Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #2753)

I'm not surprised. Kartana does have a higher attack stat than freaking Mega Rayquaza. I think Tornadus heat wave would be really good by switching in on the swords dance. It's still fragile af and it won't get any boosts to its speed if its life orb so I don't think it should be too much of a problem
 
:buzzwole: this pokemon should drop because of Zygarde and Kyurem-B bans anyway.
I don't think that Buzzwole will cease to be viable now that Zygarde and Kyu-B are gone. Its ability to completely block non-acrobatics Urshifu is invaluable. It covers Urshifu while also covering the tier's grass and ground types that Corviknight/Mandibuzz are also supposed to check. The ability to run Rocky Helmet to also cover Melmetal is very good too.
 
Ok, I like pink mons beated me to Kartana, so I'm gonna talk about Dragonite.
1605793922654.png


Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Extreme Speed / Fire Punch / Roost
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
Now that Zygarde and Black Kyurem has cleared out of the tier, Dragonite lost its two best competitiors and can come forward as a great Dragon Dance (go away, Kommo-O). Dragonite's best quality is Multiscale, which halves all damage it takes (besides Mold Breaker) at full HP. This allows it to setup much more easily than other Pokemon despite its medicore bulk. Boots is the obvious item for Dragonite to hold, not allowing hazards to weaken Multiscale. However, I have found Weakness Policy quite useful if you manage to keep rocks at bay (and I'm quite good at that if I would say so myself, having played with Volcarona for almost my entire stay in SM OU). Another gift this generation gave Dragonite is Dual Wingbeat, finally giving it reliable physical Flying STAB. Dual Wingbeat can also break subs, which is nice. For the last two moveslots... well, go on the smogon dex and look at it yourself. It's enormous. The moves I have found most useful are the ones listed above, however. Earthquake allows Dragonite to destroy most Steel-types, most notably Heatran, as well as motherfreaking Toxapex. Fire Punch, on the other hand, destroys Steel-types Earthquake can't kill, such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. Extreme Speed is priority and allows Dragonite to become a revenge killer, and can pick off faster threats after a Dragon Dance, most of which are Choice Scarfed Pokemon. Finally, Roost allows you to heal and get Multiscale back up, but Dragonite definately will miss the coverage. There are also other moves Dragonite can use (as I said, its movepool is enormous). It has Stone Edge, Thunder and Ice Punch, Superpower, Dragon Claw/Outrage for Dragon STAB, and Aqua Tail, among others. And I can only wish it have a good special attack - its special movepool is just as good as, if not better than, its physical movepool.

Yeah, it's fairly obvious how this set plays out - Dragon Dance and sweep. With Multiscale, not much can knock out Dragonite before Dragonite sets up a Dragon Dance, and often after a Dragon Dance it's all over. Dragonite also has the luxury of picking what can check or counter with its ungodly movepool. And a bunch of people forgets that Dragonite still has base 134 Atk, and it is still a very meaty attack stat. This is partially what makes Weakness Policy so deadly - at +3 attack, Dragonite can easily blow through everything it sees. Of course, Weakness Policy is ruined if rocks are up, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots are so good on Dragonite.

For teammates, Dragonite appreciates teammates taking down bulkier Pokemon that Dragonite can't break through like Zapdos and Mandibuzz. If running Weakness Policy, hazard removal is absolutely mandatory. Also, even though Dragonite's attack stat is meaty, it isn't meaty enough to take on the most buff threats in the tier. As such, wallbreakers are appreciated. Teammates that appreciates Dragonite cleaning or revenging will appreciate Dragonite. I have found Dragonite to be effective with a secondary sweeper/cleaner like Volcarona or Choice Scarf Kartana, as one can weaken the opposing team for another to sweep. For example, Volcarona can weaken Toxapex with Psychic for Dragonite to kill it in one shot.

As always, I've probably missed something. Feel free to point it out!
 
I've recently been using Keldeo as a pivot and I'm quite impressed with how well it performs. I use the following set:



Keldeo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Toxic / Icy Wind
- Flip Turn

This set is really good at generating momentum. It messes with a lot of common defensive mons like Heatran, TTar, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Lando-T, Moltres, Hippodown, Buzzwole (Surf 2HKOS), Swampert (kinda). Destorying Blissey is especially good since quite a few teams rely on it to check special attackers, and surf is really spammable . Toxic is great for hitting mons that don't mind taking a hit from it, like SpDef Mandibuzz, Zapdos, AV Torn, Dragonite although Icy Wind is useful for hitting Grass and Dragon Types, and the speed drops can be really useful.
This set is also excellent because it baits in bulky waters like Toxapex, Fini and Slowbro, as they are they are generally the few mons that don't mind switching into it, on which it can Flip Turn to bring in mons to exploit them. Keldeo's speed tier is decent, outspeeding mons like Garchomp, Urshifu, Zapdos-G, non-sand excadrill, Nidoking.
Sadly it does fall short of mons like Kartana, Latios, Kartana, Tapu Koko and Cinderace, but it still great when it comes in on slower offensive mons or the aforementioned defensive ones. Its bulk is also surprisngly decent, as it capable of taking a few neutral hits, and being a one-time Wicked Blow switch in. Together with boots, it has great staying power throughout matches. Choice variants may be an option, but ignoring rocks/spikes and not having to predict is really what makes this set shine
I enjoy pairing it with specs Koko due to how it baits bulky water types in and they can form a Flip-Switch core, but it is generally really good at bringing offensive mons in due to how much it threatens. Spectrier is another excellent partner as Keldeo easily gets rid of Blissey and TTar, along with the fact that it spreads status for it's hexes
It isn't the best mon around, but I think it has a niche and nearly always puts in work in matches, so I'd highly recommend it
 
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:ss/barraskewda:

I want to talk about this abomination and his spot on rain


Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat/Psychic Fangs

Before start, I want to say this creature is ugly, one of the worst conceptions that the creativity of the human mind can get, however what this nightmare fuel have of ugliness, it have in utility, its bestiality is the closest you can get to :dracovish:, both in horrendous appearance and raw power, except it doesnt 2HKO :toxapex: and have zero bulk, but it has speed, and how it has speed! I've been using rain teams since DLC 1, :Rillaboom: and normal :Kyurem: were a big problem agaisnt rain, Rilla was in every fucking team, but guess what? After DLC2 they droped out in usage, and we get new tools agaisnt rilla, named :Tornadus-Therian:,:moltres:, and :zapdos:, and boom! this shit became real good! Nothing that isnt :Tangrowth:(i dont even see this spaghetti anymore), :Ferrothorn:, :Slowbro: :slowking: or Pex survives two banded Liquidation under rain, this includes :Melmetal:, :Latios:, :Rillaboom:, :Dragapult:, :Buzzwole:, :Kartana:, :Mandibuzz:, :Corviknight:, :Magearna:. It OHKO :Urshifu: after rocks, and OHKO most of the offensive shit that plagues dlc 2, and even outspeed them! :Regieleki:, :spectrier: and :pheromosa: are pussies in speed compared to this speed demon under rain, AND YOU DON'T EVEN NEED JOLLY. Run this thing adamant, give it a band, give liquidation, give flip turn, and see the most cowadly mon hard to switch into, even if you switch on the walls you can pivot with this thing to some counter. Also did I said how pivoting is ridiculous in rain? You can run easily an effective 6-volt-turn team, pivoting in :pelipper:, :swampert:, :Tornadus-Therian:, :zapdos:, :tapu fini: etc. The battle becomes a volleyball match were every mons just bounces around chipping oponent and doing insane 50/50 situations to your oponent, Its a really, really fun kind of team to use, because pivoting is fun! Also, Rilla Swords dance is still a great counter to Rain, I myself use rilla on my rain teams and never lose to any of them. It's still really hard to pass 1900, because everything is so broken offensively that hardly you can do mistakes, and oh my zap/moltres abilities are a pain, I just can't pass 1900 without get a burn against a 1600 player and dropping again, sad life.


Some calcs and why you cant usually safely switch into in barraska. Also remeber that barraska can instead do a really hard flip AND switch into the counter:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Rain: 179-211 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal in Rain: 241-285 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana in Rain: 131-155 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Rain: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
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I've recently been using Keldeo as a pivot and I'm quite impressed with how well it performs. I use the following set:



Keldeo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Toxic / Icy Wind
- Flip Turn

This set is really good at generating momentum. It messes with a lot of common defensive mons like Heatran, TTar, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Lando-T, Moltres, Hippodown, Buzzwole (Surf 2HKOS), Swampert (kinda). Destorying Blissey is especially good since quite a few teams rely on it to check special attackers, and surf is really spammable . Toxic is great for hitting mons that don't mind taking a hit from it, although Icy Wind is useful for hitting Grass and Dragon Types, and the speed drops can be really useful.
This set is also excellent because it baits in bulky waters like Toxapex, Fini and Slowbro, as they are they are generally the few mons that don't mind switching into it, on which it can Flip Turn to bring in mons to exploit them. Keldeo's speed tier is decent, outspeeding mons like Garchomp, Urshifu, Zapdos-G, non-sand excadrill, Nidoking.
Sadly it does fall short of mons like Kartana, Latios, Kartana, Tapu Koko and Cinderace, but it still great when it comes in on slower offensive mons or the aforementioned defensive ones. Its bulk is also surprisngly decent, as it capable of taking a few neutral hits, and being a one-time Wicked Blow switch in. Together with boots, it has great staying power throughout matches. Choice variants may be an option, but ignoring rocks/spikes and not having to predict is really what makes this set shine
I enjoy pairing it with specs Koko due to how it baits bulky water types in and they can form a Flip-Switch core, but it is generally really good at bringing offensive mons in due to how much it threatens.
It isn't the best mon around, but I think it has a niche and nearly always puts in work in matches, so I'd highly recommend it
Yes! Keldeo has always been underrated in the OU tier this gen, not because of its breaking power, but because of its great tendency to lure in Toxapex, Slowbro, and now Fini too. Flip Turn gave it a way of abusing this tendency. Although Specs Koko does synergize well, I think I will try this mon with Taunt-Roost Koko, as together they form a speedy, specially-based Volt-Turn core where both of the members do not care about Blissey, which is often relied on to tank special attackers like Koko.
 
Ok, I like pink mons beated me to Kartana, so I'm gonna talk about Dragonite.
View attachment 292650

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Extreme Speed / Fire Punch / Roost
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
Now that Zygarde and Black Kyurem has cleared out of the tier, Dragonite lost its two best competitiors and can come forward as a great Dragon Dance (go away, Kommo-O). Dragonite's best quality is Multiscale, which halves all damage it takes (besides Mold Breaker) at full HP. This allows it to setup much more easily than other Pokemon despite its medicore bulk. Boots is the obvious item for Dragonite to hold, not allowing hazards to weaken Multiscale. However, I have found Weakness Policy quite useful if you manage to keep rocks at bay (and I'm quite good at that if I would say so myself, having played with Volcarona for almost my entire stay in SM OU). Another gift this generation gave Dragonite is Dual Wingbeat, finally giving it reliable physical Flying STAB. Dual Wingbeat can also break subs, which is nice. For the last two moveslots... well, go on the smogon dex and look at it yourself. It's enormous. The moves I have found most useful are the ones listed above, however. Earthquake allows Dragonite to destroy most Steel-types, most notably Heatran, as well as motherfreaking Toxapex. Fire Punch, on the other hand, destroys Steel-types Earthquake can't kill, such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. Extreme Speed is priority and allows Dragonite to become a revenge killer, and can pick off faster threats after a Dragon Dance, most of which are Choice Scarfed Pokemon. Finally, Roost allows you to heal and get Multiscale back up, but Dragonite definately will miss the coverage. There are also other moves Dragonite can use (as I said, its movepool is enormous). It has Stone Edge, Thunder and Ice Punch, Superpower, Dragon Claw/Outrage for Dragon STAB, and Aqua Tail, among others. And I can only wish it have a good special attack - its special movepool is just as good as, if not better than, its physical movepool.

Yeah, it's fairly obvious how this set plays out - Dragon Dance and sweep. With Multiscale, not much can knock out Dragonite before Dragonite sets up a Dragon Dance, and often after a Dragon Dance it's all over. Dragonite also has the luxury of picking what can check or counter with its ungodly movepool. And a bunch of people forgets that Dragonite still has base 134 Atk, and it is still a very meaty attack stat. This is partially what makes Weakness Policy so deadly - at +3 attack, Dragonite can easily blow through everything it sees. Of course, Weakness Policy is ruined if rocks are up, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots are so good on Dragonite.

For teammates, Dragonite appreciates teammates taking down bulkier Pokemon that Dragonite can't break through like Zapdos and Mandibuzz. If running Weakness Policy, hazard removal is absolutely mandatory. Also, even though Dragonite's attack stat is meaty, it isn't meaty enough to take on the most buff threats in the tier. As such, wallbreakers are appreciated. Teammates that appreciates Dragonite cleaning or revenging will appreciate Dragonite. I have found Dragonite to be effective with a secondary sweeper/cleaner like Volcarona or Choice Scarf Kartana, as one can weaken the opposing team for another to sweep. For example, Volcarona can weaken Toxapex with Psychic for Dragonite to kill it in one shot.

As always, I've probably missed something. Feel free to point it out!
i would just like to add that dragonite also has a lot of defensive utility; it's immune to ground, quad resist grass, and resists fighting, fire and water attacks. Multiscale also allows it to easily tank pretty much any neutral or 2x super effective move once (and even some weaker ice moves).

The set i'm currently using on a stall team:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

This set uses extreme speed to revenge kill frail setup sweepers that would otherwise threaten the more passive members of my team, since extreme speed does enough damage to KO a lot of frailer pokemon with very small amounts of chip damage, and multiscale allows it to tank some very strong hits, so it can soak a hit from a glass cannon mon and probably kill it in retaliation. Since there are no boosting moves on this set, i run adamant to reduce the amount of chip it takes for espeed to KO, and max hp evs to ensure best mixed bulk.

This set can also infinitely switch on magma storm taunt heatran that can abuse my more passive mons, and then either KO it with earthquake, or reset its multiscale with roost, depending on whether I read the heatran will stay in or switch. Resetting multiscale with roost in general is very nice when you can get away with it, as it lets you tank much mor during the course of a game.

As was said this thing has awesome coverage combined with a meaty attack stat, and can often surprise enemies who don't guess what coverage is packing. It actually surprised me how often, with a little chip situations arose where dragonite for example espeed kills an enemy pheromosa, then they send out a steel type which dies to earthquake, and they try to send in something like lando-t that folds to ice punch, and I have seen this set straight sweep like 5 pokemon on a decently chipped team. Also this combination of moves enables to, with some prediction, even break through zapdos; you can chunk it with ice punch, predict a roost with earthquake which brings it into eSpeed range if it was not in very good health after the roost (of course this works much better if the opponent doesn't know what exact moves you are running).

What I've found that dragonite struggles against anything that can preemptively break it's multiscale, like knock off it's boots or weathers that deal damage, but the worst things are poison and burn, especially burn as it massively reduces both it's damage and survivability. Because of that, pokemon which can heal bell are really good partners. This specific set also like to have a partner that can deal with spectrier, as it can't be revenge killed by eSpeed.

tldr; dnite nice, can take hits well and give out hits, also this is my first post, so sorry if i wrote a bunch of bogus.
 

G-Luke

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With the removal of some of Toxapex's greatest threats, I personally feel as though it has grown too large for its britches. There are other offensive threats that do deal super effective damage, but they haven't the offensive stats of Zygarde and Kyurem Black to really threaten it.
Furthermore, Regenerator provides sustainable healing so long as you have another pokemon to switch to, making any pokemon incapable of dealing reliable 33%+ damage a non-threat, until you factor in the fact that its main set uses recover, healing it even further. Toxic and scald, depending on what you are facing, provide chip damage to whatever opponent you face, and Haze neutralizes any attempts to set up. Lest you forgo Toxic for Knock Off, you now have a way of preventing banded/spec'd pokemon from keeping that monumental 1.5x boost, and deny other pokemon Leftovers or Black Sludge. The latter of those you yourself use to keep the health high in the sky.
It is also a major defensive check/counter to a wide swathe of the meta, such as Urshifu-S and Volcarona, prominent offense-oriented pokemon, as well as most physical pokemon without a SE move, which is rare due to the only weaknesses of Toxapex being Electric and Psychic.
Granted, it does have counterplay in Tapu Koko and Regieleki, but simply having a ground type on your team to support Toxapex, which kazam1228 notes as,

makes those top Electric threats almost a non-issue.
Psychic types like Latias and Alakazam present little issue, because switching to a special wall like Chansey or Clefable act as checks sufficient enough to enable high-end switching, and recover all the damage dealt because of Regenerator, or even have the opponent make a slip, exposing them further.
There is little counterplay that cannot be negated, and because of its defensive nature Toxapex avoids the standard model for banning, which, while admittedly may be misremembered, goes along the lines of "broken offense is more noticeable and apparent". It is my personal belief that banning Toxapex will allow for a better metagame.
Sorry, I forgot to post this right away, but I feel the need to address this.

Tapu Koko and Regieleki are not the only answers to Toxapex, and in fact are some of the worst option available. Counterplay for Toxapex has never been better, so if you are seriously finding yourself lacking any means of handling it here are some cool tips.

:ss/heatran:
Heatran @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Flash Fire
Modest Nature
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Toxic / Protect / Stealth Rock

Trapper Heatran basically puts your opponent in a very tight bind. Here you have a very powerful Fire type who can put a huge chunk into your team, and you have a perfectly healthy Pex in the back. Your thought is to switch in and eat the hit, right? Well the moment you switch in and get hit by Magma Storm, that's a dead Toxapex, as you get trapped, and get Earth Powered to death. Otherwise your opponent gotta content with trying to eat a Magma Storm, and there is little else can handle doing all a that while being run alongside Toxapex.

:ss/tapu-fini:
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness

Or

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Draining Kiss
- Surf

Tapu Fini screws around with Toxapex fairly well, and basically turns non Toxic Spikes variants into complete fodder. Utility sets stop Toxapex from doing its most important role in forcing progress while walling the opponent, by preventing Status, while chunking its HP with Nature's Madness. Calm Mind sets take this one step further, and turn Toxapex into setup fodder, allowing it to clean up games once played right.

:ss/latios:
Latios @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire / Aura Sphere
- Trick / Recover

Latios is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers in the tier following the departure of Kyube and Zggy, and its not hard to see why. Its Draco Meteors even sting resiats, and having a powerful Psyshock that blows back "special walls" with ease. I am genuinely shocked that you would confidently claim that Latios is of little issue, as none of the Pokémon (including Toxapex) you mentioned can switch in on Psyshock. Worse than that, Specs has the additional tool of Trick, which turns Toxapex and the aforementioned Blissey into deadweight, and makes Clefable much easier to play around.

:ss/urshifu: + Future Sight
Urshifu @ Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Unseen Fist
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Sucker Punch / Iron Head

This is a tried and true method of shitting in balance cores, and as my comrade Jordy said a few pages before, this playstyle has 100% not lost its efficiency. Its pretty simple. Set Future Sight, get in Urshifu, and click the appropriate STAB and watch as something dies. If Toxaoex is your prominent Fighting resist, as it usually is, you usually either sack Toxapex, or sack a team mate to bring it in later, only for Urshifu to repeat that cycle a few turns later.


All of the threats I have mentioned are great Pokemon and would do exactly what I described regardless of whether or not Toxapex is in the game, so you don't gimp yourself by using these mons. I haven't even brought up several more niche (albeit more unreliable) ways of handling Toxapex, such as Tapu Lele, Calm Mind + Thunderbolt Clef, SubWisp Spectrier, Hydreigon and Nidoking, which are not top tier atm or are more prone to losing, but they still get the job done.

Toxapex is a fantastic Pokémon, helping us keep several threats at bay from destroying teams, but is by no means a broken threat in the Crown Tundra metagame. Quite honestly, if you are consistently losing to Toxapex in THIS metagame, maybe its not the problem here‍♂
 

ausma

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Hey all, I hope you're all doing well today! Today, I really want to talk about an archetype that's been rising in usage lately, and something that I've had a lot of fun experimenting with: Rain.

For those unaware, Weather Offense is a form of Hyper Offense that operates in a very unique way, utilizing weather setters to abuse Pokemon with weather-based abilities, such as Chlorophyll/Swift Swim, STABs boosted by weathers, etc.. However, it is an extremely inconsistent playstyle, primarily because it is extremely momentum focused (as per any HO playstyle), and because weathers need to be reset after a period of time, which forces a loss of momentum, and god forbid you go against another weather setter.

Though, I think with the ban of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde, Rain is looking extremely fearsome again for two reasons: the additional, synergistic options, and its optimized matchups. I want to break down each facet of rain, and explore why I think it's starting to become a much more considerable candidate for offensive archetypes in the tier.

Setters



As far as setting goes, Rain has had it pretty good compared to other setters. Pelipper is an incredible facilitator thanks to its awesome access to U-Turn, longevity in Roost, its defensive typing, and its set options. Thanks to having slow U-Turns, it's safely able to get in powerful weather abusers with relative ease, which is further accented thanks to its defensive typing and longevity. Its resistance to Fighting-type moves makes its Pheromosa matchup decent, and an outright immunity to Ground-type moves make it a pretty simple Pokemon to switch-in in many matchups, and as such it is very readily capable of resetting weather.

Politoed isn't anywhere near as good as Pelipper, but it performs decently as a backup setter. Its main niche over Pelipper is its neutrality to Rock-type moves and a resistance to Ice-type moves, letting it more readily combat opposing weather, alongside access to support moves like Encore. It's niche, but it has some merit.

What changed for the setters? The removal of Kyurem-Black, primarily, is notable. Thanks to losing a major threat that could readily press Fusion Bolt and Icicle Spear, Pelipper finds switch-ins considerably easier, and it finds even more opportunities to provide momentum for weather abusers that otherwise struggle to find switch-in opportunities. Kyurem-Black being a premier wallbreaker makes this a prominent buff for Rain teams that depend on being able to reset weather throughout the course of the game.

Abusers



Thanks to the introduction of a shiny new Zapdos with Hurricane and Weather Ball to Rain cores as well as the return of Tornadus-T, the synergy between Rain abusers is the best it's been throughout the entirety of the generation. Zapdos and Tornadus-T are able to lay out incredible pressure to Grass-types and walls like Corviknight that are willing to take on the onslaught of other abusers, and can provide momentum as well to provide ready switch-ins for wallbreakers. Zapdos, specifically, is an incredible addition for its access to STAB Thunder and Hurricane on top of boasting Weather Ball and a great defensive typing for Rain teams to exploit. Tornadus-T boasts a great speed tier and nuclear STAB Hurricanes that many Pokemon struggle to switch into, as well as having access to U-Turn to get in another weather abuser against AV Melmetal and Corviknight. Both can also provide Defog support if necessary.

It also greatly helps that Tangrowth and Amoonguss are fairly overwhelmed in the current metagame. Although they are both smoked by the new, welcome additions to Rain cores, their decrease in usage provides Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and Barraskewda with a much easier time spamming their Water-type STABs that otherwise could be punished by them. Additionally, the advent of Flip Turn for Barraskewda and U-Turn on Urshifu synergizes immaculately with Zapdos and Tornadus-T for those matchup demons readily able to switch into their Water-type STABs. The fact that most Rain abusers are able to gain momentum on possible switchins cannot be understated; it is a godsend.

The elimination of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde are especially monumental for the abusers. Zygarde's neutrality to Water-type moves and its natural bulk allowed for it to spread Glares with extreme freedom, crippling abusers. The one Glare switch-in, Zapdos, is decently checked by Zygarde due to its access to Thousand Arrows and Substitute. Kyurem-Black, as stated, was extremely hard for Rain cores to battle against due to its resistance to Water-type STABs, and the sheer difficulty of switching into its nuclear BoltBeam. In fact, Kingdra was the only abuser on Rain that was able to immediately threaten Zygarde and Kyurem-Black due to its access to Draco Meteor. The implications of these removals are incredibly obvious, as they were some of the more consistent, splashable ways of checking Rain offense. Kingdra appreciates having the pressure of this role lifted from it, especially since Draco Meteor is an exploitable move.

While I'm on the subject, I find Seismitoad to be an underrated threat on Rain currently. As an abuser, its immunity to Electric-type moves is monumental, and it is a great Stealth Rock setter that eases up pressure on Ferrothorn to set hazards, and reduces the momentum loss that comes with switching it in. Its STABs are also very helpful against Melmetal, alongside Sludge Wave to hit Clefable and Tapu Fini harder. I highly suggest giving it a try if you haven't already.

Glues



As far as glues are concerned, they are benefited, but not as much as with the setters and abusers.

Ferrothorn is a mainstay staple on nearly every Rain core thanks to how well it synergizes with Pelipper, however, having pressure eased off of it from having to simultaneously check Zygarde and Kyurem-Black lets it switch in more readily to Rain checks like Rillaboom. Ferrothorn provides a lot of neat utility as well, with access to options such as Leech Seed, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock/Spikes to ease switch-ins and provide long term pressure.

Blissey is a good check to base Kyurem that is able to invite in Fighting-type Pokemon, and gain momentum on them with Teleport. I find Blissey to be pretty cool on Rain currently for this reason, and I think it can definitely perform pretty nicely if you want a bit of Special Defense backbone to your core. Obviously, it likes both Kyurem-Black and Zygarde being gone, as the former tore through it, and the latter used it as setup fodder for Substitute and/or for a boosting opportunity.

---

All in all, I find rain to be an extremely potent form of offense right now, especially with the elimination of Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. It is a genuinely valid archetype right now, and something that you absolutely should keep an eye out for in the builder.

Thanks for reading!
 
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Hey all, I hope you're all doing well today! Today, I really want to talk about an archetype that's been rising in usage lately, and something that I've had a lot of fun experimenting with: Rain.

For those unaware, Weather Offense is a form of Hyper Offense that operates in a very unique way, utilizing weather setters to abuse Pokemon with weather-based abilities, such as Chlorophyll/Swift Swim, STABs boosted by weathers, etc.. However, it is an extremely inconsistent playstyle, primarily because it is extremely momentum focused (as per any HO playstyle), and because weathers need to be reset after a period of time, which forces a loss of momentum, and god forbid you go against another weather setter.

Though, I think with the ban of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde, Rain is looking extremely fearsome again for two reasons: the additional, synergistic options, and its optimized matchups. I want to break down each facet of rain, and explore why I think it's starting to become a much more considerable candidate for offensive archetypes in the tier.

Setters



As far as setting goes, Rain has had it pretty good compared to other setters. Pelipper is an incredible facilitator thanks to its awesome access to U-Turn, longevity in Roost, its defensive typing, and its set options. Thanks to having slow U-Turns, it's safely able to get in powerful weather abusers with relative ease, which is further accented thanks to its defensive typing and longevity. Its resistance to Fighting-type moves makes its Pheromosa matchup decent, and an outright immunity to Ground-type moves make it a pretty simple Pokemon to switch-in in many matchups, and as such it is very readily capable of resetting weather.

Politoed isn't anywhere near as good as Pelipper, but it performs decently as a backup setter. Its main niche over Pelipper is its neutrality to Rock-type moves and a resistance to Ice-type moves, letting it more readily combat opposing weather, alongside access to support moves like Encore. It's niche, but it has some merit.

What changed for the setters? The removal of Kyurem-Black, primarily, is notable. Thanks to losing a major threat that could readily press Fusion Bolt and Icicle Spear, Pelipper finds switch-ins considerably easier, and it finds even more opportunities to provide momentum for weather abusers that otherwise struggle to find switch-in opportunities. Kyurem-Black being a premier wallbreaker makes this a prominent buff for Rain teams that depend on being able to reset weather throughout the course of the game.

Abusers



Thanks to the introduction of a shiny new Zapdos with Hurricane and Weather Ball to Rain cores as well as the return of Tornadus-T, the synergy between Rain abusers is the best it's been throughout the entirety of the generation. Zapdos and Tornadus-T are able to lay out incredible pressure to Grass-types and walls like Corviknight that are willing to take on the onslaught of other abusers, and can provide momentum as well to provide ready switch-ins for wallbreakers. Zapdos, specifically, is an incredible addition for its access to STAB Thunder and Hurricane on top of boasting Weather Ball and a great defensive typing for Rain teams to exploit. Tornadus-T boasts a great speed tier and nuclear STAB Hurricanes that many Pokemon struggle to switch into, as well as having access to U-Turn to get in another weather abuser against AV Melmetal and Corviknight.

It also greatly helps that Tangrowth and Amoonguss are fairly overwhelmed in the current metagame. Although they are both smoked by the new, welcome additions to Rain cores, their decrease in usage provides Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and Barraskewda with a much easier time spamming their Water-type STABs that otherwise could be punished by them. Additionally, the advent of Flip Turn for Barraskewda and U-Turn on Urshifu synergizes immaculately with Zapdos and Tornadus-T for those matchup demons readily able to switch into their Water-type STABs. The fact that most Rain abusers are able to gain momentum on possible switchins cannot be understated; it is a godsend.

The elimination of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde are especially monumental for the abusers. Zygarde's neutrality to Water-type moves and its natural bulk allowed for it to spread Glares with extreme freedom, crippling abusers. The one Glare switch-in, Zapdos, is decently checked by Zygarde due to its access to Thousand Arrows and Substitute. Kyurem-Black, as stated, was extremely hard for Rain cores to battle against due to its resistance to Water-type STABs, and the sheer difficulty of switching into its nuclear BoltBeam. The implications of these removals are incredibly obvious, as they were some of the more consistent, splashable ways of checking Rain offense.

While I'm on the subject, I find Seismitoad to be an underrated threat on Rain currently. As an abuser, its immunity to Electric-type moves is monumental, and it is a great Stealth Rock setter that eases up pressure on Ferrothorn to set hazards, and reduces the momentum loss that comes with switching it in. Its STABs are also very helpful against Melmetal, alongside Sludge Wave to hit Clefable and Tapu Fini harder. I highly suggest giving it a try if you haven't already.

Glues



As far as glues are concerned, they are benefited, but not as much as with the setters and abusers.

Ferrothorn is a mainstay staple on nearly every Rain core thanks to how well it synergizes with Pelipper, however, having pressure eased off of it from having to simultaneously check Zygarde and Kyurem-Black lets it switch in more readily to Rain checks like Rillaboom. Ferrothorn provides a lot of neat utility as well, with access to options such as Leech Seed, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock/Spikes to ease switch-ins and provide long term pressure.

Blissey is a good check to base Kyurem that is able to invite in Fighting-type Pokemon, and gain momentum on them with Teleport. I find Blissey to be pretty cool on Rain currently for this reason, and I think it can definitely perform pretty nicely if you want a bit of Special Defense backbone to your core. Obviously, it likes both Kyurem-Black and Zygarde being gone, as the former tore through it, and the latter used it as setup fodder for Substitute and/or for a boosting opportunity.

---

All in all, I find rain to be an extremely potent form of offense right now, especially with the elimination of Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. It is a genuinely valid archetype right now, and something that you absolutely should keep an eye out for in the builder.

Thanks for reading!
Thanks for an amazing post about rain! I'll bookmark this for sure when I want to build it.

I guess if I had a personal concern, it's that on paper sure you could argue how rain beats full stall, but I haven't seen it done so in practice and I've observed more rain gettin overwhelmed by pex/bliss/clef, toxic & tspikes, & knock off spam.
 
i would just like to add that dragonite also has a lot of defensive utility; it's immune to ground, quad resist grass, and resists fighting, fire and water attacks. Multiscale also allows it to easily tank pretty much any neutral or 2x super effective move once (and even some weaker ice moves).

The set i'm currently using on a stall team:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

This set uses extreme speed to revenge kill frail setup sweepers that would otherwise threaten the more passive members of my team, since extreme speed does enough damage to KO a lot of frailer pokemon with very small amounts of chip damage, and multiscale allows it to tank some very strong hits, so it can soak a hit from a glass cannon mon and probably kill it in retaliation. Since there are no boosting moves on this set, i run adamant to reduce the amount of chip it takes for espeed to KO, and max hp evs to ensure best mixed bulk.

This set can also infinitely switch on magma storm taunt heatran that can abuse my more passive mons, and then either KO it with earthquake, or reset its multiscale with roost, depending on whether I read the heatran will stay in or switch. Resetting multiscale with roost in general is very nice when you can get away with it, as it lets you tank much mor during the course of a game.

As was said this thing has awesome coverage combined with a meaty attack stat, and can often surprise enemies who don't guess what coverage is packing. It actually surprised me how often, with a little chip situations arose where dragonite for example espeed kills an enemy pheromosa, then they send out a steel type which dies to earthquake, and they try to send in something like lando-t that folds to ice punch, and I have seen this set straight sweep like 5 pokemon on a decently chipped team. Also this combination of moves enables to, with some prediction, even break through zapdos; you can chunk it with ice punch, predict a roost with earthquake which brings it into eSpeed range if it was not in very good health after the roost (of course this works much better if the opponent doesn't know what exact moves you are running).

What I've found that dragonite struggles against anything that can preemptively break it's multiscale, like knock off it's boots or weathers that deal damage, but the worst things are poison and burn, especially burn as it massively reduces both it's damage and survivability. Because of that, pokemon which can heal bell are really good partners. This specific set also like to have a partner that can deal with spectrier, as it can't be revenge killed by eSpeed.

tldr; dnite nice, can take hits well and give out hits, also this is my first post, so sorry if i wrote a bunch of bogus.
Yep, agreed! Multiscale is a nice defensive ability, and with defensive sets that only requires roost (no Dragon Dance necessary) this thing can pack some mean coverage. I run offensive DD sets with Heal Bell Blissey and I can see that combination fitting even better on stall because... it's Blissey... in stall.

The thing with Magma Storm Taunt Heatran, though, is that if Magma Storm hits it breaks Multiscale every turn it's active and prevents Dragonite from switching out, which leaves the opponent free to send something like Latios with Multiscale down. So it's not to advisable to switch Dragonite into that particular Heatran. Lava Plume varients are food, though (unless Lava Plume scores a burn, but that's why we have Heal Bell Blissey, isn't it?).

Overall, nice first post! Much better than my first post lol. Welcome to Smogon! (though Finchinator should be one that's saying this :mehowth:)

By the way, nice posts from Ausma and SeveroM about rain and Barra respectively. Much more detailed than the one I did yesterday lol. Rain is fun!
 
Yep, agreed! Multiscale is a nice defensive ability, and with defensive sets that only requires roost (no Dragon Dance necessary) this thing can pack some mean coverage. I run offensive DD sets with Heal Bell Blissey and I can see that combination fitting even better on stall because... it's Blissey... in stall.

The thing with Magma Storm Taunt Heatran, though, is that if Magma Storm hits it breaks Multiscale every turn it's active and prevents Dragonite from switching out, which leaves the opponent free to send something like Latios with Multiscale down. So it's not to advisable to switch Dragonite into that particular Heatran. Lava Plume varients are food, though (unless Lava Plume scores a burn, but that's why we have Heal Bell Blissey, isn't it?).

Overall, nice first post! Much better than my first post lol. Welcome to Smogon! (though Finchinator should be one that's saying this :mehowth:)

By the way, nice posts from Ausma and SeveroM about rain and Barra respectively. Much more detailed than the one I did yesterday lol. Rain is fun!
thanks :D

I would just like to offer a counterpoint to the heatran point, magma storm is only active while tran is in, and tran absolutely can't stay in on an eq nite, so if you can predict whether the switch will happen or not you can either end with a dead tran on their team, or your multiscale intact (this does lose you some tempo, but it's better than tran trapping your blissey, and on stall you can sometimes afford to lose tempo). also, the beauty of nite is that things that can hurt it usually can't switch into it lightly (depending on the set of course), so if they bring latias from the example in and I predict that I can go for an ice punch into eSpeed, which will KO it before it can do anything. In general i'd say that there aren't a lot of mon that can switch in safely, and also bring a lot of tempo to the opponent (clefable or ferro can switch in safely but they dont immediately turn the tempo game around). I actually find lava plume to be worse to switch in, because I can't overstate how much burn sucks, but I also play this set on a team with blissey so I don't need to switch dnite into lava plume tran cuz she handles that easy peasy.

Of course, this might not be foolproof and depends on the predictions, but I just wanted to explain my rationale here, not to sound argumentative, so sorry if I come off too defensive :D.

EDIT: just did the calc and realised that i don't even really need to predict ice punch if i roost to restore multiscale

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-375 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (modest has 43% chance to ohko)

so i can just ice punch after latios and then espeed (dam that dnite chonky tho). Of course i dont mean it will always be latios, just want to show how bulky dnite with max hp invest and multiscale is
 
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1605810891884.png


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Protective Pads
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch

I am excited to see some real viability for this item in Gen 8 (Blaziken can run it too). I think Urshifu Rapid can most viably run it on rain, but it can work on other builds as well. There's not a ton of Tangrowth or Amoongus running around so you can get away with this coverage. There's an insane amount of rocky helmet and rough skin/iron barbs floating around so you are sure to proc the pads at least once a game. Is this set beating Buzzwole? Nah but there's lots of ferro pex cores you can annoy with this set. You're also ignoring flame body and static which is awesome. You have 24 chances to paralyze Pex so it is possible to 1v1 it. Here's an okay replay demonstrating how often my Urshifu would have died if not for this item - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227131611-4x8nomkk1i247rs8bdcywa5c9uvho55pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227799731-kijou690gti77ckw87yymk0083q05vupw - six hits on a static zapdos no probelm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227846309-da0obgq5kdc8tqn603ne6xnjb6k11wepw
 
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Perish Song

Rampage
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:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
 
View attachment 292709

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Protective Pads
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch

I am excited to see some real viability for this item in Gen 8 (Blaziken can run it too). I think Urshifu Rapid can most viably run it on rain, but it can work on other builds as well. There's not a ton of Tangrowth or Amoongus running around so you can get away with this coverage. There's an insane amount of rocky helmet and rough skin/iron barbs floating around so you are sure to proc the pads at least once a game. Is this set beating Buzzwole? Nah but there's lots of ferro pex cores you can annoy with this set. You have 24 chances to paralyze Pex so it is possible to 1v1 it. Here's an okay replay demonstrating how often my Urshifu would have died if not for this item - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227131611-4x8nomkk1i247rs8bdcywa5c9uvho55pw
What's the point of this set? Protective Pads help you stay alive versus walls with Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs, but as you can obviously see in this replay you are unable to break through anything. Even an adamant Thunder Punch doesn't break 40% on Pex. It seems like this set just sits there passively as opposing mons Wishpass and set up entry hazards. Protective Pads prevent you from taking chip from walls but in return they just sit on you until their or your PP runs out. At least with Blaziken, Emvee showcased how you can use it to get some gimmicky reversal wins.
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:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
Horse isn’t broken but it’s definitely unhealthy. Too fast and too strong with a snowball ability means that if you don’t want your team to get swept late game the second your fat mon gets burned or chipped you need to run a handful of checks. I think it clearly takes more than it gives to the tier in terms of team building by suppressing use of other offensive ghosts and necessitating use of stuff like mandibuzz or tar to not get swept. Banning it would instantly open up building both offensively and defensively.

What's the point of this set? Protective Pads help you stay alive versus walls with Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs, but as you can obviously see in this replay you are unable to break through anything. Even an adamant Thunder Punch doesn't break 40% on Pex. It seems like this set just sits there passively as opposing mons Wishpass and set up entry hazards. Protective Pads prevent you from taking chip from walls but in return they just sit on you until their or your PP runs out. At least with Blaziken, Emvee showcased how you can use it to get some gimmicky reversal wins.
the thing is even with band you need to make god tier reads and even if you banded tpunch Pex they are just gonna go to ferro next turn. The Pex had helmet, the ferro did too. if you want to use the Urshifu before the endgame without risking suicide, pads is the answer. I would argue this set made more progress more easily than band would have in my linked game.
 
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:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
this thing is clearly unhealthy for the tier and can actually power through dark types and normals depending on the set. it has nasty plot, a snow balling sky high spa, and very high speed so all you really need to do is weaken the shit that can take 2 shadow balls and ur good to go. the games with this mon pretty much rely entirely over not being swept by shadow ball. to the point that even if ur down 6-2, you can still win the game because of how broken this thing is. any type of snowballing effect on the special side of things is going to be a bit ridiculous, which is shown here because it really only runs shadow ball and can finesse past other moves. like on one game I got disabled by this little shit with my normal type, and It legit just nasty plotted to x4 and hit me with mud shot. fucking MUD SHOT. and it koed. this is the type of shit I’m talking about. evne shit like mandibuzz isnt remotely safe because it can burn you, disable/nasty plot/hex on you, and just wear you down because shadow ball has a chance of lowering spdef - which it will.

And as far as teambuilding restriction goes, you have to keep this shit in mind or your team will just get swept by it with little to no effort. especially since teams with this horse girl bullshit are built around killing the dark and normals with urshifu (another broken) most of the time and getting this to wear down the team as much as possible. We need to get this shit out of here ASAP.
 
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bb skarm

this love dont feel how it felt when we started
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I still have yet to decide on if I think Spectrier is broken or unhealthy in this metagame. I do know, however, it seems to behave like any other top-tier Pokemon that has eventually gotten banned, mainly in that it has potential to break a game open, has checks that are rarer or too team constraining, and the metagame is adapting to its existence. At the moment, it seems that Spectrier is a Pokemon that if you do not have any sort of check/counter AND contingency plan for it once it gets to +1, it will roll your team over. It, very faintly, has some shades of Blaziken in prior generations when it was banworthy. It's definitely easy to see why this thing is still on the ban ladder, it has a huge snowball effect once it gets going and its speed tier is ridiculous. So yeah, I get it, this thing seems bannable at the moment. If it were banned, I'd understand completely and I'd be glad it's one less thing to gameplan for.

That being said, I think the metagame is currently in the process of adapting to Spectrier as I had said before, and honestly, this can be kind of healthy for a metagame. We're seeing new, not necessarily team constraining like I said earlier, mons pop up in the metagame and that's just kind of a way a metagame evolves. Even mons like Obstagoon as an offensive check are starting to pop up here and there. I really think we have to give the tier and just overall meta more time to respond to its presence. We were too busy dealing with some other ridiculously broken mons to really worry about Spectrier. Now that there aren't S++ rank mons rolling around we can really better assess what impact Spectrier truly has on the metagame.

Overall, my honest opinion at the current moment is that Spectrier doesn't really have much on the metagame as a whole in comparison to other broke mons. I think that's something we have to keep in the back of our minds. I mean, seriously, we just got through four gamebreaking mons (I mean come on, Landorus was probably one of the most unmanageable mons I've ever played a metagame with, and I played with prime Mega Kangaskhan) and Spectrier really just doesn't have that "you lose!" instantly factor to it just by seeing it in team preview, even with its ridiculous snowball capabiltiies. It definitely does share somewhat the ability of a broken mon to break through its checks and counters with WoW or sub-disable or some combo of that, but at the end of the day it still can be checked and countered due to its poor coverage and frail physical bulk. I feel like, with any S rank mon, it's one you will have to gameplan for, but nothing overcentralizing. Dark-types, most of the time, handle it pretty soundly, and we really just haven't given the metagame a chance to truly figure this thing out.

The new Pokemon effect is playing a huge factor here. The metagame is as fresh as ever and we really need to wait it out and see what the consensus is and if it's truly 6-0ing teams and getting around its checks and counters with ease, then we should visit banning it. But as of now, I do think it's a bit premature to want to ban this thing as we've barely given the metagame and opportunity to respond. Snowball effect mons are always a touchy subject. In UU Gyarados got banned because with Moxie it would just steamroll teams. When it was reintroduced just a few weeks back the ban-train was rolling at full speed, but once things settled down a ton (albeit with less broken Pokemon like OU had running around), it became pretty clear it was just a very good sweeper.

I think our best bet right now is to sit back and watch what Spectrier does to the metagame now that we have these two supremely broken mons out of here. It could totally prove to be something unmanageable and unacceptable in the metagame, but for now I really think just watching the meta evolve to its most common sets is the best way to handle things.
 
Hola mis amigos, today I would like to touch on an idea that I have been subscribing more and more to by the day: Slowbro is broken and deserves a suspect test.

This isn't exactly a common thought from what I've seen, but I do firmly believe that Slowbro is a ridiculous Pokemon and should be suspect tested. The combination of Regenerator + Future Sight + Teleport is ridiculously potent and is essentially what puts a wide variety of wallbreakers over the edge.

There's a lot of examples of such wallbreakers; think of Cinderace, Choice Specs Magearna, Choice Band Pheromosa, Choice Band Melmetal, Choice Band Zygarde, and Urshifu. A lot of these are generally perceived as broken wallbreakers, but I believe that they're fine individually and that it's actually the support Slowbro provides that makes them so difficult to deal with. Ofcourse, you can definitely still argue for some of these like Zygarde and Magearna to be broken based on other qualities, but not these specific sets.

Generally, these Pokemon do not lack effective checks. Cinderace can be handled by Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Toxapex, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Choice Specs Magearna can be checked by Toxapex, Amoonguss, Heatran, and Excadrill. Choice Band Pheromosa is checked by Toxapex, Moltres, Buzzwole, and Clefable just fine. I think you get the point; what I'm trying to say is that these Pokemon all have checks readily available, though ofcourse their proficiency may vary based on move choices, like Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot on Cinderace.

It's when you start factoring in an ensuing Future Sight that Pokemon like the ones I mentioned start becoming seriously difficult to deal with. Future Sight provides just that little extra push to allow these wallbreakers to overwhelm their checks; a Toxapex switching into Pheromosa now has to deal with taking a Future Sight, a Clefable switching into Urshifu-S is now 2HKOed by Wicked Blow / Close Combat, a Buzzwole switching into Zygarde suddenly can't switch in because of Future Sight. You get the point. I believe that it's pretty clear that Slowbro is the enabler of many wallbreakers and ultimately what makes them so ridiculously hard to deal with. Getting rid of it would allow us to maintain many more Pokemon in the metagame than otherwise; there's no doubt in my mind that some of these wallbreakers I've mentioned will be banned over time were we to keep Slowbro around.

Now that I've contextualized why I believe that Slowbro is a problem, you're probably wondering 3 things: "Why not Teleport?," "Why not Future Sight?," "Why is Slowking not broken?."

I can give you an easy answer to the third question; everything I've pointed out about Slowbro is also applicable to Slowking and I think you can very well make the argument that it is also broken as a result. However, I didn't want to make this such an exhaustive read so I decided to focus on Slowbro because the defensive niche that it fills is more relevant in this metagame.

The answer to the remaining 2 questions is honestly pretty simple too. Neither move is an issue on its own so it is incredibly hard to argue for either of them to be banned instead. Ask yourself these questions: "is Teleport Mew broken?," "is Teleport Clefable broken?," "is Future Sight Tapu Lele broken?," "is Future Sight Latios broken?". The answer to any of these questions is obviously no, they are not broken. I think that this effectively proves that the whole package of Slowbro is the issue; Regenerator + Teleport + Future Sight is simply too strong, especially when the Pokemon in question is so easy to fit into teams because of how important of a defensive niche it fills.
 

Katy

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I wanna give my view on :spectrier: as well, since the discussion popped up around it.​

In my Point of View it seems on paper that Spectrier is broken currently and I wholeheartedly agree, it looks broken on paper with factoring in that counterplay is limited. The thing is, with that amazing SpA and incredible Speed it is a mon which have to be considered heavily in Teambuilding, especially with its special Moxie ability called Grim neigh, which gives it a +1 once it kills a Pokemon.

Spectrier is a very interesting case in this aspect because it has a very poor Movepool to chose from and it is very fragile, but with the limited counterplay it seems to be broken on paper.

Its Set is mostly limited to Shadow Ball, Hex, Will-O-Wisp, and Mud Shot, but with new Sets popping up like Choice Scarf to prevent the few faster Pokemon to revengekill it, unless its Barraskewda under rain or faster Scarfers (Dragapult, Zeraora (which isn't even that great atm), and Pheromosa)
its incredible threatening in the current metagame.

The potential Sets of Spectrier do not only stop at Choice Scarf or the common Choice Specs, but it can also use a Sub + Disable-Set to gain advantage of other Pokemon it faces, like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, while not being that common right now Corviknight, as well as it is able to punish different choice-locked Pokemon with using them as its Set-up fodder.

Spectrier @ Choice Specs
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mud Shot

Spectrier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mud Shot

Spectrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball

Spectrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
- Hex

Now up to the counterplay we have for Spectrier in the tier currently:
:Dragapult: Is faster than Set 1, 3, and Set 4, however it can still lose to Scarf Spectrier if Dragapult itself isn't scarfed.
:Hydreigon: not that common but pops up recently in a bit of a bulkier variant to deal with Spectrier.
:Tyranitar: specially defensive Rest-sets can deal with Spectrier pretty well.
:mandibuzz: Can deal with Spectrier pretty well as it has longterm longevity with Roost.​

As I see it, the counterplay seems to be limited currently, but we just got recently the Landorus-I ban and yesterday the ban of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde-50%. I would still wait how the metagame settles and if more counterplay is able to pop up in the future. For now I would keep Spectrier under close eyes and along with it Pheromosa and also Melmetal, to see how they will fit in a metagame without Kyurem-Black and Zygarde-50%.

Thanks for reading​
 
I am 100% down to discuss Bro but there should also be some acknowledgement that FuturePort is also the best single way to make consistent progress against toxapex/regenerator teams. I am not implying that Pex is broken without futureport in the meta, but I think it's a notable buff to regenerator cores should you not be able to pin things like you currently can with Futureport.
 
I would like to touch on an idea that I have been subscribing more and more to by the day: Slowbro is broken and deserves a suspect test.
Apologies for the short post, I'm about to head out to a birthday lunch. However I just want to weigh in and say that I agree with your post & position on Slowbro + Future Sight + Breaker.

I've been trying out a lot of fat mons in the meta, and quite frankly, it is very difficult bordering on impossible to actually play around this combination. Pokemon that could be adequately handled by the likes of buzzwole or toxapex get absolutely trashed, meaning you have to either consider not using them in the teambuilder, or trying to tank the future sight with another pokemon that cannot handle the breaker itself.

I know that some people might think this is a good thing as it forces progress and I am not wholly adverse to this line reasoning. I would like to see some discussion on the topic though.

I won't proffer any thoughts about future sight vs offence, as I honestly haven't been playing any offence on the ladder.

I was thinking about writing something about this earlier, but it seemed so unorthodox and no one else had brought it up, so I didn't want to seem like a salty fat user or noob lol - so thank you for bringing it up Jordy.
 
:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
I really hate it, but I don't think that it is broken. In my eyes, it restricts teambuilding a bit. I think the reason is that most Dark or Normal have no reliable recovery or can't handle status or boosting sets.

In my opinion, the by far best checks:
:bw/mandibuzz: :bw/blissey:

Mandibuzz has a resistence to Ghost and Dark and hovers above Mud Shot (I know its weak, but it hits Heatran and provides Speed control) and has reliable recovery in roost. I always run 64 Sp. Def. in order to always live two Choice Specs Hexes after burn damage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

However, Spectrier has still has potential to beat Mandibuzz. Burning on the switch and then setting-up a Nasty Plot can defeat Mandibuzz while it doesn't do that much damage. Spectrier doesn't need to stay in. It can burn Mandibuzz, switch-out, come back later and use Nasty Plot when Mandibuzz switches in. I know it sounds like a best case scenario, but people will switch-in Mandibuzz and don't sac any other mon.

0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 111-132 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Mandibuzz: 225-264 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Blissey is the best checks, immune to its Ghost STAB and able to cure burns. Dark Pulse doesn't do anything even at +6 (if Spectrier has Leftovers instead of Life Orb), while Blissey can either cripple it with status, provide momentum with Teleport, heal up if it got low earlier in the match or 1v1 Spectrier with Shadow Ball. Chansey it also a good choice, Shadow Ball isn't a very good option, since Chansey has horrendous Sp. Atk., but it tanks Spectriers hits better.

+6 252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 290-342 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 240-283 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 110-130 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Chansey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 64-76 (18.7 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery


Other checks:
:bw/tyranitar:
1605820987720.png
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1605821154412.png
:bw/hydreigon:

Those are really good checks, but they all, expect for two, don't have reliable recovery outside of Rest. Tyranitar has the best odds to tank hits, due to its similiar stats to Mandibuzz and Sandstream, which gives it a free +1 Sp. Def. boost. However its crippled by burn, especially since its a physical attacker, and it can't heal itself outside of Rest and Leftovers.
Zarude can heal off burns and its HP by 25%, however it can't tank hits that well. It has similiar bulk to Mandibuzz again, but it invests in its offenses and there can't invest much in bulk.
Goltres and switch-in and set-up in its face, but it will most likely also have an offensive spread and its crippled by burn again and can only heal with Rest.
Incineroar is immune to Will-O-Wisp, but gets hit by Mud Shot super effectively.
Obstagoon is immune to Ghost and makes use of the burn, but it's slower than something like Urshifu and doesn't have great longevity.
Speaking of Urshifu, it can switch-in on every thing aside from Will-O-Wisp and it can revenge kill it, but I don't really now if its that great, because imo it's a bit to much crippled by burn.
Hydreigon might be 3rd best check. It has Roost, Defog and a Ground immunity just like Mandibuzz, but it also has enough power to deal with Spectrier.

0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 398-470 (116.7 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk burned Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude: 179-211 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 296-350 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 142-168 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 356-420 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Incineroar: 158-188 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 612-722 (179.4 - 211.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Obstagoon: 116-137 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 888-1046 (260.4 - 306.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band burned Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 444-523 (130.2 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 261-307 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

32 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 176 HP / 45 SpD Hydreigon: 179-211 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Those mons are still great checks, but imo they aren't as consistent as Mandibuzz and Blissey.

TL;DR
In my opinion Spectrier isn't overpowered, but it is somehow restricting. The first I add are either Mandibuzz or Blissey or an other checks mentioned above. It lacks consistent checks that can't be defeat as easily. Except for Blissey, because this thing is Spectiers nightmare.
 

AM

GMT-4
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The issue with Slowbro would be Teleport itself, because Future Sight is not a new concept but is amplified by the current mechanic of Teleport. Contrary to the idea that other users of it are not unhealthy or broken is debatable because Teleport Chan,Bliss,Clef passing off wishes with little to no opportunity cost to the teleport user creates scenarios where the teleport using player has moved all momentum to their side. There is almost no thought process to utilizing Teleport on any of the mons which can viably use them seeing as most of them are there to sponge and get out. And if you're lucky enough to face Tele cores with these mons you can forget even trying to control the matchup. A mon coming in for free is what "breaks" Teleport imo because other momentum switch in moves can come with different opportunity costs based on a scenario in play (Rocky Helm chip U-turning something for example). With Teleport you're practically given a Get out of Jail card.

I would look at Teleport before I look at Slowbro as far as this discussion goes because Slowbro is actually a good mon to keep a lot of the physicality of the tier in check especially now. Most of Slowbro's constraint with the Teleport set beyond just taking total control and momentum away from the opposing player is the fact the tier is filled with a lot of dangerous receivers right now. As far as defensive mons go I would put this below something like Toxapex who serves a different function but its ability to throw out Toxic Spikes, Knock Off items off defoggers with Heavy Duty Boots and the the lame PP stalling games it's able to accomplish in combination with Regen among just Scald and Toxic I think is more unhealthy than Teleport personally.

But this is all low priority stuff it seems as more unhealthy than just broken, because there's some more dangerous things right now.
 

ausma

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Hola mis amigos, today I would like to touch on an idea that I have been subscribing more and more to by the day: Slowbro is broken and deserves a suspect test.

This isn't exactly a common thought from what I've seen, but I do firmly believe that Slowbro is a ridiculous Pokemon and should be suspect tested. The combination of Regenerator + Future Sight + Teleport is ridiculously potent and is essentially what puts a wide variety of wallbreakers over the edge.

There's a lot of examples of such wallbreakers; think of Cinderace, Choice Specs Magearna, Choice Band Pheromosa, Choice Band Melmetal, Choice Band Zygarde, and Urshifu. A lot of these are generally perceived as broken wallbreakers, but I believe that they're fine individually and that it's actually the support Slowbro provides that makes them so difficult to deal with. Ofcourse, you can definitely still argue for some of these like Zygarde and Magearna to be broken based on other qualities, but not these specific sets.

Generally, these Pokemon do not lack effective checks. Cinderace can be handled by Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Toxapex, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Choice Specs Magearna can be checked by Toxapex, Amoonguss, Heatran, and Excadrill. Choice Band Pheromosa is checked by Toxapex, Moltres, Buzzwole, and Clefable just fine. I think you get the point; what I'm trying to say is that these Pokemon all have checks readily available, though ofcourse their proficiency may vary based on move choices, like Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot on Cinderace.

It's when you start factoring in an ensuing Future Sight that Pokemon like the ones I mentioned start becoming seriously difficult to deal with. Future Sight provides just that little extra push to allow these wallbreakers to overwhelm their checks; a Toxapex switching into Pheromosa now has to deal with taking a Future Sight, a Clefable switching into Urshifu-S is now 2HKOed by Wicked Blow / Close Combat, a Buzzwole switching into Zygarde suddenly can't switch in because of Future Sight. You get the point. I believe that it's pretty clear that Slowbro is the enabler of many wallbreakers and ultimately what makes them so ridiculously hard to deal with. Getting rid of it would allow us to maintain many more Pokemon in the metagame than otherwise; there's no doubt in my mind that some of these wallbreakers I've mentioned will be banned over time were we to keep Slowbro around.

Now that I've contextualized why I believe that Slowbro is a problem, you're probably wondering 3 things: "Why not Teleport?," "Why not Future Sight?," "Why is Slowking not broken?."

I can give you an easy answer to the third question; everything I've pointed out about Slowbro is also applicable to Slowking and I think you can very well make the argument that it is also broken as a result. However, I didn't want to make this such an exhaustive read so I decided to focus on Slowbro because the defensive niche that it fills is more relevant in this metagame.

The answer to the remaining 2 questions is honestly pretty simple too. Neither move is an issue on its own so it is incredibly hard to argue for either of them to be banned instead. Ask yourself these questions: "is Teleport Mew broken?," "is Teleport Clefable broken?," "is Future Sight Tapu Lele broken?," "is Future Sight Latios broken?". The answer to any of these questions is obviously no, they are not broken. I think that this effectively proves that the whole package of Slowbro is the issue; Regenerator + Teleport + Future Sight is simply too strong, especially when the Pokemon in question is so easy to fit into teams because of how important of a defensive niche it fills.
I really want to emphasize the sentiment of this post, because I think Jordy is completely right here.

I would like to express my agreement that no wallbreaker in particular is really broken on its own merits. There are a ton of really good, natural ways to check a good lot of the wallbreakers in the metagame rather naturally. For example, Melmetal has a wealth of switch-ins that compress a lot of roles in the metagame, giving builders a lot of room to flexibly prepare for threats while not putting themselves on a leash; you have Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Rotom-H, Moltres, and Zapdos as example checks, and there are other creative ways to handle it as well. Each of these Pokemon provide unique utility to teams. The same can be said about Pheromosa and other prominent wallbreakers like Urshifu-SS; I never find myself troubled to find a way to check these Pokemon in battle and in the builder when they are by themselves.

However, this sentiment changes with the support of Future Sight. Future Sight creates a very dangerous checkmate scenario for the opponent due to the phenomenal synergy of Future Sight between premier wallbreakers, where the opponent can switch in their check and get blasted into 2hko range by Future Sight, or can stay in and lose their Pokemon to the wallbreaker in question. While I find this to be normally balanced since it requires smart set up and doubling, Regenerator + Teleport mitigates this greatly. The Slowbro user in question is not required to sack momentum to stay healthy (and can usually stay healthy due to its solid defensive typing and natural bulk) and can freely spam Future Sight throughout the course of the match with little to no consequence, while perfectly positioning to force the checkmate scenario. The fact it can consistently do this throughout the course of the match is cause for concern, and elevates the breaking potential of many offensive threats in the tier to a point where it is extremely difficult to manage.

This is 100% not the case for Future Sight or Teleport in of themselves, because we would have seen an uptick of this with other Pokemon; it is easily the combination of these moves in tandem with Regenerator to keep the enabler healthy that is extremely problematic. I entirely agree with the sentiment here and I definitely think Futureport from Slowbro/Slowking is worth keeping on the radar, even if it's not overtly broken.

:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
Many people have phenomenally summed up my thoughts on Spectrier, so I'll avoid repeating what's already been said in a much more consise, meaningful sense.

I agree that Spectrier is definitely worth keeping an eye on, but while I don't see it as a top threat, I do see it as something to keep in the back of our minds. I think its ability to snowball unprepared teams is extremely worrisome, especially since its speed tier with a Choice Scarf is neigh (lol) unparalleled, and its Choice Specs set is extremely hard to switch into consistently throughout the course of the match. I've found that usually to make my teams remain whole without letting myself auto-lose to Spectrier, I almost always need Mandibuzz or Blissey if I want to maintain role compression on my team.

Though, given we have just banned two meta-defining threats, I think Spectrier definitely needs some time and the metagame needs to adapt to an eased teambuilder before we can go any further with it.
 
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