and what I would prefer to avoid. It's been a little more heated than usually, in particular to the community having a strong desire for action against Toxapex, which I think is a fair cause and something I would personally support too. However, I think we can all do a better job of discussing it than what we've seen in the last week.
This is the metagame discussion thread, not the Toxapex thread, and not the complain about the council or smogon thread. This isn't saying that you're not allowed to discuss Toxapex, but rather I think it is unfair and wrong for users to force others to talk about Toxapex and nothing else. I said this before, but anything that is relevant in OU is legal to be discussed here, and it is no one's job to say they can't do that otherwise. As for the council situation, I don't have a solution for it, but I do think that complaining here will accomplish nothing and I'm sorry to say that. That being said, I can assure you that some if not all of them look at this thread from time to time, and my advice to you all would be to come up with stronger and more in depth posts about mons you find problematic. Anyone can write a post crying about a broken mon, but not everyone will write a post that convinces the reader that the mon you discussed is truly ban/test worthy. So for that reason, I would like to challenge you all to write something far more in depth than you have before should you want to convince the council to test/ban something. Take your posts up a level and try and tackle the issue from a new angle if you can find one. If it helps, pretend you're the author that's writing the first post in a suspect thread. If you guys can do this, then I have no complaints so long as you do so respectfully and avoid forcing discussion onto certain mons and away from other mons.
It's very unlikely that this thread gets locked, and none of the moderators wish for it to be locked, but we'll be forced to do so if this thread is unable to shift gears. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or another mod. If you have something to ask the council, then you're free to PM them as well.
Have a nice day and I'm looking forward to seeing what you all have to say :)
It was OU before and is OU now. It's never been truly bad in this meta and it especially isn't even remotely close to being lackluster now, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why Togekiss has top 10 usage in this metagame now. What exactly is this thing doing that suddenly warrants that much usage?
1. Which mons do you think benefited the most from Cinderace and Magearna being banned?
2. Which mons suffered the most from Cinderace and Magearna being banned?
3. Among the mons that rose, do you think they will stay in OU, or do you think they will fall right back down next month?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What is your favorite mon that saw increased usage this month?
10. How do you feel about the new metagame?
11. Feel free to discuss anything I didn't cover above.
1) I think / , , , and benefited the most from those two being banned. Corviknight/Skarmory are now the premier defoggers in the metagame since they don't have to worry about taking pyro balls from cinderace. Aegislash, kyurem, and rillaboom have taken cinderace's and magearna's roles as the new wallbreakers.
2) and are easily the answers for me. Slowbro was mainly used as a defensive pivot to cinderace but now pretty much loses to most of the wallbreakers currently running around in the meta. Rotom-heat also took a hit as it was one of, if not the only, good checks to magearna.
3) That completely depends on the result of the cinderace retest. If it somehow gets unbanned (which I highly doubt), I expect to see most of the mons that have risen to fall. If not then they're likely to stay OU
4) for sure, it's an absolute beast with a very strong priority move under terrain
5) It was really fun to use when it first came out but it has subpar bulk, a bad speed stat and hates its thick club getting knocked off.
6) I feel like a well played hydreigon can easily get at least 1-2 kills each game. I've also seen mixed hydreigon running superpower which is able to 2HKO blissey with life orb!
7) I find it very underwhelming
8) If I'm being honest, I'm really not enjoying teambuilding. The best teams are usually very fat with atleast 1 regenerator mon and quite frankly can get boring to use at times.
9) I'm sure most people would agree with me here
10) If I had to rate it on a scale of 1-10, I'd give it maybe a 6.5/7
So for that reason, I would like to challenge you all to write something far more in depth than you have before should you want to convince the council to test/ban something. Take your posts up a level and try and tackle the issue from a new angle if you can find one. If it helps, pretend you're the author that's writing the first post in a suspect thread. If you guys can do this, then I have no complaints so long as you do so respectfully and avoid forcing discussion onto certain mons and away from other mons.
I mean, it has been discussed so ad nauseum here, with many, many, MANY in depth posts concerning Toxapex and why it should be banned. I can't even think about how much more in depth we could possibly go about it. There are some posts that are not that in depth sure, but many others clearly outline all of the issues in as much detail as one could possibly hope for. Those types of posts are loaded up in this thread, and all it takes is a glance through all 11 pages here to see 20+ in depth, well authored posts about it.
There are of course other posts that are not very well thought out, and some that are just flat out smears, but I think for the most part everyone here is doing what they can to bring attention to Toxapex, and the only reason the discussion keeps going on is because there hasn't been action on it. I would expect the discussion to keep going on as well until some action, either a suspect test or a definitive statement that it will not be tested or banned, happens.
In the meantime, the rise of Toxtricity has shown it is a very legitimate OU option in this Toxapex-infested meta. While Overdrive does not OHKO Toxapex, the consumption of Throat Spray prevents any Knock Off liability, and a mixed Shift Gear set can handle TTar and Blissey as well without worrying about any Toxic/T-Wave issues. It's also not weak to a reverse Ditto sweep as it resists its own attacks (unless you run Boomburst). Since there will likely be no suspect on the Pex (As much as I want it, I just don't see it happening before CT, and CT will neutralize it further and make it unnecessary), I expect more people to experiment with Toxtricity. Magnezone and Alakazam are decent, but Toxtricity may be the better answer right now.
I think the people in this thread have made it very clear that regardless of what happens with Toxapex, the issue is that the council and their feelings remains completely hidden from the public. I think Smogon overall makes the right decisions but would it kill some council members to copy / paste whatever they feel in this thread, or to have some kind of occasional updates from time to time? Or if there is some kind of hidden forum it would be nice to make it public.
I'm sure you know as well as everyone that Toxapex is a big issue for a lot of people and if those claims are valid or not is the question of the day. But maybe instead of threatening to lock this thread the council could just make a big nice Smogon-TM college essay wall of text post that could put the concerns of the average 1600 Showdown player to rest?
3. Among the mons that rose, do you think they will stay in OU, or do you think they will fall right back down next month?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
3. With the exception of kyurem, hat, and toxtricity, the pokemon that rose from UU to OU (TTar, necro, and skarm) were all metagame trends that developed during OLT. These pokemon are all still very viable, but with OLT ending soon, something like the necrozma HO team will be spammed a lot less, causing it to fall off. Skarm will be better prepeared for and the cinderace retest won't do it any favors, while I'm split on whether TTar can be consistent enough to stay OU. On the other hand, hatterene and toxtricty are likely to stay OU for a while as they are great pokemon to use and beat public enemy #1 toxapex. Also ditto will probably drop once OLT is finished as well, but he doesn't matter too much.
4. Pretty much the top 10 mons (clef, rilla, pult, zera, exca, pex, volc, corv, shifu, and toge) will all continue to have high usage as they are all solid pokemon to use in the metagame, Of course, if a cinderace retest were to happen, then things like rilla and corv might drop a bit, but will still see high usage.
5. The only one that comes to mind is Alakazam, as it's usage has been dropping consistently and is barely making the cutoff. If the metagame continues develops the way it does, then zam is definitely something that could drop in the future.
7. The ones that stick out to me are mandibuzz and hawlucha. lucha needs rilla, but rilla doesnt need lucha, and lucha can definitely be inconsistent if rilla dies before it can activate it's seed as well as it needs a boost to beat the tier's most prominent physical walls. Mandibuzz faces more and more competition from corv as a defogger and many of the stuff that has risen in OU specifically to kill pex also kill it too (prim, tox, hat). It's something that will become less and less common until DLC drops, in my opinion, but if ace is retested it's usage is likely to surge.
It was OU before and is OU now. It's never been truly bad in this meta and it especially isn't even remotely close to being lackluster now, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why Togekiss has top 10 usage in this metagame now. What exactly is this thing doing that suddenly warrants that much usage?
Having one mon that can check Urshifu and Rillaboom is really nice in the teambuilder. Additional utility in Trick & Heal Bell is also really nice with defensive mons and status moves being pretty common.
With the rise of Tyranitar + Excadrill teams, and Rillaboom seeing a surge in usage, I have no doubt Hawlucha will be a dark horse in this meta. Not only is it a great Rillaboom teammate, it also is one of the few Pokemon to outspeed Excadrill in sand (once Unburden is activated). Hawlucha also happens to have a great match up against opposing Rillaboom and Tyranitar and can prey on top tier threats such as Volcarona and Urshifu, both of which are on the rise and top meta picks.
Keep your eyes peeled, and maybe try to use Hawlucha, you might just find some success with it
1. Which mons do you think benefited the most from Cinderace and Magearna being banned?
Offensively speaking a handful of mons have felt much more spammable due to these two being gone, stuff like , , , and of course, . All mons prone to being revenged or 1v1'd by Mage or Ace and just making these guys a wasted slot on most teams.
Defensively it freed up a lot, no more specs trick and being forced to use bunker again due to Zen Headbutt 2hko's frees Pex a lot. also got freed thanks to the above points, and with Cinderace gone is now a safe pick over pex as your regenerator poison. Steels like and and are also easier to fit on teams now.
2. Which mons suffered the most from Cinderace and Magearna being banned?
Not so sure about this one, but I've noticed a dive in those volt-turn balances without Ace and specs Mage there to infinitely switch around. Those builds helped banded Urshifu a lot. Rotom-Heat is still good but lost that importance it had by checking both of these guys.
3. Among the mons that rose, do you think they will stay in OU, or do you think they will fall right back down next month?
I definitely see , , , , , and staying. Those mons can always have a roll on certain team styles. seems a bit fishy, could drop to UUBL again. and took ladder by surprise with their sets, but I doubt that will stay.
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage? , , , . These 4 seem to never let you down, and they can run so many sets (although pex mostly sticks to one nowadays). I don't see these things dropping anytime soon.
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage? I still see people using this thing overtime, but it's usage has and will continue to dwindle.
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future? I know its usage has shot up lately, but I have always considered Hat a solid mon and I feel like it will keep seeing usage or at the very least start having a real impact on people during the teambuilding process.
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future? This thing. I just feel like does the whole defogging and uturning business much better, among other things, but they check some different mons, so its not a complete comparison.
8 and 10. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building? How do you feel about the new metagame?
Haven't struggled in the teambuilder much, but actually playing has been a struggle. Certain matchups just get very rough, like HO's vs Toxapex fat, or stall vs CM Hatterene. Playing into stuff like Rillaboom + other pro spammers isnt very cool. It doesn't feel like a broken metagame, but it is an annoying one.
9. What is your favorite mon that saw increased usage this month? , love this thing, fun to use, glad its being seen as a real threat now.
I think the overwhelming abundance of evidence actually undercuts your point somewhat. When people say that the community gets ignored, they don't mean they never get heard. They mean discussion goes on for 50 pages before the council finally decides to act on something. While the possibility for community input is certainly appreciated, I won't deny that without seeing any of the deliberating behind closed doors, it appears as if the council has incredibly delayed reactions.
Read the post I was responding to. That simply is not what he was saying at all; I am not saying your point is invalid, but it’s not what the conversation was about and not what I was responding to. The prior poster, who I was responding to, was saying there was no point in posting because the council didn’t listen or factor community input. I was disproving that sentiment.
If you have an issue with the pace of suspects and tiering action, that’s a whole separate issue, but it is a valid opinion to have. Personally, I think that anyone who wanted things done faster this generation in particular is being unrealistic or wanting to jump the gun, but my opinion isn’t the only one out there. I agree that last generation could’ve been handled differently. With that said, I really don’t want this thread to derail beyond pokemon discussion, so if you want to have a dialogue on timing and expectations of the process, shoot me a message and I can relay it to the council or even PM the whole council if you wish.
I want to talk a bit about a Pokémon that I think has the potential to really be a star in this meta.
We all know how good Toxtricity can be. Its combination of potent offensive stats, stellar offensive typing, incredible ability that bolsters its damage output, and versatility in LO sets, Throat Spray + SG, and the rare Specs, all contribute to its huge offensive prowess. It directly threatens a large swath of the metagame at this point in time, and this presence becomes even stronger with a SG boost, letting it outspeed a large amount of common threats.
Below are some calcs on its damage output vs various tier staples.
Life Orb: 148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 223-264 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 259-306 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 144 Atk Life Orb Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 432-510 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 144 Atk Life Orb Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 143-169 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 335-395 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 144 Atk Life Orb Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 361-426 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 313-368 (74.5 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 172-203 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 541-642 (161.9 - 192.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 411-483 (101.7 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
148+ SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 144 Atk Life Orb Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 442-520 (109.4 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Throat Spray:
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 298-351 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 144 Atk Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 385-455 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 144 Atk Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 278-328 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 120-142 (34 - 40.3%) -- 36.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 360-424 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 468-554 (110.6 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 196-231 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 627-741 (187.7 - 221.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 471-555 (116.5 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 148+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 346-408 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 144 Atk Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, Tox directly threatens a huge portion of the metagame, outright 2HKOing or OHKOing staple fat mons and forcing switches. With a SG up, it’s able to outpace much of the meta, especially the fat mons that are ubiquitous throughout the tier. At +1 Attack, it’s also able to directly threaten would-be checks such as Excadrill, Tyranitar, or Blissey. Although, it should be noted that Tox does miss out on directly OHKOing both Drill and TTar if it is running Throat Spray over LO, and it’s damage output against Bliss is much lower. However, this brings me to the benefits of running TS.
With the ubiquity of Pex, having a mon that can directly threaten it, much less outright OHKO it is huge. Tox naturally outspeeds Pex even without a SG boost, so it’s free to Overdrive and then get the TS boost BEFORE a knock off from Pex (which will do next to nothing without an item). The unboosted Overdrive 2HKO’s Pex, but then the opponent is forced to choose between letting the Pex die or switching out and likely letting another mon die to a +1 attack, or even letting the Tox get a free SG off on the switch. I must reiterate that this ability to directly threaten Pex and force a switch/sack is huge.
If you choose to go LO over TS, the Pex gets OHKOd instead, and you also get the extra damage boost to directly threaten TTar, Drill, and Bliss with a drain punch. Drain punch also adds to its longevity, allowing it to circumvent being worn down by the LO damage.
All of this is to say that with Tox, you get a SG off and/or a TS boost, and you’re immediately in a position where you start forcing switches and are nearly always making some form of progress every turn. In the coming weeks, I expect to see Tox see an even larger surge in usage, and could honestly see it becoming a top-tier threat.
However, Tox is not without its flaws. It has pretty piss-poor bulk, so it’s not going to take many hits during its time on the field, especially in conjunction with LO damage (though Drain Punch certainly prolongs its longevity). It also has to choose between a LO set or TS set. With TS, you lose out on some crucial damage against mons like TTar, Drill, and Bliss, though special damage output is increased by a large margin. With LO, you lose out on a little bit of damage on the special side against certain mons like Corviknight, Hippo, and Scizor, though the general damage output is a bit higher. I personally think that the LO set is generally better in this meta, but the TS set’s ability to sponge knock off and remove threats is incredibly useful.
Also of note is the fact that Tox is hopelessly walled by Soundproof Kommo-o unless it runs Sludge Wave.
+1 144 Atk Life Orb Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 81-95 (22.8 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 144 Atk Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 62-73 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kommo-o aside, I definitely think Tox has the potential to become a top-tier threat, and I think it’s usage will only increase from here. It’s wallbreaking capabilities are insane, and its ability to directly threaten the majority of fat mons in the tier, much less offensive mons, is so incredibly important.
Also of note is the fact that Tox is hopelessly walled by Soundproof Kommo-o unless it runs Sludge Wave.
+1 144 Atk Life Orb Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 81-95 (22.8 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 144 Atk Toxtricity Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 62-73 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kommo-o aside, I definitely think Tox has the potential to become a top-tier threat, and I think it’s usage will only increase from here. It’s wallbreaking capabilities are insane, and its ability to directly threaten the majority of fat mons in the tier, much less offensive mons, is so incredibly important.
Amped has Plus and learns Venoshock and Shift Gear. Low Key has Minus and learns Venom Drench and Magnetic Flux. As Shift Gear is the only relevant move here you should always use Amped, even if for whatever reason you don't plan to use Shift Gear, as using Low Key will immediately give away that you are not running it (a similar effect to running Shiny or female Greninja).
So has anyone playing HO found themselves clicking Spikes with Mew first before SR? I have found that the sheer prevalence of boots means that I essentially ignore rocks weaknesses now when leading and instead would rather get the extra damage on ground/steel/fighting mons with spikes, most (all?) of whom don't run boots. I find that if I can only click one, spikes are getting me more mileage...
So has anyone playing HO found themselves clicking Spikes with Mew first before SR? I have found that the sheer prevalence of boots means that I essentially ignore rocks weaknesses now when leading and instead would rather get the extra damage on ground/steel/fighting mons with spikes, most (all?) of whom don't run boots. I find that if I can only click one, spikes are getting me more mileage...
This is a very interesting thought, and something I've thought about myself also. Unless the Pokemon is immune to Ground-type attacks or has the item Air Balloon (not including HDB), Spikes deals the same amount of damage (12%) and doesn't take the type chart into account. On the contrary, Stealth Rocks could potentially only do 6% damage upon switch in, and the majority of Pokemon that are "weak" to SR often run HDB. Spikes of course also has the added benefit of being able to stack, so I certainly think Spikes now take priority when getting up hazards for offensive teams
- im fairly surprised that this has risen. Not that it isn't good, but I haven't really seen it being used or talked about that much. I'm don't know if it has had some use in olt so please let me now.
TPP already covered this, but sub Gengar destroys certain stall teams that rely on Blissey as their special wall and Ditto to revenge kill. John W used it as part of his OLT run, and his video here is a great example of it dismantling ABR's stall team.
Also as a side note, people like John and Luthier (among others) have uploaded some excellent videos about their experiences laddering, and I highly recommend them to anyone interested in the meta. I wanted to shout-out them in particular because I like their videos a lot and their channels aren't as popular as some other players', but obviously a lot of talented people from smogon make great videos.
I will say that one mon I've been liking in particular in this metagame has been Primarina.
Water and Fairy as always been a good defensive typing, particularly in this metagame where mons such as Volcarona and Urshifu exist. You can tweaks its defensive spread based on team needs, though I prefer Def more due to its potential synergy with Scald burns. Draining Kiss was a godsend for it, and in tandem with Leftovers, it has so much reliable recovery and can be a force in the late game. This is especially effective when it wants to get behind a sub, and once you get a few calm minds in, you can forget about it. I also love using Primarina vs the rain matchup, as it is a nuisance against the common Swift Swimmers on those teams. Overall, this mon needs more respect on its name.
- im fairly surprised that this has risen. Not that it isn't good, but I haven't really seen it being used or talked about that much. I'm don't know if it has had some use in olt so please let me now.
- this mon is an great breaker and sweeper and does amazingly on HO. It is really hard to wall between boomburst, overdrive and drain punch and threatens the daylights out of Pex which is always good.
- the King is back! And this time with a new role as specially defensive rocker. Honestly I don't have much to say about it so let's move on.
- for the first time since gen 5, it is outclassed by its evolution, who can fulfill its role as a specially defensive pivot while being harder to wear down with boots. Its only really used on stall teams so I don't see it rising anytime soon.
- this really surprised me as sun has been really solid this past month. I guess the rise in tyranitar gave it actually "good" weather to compete with so this might not have been too surprising but I definitely wasn't expecting it.
- yh this thing just disappeared of the face of the earth and I can understand why. It doesn't really handle anything well, atleast not better than the other defensive mons. It's pretty bad right now so that's that.
It was OU before and is OU now. It's never been truly bad in this meta and it especially isn't even remotely close to being lackluster now, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why Togekiss has top 10 usage in this metagame now. What exactly is this thing doing that suddenly warrants that much usage?
I know they're all vastly different beasts, but I feel like these things all being so widely used now is a perfect indication of how impactful the Timbs have proven to be, even on stuff that isn't Mandibuzz/Togekiss/Volcarona. 
I'm surprised this thing rose, but I'm not disappointed either. This thing is an offensive beast right now and is often an utter nightmare to switch into. Glad it's doing well in OU now!
lmao rip UU I guess. Skarm was singlehandedly keeping the tier from falling apart and now there's upwards of five different things that have fewer (or no) defensive answers down there now. That said, I'm very happy to see that Skarm is not, in fact, just a Walmart-brand Corviknight like some folks expected it to be up here in OU.
/ 
, 
, and 
benefited the most from those two being banned. Corviknight/Skarmory are now the premier defoggers in the metagame since they don't have to worry about taking pyro balls from cinderace. Aegislash, kyurem, and rillaboom have taken cinderace's and magearna's roles as the new wallbreakers.
are easily the answers for me. Slowbro was mainly used as a defensive pivot to cinderace but now pretty much loses to most of the wallbreakers currently running around in the meta. Rotom-heat also took a hit as it was one of, if not the only, good checks to magearna.
It was really fun to use when it first came out but it has subpar bulk, a bad speed stat and hates its thick club getting knocked off.
I feel like a well played hydreigon can easily get at least 1-2 kills each game. I've also seen mixed hydreigon running superpower which is able to 2HKO blissey with life orb!
I find it very underwhelming 
, and of course, 
a lot, no more specs trick and being forced to use bunker again due to Zen Headbutt 2hko's frees Pex a lot. 
is now a safe pick over pex as your regenerator poison. Steels like 
are also easier to fit on teams now.
and 
seems a bit fishy, could drop to UUBL again. 
, 
I still see people using this thing overtime, but it's usage has and will continue to dwindle.
This thing. I just feel like 
