Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[OvertoneSeries]

I've been having a lot of fun using this set-up Special Kommo-o set, especially after Magearna's recent ban.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Aura Sphere
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It's typically my lead, mostly as a fake Stealth Rock setter. Sub 1st turn, then immediately Clangorous Soulblaze to boost all of its stats while Throat Spray would activate and give it +1 more SpA.
It has problems with Fini tho, but I've been seeing less of it lately.
204 Speed investment + Timid makes it able to outspeed Timid Dragapult after a Clangorous Soulblaze.

This is a cool set, but I think your strategy is flawed. Very few teams overall won't be running some type of fairy, and immediately subbing is basically signalling that you're a setup set before you actually do anything; the only thing you're actually bluffing is Belly Drum. Special over Physical may catch your opponent off-guard enough to deal with something like a Corviknight, but if a team has a Fini, a Clef, or even a Lele or a Synthesis Bulu, you've just put your Kommo-O at 40% and wasted your one-time setup for very little gain, because with Dragon/Fighting coverage you can't touch them. Even outside of fairies, there's still strong checks. Toxapex can come in on predicted Aura Spheres and press Haze, Blissey and SpDef Corviknight can come in on predicting Clanging Scales and break the sub, and G-Slowking will eat anything you throw at it and press Future Sight.

Also, I'm somewhat confused about the EV spread - when neglecting SpA this much, you miss out on certain 2HKOs that end up pretty important (Tapu Koko, Corviknight, Blissey), and the bulk you get from HP is really not that important considering you're essentially starting the battle at 42% in a best case scenario. You only need 88 HP evs to stop Grassy Glide from breaking the sub, and I'm struggling to think of much else that might be an issue there.

The optimal way to use a one-time sweeping set like this is to gradually chip away at opponent's checks using strong breakers and hazard support, pressure them out of healing, and generally find ways to turn its 3hkos into 2hkos, and 2hkos into Ohkos. Leading with it robs you of this opportunity; if you try to turn 1 sweep before doing anything, you'll find it hard to break past anything aside from lucky crits; even at a basic level, all you need is one bit of stealth rock chip to turn Corviknight from a roll into a clean 2hko. The benefit of something like Kommo-o over a stronger sweeper like Hawlucha is that people don't always expect it to be setup; and this can often lead to people letting checks get damaged thinking that it's defensive. Leading with this gives your opponent just a single turn of thinking that; saving it for the end can give you the whole game to take advantage of that.

tl;dr stop trying to turn 1 sweep

 

[vNatFly]

Oh and btw, I was hearing shit abt Lele and Kyurem might get Suspect Tested or some shit..? Is this true or is this like some suggestion from someone?

dont ban lele :(

 

[Red Raven]

The thing is the only Pokémon I recall this generation being banned that abused boots really well is cinderace. That’s 1 Pokémon, sure all the stuff you mentioned gets better but they aren’t banworthy at all. You ban something if it legitimately breaks multiple mons, the only Pokémon that has been banned that would be fine if boots doesn’t exist is cinderace, we only preserve 1 Pokémon in exchange for invalidating the viability of so many by banning boots which is not optimal. People kept complaining how hazards are so restrictive and now that we have an item that stops them you want to ban it? Instead of relying on chip damage to whittle other Pokémon down maybe directly attack them instead (I am not targeting you specifically I am saying this in a broad sense). I hope the OU council can do something like firmly establish whether boots will be eligible to be banned or not just to bury this discussion once and for all and move on.

Have I said anything about banworthy? In case you misread, all I said was it made mons more difficult to deal with

Do you think that Cinderace would get that many opportunities to be as annoying as it was if didn't get omni-Stab on every move, meaning that all of a sudden it can't break Moltres, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Swampert, Zapdos, Slowking, and suddenly becomes incapable of even touching Slowbro? You and I already know the answer. Say it with me: Every broken Pokemon is a combination of powerful traits, not just one trait (yes, even Dracovish). You can't possibly say that Cinderace is only broken due to Boots when in reality it is a combination of all of its good traits, being Strong Stab, great attack, great speed, omni-stab, great movepool, and finally Boots. To take away any of these means that Cinderace all of a sudden isn't as much of a problem as before.

Also, high-risk high reward is not a package deal. Example: Lucario. Lucario is incredibly frail and usually needs multiple turns to set up, which means there is a lot of risk in using it. However, as many people know, Lucario doesnt' function well in OU because it's walled by so many different pokemon and is super slow, thus meaning it is low reward. Lucario is high-risk, low-reward. Of course, no OU pokemon are high-risk, low reward but of course that means that boots isn't the problem, it's the pokemon's combination of traits, including boots.

Again, you're not considering the fact that stealth rocks would be digging in to Cinderace if it doesn't have its boots and you missed the point about how hazards kept dangerous mons in check. And yes I can say that Cinderace is would not be broken if it was losing much of its life every time it comes in but since Cinderace is never gonna get tested in an ou without boots, then there would be no definite answer to this. Even with Cinderace's omni stab, it is still a base fire type mon and it loses a quarter of its life to stealth rock, which I've mentioned like three times in the past hour already. It's still gonna be a threat with its high speed but it can also easily derail because of the fire type curse

Oh that. You could've made that more clear the first time you said it

When you use boots you sacrifice your item slot. If boots existed in gen 6, they wouldn't make charizard broken because they would take up an item slot that charizard needs to mega evolve. It's the same in this gen. By running boots, you forgo a boost in breaking power, or passive recovery, etc. in exchange for immunity to hazards. Look at kyurem. Although it is weak to rocks, the boots set lacks the breaking power that the specs set has. It lowers the risk and the reward. Cinderace is a unique case because it has the combination of high attack, speed, libero, coverage and U-turn, which means it doesn't need another item to boost its power, and boots only lower the risk, but the reward stays high. In addition, because they are an item, boots can be knocked off. Pokemon that are reliant on boots, like moltres, are incredibly vulnerable to knock off and once boots are knocked off, they become useless for the rest of the battle.

Well, for one thing, if you're gonna use Charizard, you're only ever gonna use its mega. Because that's the thing that I've been saying and people kept missing, giving up an item slot is well worth it for some mons in exchange for not getting chipped. Yes, it is weak to rocks, that is why stealth rock is one of the methods that can keep specs Kyurem from getting too far, because it can only switch in four or five times before dying even if it didn't eat any attack. And no Cinderace is not that unique because it's still a fire type and it loses a quarter of its life to stealth rock and that's what I've been saying, Cinderace should be a high risk high reward mon but the boots literally made it no risk high reward

Do you really think people are gonna let you knock off their boots that easily? Kartana or Rillaboom are probably the only ones that can forcibly remove one's boots since their counters are weak to it

Oh and btw, I was hearing shit abt Lele and Kyurem might get Suspect Tested or some shit..? Is this true or is this like some suggestion from someone?

dont ban lele :(

Nah. It was just some guy whining about how difficult they are to switch into and I believe nobody actually supported

 

[musiquepkmn]

Again, you're not considering the fact that stealth rocks would be digging in to Cinderace if it doesn't have its boots and you missed the point about how hazards kept dangerous mons in check. And yes I can say that Cinderace is would not be broken if it was losing much of its life every time it comes in but since Cinderace is never gonna get tested in an ou without boots, then there would be no definite answer to this. Even with Cinderace's omni stab, it is still a base fire type mon and it loses a quarter of its life to stealth rock, which I've mentioned like three times in the past hour already. It's still gonna be a threat with its high speed but it can also easily derail because of the fire type curse

Oh that. You could've made that more clear the first time you said it

I noticed you actually finished reading my post, but you seem to really be focusing on how Cinderace would be bad without boots, without even considering how it would be bad without literally any of the other positive traits it has, and that boots aren't anything special.

 

[SwaggySammy44]

Boots make some pokemon viable, (moltres would be unusable if it weren't for boots) some pokemon better (the slowtwins, blissey, any of the birds) and made 1-2 pokemon broken (kyub, cinderace, although kyub could also run something like life orb for more power.) The two pokemon that got banned also had other factors that made them broken outside of boots.

 

[shadowpea]

At this rate a moderator is going to come to tell us to shut up about boots and rocks.

 

[Red Raven]

I noticed you actually finished reading my post, but you seem to really be focusing on how Cinderace would be bad without boots, without even considering how it would be bad without literally any of the other positive traits it has, and that boots aren't anything special.

Have you misread? I literally just said Cinderace would still be a threat in my last post although it was not necessarily a reply to yours. And have I ever said Cinderace would be bad without boots? You seem to misunderstand my point so I guess I'll have to spell it out

Cinderace would not be bad without boots but it will be a high maintenance mon. It will still be a threat with its high speed and stab on every hit but stealth rock would keep it from getting too far in the same manner that stealth rock keeps specs Kyurem from getting too far. This means that if you want to use Cinderace, you have to put in the effort to get rid of stealth rock and not just near mindlessly switch it in. It will be in the same boat as Volcarona and the Charizards in the previous gens, high risk high reward and not no risk high reward. That's why I said boots made Cinderace broken as it can and it has gotten too far due to being able to ignore all hazards. No sane Cinderace user would ever switch it in that recklessly against common knock off users like Ferrothorn even though Cinderace completely destroys it

At this rate a moderator is going to come to tell us to shut up about boots and rocks.

At this point, I'm actually curious to see if a mod is gonna step in on this topic

 

[musiquepkmn]

Have you misread? I literally just said Cinderace would still be a threat in my last post although it was not necessarily a reply to yours. And have I ever said Cinderace would be bad without boots? You seem to misunderstand my point so I guess I'll have to spell it out

Cinderace would not be bad without boots but it will be a high maintenance mon. It will still be a threat with its high speed and stab on every hit but stealth rock would keep it from getting too far in the same manner that stealth rock keeps specs Kyurem from getting too far. This means that if you want to use Cinderace, you have to put in the effort to get rid of stealth rock and not just near mindlessly switch it in. It will be in the same boat as Volcarona and the Charizards in the previous gens, high risk high reward and not no risk high reward. That's why I said boots made Cinderace broken as it can and it has gotten too far due to being able to ignore all hazards. No sane Cinderace user would ever switch it in that recklessly against common knock off users like Ferrothorn even though Cinderace completely destroys it



At this point, I'm actually curious to see if a mod is gonna step in on this topic

Again, you seem fixated on the fact that Cinderace would be bad manageable (or at least worse) without boots. Again, why does this mean that boots are broken? I keep making comparisons here to other traits of Cinderace to prove to you that although Boots do make Cinderace good, it is not boots alone that make Cinderace good and thus it is not boots that should be banned here, at least with the reasoning provided.

At this point, I'm actually curious to see if a mod is gonna step in on this topic

The more we repeat their name the more they will rise up from the depths of the earth discord and come to ruin our day by doing things like keeping forums on track and maintaining civil discussions

 

[Red Raven]

Again, you seem fixated on the fact that Cinderace would be bad manageable (or at least worse) without boots. Again, why does this mean that boots are broken? I keep making comparisons here to other traits of Cinderace to prove to you that although Boots do make Cinderace good, it is not boots alone that make Cinderace good and thus it is not boots that should be banned here, at least with the reasoning provided.

Do I have a reason not to be fixated? I thought I said the reason on why I believe boots is the real culprit on why Cinderace is broken

And as I already mentioned, boots make pokemon that were difficult to deal with even more difficult. Why do you think I keep comparing Cinderace to the mega Charizards? Because for all the good qualities the mega Zards have such as high damage output, sweeping or wall breaking power, stealth rock keeps them in check. You seem not to understand that even though I have already repeated that for most of the discussion. That is also why I say boots is broken as these dangerous mons were kept in check by hazards, as I've said multiple times, but boots allow them to straight up ignore it

 

[musiquepkmn]

Do I have a reason not to be fixated? I thought I said the reason on why I believe boots is the real culprit on why Cinderace is broken

And as I already mentioned, boots make pokemon that were difficult to deal with even more difficult. Why do you think I keep comparing Cinderace to the mega Charizards? Because for all the good qualities the mega Zards have such as high damage output, sweeping or wall breaking power, stealth rock keeps them in check. You seem not to understand that even though I have already repeated that for most of the discussion. That is also why I say boots is broken as these dangerous mons were kept in check by hazards, as I've said multiple times, but boots allow them to straight up ignore it

But how can you say boots are the real culprit behind why Cinderace is broken when in reality, it's its moves because without any moves other than tackle Cinderace would be bad? What specifically about boots makes it so that it is the reason why Cinderace is broken, apart from the millions of other things that could be taken away from Cinderace that it relies on even more heavily than boots?

Your point seems to be about how the mzards were kept in check by hazards, but do you not see how they were also "kept in check" by the fact that they didn't have omni-omega-boosting moves, weren't immune to all forms of damage, and couldn't attack more than once in a turn?

 

[Gomi]

a pokemon being broken because of an item really shouldn't be the crux of your argument or you could argue practically every item is overbearing to deal with really, It's just kind of silly. better to focus on how they actually impact the tier instead of just saying "cinderace would've sucked without boots" because you're really leaving yourself open for the obligatory "but every ubers mon would be OU if we banned X item,,,,,owned!!!" which to be fair makes sense if you look at it through that lens, especially since realistically Cinderace is the only previously OU pokemon you can really say was banned because of boots heavily benefitting its general gameplan.

not gonna touch on the actual boots discussion because honestly I just don't care, but seeing the same X would be fine without Y argument in regards to item bans is just kinda annoying

 

[Jordy]

actual modpost

Anyone is free to share their opinion, but this is quite ridiculous and hardly a discussion anymore. You're just going on and on in circles and nothing productive is happening. I don't mind having a discussion on Heavy-Duty Boots here and I'm not going to bar it for now, but it's important for it to stay productive and to not constantly restate your argument in an aggressive manner just because some people disagree.

 

[Eeveeto]

Boots are the best thing that happened this Gen, period. They are not even close of being broken and make the Metagame way better. Why does the meta has to be hazard centered AGAIN? If a Mon is broken, it will generally be broken with Boots or without Boots but with good hazard control. No one ever spoke of banning Zapdos and Skarmory in Gen 2 or Gengar and Aerodactyl in Gen 3 when they were REALLY strong Mons and esentially had Boots while other (grounded) Mons, didn,t. You have normalized Stealth Rock too much while (with and without Boots) good teams without the move can be made.

The same Cinderace example is a good one. I don,t see any diference between Boots Cinderace or Cinderace + Tornadus-T + Excadrill (both of which are not passive and provide extra offensive pressure while removing some of the Cinderace checks. In fact, once Cinderace is actually into the field, switching into it becomes even harder without Boots, since it would have a better item such as EBelt, Protective Pads or Life Orb. The only downside is spending those turns actually removing the Hazards, but the best players would still be able to do it and make Cinderace look broken. Personally I was not so sure about Ace being broken, but in case it was, Boots were only a VERY SMALL factor about it.

You want to break bulky cores? Use wallbreakers instead of just expecting hazards do the job for you. Crawdaunt exists. Garchomp has very few checks and Boots don,t even help too much most of them (Lando and Boomer never use Boots, Clefable only does when Unaware). Taunt + Toxic offensive Heatran has virtually 0 switch-ins (why has it never been suspected btw?). And there are many more. Bring Mons that abuse Boots holders, SPAM Status + Specs Hex Pult, there are millinos of ways to make progress without the Hazards.

Tornadus-T (which might be broken, but due to having NP, not Boots) and Volcarona (which with Heatran shouldn,t even be that common) annoying you? You know, Knock Off exists. That move 9 Mons among the S and A ranks alone have. That move, that is so splashable and with few reasons not to run. That move that not only works to remove Boots, but also every single item unless your opponent is a Sticky Hold Gastrodon or Silvally. Of course, a good opponent won,t let you removing his most valuable item easily, but thats why predicting is a thing.

Sorry if I sounded aggresive (fuck Jordy though, you must allow fun to happen), but I was getting really tired of all this complains and needed to blow off the steam. Hopefully now I can stay away from posting here for another few Months

 

[Red Raven]

But how can you say boots are the real culprit behind why Cinderace is broken when in reality, it's its moves because without any moves other than tackle Cinderace would be bad? What specifically about boots makes it so that it is the reason why Cinderace is broken, apart from the millions of other things that could be taken away from Cinderace that it relies on even more heavily than boots?

Your point seems to be about how the mzards were kept in check by hazards, but do you not see how they were also "kept in check" by the fact that they didn't have omni-omega-boosting moves, weren't immune to all forms of damage, and couldn't attack more than once in a turn?

Here's a question, for you, why exactly would I not think Cinderace would not be broken without boots? I've already made my point so I'm not even gonna bother to repeat it again

Try playing against a Zard y and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you like facing off against that thing when it comes in unpunished and starts blasting you with sun boosted flamethrowers. Go on, try it first, because that's exactly what Cinderace was all about, unpunished switch ins

You seem to keep missing the point, which is that I think Cinderace would be manageable without boots as stealth rock would keep it in check instead of resorting to tank chomp or baneful helmet Pex. Because no matter how many good qualities you have, your viability will be hampered if you lose much just by switching in. That won't necessarily mean that the mon is trash, that would only mean that if you want to use this mon with all these great qualities but has major issues getting in, you would actually have to put in the effort to get it in as unharmed as possible

a pokemon being broken because of an item really shouldn't be the crux of your argument or you could argue practically every item is overbearing to deal with really, It's just kind of silly. better to focus on how they actually impact the tier instead of just saying "cinderace would've sucked without boots" because you're really leaving yourself open for the obligatory "but every ubers mon would be OU if we banned X item,,,,,owned!!!" which to be fair makes sense if you look at it through that lens, especially since realistically Cinderace is the only previously OU pokemon you can really say was banned because of boots heavily benefitting its general gameplan.

not gonna touch on the actual boots discussion because honestly I just don't care, but seeing the same X would be fine without Y argument in regards to item bans is just kinda annoying

Have you actually read the full argument or just focused on the part where I think that boots is what made Cinderace broken? No I don't open myself up to that nonsense because none of the other items have the same effect as boots and just about every uber mon uses the same items as the ou ones, except maybe for the primals but those aren't a thing anymore

Boots are the best thing that happened this Gen, period. They are not even close of being broken and make the Metagame way better. Why does the meta has to be hazard centered AGAIN? If a Mon is broken, it will generally be broken with Boots or without Boots but with good hazard control. No one ever spoke of banning Zapdos and Skarmory in Gen 2 or Gengar and Aerodactyl in Gen 3 when they were REALLY strong Mons and esentially had Boots while other (grounded) Mons, didn,t. You have normalized Stealth Rock too much while (with and without Boots) good teams without the move can be made.

The same Cinderace example is a good one. I don,t see any diference between Boots Cinderace or Cinderace + Tornadus-T + Excadrill (both of which are not passive and provide extra offensive pressure while removing some of the Cinderace checks. In fact, once Cinderace is actually into the field, switching into it becomes even harder without Boots, since it would have a better item such as EBelt, Protective Pads or Life Orb. The only downside is spending those turns actually removing the Hazards, but the best players would still be able to do it and make Cinderace look broken. Personally I was not so sure about Ace being broken, but in case it was, Boots were only a VERY SMALL factor about it.

You want to break bulky cores? Use wallbreakers instead of just expecting hazards do the job for you. Crawdaunt exists. Garchomp has very few checks and Boots don,t even help too much most of them (Lando and Boomer never use Boots, Clefable only does when Unaware). Taunt + Toxic offensive Heatran has virtually 0 switch-ins (why has it never been suspected btw?). And there are many more. Bring Mons that abuse Boots holders, SPAM Status + Specs Hex Pult, there are millinos of ways to make progress without the Hazards.

Tornadus-T (which might be broken, but due to having NP, not Boots) and Volcarona (which with Heatran shouldn,t even be that common) annoying you? You know, Knock Off exists. That move 9 Mons among the S and A ranks alone have. That move, that is so splashable and with few reasons not to run. That move that not only works to remove Boots, but also every single item unless your opponent is a Sticky Hold Gastrodon or Silvally. Of course, a good opponent won,t let you removing his most valuable item easily, but thats why predicting is a thing.

Sorry if I sounded aggresive (fuck Jordy though, you must allow fun to happen), but I was getting really tired of all this complains and needed to blow off the steam. Hopefully now I can stay away from posting here for another few Months

Yes, exactly missing the point that Cinderace would be punished for switching in if not for the boots as stealth rock would make vulnerable to something like Ferrothorn gyro ball along with cutting a quarter of its life

'The best players would make Cinderace look broken', well is everybody here among those best players? Does everybody here have like, 2000 elo?

And the metagame, while still revolves around hazards, is not that hazard centric anymore considering a lot of mons, even questionable ones like Rotom Wash, has defog

Do you even realize what you're saying? You're basically saying that if you want to be safe against Volcarona, you have to use Heatran every god damn team. That's almost as bad as having to run Buzzwole just not to auto lose to Urshifu

Again, go try what I said. Play against a mega Zard Y in gen seven and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you enjoy seeing that thing switch in unscathed

 

[Eeveeto]

Again, go try what I said. Play against a mega Zard Y in gen seven and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you enjoy seeing that thing switch in unscathed

Toxapex, Restalk Gyarados (a very good Mon), Mega Lati@s, Chansey, Victini, Garchomp, Rotom-H, Mega Altaria (with Cloud Nine pre-mega). Should I continue? Well, just with Toxapex is enough. Next question.

 

[Ehmcee]

I think in general most people can agree that the sheer utility of it's fast u-turn set with boots is probably what pushed it over the edge, so what?
ForstamemasNeetaroOoniqua , you've been focusing on Cinderace as being broken with boots, which is a fine opinion (I personally disliked the Mega Zard Y argument, it's mega stone forced it to not be able to run boots and it's sheer power far outranks cinderace). Now what else is deemed broken with boots?

 

[musiquepkmn]

Here's a question, for you, why exactly would I not think Cinderace would not be broken without boots? I've already made my point so I'm not even gonna bother to repeat it again

Try playing against a Zard y and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you like facing off against that thing when it comes in unpunished and starts blasting you with sun boosted flamethrowers. Go on, try it first, because that's exactly what Cinderace was all about, unpunished switch ins

You seem to keep missing the point, which is that I think Cinderace would be manageable without boots as stealth rock would keep it in check instead of resorting to tank chomp or baneful helmet Pex. Because no matter how many good qualities you have, your viability will be hampered if you lose much just by switching in. That won't necessarily mean that the mon is trash, that would only mean that if you want to use this mon with all these great qualities but has major issues getting in, you would actually have to put in the effort to get it in as unharmed as possible

This is the last I'll be responding to this argument, since Jordy has already expressed how he doesn't like us going around in circles again, but I feel like I need to respond at least one last time.

I'll preface this by saying you are entirely right: Cinderace would be manageable without boots as stealth rock would keep it in check instead of resorting to tank chomp or baneful helmet pex. Taking 25% or more upon switch in is a dealbreaker for most pokemon save the strongest.

Furthermore, you are right that a large part of what kept the mega zards in check was that they took hefty stealth rock damage. Without that, it would be incredibly difficult to handle them, and there's a chance they could even have been banworthy.

Here's the thing: The problem starts when you try to use this as an argument to ban boots. Boots definitely are a very strong aspect of competitive pokemon, and it doesn't need to be restated how much some pokemon would be nerfed if boots were to be removed. However, this is also the case with many other aspects of pokemon. Mons like Tornadus-T are at the mercy of luck whenever they wish to attack. Remove the chance of moves missing, and it may mean all of a sudden Torn-T is banworthy. Pokemon like Toxapex thrive on the secondary effects of their moves. Remove the secondary effects of moves, and all of a sudden Toxapex isn't even threatening anymore. Pokemon like Moltres and Mandibuzz hate getting hit with a Toxic. Remove those forms of passive damage through status, and all of a sudden they feel unbreakable.

This can even be taken to the next extreme. Offensive pokemon often rely on their moves. Take away those moves, and all of a sudden the pokemon is useless.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? You make some excellent points about how Boots make mons like Cinderace very powerful, but you fail to show how boots are any different from any other form of bannable attribute. Sure, Cinderace would be manageable without Boots, but it would also be manageable without Libero. I'm not doubting the power of boots here, I'm simply saying that if you are to prove that Boots themselves are banworthy, rather than the pokemon, you have to demonstrate that boots specifically make multiple pokemon broken, rather than any other trait that this pokemon possesses. This is the case for things like non-evasion Moody, as even mons like Ledian and Beartic become incredibly strong when at high enough boosting levels. Non-evasion moody transcends how strong, or how fast, or how strong the pokemon's moves are, it is just so strong that any mon with it will be able to find good success. However, this simply isn't the case with boots. Let's take a not-so-extreme example here: Scyther. Scyther wields STAB U-turn, and high attack and speed stat, and a quad-weakness to rocks. However, even with boots, Scyther still finds itself in PU. Why is this the case? Well, it's because Scyther simply isn't good. Even though it gets infinite "free" switches due to boots, its frailty, terrible offensive typing, and low base power moves hold it back. Even though Boots themselves have made this mon much better than it has been before, they aren't strong enough to singlehandedly propel this pokemon from the depths of PU to OU, like how non-evasion moody propelled the ZU Glalie to a point where it was broken.

If smogon were organized another way, maybe this could be a topic of consideration. Boots, admittedly, are powerful, and banning them would certainly make pokemon like Cinderace manageable. However, because of the way smogon is organized, bans on anything other than pokemon have to have overwhelming evidence as to why and how they should be banned, as opposed to simply banning the abuser (see: Garmanitan). In the end, boots do not possess this power. If you were to argue about how boots could be considered uncompetitive, that's a different story. But to ban boots only due to how they make good pokemon great is absurd.

 

[Martin]

Oh and btw, I was hearing shit abt Lele and Kyurem might get Suspect Tested or some shit..? Is this true or is this like some suggestion from someone?

dont ban lele :(

I'm not on the council, but afaik their current policy is just waiting and watching to see what the community thinks needs addressing over the next few weeks. It's a little soon for us to know what is the most likely next suspect, as the meta is still in the early stages of settling after a very large shake-up. Both Cinderace and Magearna were metagame-defining and their brokenness kinda warped perceptions of other Pokémon's power levels a bit (just look at the whole Future Sight debacle from the beginning of DLC2 despite it only being debatable broken bc Cinderace, Pheromosa, and Magearna could very consistently use it as an option select), so people will need some time to reconsider their opinions.

 

[658Greninja]

Here's a question, for you, why exactly would I not think Cinderace would not be broken without boots? I've already made my point so I'm not even gonna bother to repeat it again

Try playing against a Zard y and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you like facing off against that thing when it comes in unpunished and starts blasting you with sun boosted flamethrowers. Go on, try it first, because that's exactly what Cinderace was all about, unpunished switch ins

You seem to keep missing the point, which is that I think Cinderace would be manageable without boots as stealth rock would keep it in check instead of resorting to tank chomp or baneful helmet Pex. Because no matter how many good qualities you have, your viability will be hampered if you lose much just by switching in. That won't necessarily mean that the mon is trash, that would only mean that if you want to use this mon with all these great qualities but has major issues getting in, you would actually have to put in the effort to get it in as unharmed as possible



Have you actually read the full argument or just focused on the part where I think that boots is what made Cinderace broken? No I don't open myself up to that nonsense because none of the other items have the same effect as boots and just about every uber mon uses the same items as the ou ones, except maybe for the primals but those aren't a thing anymore



Yes, exactly missing the point that Cinderace would be punished for switching in if not for the boots as stealth rock would make vulnerable to something like Ferrothorn gyro ball along with cutting a quarter of its life

'The best players would make Cinderace look broken', well is everybody here among those best players? Does everybody here have like, 2000 elo?

And the metagame, while still revolves around hazards, is not that hazard centric anymore considering a lot of mons, even questionable ones like Rotom Wash, has defog

Do you even realize what you're saying? You're basically saying that if you want to be safe against Volcarona, you have to use Heatran every god damn team. That's almost as bad as having to run Buzzwole just not to auto lose to Urshifu

Again, go try what I said. Play against a mega Zard Y in gen seven and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you enjoy seeing that thing switch in unscathed

Sure, before the QB, Ace was broken and Boots made that all the more evident, but quick question. What other mon is broken thanks to Boots? I’ll wait.

“Try playing against a Zard y and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you like facing off against that thing when it comes in unpunished and starts blasting you with sun boosted flamethrowers. Go on, try it first, because that's exactly what Cinderace was all about, unpunished switch ins.”

I don’t need rocks when Zard Y can’t break past my M-Lati, Pex, Gliscor teams anyways lol.

(Side Note: Mentioning USUM as a counterargument to pro-Boots doesn’t make sense since both they are two different gens. Not to mention Ace and Zard Y had different roles. Oh and Zard Y didn’t have 119 fucking speed nor did it have U-Turn.)

Even without Boots, Ace still had little to no strong counterplay since it’s “counters” other than Hippo had a host of problems when dealing with Ace.

“'The best players would make Cinderace look broken', well is everybody here among those best players? Does everybody here have like, 2000 elo?”

No and neither do I but when looking at what is effective, mediocre, balanced, or unhealthy, it’s usually determined based on how they perform in the hands of the best vs the best. It’s why the VR is structured the way it is. This goes for any competitive meta for that matter.

Rocks and other hazards are still centric to the metagame. It’s just that now because of Boots you have to think a little more when trying to make progress. There are other ways of making progress such as status, Voltturn, Knock Off, Trick, and strong breakers like Kyurem.

“Do you even realize what you're saying? You're basically saying that if you want to be safe against Volcarona, you have to use Heatran every god damn team. That's almost as bad as having to run Buzzwole just not to auto lose to Urshifu.”

Heatran isn’t the only counterplay to Volc. Eeveeto only mentioned Tran cause it’s the best one. Volc can be handled by these mons, whether they are checks or full on counters.

-Blissey (Beats non-Safeguard variants)
-Hex Pult (Can’t switch in repeatedly but it checks non-Safeguard variants)
-Tapu Fini (Can use Volc as setup or outright stop it’s sweep all together with Taunt)
-Ttar (Can take a Bug Buzz and kill it with Rock Blast)
-SD Chomp (Can check non-offensive Volc)
-SpD Hippo (Not a full on counter but it can constantly wear it down with Toxic + Sand chip)
-Gastrodon (Toxic and Clear Smog beats all Volc variants)
-Scarf or Offensive Lando (Checks all non-offensive Volc variants)
-Toxapex (Beats Safeguard Volc variants)
-Lele (Can check non-offensive variants)
-RS Shifu (Aqua Jet)
-Crawdaunt (Can switch into Bulkarona once or twice and scare it out)
-NP Hydreigon (Beats non-offensive variants)
-Psyshock Latios (Beats non-offensive variants)

 

[glava222]

while we are on the general topic of rocks I would like to ask for some opinions: I have seen offensive teams run just rocks, rocks+spikes stack or even no hazards. Which of these do you think works the best? From my experience, playing a screens team and a BO trick room team, I often found that both of those teams performed much better when I just didn't click rocks, as I would often lose a lot of valuable momentum which would be hard to reclaim when I clicked rocks,and it didn't really feel worth it.
So I guess my question is what your opinion is on entry hazards on offensive teams(mostly HO, but also other offensive archetypes)?

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

while we are on the general topic of rocks I would like to ask for some opinions: I have seen offensive teams run just rocks, rocks+spikes stack or even no hazards. Which of these do you think works the best? From my experience, playing a screens team and a BO trick room team, I often found that both of those teams performed much better when I just didn't click rocks, as I would often lose a lot of valuable momentum which would be hard to reclaim when I clicked rocks,and it didn't really feel worth it.
So I guess my question is what your opinion is on entry hazards on offensive teams(mostly HO, but also other offensive archetypes)?

Whenever I play HO, the only hazards I play is rocks or webs using lead mons that can take momentum by dying (so those with final Gambit and explosion).

 

[pulsar512b]

while we are on the general topic of rocks I would like to ask for some opinions: I have seen offensive teams run just rocks, rocks+spikes stack or even no hazards. Which of these do you think works the best? From my experience, playing a screens team and a BO trick room team, I often found that both of those teams performed much better when I just didn't click rocks, as I would often lose a lot of valuable momentum which would be hard to reclaim when I clicked rocks,and it didn't really feel worth it.
So I guess my question is what your opinion is on entry hazards on offensive teams(mostly HO, but also other offensive archetypes)?

The answer (which I know ends up being near-useless....) is that it depends on the team :)
HO seems to like using lando-t as a suicide lead, so probably most common is just rocks, but mew and even rockless teams also make sense.

 

[Red Raven]

This is the last I'll be responding to this argument, since Jordy has already expressed how he doesn't like us going around in circles again, but I feel like I need to respond at least one last time.

I'll preface this by saying you are entirely right: Cinderace would be manageable without boots as stealth rock would keep it in check instead of resorting to tank chomp or baneful helmet pex. Taking 25% or more upon switch in is a dealbreaker for most pokemon save the strongest.

Furthermore, you are right that a large part of what kept the mega zards in check was that they took hefty stealth rock damage. Without that, it would be incredibly difficult to handle them, and there's a chance they could even have been banworthy.

Here's the thing: The problem starts when you try to use this as an argument to ban boots. Boots definitely are a very strong aspect of competitive pokemon, and it doesn't need to be restated how much some pokemon would be nerfed if boots were to be removed. However, this is also the case with many other aspects of pokemon. Mons like Tornadus-T are at the mercy of luck whenever they wish to attack. Remove the chance of moves missing, and it may mean all of a sudden Torn-T is banworthy. Pokemon like Toxapex thrive on the secondary effects of their moves. Remove the secondary effects of moves, and all of a sudden Toxapex isn't even threatening anymore. Pokemon like Moltres and Mandibuzz hate getting hit with a Toxic. Remove those forms of passive damage through status, and all of a sudden they feel unbreakable.

This can even be taken to the next extreme. Offensive pokemon often rely on their moves. Take away those moves, and all of a sudden the pokemon is useless.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? You make some excellent points about how Boots make mons like Cinderace very powerful, but you fail to show how boots are any different from any other form of bannable attribute. Sure, Cinderace would be manageable without Boots, but it would also be manageable without Libero. I'm not doubting the power of boots here, I'm simply saying that if you are to prove that Boots themselves are banworthy, rather than the pokemon, you have to demonstrate that boots specifically make multiple pokemon broken, rather than any other trait that this pokemon possesses. This is the case for things like non-evasion Moody, as even mons like Ledian and Beartic become incredibly strong when at high enough boosting levels. Non-evasion moody transcends how strong, or how fast, or how strong the pokemon's moves are, it is just so strong that any mon with it will be able to find good success. However, this simply isn't the case with boots. Let's take a not-so-extreme example here: Scyther. Scyther wields STAB U-turn, and high attack and speed stat, and a quad-weakness to rocks. However, even with boots, Scyther still finds itself in PU. Why is this the case? Well, it's because Scyther simply isn't good. Even though it gets infinite "free" switches due to boots, its frailty, terrible offensive typing, and low base power moves hold it back. Even though Boots themselves have made this mon much better than it has been before, they aren't strong enough to singlehandedly propel this pokemon from the depths of PU to OU, like how non-evasion moody propelled the ZU Glalie to a point where it was broken.

If smogon were organized another way, maybe this could be a topic of consideration. Boots, admittedly, are powerful, and banning them would certainly make pokemon like Cinderace manageable. However, because of the way smogon is organized, bans on anything other than pokemon have to have overwhelming evidence as to why and how they should be banned, as opposed to simply banning the abuser (see: Garmanitan). In the end, boots do not possess this power. If you were to argue about how boots could be considered uncompetitive, that's a different story. But to ban boots only due to how they make good pokemon great is absurd.

As I said earlier, boots only made pokemon using them that much more difficult to play with. Tornadus Therian and Volcarona are good examples. They have always been kept in check by stealth rock, or to be precies, Tornaduse Therian was kept in check by both rocks and whatever damage it takes slowly adding up. If Tornadus uses moves where it can actually aim then it would be banned by now, unless of course rain but rain probably isn't the beast play style. Volcarona can easily get out of hand even if it gets a boost and forced to switch out as it won't get punished, which gets worse when you realize that probably only Tyranitar, Blissey and Heatran can stop it from getting that far. The main point was it made dangerous mons more difficult to deal with and not necessarily broken. The only reason I said Cinderace was broken because of the boots is because it already had a million great qualities and the boots single handedly removed that

About libero, well, just look at Greninja from gen seven. It's checks and counters existed and it had a hit and run style like Cinderace but it wasn't exactly that overwhelming. Stealth rock may not have been the direct cause but it certainly contributed to stop Greninja from getting too far

That example about Scyther is horrible. Scyther is not a good pokemon, it's as simple as that. As I said, if a pokemon truly is good, then it must find a way to deal with stealth rocks in the same manner as Tornadus Therian and Zapdos from the last two gens

Sure, before the QB, Ace was broken and Boots made that all the more evident, but quick question. What other mon is broken thanks to Boots? I’ll wait.

“Try playing against a Zard y and don't click stealth rock. Let's see if you like facing off against that thing when it comes in unpunished and starts blasting you with sun boosted flamethrowers. Go on, try it first, because that's exactly what Cinderace was all about, unpunished switch ins.”

I don’t need rocks when Zard Y can’t break past my M-Lati, Pex, Gliscor teams anyways lol.

(Side Note: Mentioning USUM as a counterargument to pro-Boots doesn’t make sense since both they are two different gens. Not to mention Ace and Zard Y had different roles. Oh and Zard Y didn’t have 119 fucking speed nor did it have U-Turn.)

Even without Boots, Ace still had little to no strong counterplay since it’s “counters” other than Hippo had a host of problems when dealing with Ace.

“'The best players would make Cinderace look broken', well is everybody here among those best players? Does everybody here have like, 2000 elo?”

No and neither do I but when looking at what is effective, mediocre, balanced, or unhealthy, it’s usually determined based on how they perform in the hands of the best vs the best. It’s why the VR is structured the way it is. This goes for any competitive meta for that matter.

Rocks and other hazards are still centric to the metagame. It’s just that now because of Boots you have to think a little more when trying to make progress. There are other ways of making progress such as status, Voltturn, Knock Off, Trick, and strong breakers like Kyurem.

“Do you even realize what you're saying? You're basically saying that if you want to be safe against Volcarona, you have to use Heatran every god damn team. That's almost as bad as having to run Buzzwole just not to auto lose to Urshifu.”

Heatran isn’t the only counterplay to Volc. Eeveeto only mentioned Tran cause it’s the best one. Volc can be handled by these mons, whether they are checks or full on counters.

-Blissey (Beats non-Safeguard variants)
-Hex Pult (Can’t switch in repeatedly but it checks non-Safeguard variants)
-Tapu Fini (Can use Volc as setup or outright stop it’s sweep all together with Taunt)
-Ttar (Can take a Bug Buzz and kill it with Rock Blast)
-SD Chomp (Can check non-offensive Volc)
-SpD Hippo (Not a full on counter but it can constantly wear it down with Toxic + Sand chip)
-Gastrodon (Toxic and Clear Smog beats all Volc variants)
-Scarf or Offensive Lando (Checks all non-offensive Volc variants)
-Toxapex (Beats Safeguard Volc variants)
-Lele (Can check non-offensive variants)
-RS Shifu (Aqua Jet)
-Crawdaunt (Can switch into Bulkarona once or twice and scare it out)
-NP Hydreigon (Beats non-offensive variants)
-Psyshock Latios (Beats non-offensive variants)

Yes, completely missing the god damn point of why I compared Zard Y to Cinderace in the first place

And you're still falling under my argument that you would have to run one of these mons if you want to be safe against Volcarona if you played a bad game

"What other mons are broken thanks to boots?"

Have you actually read? Because if you did, you would realize that what I said was it made dangerous mons that much more difficult to deal with, Cinderace, which would be manageable if it was getting punished for coming in, was made broken because the only way to punish it was tank chomp or whatever else rocky helmet users. In case you might not understand, that means that I only said Cinderace became broken but other boots loving mons became more difficult to deal with

 

[jorm201]

I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, but here is a Pyukumuku set that can be used in gen 7, I'm not sure if gen 8 has leppa berry.


Pyukumuku (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Recycle
- Rest
- Recover


Leppa and Recycle lets it pp stall more walls than one. With Max sp.def it can take on more sp. attackers like Volcarona, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus. Look out for Knock Off, especially from Gliscor, who it can't out-stall without leppa.

STALL SLAYING CUCUMBER

Actually, Knock Off isn't as bad of an issue as I thought. I figured out if you pp drain your own recover, you can activate your leppa. Thus, it is safe inside the cucumber's belly and can't be Knocked Off. Then you're free to spam block indiscriminately, even if it's Magic Bounced back onto you, you can heal until Recover reaches zero again and, as long as you're slower, you can use Leppa and eat in the same turn. Rinse and repeat and this Pyuku can destroy all of stall except maybe Zapdos and Tangrowth, but if it isn't critted it can survive Tangrowth a large portion of the time:

0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 246 HP / 50 SpD Pyukumuku through Light Screen: 67-81 (21.4 - 25.9%) -- 1.9% chance to 4HKO

Here is a replay of the set

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-1294803747-rz9rjr94u0u5whtvq1vp3f2r6v7rvn7pw

---

Update!

I've reached top 100 with two different accounts using the pyuku set as my usual win condition. It is a very solid answer to opposing stall.

 

[658Greninja]

As I said earlier, boots only made pokemon using them that much more difficult to play with. Tornadus Therian and Volcarona are good examples. They have always been kept in check by stealth rock, or to be precies, Tornaduse Therian was kept in check by both rocks and whatever damage it takes slowly adding up. If Tornadus uses moves where it can actually aim then it would be banned by now, unless of course rain but rain probably isn't the beast play style. Volcarona can easily get out of hand even if it gets a boost and forced to switch out as it won't get punished, which gets worse when you realize that probably only Tyranitar, Blissey and Heatran can stop it from getting that far. The main point was it made dangerous mons more difficult to deal with and not necessarily broken. The only reason I said Cinderace was broken because of the boots is because it already had a million great qualities and the boots single handedly removed that

If a mon that abuses Boots is also broken, then just ban the mon. No need to ban boots and then make Moltres hit an even bigger low. Whether or not Torn-T is too much for the metagame is debatable but it does have some counters like Zapdos, Koko, and Zera along with a few good checks/soft checks like Specs Pult, Slowking, Blissey, Weavile, etc. However there is an argument that Torn p much forces you to run these mons, but this is something for another day. Also didn’t I just list a good number of checks and counters to Volc? More on that later.

About libero, well, just look at Greninja from gen seven. It's checks and counters existed and it had a hit and run style like Cinderace but it wasn't exactly that overwhelming. Stealth rock may not have been the direct cause but it certainly contributed to stop Greninja from getting too far

That example about Scyther is horrible. Scyther is not a good pokemon, it's as simple as that. As I said, if a pokemon truly is good, then it must find a way to deal with stealth rocks in the same manner as Tornadus Therian and Zapdos from the last two gens

I believe what Musique was referring to was Gren in Gen 6, not Gen 7. ORAS Gren was very similar to Ace. Both have great coverage, the same ability, and were fast asf.

Musique brought up Scyther as an argument on Boots being unhealthy. Boots are supposedly too much for the metagame yet shit like Ninjask and Noivern can hardly even scratch OU. For a move, ability, or item to be broken, it has to make a garbage mon into an uncompetitive mess. (Gothitelle, Glalie, Dugtrio, etc). You missed the point Muisque and everyone else was trying to bring up.

Yes, completely missing the god damn point of why I compared Zard Y to Cinderace in the first place

And you're still falling under my argument that you would have to run one of these mons if you want to be safe against Volcarona if you played a bad game

"What other mons are broken thanks to boots?"

Have you actually read? Because if you did, you would realize that what I said was it made dangerous mons that much more difficult to deal with, Cinderace, which would be manageable if it was getting punished for coming in, was made broken because the only way to punish it was tank chomp or whatever else rocky helmet users. In case you might not understand, that means that I only said Cinderace became broken but other boots loving mons became more difficult to deal with

What point exactly? These two mons play differently. One is a breaker with Roost for longevity, the other is an offensive pivot with high powered moves and a great speed tier.

Also wtf are you talking about in regards to Volc? I straight up listed 14 good checks and counters to Volcarona. All of these mons are highly meta relevant with most of them being Top 20 or Top 10 material respectively.

Yes Boots made some mons better/way better in the metagame, but it didn’t break these mons. Ace prob would’ve still gotten banned even if Boots weren’t in the game. Remember Mence from DPPT? Remember Torn-T and Thundy from BW? Remember the monstrocity that was Mega-Mence? All these mons are rock weak but guess what, they all got banned. They had banworthy traits that pushed them to Uber material. Even if you take away Ace’s boots you still only have five fucking counters to it in the whole game. Lando and Chomp will still get worn down quickly especially since Ace would be able to run LO/Band now. Slowbro is U-Turn bait, and Hippo is 2HKOd after rocks in an alternate timeline where LO Ace is a thing. It means run Pex or die. To put it simply, Boots added to Ace’s brokenness, but even without it Ace is still broken cause a reminder that it has only five counters in the whole game. Torn and Slowbro being broken is up to debate, and if they are then simply ban them instead of Boots. I know for a fact Mandi and Koko aren’t breaking the game with boots equipped.