Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #2753)

Opinions on some of my favorite (and least favorite) shit to use.
Good shit
:ss/dragapult:
Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 8 HP / 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Hasty/Naive Nature
- Hex
- U-turn/Shadow Ball
- Dragon Darts
- Thunder Wave/Wisp
Outspeeds Modest Mosa and garuntees a 3hko on Bliss. If -Spdef nature, 8 HP garuntees you will always live a cinderace sucker punch from full. Otherwise, just dump the 8 hp in Atk. Or keep it there, its pretty miniscule. Thunder is an option over Status for if you're confident to connect them and want to dominate Tapu Fini while still spreading status. Would not recommend unless you're a several time lottery ticket winner, or using Rain Pult for..some reason.
This should not surprise literally any person ever but Dragapult is still amazing. It excels in pretty much every offensive matchup and maintains great activity vs fat teams due to its spammable stab and proficiency in spreading status. This is still a top 10 mon, you can slap this on a huge amount of teams and have it work, between Specs, Hex, and the admittedly semi niche DD (the rise of non Fplay Mandi helps it a little). This mon isn't any worse, give it a shot and put down HDB Mosa for a bit, the defensive utility and a downright busted stab is well worth the barely noticeable speed loss and more noticable moveslot issues.
:ss/Amoonguss:
Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet/Black Sludge/HDB
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Foul Play/Stomping Tantrum/Stun Spore
Zneon get to Amoong before I could muster up the give a damn to write a decently lengthy post again so I won't talk about this for too long, but one thing really worth keeping in mind with this mon is that its the ONLY Specs Magearna switchin that doesn't take so much from Volt Switch that it can't consistently regen it off, which is a really big deal, not to mention it blanks Specs Mage lacking Flash Cannon entirely, though Fluer does do about 49% because Magearna is a balanced pokemon, so be wary about letting it drop too low.
:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn/Aerial Ace
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Wanna hit Buzzwole or Slowbro? Up to u gamer.
Walls do not exist here, only Stone Edge misses.
Ok but seriously, this benefits a lot from Moltres and Zapdos being, well, a thing, and functions as a pretty damn solid Balance breaker, getting plenty of oppurtunities off of Heatran, Urshifu, and just general pivoting. Also Future Sight but you could pair a brick with Future Sight and it would be unwallable so lul. Anyways, Its stabs are stupid spammable and this metagame is alot more kind to it than the prediction hell that was beating Clef+Corv+Pex with 8 Stone Edges. Give it a shot if you're tired of Urshifu and want something with a bit more speed and surprise factor to it, fun mon.

Good shit but I Don't Really Have as Much to Say
:ss/latios:
All its sets are amazing man lol
Busted mon with solid defensive utility, if i can fit this on a team its an invaluable member both offensively and defensively. Specs w/ Stabs Mystical Trick and Life Orb Roost both put in tons of work consistently and are a pain to switch into, while being reasonably quick compared to wallbreakers of its caliber, which you usually find around the base 90 speed tier.
:ss/garchomp:
Same deal as Latios
This mon is infinitely useful in pretty much every MU, like it's a garchomp, if you weren't expecting greatness you're crazy. SD, Tankchomp and CB (mostly a cheesy set I won't lie lol) combine make up a pretty splashable and consistent mon. Top 15 mon at least, Its just really not a mon you should need explained much lol.
:ss/aegislash:
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 236 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Mild Nature
- Substitute/King's Shield
- Close Combat
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
there's probably a more optimized spread but w/e lol
Blanks pretty much every Mosa (Throat Chop is practically non existent) and dominates teams who use Ttar/Blissey as their Ghost resist (Spoiler: A whole lot of them RN). Abuse your broken typing to get an entry point and sit there spamming Shadow Ball behind a Sub/with the safety of King's Shield to scout.
:ss/hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 56 SpA / 100 SpD / 88 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
It's like a Mandibuzz but its weak to bug in exchange for holding Lefties and hard checking Heatran, while dealing with Spectrier a bit better. It isn't an Excadrill switchin so that can cause some weird problems while trying to build around it. V useful on sun and a neat fat team pick.
:ss/melmetal:
Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 196 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
Local massive steel boy has no switchins besides Corviknight, more at 8.
Good set, give it a try if you're tired of CB's prediction heavy nature and AV's hatred of Recover spam.
:ss/kartana:
Kartana @ Protective Pads
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Sacred Sword
It's a good breaker and Protective Pads let you Knock Zappy+Molt risk free to break past later on in the game with zero risk. Definitely a great, consistent breaker with solid defensive use in checking SD Rilla, Urshi-Rapid, Kartana, etc. Use the paper cut, its a cool mon.

Dissapointing
:ss/victini:
HDB mixed sets are cool I guess but CB is ultra prediction reliant and Cinderace exists as a much more sustainable, speedy, and versatile Fire that has more power behind its non Fire moves.
:ss/blacephalon:
Specs is very mediocre and suffers from not having multiple choice items to trick VS fat and Scarf is ok but there's other forms of speed control that don't require as much support as this one. SubCM is just blatantly terrible and Spectrier does what that set wants to do better while remaining more useful VS. Balancey builds.
:ss/hawlucha:
It's absolutely worthless vs. Fat and HO has a lot more options to handle it nowadays. Next to no setup opportunities and a lot of Mosa/Urshi prep overlaps with this.

I'm not gonna touch on the easy like bait bannables because honestly its just really boring and I wanted to talk about mons I cared enough about while using to form an opinion on them.
Just info: the 8 HP EVs on Pult should go 100% to defense. Not even a question. Did you know that 8 defense EVs on Pult make sure that Pult will always live an adamant Cinderace Sucker Punch from full. That's why I always use 248 spatk on my pults. Little known fact but very useful.
 

Perish Song

Rampage
is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Haven't made a post in a while, and had good responses and discussion on the last one I did, so why not? Let's talk about something else today. :blobwizard:


:tyranitar: :excadrill:
(click for import)

I've always been a big sucker of sand ever since SM's Mega Tyranitar + Exca teams, a simple yet effective core that can fulfill a plethora of roles single-handedly, therefore, is a good core to utilize in SS OU. This core simply achieves so many things on its own. First, the core provides you both a defensive and an offensive counterplay against Spectrier. Tyranitar doesn't mind too much Spectrier thanks to Rest, having an option to nullify Will-o is so great. The sandstorm does two things, one being boosting Tyranitar's Sp. Def even higher while the other is nullifying the Leftovers recovery. Even when Tyranitar is burnt it is a slightly favorable roll to break Substitute of Spectrier with 3 Hits coming from Rock Blast. As for Excadrill, it can outspeed Scarf Spectrier under Sandstorm, how cool is that! Moving on, this core covers much-needed hazards. Tyranitar provides Stealth Rock while Excadrill removes entry hazards. Rapid Spin boosting Speed also occasionally allows Excadrill to be threatening without the assistance of Sandstorm.

Teammates like Clefable, Tangrowth, and Slowbro/Slowking make excellent partners for the core. Carrying Knock Off and Thunder Wave, Clefable can cripple about anything and create more openings for Excadrill, while uncommon Heal Bell can be used to cure the sleep of Tyranitar. Moreover having Magic Guard as its ability allows Clefable to absorb status for the two as well. In terms of utility, Tangrowth shares a similar goal, spreading sleep and removing items with Knock Off. It's typing also patches the core's biggest two weaknesses by covering Water- and Ground-types. It is ridiculously bulky physically, so can make good use of Rocky Helmet against foes like Band Melmetal and Band Urshifu and punish U-turn users like Landorus-T, while Regenerator only compliments its physical bulk by allowing it to regain lost HP without risk. Slowbro works well as an addition to the two Pokemon as well, along with the core. They prevent Cinderace from 6-0ing you, and risk-free pivoting with Teleport against fat stuff is extremely helpful to Excadrill. Future Sight forces in undesired switches and causes unwanted 50-50s for your opponent, and they make good Regenerator cores with Tangrowth.
 
It is laughable to compare Regieleki to Spectrier, when it:

1) Has a significantly worse stab, as there’s plenty of good ground types;
2) Has even worse defenses and no substitute, making priority a bigger issue for it;
3) Has no utility outside of screens, explosion, and rapid spin, and sets with those aren’t really sweeping sets;
4) Doesn’t have an ability that boosts its special attack after every KO; and
5) Has no way to break past the things that beat it (outside of... choice band assurance after they switch into hazards while you get a critical hit? Or explosion, but then you’re out for the count too)

Regieleki has a niche as a fast screens setter that can either boom or deal good damage with transistor electric moves, and choice sets are workable if you build teams around them, but the two aren’t really all that comparable.

Spectrier absolutely deserves to be looked at once things settle though, it’s annoying as hell and probably over centralizing
I think what they do have in common is they're matchup reliant. A well prepared team will keep either from accomplishing much of anything, though a team weak to either is in for a rough time. I'd contrast this with something like Volcarona which is a good Pokemon but can be played around in many cases without specific attention in the team builder. I think what makes Spectrier a bigger problem though is that it can only be prepared for with a much smaller pool of choices than Regieleki. I think Regieleki would only be a problem down the road if the strategies it enables demands a much smaller set of countermeasures.
 
I'd say that when it comes to spectrier people are getting too focused on the fact that spectrier can beat any of its' counters and forget that to beat its' counters spectrier needs to sacrifice the ability to fight other counters or forms of counterplay. for example, to counter blissey, it absolutely needs CM, disable and a non ghost attacking move.Thats 3 moves that it's not running because it wants to(if it could get away with it, it would prefer nasty plot to CM, coverage to disable and not to be forced to forgo either a STAB attack or substitute), and it heavily reduces its' general power. Also, people forget that you can counterplay it as a team. Take for example that set that counters blissey. Does it still counter it if toxic spikes are up? hell no it dies before being able to CM. This is where you would say "but then you need 2 pokemon to take care of one"; but can you honestly say that you are using blissey, the best all around special wall in the tier, JUST to take care of spectrier? Or that you are using toxic spikes just to counter spectrier? In general I'd say people expect to just take care of an opposing pokemon by sending in one of your dudes that counters it, but I'd say it's kinda nice to have to use combinations of moves and pokemon to handle different things, if those moves and pokemon can do other useful things outside of countering that pokemon.

Also it kinda needs to be said, sometimes spectrier will just clean house. It's a cleaner pokemon, it wouldnt suck if it couldn't do it. it can absolutely kill like 4-5 pokemon in a sweep and that's what you will remember, and not how your opponent got to this situation by chipping your resist, killing your special wall and checking for scarfers on your team as well as possibly keeping the field clear of tspikes,screens and other stuff that heavily hinders it.

That said, I do think the pokemon is very powerful and absolutely capable of some ridiculous feats, and that there is exists some variant of it that 6-0s any or almost any team, but for every variant that does that to your specific team, there are like 5 variants that don't, and can indeed feel very weak against what you specifically are running (like any choice set against ttar or blissey, or hell even urshifu or something like that). It's like everyone has that one traumatic experience with it that makes them imagine a monster spectrier coming in out of the gate with +1 spattack, a sub and 6 moveslots every game, and that is coloring their perception of it.

I will say that I'm writing this not as a way to say spectrier is weak or something, it's obviously not, but just as a person that doesn't like the idea of prematurely banning stuff, and instead leaving time to try to adapt to it, and only using bans as a far off last resort to things, and I might also be playing a bit of the devil's advocate here, which I like doing whenever people are starting to put attention to potential problems to offer a bit of a counterpoint, just for due consideration.
Sorry for the short one, I just need to say; The problem is Spectrier's checks have to get lucky which set they are running. The problem comes when you are facing it and you are unsure what set it is, so you have to guess what it is running. Most teams have 2 Spectrier checks at best, and being there as many sets as there are, you have to guess what set Spectrier is running. If you choose wrong, you are put in a huge disadvantage, even losing if it can snowball. Just because it can't beat every mon with one set doesn't say it is fair, look at Dracovish. Seismitoad was on most teams, yet it was banned. Spectrier forces the opponent to make a guess on what you are running, turning the game into pure chance.
 
I've always been a big sucker of sand
I just want to quickly bandwagon off of this to post a set that's a little bit cute, but still quite useful when you can pull it off - Weather Ball + Nasty Plot Tornadus-T in Sand. This allows you to, primarily, hit and kill Zapdos, that would otherwise wall you, with Weather Ball (Rock).

This allows Tornadus-T to more comfortably break teams that it otherwise could not, while also enabling Excadrill, which is also otherwise walled by Zapdos (unless you squeeze rock slide onto its set). Zapdos is quite decent right now, and serves as a very nice check to common variants of both Tornadus-T and Excadrill - this set essentially seeks to punish teams that rely on Zapdos in these match-ups by cleanly removing it, rather than trying to overwhelm it with Hurricane + Sand chip.

What moves and spread you use on Tornadus-T are entirely up to personal preference and the needs of the team; what is required however, are the moves Weather Ball and Nasty Plot, as well as 128SpA Ev's to guarantee the OHKO on max HP Zapdos at +2, if using Heavy Duty Boots over Life Orb. I favor boots myself, as the extra longevity is nice when you are often chipped by sand, but Life Orb does allow you to break Blissey & Chansey with Focus Blast much more easily if sand is not up.

Sample set:
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast / Knock Off / U-Turn / Defog
- Weather Ball
- Nasty Plot

The calculation for Weather Ball (Rock) vs Zapdos is provided here:

+2 128 SpA Tornadus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Sand: 384-452 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO .
 
:kyurem:
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 244 SpA / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost

Loved this guy in SM and it's back and better than ever. I've been playing around with dual Pressure core (with :Suicune:) after seeing someone mention it earlier in this thread and it's really good. Ice/Ground is nearly perfect neutral coverage as shown with Mamoswine, and Freeze Dry just makes it better.

Most standard balance's only check to it is Blissey or Clefable, and both are taken advantage of by the ever-splashable best mon in OU Heatran. Many teams have no switch ins and with HDBs Kyurem has insane longevity. In a pinch, it can also do some ridiculous feats with Pressure, like stall out eight or ten of Clefable's Moonblasts 1v1 in a pinch. EVs hit 404HP and speed to creep max speed Heatran.

I played my Suicune pretty poorly but here's an example replay vs standard offense that gets straight up 6-0'd by Kyurem as it comes in freely on Slowking and Subs up whenever it wants: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1231098018-76gruugd568ya5vl8kbv7cf3raf3fbppw
 
this is true in SM too; this was not caused by regieleki, lol.
to be fair, this isnt true at all in SM. you didnt really need a ground type like at all in SM, and I straight up didn't run one and go to the top of the ladder a few times. last gen this was caused or rather pushed solely by tapu koko --- which I have said on many occasions is broken. Ast0rga brings up a pretty good point that ive actually said in chat but no on forums and it's definitely worth looking into, because it actually was caused by the regi. that shit kos dragons from full. it's actually pretty ridiculous how constrained things are
 
Last edited:
I wanna talk about :Slowbro: and complex bans in general. I know this is a can of worms, but I do think it merits some more discussion, even after so long.

Firstly, TeleSight or FuturePort or whatever, it's dangerous when combined with a sweeper. I don't think any OU viable mon can tank Band-Urshifu-SS + FuturePort, and the combination is very spammable, as any Psychic resist is hit hard by both of Urshifu's stabs and power. FuturePort is also busted as it is a slow pivot, allowing fast HO pokemon to be brought in for free, as well as giving :Slowbro: free healing, ready to come out for another FuturePort combo.

I think we can all agree that :Urshifu: and the other mons this combo is used with, like :Melmetal: :Cinderace: :Pheromosa: :Magearna: , all of which are potentially ban-worthy, however, like Jordy said, all of them are fairly manageable with a good balance team.

We can all also agree that :Slowbro: normally is fine, he's a valuble check to many physical threats in the meta, and with Teleport, he's a great slow pivot that fills the role of a bulky water quite well.

FuturePort + Sweeper on the other hand, is ridiculous to deal with more than once, and there are more threats than just FuturePort in the meta.

This is where I have to go into uncharted territory, I think Complex Bans are fine and really should be implemented.

*BOOs from the Smogon Council*

Here me out, I have been a non-contributing member since the Gen 6 Lando-I ban, and I have seen many anti-Complex Ban arguments, most of which I feel aren't quite convincing.

Let me also iterate and reiterate the fact that this post/ramble is no attack or insult at any of the members of the Council, the main purpose of this post is to find an actually convincing argument against complex bans. If this gets actually considered, which it most likely won't, I'd be pretty happy

Let me address the most common ones:-

1. The slippery slope.​

I hate this fallacy with a burning passion, not cos of Smogon though, it makes no sense to me and I'll show why.​
The common answer that has the SS fallacy says that if we ban X combo of moves, what is stopping Y combo from being banned? What is stopping Z combo from being banned? They claim that there's nothing that stops people for clamoring for the next complex ban.​
Here's my response, the OU council has tried its best to be transparent and even though I don't agree with every decision they make (and I don't even have to), they have shown that they are very capable handling a community the size of OU. The recent SS OU survey further proves my point. The fact that Zaz-C is even being considered for a serious OU test speaks volumes to how much they are willing to accommodate, but also restrict at the same time.​
I sincerely believe that the majority of the player base is mature enough to understand that everything that they lose to isn't broken, equating that those players know the difference between a strong mon and an OP one, like :Landorus-Therian: in SM OU. I don't think any person in the top 500 or even 1000 thought seriously that Lando-T needs to be banned.​
Yes, there are the immature players who clamor for a :Toxapex: ban just cos Finchinator suggested it in IoA, but the council has shown that, outside of mild annoyance, they can handle them fairly well. I believe that they can discard those suggestions too.​
What does this mean? This means that the genuinely competitive members of the community and the council can easily discuss and limit how far a complex ban discussion goes.​
Here's an example​
Let's take :Cinderace: retest in IoA​
The council can make a list of options or "negotiations" to show the limits that they are willing to go for the bans​
  • Option 1 - No ban
  • Option 2 - Complex Ban: HDB + :Cinderace:
  • Option 3 - Complex Ban: U-Turn is not allowed on :Cinderace:
  • Option 4 - Full Ban
Of course this is an example, but it illustrates my point. You can keep a Mon in the tier, who normally would rock through the tier, in a neutered state to be a somewhat healthy presence in the meta.​
You could do the same with :Slowbro:
  • Option 1 - No Ban
  • Option 2 - Complex Ban: Teleport and Future Sight aren't allowed on the same set for :Slowbro:
  • Option 3 - Complex Ban: Teleport and Future Sight aren't allowed on the same set for any mon
  • Option 4 - Full Ban on Teleport
  • Option 5 - Full Ban on :Slowbro:

Option 5 isn't optimal as Slowbro is used to check so much, like :Blaziken: if this mon will ever be used. Option 1 wouldn't be too well appreciated by most people, as it really isn't too fun to play against. You are left with complex Bans, with varying levels of complexity. You will always leave someone disgruntled with either option, at least this system allows some compromise on all sides, which I believe is key for a healthy community.​
The Council can moderate the options to their wish here too, and the slippery slope doesn't come into play as long as the Council is united in their approach, which really shouldn't be too hard, you really can't have infighting while presiding over a community like this, especially when every sub-OU tier has to emulate it as well.​
The slippery slope just doesn't come into play, unless you take every suggestion seriously (I guess this also falls there too)​
2. It's too Complex for newer players​
Again, this just doesn't make too much sense either, Smogon is already complicated for many newer players, and it does take some time to get used to and Complex Bans don't help out much in this regard, many people that I know who joined Smogon were perplexed at the existence of tiers, clauses like Sleep, Baton and Evasion, as well as the fact that some abilities were just illegal, even though they were shown to be available, as well as different Pokemon forms and the fact that some mons have to be shiny to have a particular move.​
You could make a valid case that those examples aren't too egregious compared to Complex Bans, but most new people just go to AG and dick around with either an legendary team or the PIMPNITE team that they saw once, I don't think we are being too intimidating by adding some more Bans (with proper discourse and reasoning of course)​
Furthermore, the number of great guides of newer players has massively increased, BKC's and Finchinator's channels are the ones that come to my mind rn.​

3. Would it help much?​
Whenever people bring this argument, they bring up Aldaron's Proposal, which was extremely controversial and arguably useless.​
I'd argue that a lot has changed since Aldaron's, the Council and the Players have become more experienced overall, and I believe that there is a very large possibility that Complex Bans could help, as shown with the examples above.​
It frankly depends on the Complex Ban, and for that, I'd ask the following questions-​
  • Is the mon an unhealthy part of the meta? Or at the very least, does this mon have no genuine benefits for not being banned?
  • Does this mon constrict team building excessively?
  • Is there no one specific part of the mon which is broken?
If the answer to all of those questions is definitely yes, you are better off using a regular ban. If the answers are mixed, a complex ban might be the better option.​
Let's take :Genesect:
It was unhealthy, it constricted team building and there wasn't any thing about the mon that wasn't broken (Definitely yes to all three questions)​
Let's take :Slowbro:
It's unhealthy with just FuturePort, it isn't very constricting outside of that and the broken aspects of it is FuturePort in conjunction with sweepers. (The answers are mixed, and an OP part of the mon is easily identifiable, thus, a Complex Ban would be better than a straight up ban)​
There is an actual argument I found against complex bans, if the meta shifts enough, the threat would be easier to handle. I'll give an example of something that was ban-able, but later became easier to handle without any new movepool changes or introduction of new Pokémon added to the tier - :Altaria-Mega:
This thing was genuinely being considered as an Uber in early ORAS, yet it later became mediocre. In fact, it feels laughable to even consider it as a potential Uber, considering its middling performance last gen. If the Council were rash, impatient and only willing to hear just a select few people, they'd ban it ASAP. However, that is proven to be not the case at all.​
I feel this should be applied to Complex Bans too, who knows if fucking Flareon comes as a FuturePort counter later on​
I think FuturePort is something that needs to be looked at soon, it is very hard to handle and constricts teambuilding too much

Thank you for reading this, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I personally would like some complex bans, I truly believe that with proper care, they'd help the tier grow and become healthier
Edit: This post is stupid, disregard it, I'll go back to lurking and playing UU​
 
Last edited:
You can keep a Mon in the tier, who normally would rock through the tier, in a neutered state to be a sTagomewhat healthy presence in the meta.
And here's the point where the argument falls flat. The issue here (as I understand it) is that Smogon does not tier nerfed Pokémon except in very rare cases. (These being Arena Trap/Shadow Tag, Evasion, etc. As it was clear those were busted on anything) All tierings are based on the full potential of a mon, and if the council has the power to decide what a mon can do or not, what would the point of tiers even be?

Not to mention is is far easier to just ban Cinderace instead of arguing and wasting time on what exactly makes it busted (if ace ever was) when banning U-Turn on it might not even solve the problem.

One other problem is nerfing too much: if it was such a drastic nerf, the mon can loose viability to the point where it drops a tier. At that point, the mon uses the broken set in the tier below the one it was considered broken in.

This is the situation as I understand it.
 
I wanna talk about :Slowbro: and complex bans in general. I know this is a can of worms, but I do think it merits some more discussion, even after so long.

Firstly, TeleSight or FuturePort or whatever, it's dangerous when combined with a sweeper. I don't think any OU viable mon can tank Band-Urshifu-SS + FuturePort, and the combination is very spammable, as any Psychic resist is hit hard by both of Urshifu's stabs and power. FuturePort is also busted as it is a slow pivot, allowing fast HO pokemon to be brought in for free, as well as giving :Slowbro: free healing, ready to come out for another FuturePort combo.

I think we can all agree that :Urshifu: and the other mons this combo is used with, like :Melmetal: :Cinderace: :Pheromosa: :Magearna: , all of which are potentially ban-worthy, however, like Jordy said, all of them are fairly manageable with a good balance team.

We can all also agree that :Slowbro: normally is fine, he's a valuble check to many physical threats in the meta, and with Teleport, he's a great slow pivot that fills the role of a bulky water quite well.

FuturePort + Sweeper on the other hand, is ridiculous to deal with more than once, and there are more threats than just FuturePort in the meta.

This is where I have to go into uncharted territory, I think Complex Bans are fine and really should be implemented.

*BOOs from the Smogon Council*

Here me out, I have been a non-contributing member since the Gen 6 Lando-I ban, and I have seen many anti-Complex Ban arguments, most of which I feel aren't quite convincing.

Let me also iterate and reiterate the fact that this post/ramble is no attack or insult at any of the members of the Council, the main purpose of this post is to find an actually convincing argument against complex bans. If this gets actually considered, which it most likely won't, I'd be pretty happy

Let me address the most common ones:-

1. The slippery slope.​

I hate this fallacy with a burning passion, not cos of Smogon though, it makes no sense to me and I'll show why.​
The common answer that has the SS fallacy says that if we ban X combo of moves, what is stopping Y combo from being banned? What is stopping Z combo from being banned? They claim that there's nothing that stops people for clamoring for the next complex ban.​
Here's my response, the OU council has tried its best to be transparent and even though I don't agree with every decision they make (and I don't even have to), they have shown that they are very capable handling a community the size of OU. The recent SS OU survey further proves my point. The fact that Zaz-C is even being considered for a serious OU test speaks volumes to how much they are willing to accommodate, but also restrict at the same time.​
I sincerely believe that the majority of the player base is mature enough to understand that everything that they lose to isn't broken, equating that those players know the difference between a strong mon and an OP one, like :Landorus-Therian: in SM OU. I don't think any person in the top 500 or even 1000 thought seriously that Lando-T needs to be banned.​
Yes, there are the immature players who clamor for a :Toxapex: ban just cos Finchinator suggested it in IoA, but the council has shown that, outside of mild annoyance, they can handle them fairly well. I believe that they can discard those suggestions too.​
What does this mean? This means that the genuinely competitive members of the community and the council can easily discuss and limit how far a complex ban discussion goes.​
Here's an example​
Let's take :Cinderace: retest in IoA​
The council can make a list of options or "negotiations" to show the limits that they are willing to go for the bans​
  • Option 1 - No ban
  • Option 2 - Complex Ban: HDB + :Cinderace:
  • Option 3 - Complex Ban: U-Turn is not allowed on :Cinderace:
  • Option 4 - Full Ban
Of course this is an example, but it illustrates my point. You can keep a Mon in the tier, who normally would rock through the tier, in a neutered state to be a somewhat healthy presence in the meta.​
You could do the same with :Slowbro:
  • Option 1 - No Ban
  • Option 2 - Complex Ban: Teleport and Future Sight aren't allowed on the same set for :Slowbro:
  • Option 3 - Complex Ban: Teleport and Future Sight aren't allowed on the same set for any mon
  • Option 4 - Full Ban on Teleport
  • Option 5 - Full Ban on :Slowbro:

Option 5 isn't optimal as Slowbro is used to check so much, like :Blaziken: if this mon will ever be used. Option 1 wouldn't be too well appreciated by most people, as it really isn't too fun to play against. You are left with complex Bans, with varying levels of complexity. You will always leave someone disgruntled with either option, at least this system allows some compromise on all sides, which I believe is key for a healthy community.​
The Council can moderate the options to their wish here too, and the slippery slope doesn't come into play as long as the Council is united in their approach, which really shouldn't be too hard, you really can't have infighting while presiding over a community like this, especially when every sub-OU tier has to emulate it as well.​
The slippery slope just doesn't come into play, unless you take every suggestion seriously (I guess this also falls there too)​
2. It's too Complex for newer players​
Again, this just doesn't make too much sense either, Smogon is already complicated for many newer players, and it does take some time to get used to and Complex Bans don't help out much in this regard, many people that I know who joined Smogon were perplexed at the existence of tiers, clauses like Sleep, Baton and Evasion, as well as the fact that some abilities were just illegal, even though they were shown to be available, as well as different Pokemon forms and the fact that some mons have to be shiny to have a particular move.​
You could make a valid case that those examples aren't too egregious compared to Complex Bans, but most new people just go to AG and dick around with either an legendary team or the PIMPNITE team that they saw once, I don't think we are being too intimidating by adding some more Bans (with proper discourse and reasoning of course)​
Furthermore, the number of great guides of newer players has massively increased, BKC's and Finchinator's channels are the ones that come to my mind rn.​

3. Would it help much?​
Whenever people bring this argument, they bring up Aldaron's Proposal, which was extremely controversial and arguably useless.​
I'd argue that a lot has changed since Aldaron's, the Council and the Players have become more experienced overall, and I believe that there is a very large possibility that Complex Bans could help, as shown with the examples above.​
It frankly depends on the Complex Ban, and for that, I'd ask the following questions-​
  • Is the mon an unhealthy part of the meta? Or at the very least, does this mon have no genuine benefits for not being banned?
  • Does this mon constrict team building excessively?
  • Is there no one specific part of the mon which is broken?
If the answer to all of those questions is definitely yes, you are better off using a regular ban. If the answers are mixed, a complex ban might be the better option.​
Let's take :Genesect:
It was unhealthy, it constricted team building and there wasn't any thing about the mon that wasn't broken (Definitely yes to all three questions)​
Let's take :Slowbro:
It's unhealthy with just FuturePort, it isn't very constricting outside of that and the broken aspects of it is FuturePort in conjunction with sweepers. (The answers are mixed, and an OP part of the mon is easily identifiable, thus, a Complex Ban would be better than a straight up ban)​
There is an actual argument I found against complex bans, if the meta shifts enough, the threat would be easier to handle. I'll give an example of something that was ban-able, but later became easier to handle without any new movepool changes or introduction of new Pokémon added to the tier - :Altaria-Mega:
This thing was genuinely being considered as an Uber in early ORAS, yet it later became mediocre. In fact, it feels laughable to even consider it as a potential Uber, considering its middling performance last gen. If the Council were rash, impatient and only willing to hear just a select few people, they'd ban it ASAP. However, that is proven to be not the case at all.​
I feel this should be applied to Complex Bans too, who knows if fucking Flareon comes as a FuturePort counter later on​
I think FuturePort is something that needs to be looked at soon, it is very hard to handle and constricts teambuilding too much

Thank you for reading this, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I personally would like some complex bans, I truly believe that with proper care, they'd help the tier grow and become healthier
The issue with Complex bans is that they make banlists useless because you can basically make every uber mon balanced by just neutering them.For example
is basically balanced for OU as long as you ban water moves from it.Smogon wants to balance tiers by just simply banning pokemon instead of nerfing them to make them adequate for a tier,and if complex bans are used all the time then that means NOTHING in the metagame is broken
 
Last edited:
That's true. If anything, I'd suggest just ban future sight. That's the only thing that makes Slowbro an incredible pain in the ass. That isn't a too complex ban at all since the move single handedly puts a lot of pressure when used. Complex bans would probably just cause some random arguments like you said like why ban that and not this but just banning one move is a lot easier. They did it with baton pass since it is incredibly overpowered when speed boost is passed into a slow wall breaker. Without future sight, Slowbro would just be the same old where it walls stuff like ground types only this time, it can be a good scout with teleport
 
And here's the point where the argument falls flat. The issue here (as I understand it) is that Smogon does not tier nerfed Pokémon except in very rare cases. (These being Arena Trap/Shadow Tag, Evasion, etc. As it was clear those were busted on anything) All tierings are based on the full potential of a mon, and if the council has the power to decide what a mon can do or not, what would the point of tiers even be?

Not to mention is is far easier to just ban Cinderace instead of arguing and wasting time on what exactly makes it busted (if ace ever was) when banning U-Turn on it might not even solve the problem.

One other problem is nerfing too much: if it was such a drastic nerf, the mon can loose viability to the point where it drops a tier. At that point, the mon uses the broken set in the tier below the one it was considered broken in.

This is the situation as I understand it.
Thanks for the reply, yeah, I understand the problems with it, especially the time related ones

Should I delete it?
 
The issue with Complex bans is that they make banlists useless because you can basically make every uber mon balanced by just neutering them.For example
is basically balanced for OU as long as you ban water moves from it.Smogan wants to balance tiers by just simply banning pokemon instead of nerfing them to make them adequate for a tier,and if complex bans are used all the time then that means NOTHING in the metagame is broken
Thanks for the reply

That makes a lot of sense, I knew it was a rather stupid post
 

AM

GMT-4
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Slowbro is good but there’s a lot of overhype with it as to what it offers by itself and mentions of it being great brush under the rug that breakers / sweepers are primarily the issue under the guise of we can handle them fine and that slowbro is what makes them the issue when its the former. Its a status prone mon that uses a bunch of telegraphed plays to function, furthers the weakness to a variety of set up sweepers and mons such as ursh and spectrier, knock off prone, and it’s mentioned like Future Sight just ohkos everything and thats if you’re even able to pull it off well. The move is actually very matchup dependent certain builds wont like it and others can just brush it off without a care. It also works on certain builds you can’t even plop it on everything without considering the above as opposed to something more splashable like Ursh or Lando-T. It has great defensive utility but even with Future Sight in play its still very passive in a largely offensive meta.
 
That's true. If anything, I'd suggest just ban future sight. That's the only thing that makes Slowbro an incredible pain in the ass. That isn't a too complex ban at all since the move single handedly puts a lot of pressure when used. Complex bans would probably just cause some random arguments like you said like why ban that and not this but just banning one move is a lot easier. They did it with baton pass since it is incredibly overpowered when speed boost is passed into a slow wall breaker. Without future sight, Slowbro would just be the same old where it walls stuff like ground types only this time, it can be a good scout with teleport
Future Sight isn’t a problem on the vast majority of the Pokemon that get it. Why should Slowbro take it away from everyone? It’s the combo of Teleport+Future Sight+Regenerator (which Slowbro is the best at). If it is such a problem then Slowbro or the breakers are the ones that should be examined.
 
That's true. If anything, I'd suggest just ban future sight. That's the only thing that makes Slowbro an incredible pain in the ass. That isn't a too complex ban at all since the move single handedly puts a lot of pressure when used. Complex bans would probably just cause some random arguments like you said like why ban that and not this but just banning one move is a lot easier. They did it with baton pass since it is incredibly overpowered when speed boost is passed into a slow wall breaker. Without future sight, Slowbro would just be the same old where it walls stuff like ground types only this time, it can be a good scout with teleport
Future Sight should not be banned as a move. It's not broken on it's own. It is actually a healthy good move that allows teams to force progress against fat. What is being discussed is Future Sight combined with Teleport. I'm not even sure if it's broken on Slowbro but leaning towards no. Urshifu is already unwallable if it runs the right moves. Future Sight does make prediction easier if your hitters are choice locked I guess. I've never felt like I needed Future Sight Slowbro on my teams. In fact I only use Future Sight when I use Slowbro because it's a move that Slowbro gets. I don't use Slowbro because of Future Sight but because it blanket checks a lot of Pokemon and has Regenerator to stay alive trough out the game. The argument that it makes Pokemon unwallable falls flat to me. A lot of Pokemon can become unwallable if it runs the right moveset/Item. Here's just some of them.

Urshifu with Poison Jab and Aerial Ace
Victini with Glaciate, Scorching Sands + V-Create and Bolt Strike.
Pheromosa QD with Shock Wave or Drill Run on Physical sets.
Tapu Lele with LO. Lele is so strong, people usually have to play around it and hope it's choiced in order to force it out. LO fixes this and if you want the full power of Specs just run Modest.
Nidoking with Superpower
Garchomp with Dragon/Fire/Ground coverage.
Dracozolt with Electric/Meteor/Fire Blast

So yeah you definitely don't need Future Sight and it is NOT the reason people use Slowbro. It's more of a bonus thing.
 

Perish Song

Rampage
is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Any post defending "complex bans should be a thing again" is simply misinformed and/or can't see the whole thing from a larger perspective, on why we don't do them anymore.

Let's take :Cinderace: retest in IoAThe council can make a list of options or "negotiations" to show the limits that they are willing to go for the bans
  • Option 1 - No ban
  • Option 2 - Complex Ban: HDB + :Cinderace:
  • Option 3 - Complex Ban: U-Turn is not allowed on :Cinderace:
  • Option 4 - Full Ban
Of course this is an example, but it illustrates my point. You can keep a Mon in the tier, who normally would rock through the tier, in a neutered state to be a somewhat healthy presence in the meta.
You have to realize this goes both ways. Just like you implement it to Cinderace, Libero, or literally anything that well maybe restrictive in the OU meta let's say, I can claim that Arceus would be balanced if we ban all moves with above 90 BP, or Darkrai would be balanced if we ban Nasty Plot from it. This situation itself is what's causing the slippery slope, as implementing this on a larger scale means you are no longer playing a defined metagame, you are playing a ban list. Moreover, there are no limits on what you can restrict so doing this with a stabilized control is not actually possible while also allowing the metagame to adapt in itself. The result would be constant chaos and there always will be someone unhappy with a complex ban.

2. It's too Complex for newer playersAgain, this just doesn't make too much sense either, Smogon is already complicated for many newer players, and it does take some time to get used to and Complex Bans don't help out much in this regard, many people that I know who joined Smogon were perplexed at the existence of tiers, clauses like Sleep, Baton and Evasion, as well as the fact that some abilities were just illegal, even though they were shown to be available, as well as different Pokemon forms and the fact that some mons have to be shiny to have a particular move. You could make a valid case that those examples aren't too egregious compared to Complex Bans, but most new people just go to AG and dick around with either an legendary team or the PIMPNITE team that they saw once, I don't think we are being too intimidating by adding some more Bans (with proper discourse and reasoning of course)Furthermore, the number of great guides of newer players has massively increased, BKC's and Finchinator's channels are the ones that come to my mind rn.
Many would argue it is the other way around. Keeping the ban list simple means less confused players, everything is defined as short and sweet. Trying to learn a complex ban list is much more difficult, and AG wouldn't make a good example here as it's a tier without any rules.

Whenever people bring this argument, they bring up Aldaron's Proposal, which was extremely controversial and arguably useless.I'd argue that a lot has changed since Aldaron's, the Council and the Players have become more experienced overall, and I believe that there is a very large possibility that Complex Bans could help, as shown with the examples above.It frankly depends on the Complex Ban, and for that, I'd ask the following questions-
  • Is the mon an unhealthy part of the meta? Or at the very least, does this mon have no genuine benefits for not being banned?
  • Does this mon constrict team building excessively?
  • Is there no one specific part of the mon which is broken?
If the answer to all of those questions is definitely yes, you are better off using a regular ban. If the answers are mixed, a complex ban might be the better option.
Suggesting complex ban tiering with these 3 questions will cause more slippery slopes, nothing more. The first 2 questions are fine as these are questions you can ask yourself when you try to determine if something is worthy of a ban or not, but the third question involves a great risk. The reason is we evaluate Pokemon as a whole. One element that pushes one Pokemon over the edge may not have the same impact on other Pokemon who share this trait, possibly the best example would be Speed Boost Blaziken with other Speed Boost Pokemon in previous generations. Speed Boost was obviously not broken on Pokemon like Scolipede and Yanmega, and what made Blaziken broken was a mixture of its qualities, not just Speed Boost alone. I already explained why slippery slopes are bad and we don't do complex tiering in q1, so not keeping this long.
 
Any post defending "complex bans should be a thing again" is simply misinformed and/or can't see the whole thing from a larger perspective, on why we don't do them anymore.



You have to realize this goes both ways. Just like you implement it to Cinderace, Libero, or literally anything that well maybe restrictive in the OU meta let's say, I can claim that Arceus would be balanced if we ban all moves with above 90 BP, or Darkrai would be balanced if we ban Nasty Plot from it. This situation itself is what's causing the slippery slope, as implementing this on a larger scale means you are no longer playing a defined metagame, you are playing a ban list. Moreover, there are no limits on what you can restrict so doing this with a stabilized control is not actually possible while also allowing the metagame to adapt in itself. The result would be constant chaos and there always will be someone unhappy with a complex ban.



Many would argue it is the other way around. Keeping the ban list simple means less confused players, everything is defined as short and sweet. Trying to learn a complex ban list is much more difficult, and AG wouldn't make a good example here as it's a tier without any rules.



Suggesting complex ban tiering with these 3 questions will cause more slippery slopes, nothing more. The first 2 questions are fine as these are questions you can ask yourself when you try to determine if something is worthy of a ban or not, but the third question involves a great risk. The reason is we evaluate Pokemon as a whole. One element that pushes one Pokemon over the edge may not have the same impact on other Pokemon who share this trait, possibly the best example would be Speed Boost Blaziken with other Speed Boost Pokemon in previous generations. Speed Boost was obviously not broken on Pokemon like Scolipede and Yanmega, and what made Blaziken broken was a mixture of its qualities, not just Speed Boost alone. I already explained why slippery slopes are bad and we don't do complex tiering in q1, so not keeping this long.

Thanks for the in-depth reasoning why complex bans are bad/not worth it

Yeah, I guess I see the slippery slope there, and moreover, I achieved my main goal of the post, seeing other views of it

Gosh, I'm stupid
 
I don't think teleport is the main reason the future sight is seeing so much use this gen compared to previous metas. Teleport is obviously very synergistic, but so is u-turn, and that move combo was niche at best. I think the main reason future sight has picked up in usage so much is because hazards are the worst they've ever been, which forces us to find other ways to chip mons switching in. HDB are obviously the reason for this and I don't think they're ban worthy, it's just how offense is adapting to the entry hazard nerf.
 
I still maintain future sight is the problem. The problem with future sight is that it forces steels, darks and Blissey to come in otherwise the future sight will severely endanger something. I never mentioned Slowbro is the problem and it's a no brainer that many pokemon become incredibly difficult to wall with the right moveset. I also specifically mentioned that no future sight Slowbro would just be old Slowbro except it can be a pivot. The problem I mentioned about luring those three pokemon is that it can easily be taken advantage of by sending a fighting type out, which would force out all those three and the fighting type in question would hit something really hard which would then be finished off by the future sight

N1ght123 If Slowbro specifically with future sight gets banned, then people could just use its twin as the future sight user and have another pokemon be the physical wall, which ou is abundant with since there are a lot of birds to choose from, three of which are very good physical walls if they don't get their boots knocked off

Spyro you mentioned that future sight is a bonus thing. I don't disagree with this as the main reason Slowbro is ever used is because it can check ground types by not instantly dying to a swords danced earthquake from Landorus and Garchomp and threatening them with burns. It just got teleport to make using it easier. Your argument only proves my point that future sight is the problem as it is just a knife that Slowbro can add to its belt it if it wants to, the keyword is 'want' as it can forgo it if it doesn't care about that
 
I still maintain future sight is the problem. The problem with future sight is that it forces steels, darks and Blissey to come in otherwise the future sight will severely endanger something. I never mentioned Slowbro is the problem and it's a no brainer that many pokemon become incredibly difficult to wall with the right moveset. I also specifically mentioned that no future sight Slowbro would just be old Slowbro except it can be a pivot. The problem I mentioned about luring those three pokemon is that it can easily be taken advantage of by sending a fighting type out, which would force out all those three and the fighting type in question would hit something really hard which would then be finished off by the future sight

N1ght123 If Slowbro specifically with future sight gets banned, then people could just use its twin as the future sight user and have another pokemon be the physical wall, which ou is abundant with since there are a lot of birds to choose from, three of which are very good physical walls if they don't get their boots knocked off

Spyro you mentioned that future sight is a bonus thing. I don't disagree with this as the main reason Slowbro is ever used is because it can check ground types by not instantly dying to a swords danced earthquake from Landorus and Garchomp and threatening them with burns. It just got teleport to make using it easier. Your argument only proves my point that future sight is the problem as it is just a knife that Slowbro can add to its belt it if it wants to, the keyword is 'want' as it can forgo it if it doesn't care about that
I disagree with the notion of banning future sight. Smogon has rarely banned moves, only being baton pass and aurora veil in the lower tiers like NU or PU. For a move to be broken, it has to show that it makes MULTIPLE Pokémon overbearing with it. If only 1-2 Pokémon are problematic with future sight, then the Pokémon can go, but if lots of them can prove to be problematic like with baton pass, than the move can go. For both future sight and teleport, the slow twins and more particularly slowbro have shown to be the only problematic abusers of these moves. No other mon with future sight or teleport has shown to be broken at this stage, therefore it’s not the moves and instead the Pokémon. This isn’t me advocating for a slowbro ban, I actually don’t think it’s ban worthy for now in this current state, but it’s important to clear up misconceptions when it comes to banning moves versus Pokémon. If I said something wrong somebody can correct me but I think this is what is usually used by the side that disagrees with you. Also, I find it ironic how people are considering banning up to 4 Pokémon (pheromosa, cinderace, Urshifu, Melmetal) just to preserve slowbro. I’d rather we ban 1 mon than 4 in this case, and it’s very hard to find solid reasoning to disagree for this part.
 
Any post defending "complex bans should be a thing again" is simply misinformed and/or can't see the whole thing from a larger perspective, on why we don't do them anymore.



You have to realize this goes both ways. Just like you implement it to Cinderace, Libero, or literally anything that well maybe restrictive in the OU meta let's say, I can claim that Arceus would be balanced if we ban all moves with above 90 BP, or Darkrai would be balanced if we ban Nasty Plot from it. This situation itself is what's causing the slippery slope, as implementing this on a larger scale means you are no longer playing a defined metagame, you are playing a ban list. Moreover, there are no limits on what you can restrict so doing this with a stabilized control is not actually possible while also allowing the metagame to adapt in itself. The result would be constant chaos and there always will be someone unhappy with a complex ban.



Many would argue it is the other way around. Keeping the ban list simple means less confused players, everything is defined as short and sweet. Trying to learn a complex ban list is much more difficult, and AG wouldn't make a good example here as it's a tier without any rules.



Suggesting complex ban tiering with these 3 questions will cause more slippery slopes, nothing more. The first 2 questions are fine as these are questions you can ask yourself when you try to determine if something is worthy of a ban or not, but the third question involves a great risk. The reason is we evaluate Pokemon as a whole. One element that pushes one Pokemon over the edge may not have the same impact on other Pokemon who share this trait, possibly the best example would be Speed Boost Blaziken with other Speed Boost Pokemon in previous generations. Speed Boost was obviously not broken on Pokemon like Scolipede and Yanmega, and what made Blaziken broken was a mixture of its qualities, not just Speed Boost alone. I already explained why slippery slopes are bad and we don't do complex tiering in q1, so not keeping this long.
What about a combination of factors that are ban worthy? I'd argue that regenerator + boots + pivoting move is pretty borderline, as its risk reward ratio is rediculous. Many pokemon have access to this, both offensive and defensive. If we couldn't complex ban, what part would be banned? All three components are fine on there own, but they stack together into something potentially broken, so banning one portion of it would affect nearly every single tier, which we probably don't want.

If this is is the wrong place for this, feel free to move or delete the post, just wanted to get my thoughts on this out there
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 6, Guests: 2)

Top